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BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?

Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 21 - 11:12 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Mar 21 - 10:02 AM
Mrrzy 15 Mar 21 - 08:55 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Mar 21 - 05:46 AM
Helen 15 Mar 21 - 12:29 AM
robomatic 14 Mar 21 - 08:47 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 21 - 07:35 PM
Helen 14 Mar 21 - 06:14 PM
Doug Chadwick 14 Mar 21 - 04:35 PM
Helen 14 Mar 21 - 03:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 21 - 03:18 PM
Helen 14 Mar 21 - 01:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 21 - 12:24 PM
Jeri 14 Mar 21 - 11:21 AM
Jos 14 Mar 21 - 05:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 21 - 04:47 AM
Helen 14 Mar 21 - 12:42 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 21 - 07:19 PM
Helen 13 Mar 21 - 06:17 PM
Mrrzy 13 Mar 21 - 06:07 PM
Jack Campin 07 Mar 21 - 05:54 AM
Mrrzy 06 Mar 21 - 05:21 PM
Jeri 06 Mar 21 - 10:12 AM
Jack Campin 06 Mar 21 - 09:27 AM
Mrrzy 06 Mar 21 - 07:43 AM
mg 05 Mar 21 - 11:18 PM
Jeri 05 Mar 21 - 06:09 PM
Mrrzy 05 Mar 21 - 05:04 PM
Jack Campin 05 Mar 21 - 09:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Mar 21 - 09:39 AM
Mrrzy 05 Mar 21 - 09:00 AM
Mrrzy 04 Mar 21 - 09:29 PM
Jack Campin 04 Mar 21 - 08:24 PM
Jos 03 Mar 21 - 10:55 AM
Jeri 03 Mar 21 - 10:52 AM
Jos 03 Mar 21 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 21 - 10:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Mar 21 - 09:17 AM
Mrrzy 03 Mar 21 - 07:44 AM
Jack Campin 02 Mar 21 - 08:47 PM
Mrrzy 02 Mar 21 - 08:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Mar 21 - 08:21 PM
robomatic 02 Mar 21 - 07:27 PM
meself 02 Mar 21 - 01:43 PM
Jack Campin 02 Mar 21 - 03:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Mar 21 - 02:37 AM
keberoxu 01 Mar 21 - 07:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Mar 21 - 12:18 PM
Jeri 01 Mar 21 - 12:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Mar 21 - 11:03 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 11:12 AM

There is no single diet that suits everyone. I tried alsorts, including Atkins and fasting, with little or no sucess. The only thing that does it for me is watching what I put in and doing more. WW has worked well for me. I accept it is a lifestyle thing and not a temporary fix. The interesting thing I find with WW is that I count points rather than calories. Their phrase 'not all calories are equal' rings very true with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 10:02 AM

eat as much as you want to *of*

But very often I don't actually want it. I eat it because it's there. I don't need anything with a cup of tea or coffee but if the biscuit barrel is on the table then ...

Or, I'll raid the fridge each time I pass through the kitchen. I don't need to be hungry to take a nibble of cheese; a couple of prawns; a spoonful of coleslaw; - not much on their own but they all add up. The best cure for that is keeping busy so that I don't have time to graze.

Another thing is being a human dustbin. If something is getting near its use-by date, I will eat it up rather than throw it away. If I have made a meal with two reasonable portions but my wife only takes a small portion, then I will finish off what is left in the bowl.

The problem with fad diets is that when they come to an end, I go back to eating as before and pile the pounds back on. Educating my stomach to expect less seems a better way of making a change in lifestyle.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 08:55 AM

Portion control is by far the worst cocept for weight loss. Guaranteed to leave you wanting more. Far, far better to eat as much as you want, but select what you eat as much as you want to *of* [sorry, English, for mangling you].

Out of ketosis from a week of bday feasting including a bite of dessert most days, a coupla slices of bread or a mouthful of rice, here and there. Not gone nuts, though! So maybe my equanimity has gotten stronger. Might test it by having actual pasta. Might not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 05:46 AM

The studies I've seen appear to show that most people don't lash out on the unhealthy stuff on non-fast days

Not true for everyone! I have tried every diet going, including 5:2. I start off being very good and lose weight as expected. Then slowly, slowly, my "eat what you want on the non-fast days" increases until I am undoing all the good work of the fast day. My mind then becomes fixated on how to stop this - even to the point of changing 5:2 to 4:3 (which I have done at sometime). Fixation is a big problem. What happens if your fast day coincides with a special occasion where you know you will be eating. Do you skip it? Bring it forward? Shift the whole cycle back one day? Add an extra fast day to compensate? It's not long before your diet is occupying all your thoughts.

..... it's not a long dreary slog with no end in sight.

The amount of weight I need to lose means that it is, inevitably, a long dreary slog with moments of despair when I plateau out for a week or more, before restarting the weight loss. There is no end in sight. I have lost 3 stone many times, only to put 3 stone 2 pounds back on again. My weight has followed a saw-tooth upward trend. I am now on the way down again but, this time, even losing 3 stone will leave me overweight. I know I can win the battle but, inevitably, I will lose the war.

I eat very little processed food, rarely have take-aways, drink only moderately and my taste for sweet things has decreased over the years. I eat a well balanced diet - I just eat too much. In my effort to get my five-a-day, I can demolish the fruit bowl. Eating too much meat means that I have to eat too much dessert to maintain the balance. My biggest problem is comfort eating through boredom

Steve has it right, upthread. Exercise, portion control and avoiding snacking are better than fad diets.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 12:29 AM

Hi robomatic, I'd probably have to re-read my 5:2 fast diet book to see if it mentions the influence - or not - on metabolic rate but I just did a quick search and found this short article.

Fast 5:2 Diet Evidence


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 08:47 PM

Is there anything written regarding the issue of setting an inner weight or metabolic rate via the intermittent fast diet?

impunity pronounced im-pyu'-nitty at my place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 07:35 PM

His objective wasn't necessarily to make the book of records on long life, but to live a healthy normal-span life while reducing the problems of things like cholesterol or blood pressure, that there are some things that respond very favorably to intermittent fasting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 06:14 PM

Which is why fasting a couple of days a week is a good idea because it's not a long dreary slog with no end in sight. One day on low calories, eat what you want on the non-fast days, then one more non-consecutive fast day in the week. The studies I've seen appear to show that most people don't lash out on the unhealthy stuff on non-fast days, possibly because they can see that they are making progress with the fast days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:35 PM

Eat, Fast, and Live Longer

Many diets claim to help you live longer. Most, if any at all, don't but, my God, they certainly make life dreary enough to seem like it!

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 03:51 PM

Yep. Sorry. I didn't explain that properly. I first heard about the fasting diets when I watched the Eat, Fast, and Live Longer documentary and found the 5:2 diet book just after that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 03:18 PM

I posted a link to the first Mosley video. He went on to write a book that modified it to the 5:2 pattern.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 01:58 PM

Maggie, my Hubby & I started doing the 5:2 fasting diet a few years ago and it worked for us. Five days a week of normal eating and two days of low calorie eating. We heard about it on a documentary by Dr Michael Mosley who looks at the science of all sorts of health issues in his TV shows.

The Beginner's Guide to the 5:2 Diet

We both lost weight and kept it off fairly well over the years. It becomes automatic to just cut back on calories as and when needed, after we adjusted to the routine, i.e. we only eat when we are hungry, not because the clock says it's meal time.

As for cold weather, we live in balmy east coast Oz, so what we call cold weather here wouldn't even rate a mention in your area, I expect. But in winter we tended to make soups or stews with lots of veges and legumes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 12:24 PM

Eat, Fast, and Live Longer looks at a variety of medically supervised diets. The goal is to decrease risk for various things. In the past I've used the alternate day fasting successfully, though over time the weight I lost came back - but the bum knee was fixed right at the beginning of COVID so my mobility is restored, which is a huge help). I was doing it primarily to reduce cholesterol with the side benefit of losing a few pounds. Probably a "stone" for the UK crowd.

Successful alternate-day fasting tends to be seasonal - I wouldn't do it year round. Fasting in cold weather is difficult when your body naturally is trying to hold onto calories to keep you warm. A veterinarian friend made that observation that seems to be true, though wasn't discussed in the hour-long documentary. Lose weight in warmer weather and just try to maintain the level during cold weather.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 11:21 AM

Somewhere, I had crackers that were 100% cheese. I think the cheese - parmesan, believe - was just shredded and fried or baked. They were great.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 05:43 AM

"imp-you-nitty" (unless you are from Norfolk or that region, when it's "im-poo-nitty", I think - maybe Eliza can confirm ...).


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:47 AM

Did you have a nice break, Helen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 12:42 AM

Is it pronounced im-poo-nitty or imp-you-nitty? I guess you can get away with it either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 07:19 PM

Heheh...

Oops....


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 06:17 PM

Mrrzy, I was thinking about your cheese and crackers problem - in the new recipe thread.

I used to buy some really nice crackers from the Aldi supermarket. They were made from chia seeds and a few other seeds. Not much white carbs but a big variety of other good stuff. I kept a packet in my drawer at work to snack on. There is info and a pic of the packet here:

2 Grain & 4 Seed Crackers

The only negative I had with them is that they are very hard to bite so I used to break them into smaller pieces.

They were yummy. I'll have to get some more.

I'm not sure what the carb component would be so they might not fit your required nutrition list, but I was also thinking that you could make some yourself using processed almonds instead of wheat flour. Almonds processed to a crumb stage in the food processor is my go-to substitute for wheat flour and I use it in some of my favourite recipes. I can eat wheat flour, gluten etc but if I am cooking for friends who can't it's a gift from heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 06:07 PM

Ok so this week I celebrated my new decade with small groups, which meant going out to lunch and dinner almost every day, plus why not smoked dope all day instead of just at night. Did not lose weight. Aha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 05:54 AM

The four day period is a starting point - long enough to avoid restimulating immune responses, but establishing ketosis might take longer. You'd need to experiment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 05:21 PM

I think that may be where I head, Jack Campin, but then that makes every day-after-that-4th day a crazy day... Hmmm. Thanks, y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 10:12 AM

It's 200-ish calories a day. Find something you'd like to snack on.
My problem with weight loss (and probably a lot of people's) is that once I lose the weight, I start eating normally. "Normally" meaning I eat what I used to eat to gain the weight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 09:27 AM

Rotation diet? Make every fourth day a carb day? Works for many kinds of food intolerance


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 07:43 AM

Yeah, my numbers are good and I feel great but I want to maintain my weight and I am not. Despite eating a lot. I am now down about 2 stone in about 14 months, or about 2 pounds a month for that long. Not all steady-like, but on average from the total.

I did not mean Temporary Weightloss as in You put it all back on after. I meant temporary diet FOR weight loss and after, you go back to eating in a way that you stop losing weight.

If I could figure out how to eat this way and not lose weight, I think I could stave off medication for longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 11:18 PM

keto is not for temporary weight loss. if you don't lose weight and you feel lousy, find another eating plan. if you lose weight and your numbers at the doctor are great and you feel wonderful and you have more stamina and energy..then you probably need to eat a version of this..adapting to your own metabolism..forever. we all have a limit of how many carbs we can eat and maintain a good weight. mine is very very low and i am not active enough. if you ski every day you can eat more. if your ancestors are from one group of people and were very healthy you could probably eat what they ate..lots of fish perhaps..or lots of fruit perhaps. problem is by now most of us are quite mixed genetically so we generally don't know. i would start with getting my insulin..along with blood sugar..but insist on insulin..checked. some people need fish oils because they don't produce the right fatty acids..ancestors probably ate a lot of fish so they did not need to produce acids themselves. if you need certain fatty acids and don't produce them or eat them...you can very well have brain imbalances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 06:09 PM

"Our gloriously traditional British v sign" - you mean the backwards "peace" sign? I know how to say it in Hangul (Korean), too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 05:04 PM

Hmmm. Good to hear it might be possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 09:52 AM

I know one person on it for psychiatric/neurological reasons who's likely to stay on it very long term.   Regressive autism with regular grand mal fits starting at age 7. His mother is a doctor and tried everything. The keto diet helped a lot with the fits but not much with the autism. She tried something else - I forget what - which did make a difference (I haven't seen him since before). Meanwhile the kid is on a very complicated dietary regimen he doesn't have a prayer of ever understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 09:39 AM

It's good for a change, a yank swearing like a Brit..

To be commended and encouraged...

All too often it's Brits being over Americanized in their vulgar vocabulary and finger gestures..

"Bugger" is a beautifully expressive traditional multi-purpose utility swear word...

Now if only we can get the yanks to start adopting our gloriously traditional British v sign...


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 09:00 AM

It is not looking as if keto *can* be a lifestyle choice. Bugger. It really is only a temporary, weightloss, thing. There does not appear to be a way to maintain weight, pH, bone density etc while not consuming carbs.

Bugger all. I am going to have to use medication, I fear, eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 09:29 PM

Hilarious!


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 08:24 PM

This just in...

Keto crotch


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:55 AM

He was probably posting to the Recipe thread, which seems to have got in here by mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:52 AM

Did I just see Steve? (insert winky-face here)

Oh look - a Wookey Hole Website (As a cheeseaholic, I'm tempted.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:17 AM

Not that Wookey Hole is in Cheddar. Do they store cheese in Cheddar's Cox's or Gough's caves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:03 AM

That's right. Wookey Hole caves have a lot to answer for. I always have a large stash of that cheese just in case we get snowed in.

Oops... not supposed to be here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 09:17 AM

When I was most self-disciplined following a gym weight training diet,
the only cheese I was allowed was cottage cheese.
Which I had to eat on a daily basis for protein.

Possibly one of the next most boring foods to tofu...

I grew up not too far from Cheddar in Somerset.
From infancy cheddar has been been a staple diet necessity and a flavour my wellbeing depends on.

Cheddar dealers hook us young,
and no amount of rehab can break this lifelong addiction...


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 07:44 AM

Seizures are neuro- but not psychological, but yeah, keto was developed for epilepsy. My shrink says there may(!) be beginning(!) to be evidence for bipolar, and it does help *me*...

But just gluten-free diet does not. That is, I get the same lability from rice, potatoes, anything starchy.

However I don't know if keto is going to be a good *lifestyle* choice, ie, permanent way of eating. I have a feeling ketosis is not where one wants to be forever.

On the other hand, I gave up cheese for weight control long ago, maybe I could welcome it back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 08:47 PM

This thread started out focused on psychiatric results, not weight loss. Keto seems to work for one psychiatric problem - seizures - and not definitely for anything else.

But other kinds of diet DO work, for specific (and not very common) conditions - and they are both easy to confuse with keto and quite a bit easier to manage, with fewer risks. A keto diet will probably eliminate gluten and greatly reduce fructose intake - both of those have well known psychiatric effects for SOME people. But it's way easier to manage a gluten-free (or gluten- and casein-free) diet than it is a keto one, and the harmful effects are zero (most of humanity has stuck to a gf/cf diet for most of human history and we're still here). Allowing a much wider range of foods makes it way easier to avoid nutrient deficiencies and lead a normal life.

There are a lot of other dietary results you will incidentally get from a keto diet that don't actually need such a drastic regimen. So it's worth trying to figure out what the real problem is. Ketosis might not be involved at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 08:24 PM

"That's a very proper gander."
-J. Thurber


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 08:21 PM

One of the other sites I dip into everyday,
for a few minutes recreational random reading is Quota.

Today, one question and answer about a lesser known movie star's dramatic obesity loss and muscle gain started off interesting but gradually became suspiciously more like an infomercial for keto..

Yep, the expert answering the question,
(presumably to a question set up by a shill..???)
is a 'qualified' keto propagandist salesman...


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 07:27 PM

There was a Nova episode called: "The Truth About Fat". It mentioned the case of a television show called "The Biggest Loser" where many overweight to severely obese people lost weight on a near competitive basis. One of the people is interviewed by Nova, he lost more than half his body weight going from 400 plus pounds to something like 180.

Almost none of the people festured on that series were able to keep the weight off. In the case of the man who was part of the Nova program, they established that while he was losing weight, his body-mind was in starvation mode and adjusted his basal metabolism downward. That low metabolic rate did not change. Long after he lost the weight and resumed eating 'normally', whatever that was, his base metabolism was far below that of a regular person.

I submit that until we know how to manage those 'set points' around metabolic rate and base weight, we won't have a handle on long term weight loss and maintenance.

Right now there are some contradictory appearances: That sustained weight loss and weight control are extremely difficult even when the subject has will power. Yet it is obvious that weight gain and obesity have magnified across the world in the past fifty years. So clearly somethings have changed. Right now there are many self anointed experts who claim that their big idea explains the situation. But do they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: meself
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 01:43 PM

Funny - I came onto this thread yesterday just after watching a video on youtube about the wonders of the keto diet - and, you know, when you're a dullard in matters of biochemistry, etc., you're kind of vulnerable to seeming experts. Reading this thread - apart from the unpleasantness - was something of a tonic - which is to say, that I appreciate the effort and thought put into some of its posts, whatever the motivation. I didn't skip breakfast this morning, which had been my original, brief, plan ... !


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 03:31 AM

Doesn't mean much in itself but confirms some of the problems for the heart with a keto diet:

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/keto-diets-cause-scarring-of-heart-tissue-and-inhibit-mitochondria-production-in-rats/


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 02:37 AM

Well, I have heard that Viagra does cause pop ups. And the adverts say it is the ke(y)to greater pleasure...


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 07:52 PM

Accchhhh, these pop-up adverts.

Here I was, reading the posts about the keto diet,
and suddenly there before my eyes
was a pop-up peddling Viagra ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 12:18 PM

Thanks, Jeri. You put across my point far more succinnctly

Relevent sections on Mudcatiquette - Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 12:08 PM

The main problem here at Mudcat is, and has been, personal squabbles that interfere with discussion on a thread. IT'S NOT PERSONAL, IT'S PUBLIC.
So if Jack wants to block Dave on Facebook, it's his business, and people (at least me) don't benefit from hearing about it. It's not Mudcat. It's just plain juvenile and snotty.

The only people who get their memberships yanked around here, no matter what they say or how they try to justify it, are those who engage in constant personal attacks.

Drop it.

Read the FAQ, and drop it here.
(or expect deletion)


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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 11:03 AM

You need to take more water with it if you thought that was bullying, Jack. I will say the same to anyone storming off in a huff. Or carrying out pointless public 'blocks'. Either do something or don't. In either case don't make a song and dance of it. No skin off my nose either way but being a Diva doesn't become anyone.


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