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Are all folk musicians political?

The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 10:10 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Feb 21 - 09:13 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 21 - 08:57 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Feb 21 - 08:08 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 08:04 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Feb 21 - 07:42 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 21 - 07:34 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 07:22 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 06:49 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 06:26 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 06:22 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 06:14 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Feb 21 - 05:48 AM
reggie miles 07 Feb 21 - 04:58 AM
Joe Offer 07 Feb 21 - 04:53 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Feb 21 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 04:22 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 04:13 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 21 - 04:11 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Feb 21 - 02:28 AM
reggie miles 07 Feb 21 - 01:28 AM
Joe Offer 07 Feb 21 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,Observer 07 Feb 21 - 12:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Feb 21 - 12:46 AM
Thompson 06 Feb 21 - 11:39 PM
GUEST,# 06 Feb 21 - 07:49 PM
Allan Conn 06 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM
Bonzo3legs 06 Feb 21 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Kenny B (inactive) 06 Feb 21 - 05:50 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Feb 21 - 05:39 PM
The Sandman 06 Feb 21 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Kenny B (inactive) 06 Feb 21 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,# 06 Feb 21 - 03:52 PM
Bonzo3legs 06 Feb 21 - 03:38 PM
keberoxu 06 Feb 21 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,# 06 Feb 21 - 02:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM
Thompson 06 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM
Thompson 06 Feb 21 - 01:35 PM
Bonzo3legs 06 Feb 21 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,# 06 Feb 21 - 01:18 PM
Bonzo3legs 06 Feb 21 - 01:03 PM
The Sandman 06 Feb 21 - 12:57 PM
The Sandman 06 Feb 21 - 12:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Feb 21 - 12:41 PM
The Sandman 06 Feb 21 - 12:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Feb 21 - 11:26 AM
The Sandman 06 Feb 21 - 10:48 AM
The Sandman 06 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Feb 21 - 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 10:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDtGpJQkMGw Alan Taylor.
backwoodsman
I do not read your posts good night, Steve Shaw is perfectly able to go and find you tube clips
why not seek out some of the clips instead of your perpetual arguing below the line, put in some effort go and find clips of the songs,instead of arguing in the bs section .
you lot remind me of alf garnett


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 09:13 AM

”And how many people do you think are going to do that as a result of wading through your huge sets of lyrics? Telling us who you like singing 'em on YouTube would be an incentive. Beating us round the head with masses of stuff to scroll through is a total DISincentive.”

...and simply C&P-ing lyrics to songs which have some political content, with just a “Here’s a political song” type of comment (or even no comment at all) adds absolutely nothing to any kind of discussion - it’s just wasting bandwidth and server-space.

If Sandman thinks we rely on him to educate us as to what constitutes a ‘political’ song, it says far more about his over-inflated ego than it does about anyone else here.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 08:57 AM

And how many people do you think are going to do that as a result of wading through your huge sets of lyrics? Telling us who you like singing 'em on YouTube would be an incentive. Beating us round the head with masses of stuff to scroll through is a total DISincentive.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 08:08 AM

How many listened to this when first broadcast??


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 08:04 AM

no, you can do that for yourself.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 07:42 AM

Spot on, Steve.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 07:34 AM

Yes it's a music forum. Dick tells us how important the words are. But it's a MUSIC forum. Songs are words AND MUSIC. The incessant posting of sets of lengthy lyrics, WITHOUT THE MUSIC, is vexatious in the extreme, and makes no point that I can personally glean. Name the bloody song, make your point and give us a YouTube link to somebody you enjoy singing it. Deal?


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 07:22 AM

This is a music forum , I am showing well written songs with well crafted lyrics to illustrate the point that lyrics have meaning to more people than just the song writer, and that these lyrics can be political and also non political [icarus] etc, this is in reply to guest Observer
Backwoodsman, if you do not like it you can go beneath the line or go to a different post


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 06:49 AM

here is a political song that does not give an opinion, but the lyrics are important
Song lyrics Anthony John Clarke - The Broken Years
The whole family's sitting watching TV
The only thing that makes me feel better
And no one plays the radio
The news is always bad

The kids, they've been keeping daddy up all night
Rock 'n' Rolling, shouting, fighting
Tomorrow is the marching season
We'll meet at the roundabout

I want to eat at the same table
I want to break the same bread
I want to march down the same streets
I want to hear the same bands
I want to sing the same songs
I want to say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years

Jimmy would get married in September
First of all he had to write a letter
Requesting dispensation
Just to be with the girl he loved
And in the end, hardly anybody came
Mother' side all blamed it on the weather
Three cheers for the broken years

I want to eat at the same table
I want to break the same bread
I want to march down the same streets
I want to hear the same bands
I want to sing the same songs
I want to say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years

(Instrumental)

Connor's late for school again
He's out of breath and running at the double
Get his education
He had to take the long way 'round
For even if he stayed out on the main road
Chances are he'd run into some trouble
Three cheers for the broken years

With all the pretty colours on the pavement
The green and gold that lighten through it all
And all the little broken shops and houses
With those badly spelled slogans on the wall
It's no wonder that everybody's leaving
It's no wonder at all, at all, at all
Three cheers for the broken years

I want to eat at the same table
I want to break the same bread
I want to march down the same streets
I want to hear the same bands
I want to sing the same songs
I want to say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years

Eat at the same table
Break the same bread
March down the same streets
Hear the same bands
Sing the same songs
Say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 06:26 AM

and anotherTHE SHELLBACK SONG
Words & Music by EWAN MACCOLL

I am a bold sea-faring man, I come from everywhere;
Name any point of the compass you like, you're bound to find me there.
Born in a gale in the Roaring Forties, entered in the log -
Sent up aloft to the tipper t'gan's'ls, and christened in navy grog.

All that I own are the clothes on me back and the tools of the sailor's trade;
Me fid and me palm, a few needles, a spike, a knife with a good, keen blade.
I've a hunk in the fo'c'sle, a place on a bench in the galley where I can feed,
And a hook for to hang me old oilskins up. What more does a shellback need ?

Been up in the rigging with Lascars and Swedes when the stormy winds do blow;
Bunted the royals with Arabs and Finns with the boiling sea below;
Hauled on the braces with Friesians, damn near drowned in the same big wave;
Chinamen, Yankees and Scousers and all of 'em bloody hard men to shave.

I've sailed both Atlantics and doubled both Capes more times than I can tell;
Fought the big seas in a parish-rigged barque and froze at Cape Farewell.
I've cursed the calms in the Doldrums when you'd swear the wind was dead;
Laid to off the Horn in a westerly gale that would blow the hair off your head.

I've shipped in high-loaded East Indiamen, been crew on a coastal barge;
Come bowling along on a smart clipper ship when she was running large.
Schooners, lime-juicers and barcatines, they're all well-known to me,
And I've worked as a flying fish sailor dodging the reefs in the China Sea.

To the maggoty beef and weevily bread, I've added me word of abuse;
I've pounded hard biscuit to powder and mixed it with bug-fat and jaggery juice.
With the galley awash for a week on end, I've gore hungry early and late;
Been served with pea-soup that could stand on the poop deck and scare off a blue-nosed mate.

I've signed on in short-handed Yankee ships with masters who know the score;
I've sailed with the drinkers who can't navigate a course past the bar-room door.
I've been with masters who're seamen and know how to treat a sailor well,
And some of the others, the miserable buggers, have made me life a hell.

I know all the boarding-house keepers ashore from Cardiff to Tokyo;
Know all the crimps and waterfront pimps from Riga to Callao.
I've spent me advance at Rasmussen the Dane's, I've lodged with Paddy West,
And I've know the slop-chest to take half of me screw while Big Nellie she took the rest.

I've sailed out of Rio in ballast, I've loaded grain in Frisco bay;
Raced with a cargo of tea from Shanghai on the old Thermopylae;
I've carried nitrates from Iquiqui and whisky out of Leith;
Sailed in the woolrace on old Cutty Sark, with the wind between her teeth.

Goodbye, you square-riggers, your voyaging's done, farewell to the days of sail;
Goodbye, you Cape-Horners and every tall ship that ever defied a gale;
Goodbye to the shellbacks who rode the winds through a world of sea and sky,
Your roving is ended, your seafaring's over; you mariners all, goodbye.
t


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 06:22 AM

Here is an example of a well crafted song with well crafted lyrics that does not give an opinion or is political, which highlights observers comment for what it is a half truth.
Icarus
Anne Lister
I never wanted to fly high: I was too fond of walking
So when you said you'd reach the sky, thought it was a way of talking
But you told me you'd build some
Wings, you'd found out how it could be done
But I was doubtful of everything, never thought you'd reach the sun.
You were so clever with your hands, I watched you for hours
With your glue and rubber bands, feathers and lace and flowers
And the finished wings gleamed so bright, like some bird of glory
Began to envy you your flight, like some hero's story.
You asked me to go along with you, tried all ways to dare me
But I looked at the sky so blue and said the height would scare me
But I carried the wings for you up the path to the cliff face
Kissed you goodbye and watched your eyes already bright with sunlight.
It was so wonderful at the start to watch you soaring higher
It was a pain in my heart—the wings seemed tipped with fire
Like some seagull or some lark heading for the heaven
Like some ember or some spark vanishing from earth for ever.
And I believed you'd reach the sun, I believed all you'd told me
Do a thing no man had ever done and catch a star to please me
And then I saw the white wings fold, saw the feathers tremble
Watched you drop like a ball of gold, the waves and waters ripple.
Well some are some who are born to rise and some are born to follow
Some who head right for the skies, some walk in the hollow
And as I watched your body fall I knew that really you had won
For your grave was not the earth but the reflection of the sun.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 06:14 AM

I am being nice to Bonzo,much nicer than if i met him face to face. here is a sensible quote
Does getting one's lyrics stuck in the heads of listeners qualify as relevance? Well, if you're a songwriter, that's an important quality to include in your songs. You definitely want to be able to write songs that will stick with listeners.

and writing songs means not just the melody it means the feckin words
.And people who come on to this forum and try and tell songwriters that there words are only important to themselves are well wide of the mar, of course they are important to themselves but they are important to listeners too. the eesnce is here..
that the words have to be listened too for a judgement to be made ,therefore words are important, if people deliberately close their ears ti the words how can they make a judgement.
it is like trying to talk to closed minds or rather like the woman in the film, shirley valentine who talks to the wall
I have given several examples, earlier in this thread of political songs that describe situations [joe peel, roll on the day, england motorways, shoals of herring, that are meaningful to many, but do not give an opinion, they let the song be told through the WORDS


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 05:48 AM

I do declare it's snowing - must play "Snowfalls" by The Albion Band!!


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:58 AM

If a political folksinger sings a song in the middle of some backwoods tree covered hollow and no one is there to hear it, does it make a difference? Most songwriters write from a perspective of appeasing their own personal muse or demon. Even if they are the only ones to ever hear the song, the writing and singing of it to an audience of one can be enough to sooth the savage beast or nagging feeling within.

Songs are, in many ways, the way in which we, as songwriters, come to terms with the world in which we find ourselves. They are wakeful dreams, a means of wrestling with the challenges we face. I would argue that the lyrics of any song are important enough to the songwriter to write them and that's enough. "... actually important, relevant, or meaningful...", those are abstract subjective notions. What might be "important, relevant, or meaningful" to one person certainly may not be the same to someone else but who is the judge? Who becomes the arbiter of importance, relevance, or meaningfulness?

I recently found out that one of my political folk songs, has been being sung by other performers for years, in an area of the country I've never visited, Nashville. Those singing it weren't even aware that it was my song. They attributed me as who they heard sing it but they weren't aware that I wrote it.

I haven't sang the song that much myself. I have so many of my own songs, that it's a challenge to give them all enough time, sharing them during performances. And I am always writing new songs. Something has got to give. I let some songs slide, as I endeavor to work up new songs, or songs to which I've previously given less of my time.

I gave the political folk song in question plenty of my energy and it reaped some rather unique attention, having made its way into an MTV B-Sides music video. Still, I saw no particularly significant resonance, at least not from among listeners in the region where I primarily perform. Who'd a thunk that somehow my song would find its way to Nashville and reap so much attention? I certainly didn't envision any of that happening. Nor did I knowingly have a hand in any of that happening. It just happened.

As the writer of the political folk song, I certainly felt the song was important, relevant and meaningful. I wouldn't have written it, if I didn't feel that way. But I cannot control the way any given listener responds to it. In this particular instance, it seems that location played a primary factor in the song finding the resonance it needed to survive. Somehow my political folk song found its way into the souls of those it was written about and they helped to bring it to the Nashville area.

I found out all of this after being contacted, about a month or so ago, by a Nashville resident, who shared this with me. He told me that I have many fans in the area because of my song. That was and still is such a strange revelation to hear.

I've noticed that many of the songs I write resonate with listeners below the Mason Dixon Line. That's likely due to the particular finger style pickin and bottleneck slidin that I use when I play. It's made me feel as though I'm living in the wrong part of the lower 48. I've attempted to make some inroads to perform more in the Deep South but thus far, I've had little to no success in that endeavor.

So, who deems a song "important, relevant, or meaningful?" Perhaps it's whether the song finds resonance among those listening. I played an open mic once and when I stepped away from the stage, I was approached by a young woman who was working in the kitchen. The kitchen was located in a separate room in the back, behind the bar. She told me that she couldn't get the words of one of my songs out of her head. I wasn't even aware that I could be heard from way back there in the kitchen. Does getting one's lyrics stuck in the heads of listeners qualify as relevance? Well, if you're a songwriter, that's an important quality to include in your songs. You definitely want to be able to write songs that will stick with listeners.

I'd offer that considering universal themes in your songwriting is important, if one's goal is hoping to find resonance and relevance in the hearts and minds of others. But to circle back to what I stated earlier, I think that first and perhaps foremost, songwriting is a personal journey in which the songwriter searches for truth, understanding, and meaning in a world that can often make those concepts challenging to find. To thine own self be true.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:53 AM

Now, Dick, be nice to Bonzo, as he should nice to to you. We're here to talk about music.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:45 AM

Listening to Soledad Pastorutti, a wonderful Argentine singer.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:22 AM

here are two well crafted songs that are political but are not just an opinion but are a description of what it is like to suffer from asbestosis
Roll on the Day
Allan Taylor
As the dawn comes creeping, roll on the day
Another night not sleeping, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Praying for another day, roll on the day
But when it comes, it wastes away, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Every night you fight for breath, roll on the day
It hurts so bad, you wish for death, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
As the dawn comes creeping, roll on the day
Another night not sleeping, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
Roll on the morning, roll on the day
I hear the old man softly praying, roll on the day
PeterBondJOE PEEL
(Peter Bond)

Workington way, when lads left school
Just the pit and foundry beckoned.
Young Joe went down to hew the coal
But not for long, so some folks reckoned.
For Joe could tackle hard and Joe could run,
He only needed time for growing,
And soon he'd signed his name to play
And to the city moved away.

Now on the sports page he'd appear,
The idol of the local lasses.
Out on the field he played it fair,
While all the girls made forward passes.
Until another match turned all the heads -
Jarrow lads V ruling classes,
And with no future in it now
It's home again and underground.

Back underground to hear no lark,
Thirty years from dawn till evening,
Until the coal had left its mark
And to the bank the earth returned him.
No more to sweat his days out in the dark,
Some years on top the dust had earned him,
And all the while the sickness grew
Still he'd ask what he could do for you.

He'd do odd jobs for one and all,
Though snow was thick or rain was teeming,
And all the world would seem to call,
The kettle never finished steaming.
"Reach up!", he'd say, "By God you're looking thin",
While mischief in his eyes was gleaming,
"If Lizzie thinks you're hungry still
There'll be nowt for us in her will".

The day you left I stayed outside,
With scalding tears, no comfort knowing.
We all turned up to say goodbye,
The church was filled to overflowing
You'd never've believed it if you'd seen
How many people mourned your going
And just how lucky folks still feel
To say they knew Joe Peel.

You'd never have believed it if you'd seen
How many people mourned your going
And just how lucky folks still feel
To say they knew Joe Peel.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:13 AM

The Shoals of Herring
Ewan MacColl
With our nets and gear we're faring
On the wild and wasteful ocean.
Its there that we hunt and we earn our bread
As we hunted for the shoals of herring
O it was a fine and a pleasant day
Out of Yarmouth harbor I was faring
As a cabinboy on a sailing lugger
For to go and hunt the shoals of herring
O the work was hard and the hours long
And the treatment, sure it took some bearing
There was little kindness and the kicks were many
As we hunted for the shoals of herring
O we fished the Swarth and the Broken Bank
I was cook and I'd a quarter sharing
And I used to sleep standing on my feet
And I'd dream about the shoals of herring
O we left the homegrounds in the month of June
And to Canny Shiels we soon were bearing
With a hundred cran of silver…

This is an example of a song , that does not just express an opinion


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 04:11 AM

No ,Songwriters do not just express their opinion on something, that shows a lack of understanding of songwriting, they also tell stories, express emotions describe situations all through the power and use of words.   What observer says diminishes the art of songwriting
here are examples of well crafted songs that do not express a SUBJECTIVE opinion on something.
Britains Motorways[MacColl] John Of Dreams, Unicorns, Icarus, Moth, Whitby Whaler, Song For Ireland ,Ring Of iron Three Score and Ten[W Delf].Shoals of Herring
all these songs do more than that, they are not just an opinion, and to try and claim such, only belittles the songwriting

I have np problem with someone who can only concentrate on lyrics for a short while, like mg.
Alan Conn, yes of course when music is in a foreign language you listen to it differently from how you do if you understand the lyrics.
    but the OP is talking about lyrics when we understand the language,This is primarily a forum where english and american is the spoken language and the OP is talking about the american folkscene and the uk folk revival and the english american language
Furthermore, in reply to observers comment
"Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningfu"
Bonzo and Observer , to decide that you have to feckin well listen first. if you do not listen to the words, how can you decide if they are meaningful, to decide if they are meaningful you have to have listened..
Bonzo . claims he is only interested in the sound good voice and backing, so it would appear he is not interested in the lyrics , yet   he agrees with the following statement from observer
"Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningful
   THAT MEANS BONZO DOES ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE LYRICS otherwise he could not make a value judgement as to whether they were meaningful. Here is the lyrics of ENGLAND's MOTORWAYS

Come over here, my little son, and I'll tell you what to do
Undress yourself and get into bed and a tale I'll tell to you
It's all about your daddy, he's a man you seldom see
For he's forced to roam, far away from home, far, far from you and me

CHORUS
But remember lad, he's still your dad
Though he's working far away
In the cold and the heat, all the hours of the week
On England's Motorways

So if you fall and hurt yourself and get up feeling bad
It isn't any use to go a-running for your dad
For the only time since you were born that he's spent some time with you
He was out of a job and he hadn't a bob, he was signing on the buroo

CHORUS

Sure we'd like your daddy here and wouldn't it be fine
To have him working here at home and be with us all the time
But beggars can't be choosers, so we have to bear the load
Cos we need the money your daddy earns, working on the road


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 02:28 AM

"Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningful - all that song writer is doing is expressing his, or her, view on something. It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less."

How true!!!


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 01:28 AM

Well, I can't speak for all folk musicians. I can only speak for myself. And I have written a pile of political songs. One of my political songs landed me in a news story, called, "No Dough In The Do Re Mi, Songwriters Take On The Recession" (2009), that made the cover of the Wall Street Journal. In the article, the writer Robert Tomsho, mentions three prominent political songwriters, Woody, definitely a political Folk music hero, Tom Paxton, definitely a political songwriter, and Neil Young, I wouldn't have considered him strict folk music figure. I'd say he's a cross-over artist, who branched in the larger scene of Folk/Rock but many of his songs have a definite acoustic Folk vibe and he definitely has a strong interest in political songs. I've heard Dave Van Ronk offer up one of the strongest political folk songs I've ever heard with Patrick Sky, "Luang Prabang." A musical partner and I used to offer it together as well...

Luang Prabang


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 12:52 AM

We had an obituary for Anne Feeney this week. I would think of her as a consummate folksinger, although she didn't often sing traditional songs. She wrote activist songs, and used her songs in her lifelong career as an activist. Was Malvina Reynolds a folksinger?-I think so. Was she political?-You betcha.



But I really almost hate to see that word "all." There are many folksingers who sing apolitical songs, and many folksingers who sing political songs. I like 'em both.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 12:51 AM

Hate to point this out BUT:

He is only interested in voice and good backing, imo his attitude is belittling the efforts of song writers who consider their lyrics to be important .

Just because a song writer considers their lyrics important does not mean that they are actually important, relevant or meaningful - all that song writer is doing is expressing his, or her, view on something. It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 21 - 12:46 AM

Sandman - there are some singers for whom the song is nothing but a set of technical exercises, and there are some people who like this kind of singing and cannot engage with it on any further level. You can still love those people - even if they don't understand music on any other level than it being a nice sound.

My own father was one such. he could never understand why Shirley Bassey 'brass band' type reading was almost an affront to George Harrison's Something - totally missing as it does,   the yearning and wonderment of the lyrics.

I loved my Dad and respected him. I'm not asking you to love Bonzo, but just accept the fact that his ears are wired to a different circuit to yours and mine. Argument is quite pointless.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 11:39 PM

Dunno about "all that Chieftains stuff". There's a lot of political music in there, from Mo Ghile Mear to The Rebel Jesus to Róisin Dubh.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 07:49 PM

I agree with Mr Conn completely.

Fiorella Mannoia comes to mind. She does a beautiful song (written by Ivano Fossati) entitled 'I treni a vapore', and it has knocked my socks off for years. Fossati also does it and his takes work for me also. YMMV and likely will, but one need not understand a language to appreciate the music people have written in or because of that language. The song is beautiful even though it took me over a year and countless 'listens' to appreciate it more fully. My favourite take of Mannoia's is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odGWcJnnzVM and Fossati's is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2p_hz-oOcM


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM

I am not sure that getting upset that someone doesn't care much for taking note of the meaning of words in our songs is very productive at all. Not everyone listens to music the same way. Just the way it is so why get offended? I do like to take note of the words of a song but at the same time I can fully appreciate how one can enjoy music without taking note of, or even being able to understand what is being said. I love lots of Gaelic language music, French music, Latin music, music with vocal sounds rather than words (for example some Caroline Shaw etc). It is perfectly possible to enjoy singing without knowing what the words are.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 06:09 PM

That is your problem sandman, not mine.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:50 PM

Very Subtle Steve?


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:39 PM

>>>>why do we never hear hymns, psalms or Gregorian chants in the hallowed environs of English-speaking folk clubs?<<<< Mostly because they're not seen as folk songs, but there are plenty of carols.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 05:30 PM

Bonzo, it is my business i write songs, i spend time crafting lyrics, and someone comes along and says "only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing."
As a singer i am offended because you clearly know nothing about singing, being a good singer is not just about having a good voice,it is also about interpreting lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 04:28 PM

A perfect entertaining example of politics in the Folk Club Scene
"This is a bitter satire by the late, much loved Alex Glasgow, a passionate socialist and a great singer."

Alex Glasgow - As Soon As This Pub Closes

As the subjects of politics and/or religion are frowned on in many pubs
why do we never hear hymns, psalms or Gregorian chants never heard in the hallowed environs of english speaking folk clubs?


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 03:52 PM

In the parlance, that is good enough to make a bishop put his foot through a stained glass window. However, it introduces the notion of class/place in the social order and invites comments (should one be so inclined) to do with 'why'. That isn't necessarily political, but it could be.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 03:38 PM

Great voice, great backing and no politics!!!


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 03:24 PM

Well, Joanne, you opened Pandora's Box, it looks like!

Mary (mg), I have heard of Martin Simpson, but
not for political bias during performances.

Actually, I am reminded of the remark made during my late lamented days singing in a church choir.
One rehearsal evening our director could not be present,
and one of the choir members, a wife and mother with a long-time membership in the church, substituted.
As we were reviewing the hymns for the coming service,
she quietly remarked that

"for some people who come to church,
our singing is the only Gospel they truly hear."


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 02:01 PM

Here it is in Greek and English.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/o-antonis-o-adonis-adonis.html


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM

A lot of folk music isn't to do with the meaning of the lyrics.

All that Chieftains stuff, morris tunes, Clannad, ....

The branch of folk music that you and I like values lyricism, wit, sophistication - frankly sometimes to the detraction of musicality.

That's okay, blessed are the simple, for they shall be simplified, and its of no great concern or inconvenience to us.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM

Whoops, Mudcat doesn't like Greek. Maybe a moderator could swipe it away? It was a folk song called O Antonis; I'll leave you look up the words yourself.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:35 PM

Sure, folk music is political. By definition, it's the music of the people, and it reflects the concerns of the political. For example:


    This one, Thompson?

    O Antonis or "Andonis" is the second song of "The Mauthausen Trilogy", also called "The Ballad of Mauthausen", a cycle of four arias with lyrics based on poems written by Greek poet Iakovos Kambanellis, a Mauthausen concentration camp survivor. (O Antonis)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3qMCU6mpS0

    Looks like the current settings of Mudcat are very intolerant of anything but the "Standard Character Set."
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:20 PM

"it seems logical to me anyone who wants thjis is in the wrong place and would be happier listening the sounds of the beach boys tom jones bee gees rolling stones,or and at their pop concerts"

what is he talking about?? go away boy and play with your concertina and whatever else you play with!!!


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:18 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZH2bmbUTl4

(Couldn't resist.)


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 01:03 PM

I might be happier if sandman minded his own business for a change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:57 PM

No Al. i am not angry,I am mystified as to why he goes to folk concerts He is only interested in voice and good backing, imo his attitude is belittling the efforts of song writers who consider their lyrics to be important .
he might be happier leaving the folk scene and going to stones concerts, no politics there, just voice and good backing. he would be inthe company of fellow conservative MickJ agger
congratulate him for knowing his mind?
that is ridiculous, should i have congratulated mrs thatcher for knowing her mind


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:48 PM

Bonzo is "only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing" lets stick to this intellectual proposition.
He does not want anything other than
"only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing."
So why come to a genre[the folk scene]where there are many songs where lyric content is important.
many songwriters who consider their lyrics to be important include Ewan MacColl Alan Taylor Peter Bond LeonRosselson harvey andrews anne lister jez lowe peggy seeger richard grainger graeme miles ron angel ed pickford,
Quite frankly it is insulting their efforts to come on this forum and state
I don't need to get it, only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing.
it seems logical to me anyone who wants thjis is in the wrong place and would be happier listening the sounds of the beach boys tom jones bee gees rolling stones,or and at their pop concerts
I have been involved on the folk scene for 50 years and in all that time songwriters and singers of trad songs consider lyrics to be as important as sounds and good arrangements content is as important as form


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:41 PM

Well he's entitled to do what he likes - they're his toys to throw out the pram,

If someone is being unreasonable, its no use applying reasonable arguments and getting angry.

He says this is what he likes, and not what you like. end of argument. congratulate him for knowing his own mind.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:28 PM

I am Talking about throwing toys out of prams. Trump does that.
these posts are like someone throwing toys out of prams
Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 08:28 AM

Rubbish
and
Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 09:25 AM

I don't need to get it, only interested in the sound - good voice and good backing.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 11:26 AM

you wouldn't like it if someone said you reminded them of Donald Trump.


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 10:48 AM

If you go to folk clubs or folk festivals you must expect to hear some political songs and some songs of social comment.That has been my experience of 50 years of involvement with folk music
if you want songs which are non political you will find that a good proportion of the repertoire is unsatisfactory.
if you want songs that just have good voices or good backing but are not political you are likely to be better satisfied going to pop concerts, that is not insulting anybody
if i w\ant to hear good improvisation, i go to a jazz club, i do not go to a country and irish concert.
i do not generally expect to hear as high a standrd of improvisation at a folk concert as at a jazz concert,[it might happen very occasionally] but that is not why i attend folk venues, horses for courses


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM

Al
but my opinion, and this is only an opinion, is what is anyone who is not intersted in lyrics and only interested in sounds doing on the uk folk scene ,
the only exceptions i understand, are those people who are inttersted in playing irish or scots or world tradtional instrumental music.
i am not insulting anyone, tom jones the stones daniel odonnell are competent performers
but i am genuinely mystified why anyone who is only interested in sounds and good backing is not happier at a stones concert or at tom jones.or daniel o donnell
.if you come to listen to folk music you are going to encounter political songs or songs of social comment ,if you dont like that why listen to folk music, you are not guaranteed songs of no political content. so unless you are a masochist you have come to the wrong place for just good voices and backing ,why not stick to the bee gees or beach boys


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Subject: RE: Are all folk musicians political?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 10:05 AM

don't insult bonzo3legs.


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