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Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'

Shogun 16 Apr 21 - 01:21 AM
Shogun 13 Apr 21 - 06:50 AM
Shogun 13 Apr 21 - 06:47 AM
Shogun 09 Apr 21 - 10:52 AM
Shogun 07 Apr 21 - 07:01 AM
Shogun 01 Apr 21 - 12:01 PM
Lighter 26 Mar 21 - 01:15 PM
Shogun 26 Mar 21 - 12:34 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Mar 21 - 08:32 AM
Lighter 26 Mar 21 - 08:00 AM
GUEST 26 Mar 21 - 06:51 AM
Steve Gardham 23 Mar 21 - 03:28 PM
Shogun 23 Mar 21 - 09:00 AM
Shogun 19 Mar 21 - 11:10 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Mar 21 - 10:41 AM
Gibb Sahib 16 Mar 21 - 08:30 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Mar 21 - 10:31 AM
Shogun 16 Mar 21 - 06:59 AM
Shogun 12 Mar 21 - 07:07 AM
Lighter 12 Mar 21 - 06:54 AM
Gibb Sahib 12 Mar 21 - 04:26 AM
Shogun 12 Mar 21 - 03:23 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 21 - 04:47 PM
Lighter 09 Mar 21 - 02:43 PM
Shogun 09 Mar 21 - 08:37 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 21 - 07:36 AM
Shogun 09 Mar 21 - 03:43 AM
Gibb Sahib 07 Mar 21 - 10:01 PM
Gibb Sahib 07 Mar 21 - 09:38 PM
Lighter 07 Mar 21 - 04:44 PM
Shogun 07 Mar 21 - 04:02 PM
Gibb Sahib 06 Mar 21 - 10:59 PM
Shogun 06 Mar 21 - 04:54 PM
Shogun 02 Mar 21 - 03:15 AM
Shogun 27 Feb 21 - 11:23 AM
Shogun 27 Feb 21 - 11:19 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Feb 21 - 09:55 AM
Lighter 27 Feb 21 - 09:19 AM
Gibb Sahib 26 Feb 21 - 10:26 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM
Lighter 26 Feb 21 - 03:49 PM
Shogun 26 Feb 21 - 02:39 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Feb 21 - 12:18 PM
Shogun 26 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM
Shogun 26 Feb 21 - 11:13 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Feb 21 - 10:39 AM
Gibb Sahib 26 Feb 21 - 03:02 AM
Steve Gardham 25 Feb 21 - 05:02 PM
Shogun 25 Feb 21 - 04:09 PM
Steve Gardham 25 Feb 21 - 09:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 16 Apr 21 - 01:21 AM

080 - Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well - (WITH PRESENTATION)


Here the hauling song resembling this latter somewhat is "Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well!" Whall calls it "O Fare Ye Well, My Bonnie Young Girl". Stan Hugill's version, with perhaps a few more regular verses than usual, obtained from an old Liverpool seaman. Normally there was one pull in the refrain on the second syllable of "Hurrah".
Shanties from the Seven Seas by Stan Hugill (1st ed p 119).


Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well

Sing fare ye well me bonny young gal,
   - HurRAH! Sing fare ye well!
Sing fare ye well, oh, fare ye well,
   - HurRAH! Sing fare ye well!

               *2*
We're bound away to Callyo,
Oh, fare ye well, me Liverpool gal,

               *3*
I may cime back th ye some day,
With a spanking' big fat pay-day.

               *4*
But when we get to Callyo,
I'll git me a nice bit o' Dago,

               *5*
As I walked out one mornin' fair,
I met a puta standin' there.

               *6*
She winked at me I do declare,
Black as night was her raven hair.

               *7*
She was a Spanish beauty bold.
Her name was Carmen, so I'm told.

               *8*
Oh, fare ye well, we're bound away,
We're bound away this sailing day.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 06:50 AM

To Admin
It cut text, in my post, the whole sentence should be:
Here the hauling shanty. Tozer and Colcord give a version, the former giving a set of very sentimental verses which Stan Hugill, he fell sure to have been made up. C. F. Smith sees in it a resemblance to „Shallow Brown”.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 06:47 AM

079 - Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye

Here the hauling shanty. Tozer and Colcord give a version, the former giving a set of very sentimental verses which Stan Hugill, he fell sure to have been made up. C. F. Smith sees in it a resemblance to
Shanties from the Seven Seas by Stan Hugill (1st ed p 118).


Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye


I,m bound away to leave yer,
   - GoodBYE my love, goodBYE!
I never will deceiver yer,
   - GoodBYE my love, goodBYE!

            *2*
I'll leave you my half pay, Sue,
White-stocking Day soon will be due.

            *3*
Have a drink on me, my dearie,
For waiting's mighty weary.

            *4*
We're bound away to 'Frisco,
Oh, cut her strings an' let 'er go!


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 10:52 AM

078 - Bound To California

EN
This is capstan shanty of the Gold Rush Period, of which Miss C. F. Smith has found and published in her "A Book of Shanties" (1927). She mentions, that Captain J. L. Vivian Millett, from whom she had it, remembers hearing it sung at Algoa Bay, in the days when anchorage off that port was still crowded with sailing ships.
" ...A big vessel was just getting up her anchor; she had a good shanty crowd, and the chorus roared out by a score of voices came over the waters of the open roadstead with an unforgettable effect".
Unfortunately, Captain Millett could only give to Miss Smith the chorus of this shanty.
Shanties from the Seven Seas by Stan Hugill (1st ed p 118).



Bound To California


Good-bye, my lads, good-bye,
No one can tell me why
I am bound to California
To reap the shining gold!

Good-bye, my lads, good-bye,
No one can tell me why
I am bound to California
To reap the shining gold


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 07:01 AM

077 - Susannavisan (Stan Hugill Translation)


EN
In the case of this song, Stan Hugill again mentioned the source "Sang under Segel", Sigurd's Sternwall's Swedish shanty book (Reference to its being sung at the capstan is to be found in the Preface, page 12). From this book, Stan Hugill gives us two verses and melody to this beautiful song, the construction of the verses is really close to Stephen Foster's version of "Oh Susanna".
Additionally, worth noting this version is a personal translation of Stan Hugill, so I think it deserves to singing it.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 117).


Susannavisan (Stan Hugill Translation)

Oh, I was born on Sweden's Coast,
Where the fine ships sail along,
And a fine ship was my heart's desire,
Since I was very young.

But the first time that he went aboard,
He kissed me tenderly,
And unto me he said these words,
'You are all the word to me.'

   - Oh, Susanna, now don't ye cry for me,
   - Be faithful to your sailor boy
   - Till I come home from sea.

             *2*
On a long voyage he went away,
I sat alone and sighed.
And when the wind was howling wild,
'Tis oft at night I cried.

But when the tears ran down my cheecks,
My sailor boy came home.
He sang to me in deep content,
From these arms I'll never roam.

   - Oh, Susanna, oh, don't ye cry for me,
   - I'm homeward bound to you at last,
   - And now I'm safe with thee.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 12:01 PM

076 - Susannavisan

EN
In the case of this song, Stan Hugill again mentioned the source: "Sang under Segel", Sigurd's Sternwall's Swedish shanty book (Reference to its being sung at the capstan is to be found in the Preface, page 12). From this book, Stan Hugill gives us two verses and melody to this beautiful song, the construction of the verses is really close to Stephen Foster's version of "Oh Susanna". Unfortunately, I couldn't find the "Sang under Segel", but what I do found is another book "Flottans Män Malmö visbok" (1942). In this book, I found another two verses of this great song, so my reconstruction will contain four verses. In „Flottans Män Malmö visbok”, I found another two verses of this great song, so my reconstruction will contain four verses.
I want to make a special thanks to Kim Hansson, Pontus Wallgren and Steve Simpson who helped me with pronunciation to make it possible to sing this beautiful forebitter in the Swedish language.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 116).


Susannavisan


Jag är född vid gamla Sveriges kust,
där den stolta skutan går,
och den stolta skutan, var min lust
från jag blott var sjutton år.

Men den första gång han gick ombord,
kysste han mig ven och huld,
och han sade vänligt dessa ord:
"Du är allt mitt hjärtas guld".

   - O Susanna, gråt inte för din vän,
   - men bli mig alltid städse tro,
   - tills jag kommer hem igen!

               *2*
På den långa resan drog han bort,
jag satt ensam. O, min skatt!
Och när vädret det var riktigt hårt,
låg jag vaken mången natt.

Men när tåren bittert flöt på kind,
kom min sjöman hem i hamn
och så sjöng han med ett nöjsamt sinn´,
då han tryckte mig i famn:

   - O Susanna, gråt inte för din vän!
   - Jag gungat har uppå böljan blå,
   - och här har du mig igen.

               *3*
Och så talte vi så månget ord,
Vi förglömde storm och blåst,
Men en dag han sa: "Min tös, jag tror,
Vi behöver snart en präst.

Jag får ta en tur på två års tid,
Men är lyckan med din vän,
Kommer jag med rik'dom åter hit,
Och vi går till prästen hän.

   - 0, Susanna, gråt dock ej för mig!
   - Jag till Kalifornien far
   - Och gräver guld för dig."

               *4*
I ett litet hus vid kusten bor
Vi som lyckligt äkta par.
Han kom hem igen, han höll sitt ord.
Fyra raska barn vi har.

Han går icke mer på resor, nej!
Men när stormen rasar vild,
Han till barmen älskligt trycker mej
Och så säger han så mild:

   - "O, Susanna, mitt allt, min fröjd och lust,
   - Där finns ej man så glad som jag
   - På hela Sveriges kust!"


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 01:15 PM

Shogun, feel free. Just spell my name right.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 12:34 PM

I do apologise, everyone, that my Oh, Susanna was posted when I'm not logged in, but I'm sure everybody recognized my routines :)

Lighter
If you not mind I will include your comment in the description of this beautiful Forebitter.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 08:32 AM

Along with Titanic and a few naval ships, all good examples of 'The bigger they come, the harder they fall.'


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 08:00 AM

New York Daily Herald (June 24, 1852):

"Boston, June 22...The new clipper ship Sovereign of the Seas, now lying in your port, is the largest merchant ship in the world."

So begins an extended advertising description of the vessel.

"Sovereign" was wrecked August 6, 1859, on the Pyramid Shoals in the Straits of Malacca.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 06:51 AM

075 - Oh, Susanna

EN
Another song from the time when the Gold Rush of 1849 happens was "Oh, Susanna". Stan Hugill says, is that this song never been in print, with exception of Miss Colcord's fragmentary version listed in her book as a fo'c'sle song.

So this what Joanna C. Colcord gives us in her book (Songs of American Sailormen" - 1938, in the "Roll & Go" - 1924, in both books we can find, the same amount of verses):
"It was singular that with all the vast pride and delight of the sailor in his ship, so few songs were sung in celebration of the qualities of individual vessels. There was about California clipper "Sovereign of the Seas", which went to the same tune as the 'forty-niners' song"...
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 116).



Oh, Susanna



Holystone the cabin,
And get down on your knees,
None of your limejuice touches,
In the Sovereign of the Seas!


   Oh, Susanna,
   Darling, take your ease,
   For we have beat the clipper fleet,
   The Sovereign of the Seas!


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 03:28 PM

Unfortunately there appears to be no evidence whatsoever that it was written by a sailor. Going by what we now know of the likely origins of the bulk of the chanties the greater likelihood is that the song was put together on a Mississippi steamboat and found its way on board ships by way of the Gulf ports, along with the other 'fireman' chanties.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 09:00 AM

074 - The Sailor Fireman

EN
This song was already in print in 1950 in a book called "Nigger Melodies; being The Only Entire and Complete Work of Ethiopian Songs Extant" (Cornish Lamport & Co., New York, 1850, 2488., illustrated frontis, VG).

Stan Hugill states are that this song may be the key to the origin of the verse of "Sacramento" and Foster's "Camptown Races". The original title of this song is "I'LL FIRE DIS TRIP", and according to Stan Hugill's research, originally has been written by a sailor who for the first, and probably the last time, tried the hard work of a fireman.

The version of this song in Stan Hugill's book comes from Sigurd Sternvall's "Sang under Segel" (1935). I decided to sing the original text of this song from "Nigger Melodies; being The Only Entire and Complete Work of Ethiopian Songs Extant", printed over one hundred and seventy years ago (page 168, 169), it has slightly different lyrics, compared to this, what Stan Hugill's gives to us. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 115).



The Sailor Fireman (I'll Fire Dis Trip)

I'll fire dis trip but I'll fire no more,
   - Oho. oho, oh!
Oh, pay me my money, and I'll go on shore,
   - Fire down below

             *2*
Miss Fanny Bell, oh, fare you well,
I'm going away p'r'aps to -----

             *3*
A bully-boat, and a bully crew,
And a bully-raggin' captain too,

             *4*
De posom jump and de panther roar,
I woke dis morning at half-past four.

             *5*
I creep out safely from my hive,
And took a dram at half-past five.

             *6*
Says I, ole boat, let's have no tricks,
Her biler bust,—at half-past six.

             *7*
So now we trabel under sail,
'Cause Jonah's de man dat swallow'd de whale.

             *8*
I'll fire dis trip, but I'll fire no more,
Pay me my money and I'll go on shore.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 11:10 AM

073 - Heisevise (Norvegian Wergland version)


This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
Stan Hugill has given us a funny story about an uncensored, Norwegian version of this song. It is a conversation of old Norwegian sailors:
'Do you remember how the Norwegian version of this shanty went?'
'I do, but... it is too horrible! What we sang is now better forgotten!'
'yes, that is so, ... Let's give Wergland's bowdlerized version instead ...'
Stan Hugill mentioned about seventeen verses of the original Wergland's version, in fact, I found actually was 25 of them. I found the full version of this great capstan shanty on Henrik Wergland's "Folkeviser"(1849). Special thanks to Arne B Petersen, to help with the learning of the ancient Norwegian dialect pronunciation.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Heisevise (Norvegian Wergland version)


Overt Land af Godt og ondt har Sit.
   - Ota Hayti, Ota Hayti!
Jeg holder nu paa Norge mit.
   - In the Ota Hayti, ho!

   - Blow, boys, blow for Californio,
   - There is plenty of gold, so I am told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento.

             *2*
Om Sjelland flød som Grød i Smør -
Jeg meer af mager Frihed gjor.

             *3*
Var Jylland selv en Fleskeskank,
den kjøber jeg for Norges Bank.

             *4*
Ja heller Frihed uden Fleft!
En feed og smørret Trældom best !

             *5*
I Sverrig var jeg og til Gjæst.
Hver finder sig nok hjemme bedst.

             *6*
I Stockholms Borg boer Kongen godt.
I Norge er hver Barm hans Slot.

             *7*
I Ruøland Kneijer Byg og Rug ;
men Slaven kryber paa fin Bug.

             *8*
I Polen vorer Hampen svær.
Gud hjælpe Den, som klager der !

             *9*
Hollaenderen har guld endnu
Menei en nordmands muntre hu.

             *10*
Han sidder over Glasset stur .
Sligt stemmer ci med vor Natur.

             *11*
Og aldrig stjænker han sin Ven.
Med ham jeg deler Skillingen.

             *12*
St. Paul gjør Engelskmanden krij.
Snehættend Top gaaer heit i Sky.

             *13*
Den Londong Luft er mørk og tæt.
Men hjemme aander jeg saa let .

             *14*
Hurra for Britten ! Han er fri,
og dygtig Sømand jo som Vi.

             *15*
I Frankrig fode Druer groe.
Vi drikke hjemme bem iro.

             *16*
En Franskmand har fit hvide Bred .
Mit sorte gie'r mig Marv og Kjod.

             *17*
For Republiken flod hans Blod.
Men Thronen staaer dog hvor den stod.

             *18*
Han frister vel endnu engang.
Da skal han faae en Æressang.

             *19*
I Spanien Laurbær groe som Lyng.
Men pas dig der for Dolkesting !

             *20*
Der vorer gylden Appelsin.
Den bringer jeg Allerkjæresten min.

             *21*
Og hvor jeg foer dybt i Levant,
min norske Hjemvce dog mig fandt.

             *22*
J.Torreviz og Setuval
Jeg mindedes min Fædredal.

             *23*
Jeg mindedes min Faders Huus,
og tog iland et Glædeßruus.

             *24*
Og hvorsomhelst dets Frihedédag
laae Skuden stolt med Norges Flag.

             *25*
Og Portugis og Spaniol
Singsallijoh!


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 21 - 10:41 AM

Sorry yes, I did.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 08:30 PM

"or thereabouts"

Do you mean Tahiti? ;)

Here's a Norwegian group's rendition.

Ota Haiti


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 10:31 AM

I think Otaheite was the old name for Hawaii or thereabouts. I wonder if there is some connection.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 06:59 AM

072 - Sacramento (Norvegian English worded version)

EN
This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
Stan Hugill has given us a funny story about an uncensored, Norwegian version of this song. It is a conversation of old Norwegian sailors:
'Do you remember how the Norwegian version of this shanty went?'
'I do, but... it is too horrible! What we sang is now better forgotten!'
'yes, that is so, ... Let's give Wergland's bowdlerized version instead ...'
Unfortunately, Stan Hugill Did not provide more verses, to this great song.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Sacramento (Norvegian English worded version)


Now we are leaving here, shipmate,
   - Ota Hayti, Ota Hayti!
Soon shall we see the Golden Gate,
   - In the Ota Hayti, ho!

   - Blow, boys, blow for Californio,
   - There is plenty of gold, so I am told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento.

             *2*
Oh, heave and weigh the anchor light!
The flying-fish is swimming tight.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 12 Mar 21 - 07:07 AM

Gibb Sahib

"Der ...", it is interesting because He didn't this mistake on "De Hoffnung", but, I just did follow the title from the book, but you know me, I will be careful with German titles in the future.

I never tried kööm, but in Scotland, it is really hard to refuse Single Malt and any other stuff, is not really much comparable :)

Lighter

It is very possible the next books that take my attention after I do finish with "Shanties From the Seven Seas", will be Harlow ones.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Mar 21 - 06:54 AM

Steve, I've checked Harlow, and I must say that's it difficult to tell whether his comment refers to what he calls "Barnacle [sic] Bill" or to the succeeding "Priest and the Nuns." The part about "painting the town red" better fits "BB," but the paragraph structure seems to direct attention to what follows.

He does identify The P&N, however, as used at the "pumps." And indeed it had never been in print before.

Harlow's posthumous book is sort of a hodgepodge and clearly in unfinished condition.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Mar 21 - 04:26 AM

"Kööm gev dat blots an Wiehnachtsobend." hehe :)

Hugill has
"Kööm geev bloss an'n Wihnachtsabend."

kööm* - gives - only - on-a - Christmas-eve

Admittedly, Hugill's spelling are haphazard, as Platt is not standardized.

I think he is mistaken by giving the title as "DER Hamborger Veermaster" when it should be "DE Hamborger Veermaster." I don't think "Der" exists in Platt.




*Hugill freely translates kööm as "rum," but it's a terrible, terrible liquor (IN MY HUMBLE OPINION) which is famous in Hamborg. I still have some on my shelf because I could not bring myself to finish it!


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 12 Mar 21 - 03:23 AM

071 - Der Hamborger Veermaster

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
The low German version, very popular from known to every German sailing-ship man, was sung aboard the German four-masted barque Pamir as late as1951. Thanks to Gunnar Weigant, to help with the learning of the "Platt Deutsche" dialect pronunciation.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Der Hamborger Veermaster


Ick heff mol en Hamborger Veermaster sehn,
   - To my hoodah, to my hoodah!
De Masten so scheef as den Schipper sien Been.
   - To my hoodah, hoodah, ho!


   - Blow, boys, blow for Californio,
   - There is plenty of gold, so I am told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento.


                            *2*
Dat Deck weer von Isen, vull Schiet un vull Smeer,
Dat weer de Schietgäng eer schönstes Pläseer.

                            *3*
Dat Logis weer vull Wanzen, de Kombüs weur vull Dreck,
De Beschüten, de leupen von sülven all weg.

                            *4*
Dat Soltfleesch weer gröön, un de Speck weer vull Maden,
Kööm gev dat blots an Wiehnachtsobend.

                            *5*
Un wulln wi mol seil'n, ik segg dat jo nur,
Denn lööp he dree vörut und veer wedder retur.

                            *6*
As dat Schipp, so weer ok de Kaptain,
De Lüd for dat Schipp weern ok blots schanghait.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 04:47 PM

Hi Jon,
Those comments appear to be referring to the previous chanty, 'Abel Brown'. I can't find any comment on 'The Priest and the Nuns'. I would remember if I'd seen the story somewhere as the plot is obviously sexual euphmism, of which I collect examples.

The chorus does seem to be more continental, and again it is too much like a ballad to have been used as a genuine chanty.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 02:43 PM

Steve, Harlow gives the text and tune of a unique ribald song called "The Priest and the Nuns," which is set in Austria and has a very German-sounding tune and lyrics that may have been translated from some Continental source. I haven't seen it elsewhere.

He notes that he doubts "very much whether *this* song was ever in print, but it was a popular pumping chantey in early days."

That seems to imply that he heard it himself aboard Akbar in 1876-77, but his information is just as likely to be second-hand.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 08:37 AM

Steve Gardham

Maybe somebody from Mudcat Caffe seen this song in full somewhere, so I can sing it in full! So if anyone can help, please, please do it.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 07:36 AM

The couplet looks like the start of some bawdy ballad, but the refrain looks like something from an 18th century broadside. Either way, hardly chanty material.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 03:43 AM

070 - Sacramento (Version from German barque Gustav)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
A Rabelaisian German version that we sang aboard the four-masted barque Gustav. So unfortunate is that Stan Hugill did not give us more stanzas and it is the only English translation of the German origin, but refrain parts are really rare and beautiful.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Sacramento (Version from German barque Gustav)


Oh, a monk one day from his monastery went,
   - To me fal-la, to me fal-la!
His head all shaven and his gown all rent,
   - To me fal-lal, lal-lal, la!

   - Blow, boys, blow for Californio,
   - There is plenty of gold, so I am told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 10:01 PM

Sorry for my confusion!: I see now that it was Patterson's "hauling" one that Hugill gave. I thought, from what Shogun was saying, that Hugill gave the capstan one. I misread / misinterpreted.

"If Stan Hugill gave this song as another version of "Sacramento", the usual capstan shanty, why he didn't provide the first matched type example? And he gave another "Hauling one instead. "

Because the strange hauling version was precisely what was notable / weird in Patterson, which Hugill wanted to note. He had already given capstan versions, and he wanted, for the record, to also note that it was possible there had also been a hauling version, based on Patterson. Though as Lighter notes, he expressed skepticism, too. (My preference would have been he just ignored it since it is so suspect. I mean, I would certainly note it in a discussion, but in a published work I would not include it... these days, reviewers/editirs would probably compel me to be more concise and leave out such tangential things, or I'd just put a footnote: "It's possible there was a hauling version, based on one source, but the issue with this source is XYZ.")

Also adding here: Colcord cites Patterson in her bibliography. So I, for one, am convinced that Colcord took the "cocktail flows" line from Patterson.

Maybe if I'm free later I'll try to find where else I've seen the "cocktail" line...


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 09:38 PM

I don't have the inclination to go on a hunt to solve the mystery of Patterson, and I hope people will forgive that, as a disclaimer. My bias is that I think Patterson is not a helpful source for documenting the history of chanties. While I was certainly familiar with the Patterson source, I believe I excluded it from my _Boxing the Compass_ because I thought it was too tangential to the story of writing about chanties.

Having made that disclaimer, I *have* noticed that Patterson's random (IMO) verse about "where the cocktail flows" turns up in writing elsewhere. Colcord is one place, but I know there is another. Because, again in my opinion, this is a random (extemporized) sounding verse, which I would doubt had currency with many singers, I suspect there were some shenanigans going on, of writers copying from other publications. "Who copied whom?" is not the question I'm inclined to research (there are bigger fish to fry). But I mention it in reaction to what Lighter said about verses not being good. And to say: I'm less inclined to speculate that Patterson made up verses and more inclined to believe he copied them from print sources. I find it very hard to believe, in light of all other data about chanties, that Patterson's "hauling chanty" was something that was sung, but all I can speculate as an alternative is that he read somewhere that "Sacramento" could also be a hauling chanty and he tried to imagine how that might be. (Why it wouldn't just be the usual song minus the grand chorus is puzzling.) At least Hugill knew not to put Patterson's "hauling" version in his book!


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 04:44 PM

In one place Hugill actually expressed skepticism of Patterson's versions, even though he quoted them.

I've no doubt at all that Patterson, who did spend some time on shipboard, randomly "improved" some of his texts, though some of the lyrics are senseless enough to be real, if extemporized.

Why he did so, I don't know, since the extra choruses aren't even interesting! (Davis did a much better job of prettifying!)


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 04:02 PM

Gibb Sahib

Yes, I had more issues with this shanty. The first issue was, is that Stan Hugill gives a description of this song and the first verse, but he seems to treat this shanty for capstan. So I did found the original book, and... My very eyes were even bigger when I discovered not one only two, songs one described as: "this song as 'Capstan.'", and another labeled: "The same: as a hauling chanty'". My question is:
If Stan Hugill gave this song as another version of "Sacramento", the usual capstan shanty, why he didn't provide the first matched type example? And he gave another "Hauling one instead.

About the type of hauling, well I did approach the other way round, probably will be harder if I knew Patterson was a poet. So my approach was: here shanty, you figure out how it works, and in first thought was must be halyard. So option, in this case, was, one pulse a chorus line, or one in first and two in second, and this option with tweaked of accent was work, and kinda match intuitively for me. The funny story I called to my mentor and friend Simon Spalding, and in the first thought, He has exact same intuition :)

What I also discover in Stan Hugill's book, he sometimes gives not exact titles of reference books, so sometimes it complicates things for me.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 10:59 PM

Shogun,

That seems like a very unlikely halyard song, ha! Good job trying to figure something out! I have no idea how I would know to work (haul) with that. It's so complicated. My thinking is: 99 or so percent of "halyard" chanties have the same form, so why would we have these kind of outliers? The other 1% are "short drag" or "hand over hand" form used at halyards, or else, theoretically, the regular halyard form yet with only 1 (rather than 2) pulls per chorus.

I figured Patterson was just a poet, who was including some chanty texts in his anthology of sea-themed poetry. It doesn't look like he really knew chanties or else, if he did, he changed what he knew to appear as "literature" for readers.

Here is one of many places where I think Hugill had no business quoting a source. Hugill, I think, should have been more critical of sources like this instead of saying (as it seems) "I found some verses in a book and I'll just accept them to be a quality representation of chanty tradition."

Hugill threw in "everything but the kitchen sink," as if to try to be thorough, but in actuality (my opinion) creating confusion by not being more judicious.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 04:54 PM

069 - Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Halyard version) - (WITH PRESENTATION)

EN
Patterson's version is like Patterson's shanties, unusual. The first difficulty is that Patterson in his book doesn't give us music. In almost every his shanty he inserts short refrains where usually no refrain existed. Stan Hugill says that Patterson called his shanty 'hauling song', and gives us one stanza, but is not entirely true, because Patterson (J. E. Patterson "The Sea's Anthology" 1913) labeled this song as 'Capstan.' and give three verses, and after these three verses, he gives another 4 verses under the label "The same: as a hauling chanty'". So this song will be 'hauling song', particularly the Halyard shanty Capstan version I will sing separately.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Halyard version)


Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
    - With a HOOdah!
Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
    - With a HOOdah, hoodah-DAY!

Blow, boys, blow, for Californi-O
    - With a HOOdah!
There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - On the BANks of Sacramen-TO!

                     *2*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows
    - With a hoodah!
We came to a land where the cocktail flows
    - With a hoodah, hoodah-DAY!

Blow, boys, blow, for Californi-O
    - With a hoodah!
There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - On the BANks of Sacramen-TO!

                     *3*
We came to a river where we couldn't get across
    - With a hoodah!
And the plenty of gold, as I'll have you told, Was a bully, bully loss
    - With a hoodah, hoodah-DAY!

Blow, boys, blow, for Californi-O
    - With a hoodah!
There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - On the BANks of Sacramen-TO!


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 03:15 AM

068 - Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Capstan version)

EN
This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
Patterson's version is like Patterson's shanties, unusual. The first difficulty is that Patterson in his book doesn't give us music. In almost every his shanty he inserts short refrains where usually no refrain existed. Stan Hugill says that Patterson called his shanty 'hauling song', and gives us one stanza, but is not entirely true, because Patterson (J. E. Patterson "The Sea's Anthology" 1913) labeled this song as 'Capstan.' and give three verses, and after these three verses, he gives another 4 verses under the label "The same: as a hauling chanty'". So this song will be 'Capstan.' Hauling version I will sing separately.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Capstain version)


Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
   - To me hoodah, hoodah, O!

   - Blow, my bully-boys, blow,
   - For Californi-O !
   - There's plenty of gold,
   - So I've been told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento!

               *2*
In the Black Ball Line I served my time
In the Black Ball Line I served my time!

               *3*
O that was the line for cracking it on
O that was the line for cracking it on


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 11:23 AM

Steve Gardham

Fully agree with you, this is the reason, why I try do not to omit any of them, and the only way to bring them back is to understand work where was used. If we want to keep the legacy of shanties, we have to sing them as it is, without any interpretations or twicks.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 11:19 AM

There are a lot of issues, why shanties been forgotten in the first place at the end of the XIX, century. The revival in Grand Halls just confirmed misunderstanding shanties and forebitters.
Probably the biggest issue from mentioned time till now is that people still think music in terms of correction of notes is the really important thing in shanties. I think these things: music (i.e. melody or notes correction), and lyrics as well, are really think what nobody much cares about it, on the ship. Shantymen and shanties had a completely different role, the rough catching melody, and chorus were enough to do the role, namely, gives much better team effort in work.

So I list here those things, that can help understand the case, from my point of view:

1. Lyrics - important somehow for shantyman to carry over singing during the job. Sometimes it was hours, maybe days, depend on for example how leaky the ship it was, so to have tones of different "versions" of one song could help, especially when the crew doesn't know many melodies, this kind of using "versions" gives us great robustness. But lyrics were completely not important for the gang, of course, bawdy verses can cheer up devastated crew, theme or "version", can involve more sailor mentally into, so he can forget sometimes about his rough life which was good for him. But nobody cares about, unified version, which is significant or valuable from any research or academic point of view.

2. Tempo - the most important factor of any shanty, tempo gives preset for readiness for work, work pulses were the only way to move work forward better, and save power as well for next work. Here the center of shanty sense of existence happens. To singing shanty really authentically mean how close we can be to recreate those work pulses. If to achieve this ultimate goal we have to sacrifice melody, music notes, that's fine.

3. Melody - or music notes, important only to moment when sailors and shantyman can remember the rough pattern of melody. If the note goes up or down, or they sometimes not in point, or brother of Stan Hugill type it not exact? It doesn't matter, in the list of priorities they even not on the list of most important things.

4. Work - in this point I want to state is that in my opinion, shanty wasn't the most important thing to do jobs on the ship. Shanty it was just a helper, the significant helper but only helper. The shanties helped not only physically, I think help mentally as well.

5. Pronunciation or dialect - I think, all shanties in foreign Languages are especially exposed to extinction. My tryouts and also Gibb Sahib tryouts, to recreate those versions are really important, and mistakes in pronunciation are don't matter much, as long as we try to do everything to be close as possible for us, to the original pronunciation.

6. Recreation - This is my ultimate aim, to recreate all songs from Stan Hugill's "Shanties From the Seven Seas", and because it is His book, and his story, I take his approach versions, comments, and point of view. I do not judge him, I do not glorifying him or underestimate him. The process of my work is to: take a song, write lyrics for learning, write music notes from books, make audio file, if I have recorded version(only if the song is recorded by himself), it takes precedence over notes from the book. And after this, I try to understand as much as possible about work on what shanty is used. And after I put together all those things together, and I'm confident enough, I make a record and put it on YouTube with descriptions, and lyrics.

7. Personal opinions - I do everything to not involve my opinions in the recreation process, I do not judge which songs, verses, or versions should be sing, and which one I can omit. The general approach is, every version that is mention, I try to recreate, with a small addition from my site, namely: when Stan Hugill gives only one verse from the different collector, I try to find mentioned version and sing it in full, example, the beautiful full song 060 - A Long Time Ago (Gordon Hitchcock version). Same thing I will do on time when I will try to recreate songs from the next books (Colcord, Doerflinger...).


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 09:55 AM

I think there are also massive differences beyond the obvious between hauling and heaving chanties. They almost cover overlapping different eras and have obvious structural differences. This is only an opinion but I think the heaving chanties had more stable texts despite the leader having longer to think up the next line. The fact that some hauling chanties appear to have a stable narrative or catalogue structure is more down to the published edited versions than what was actually sung and improvised. I'm thinking of Boney, Whiskey, Reuben Ranzo and perhaps a few others. On the other hand chanties like Sally Brown which are amongst the oldest have had a much longer period to evolve some stable stock verses.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 09:19 AM

One reason chanteys may have been ignored for so long is that they were typically inconclusive and incoherent, often with lines "plagiarized" from popular songs or improvised on the spur of the moment. Rhyme was desirable but mot required.

That may be one reason for the lubberly "chant" pronunciation and the spelling "chanties." They struck the average person more as odd chants than as songs anyone would sing for pleasure (and of course they weren't normally sing for pleasure, even by chanteymen.)

More structured, narrative chanteys, like some versions of "Blow the Man Down" and even "A-Roving," leant themselves to more stable rhymes and less extensive improvisation.

I suspect that sometimes a chanteyman felt he was "singing a song" (repeating, more or less accurately, a set of lyrics) and other times just singing rhymes.

Of course, Gibb has more experience singing chanteys in a determinedly trad, improvisatorial manner than just about anyone.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 10:26 PM

"Cape Horn theme" is a construct of Hugill's mind that he's bringing to the table, as he evidently felt it was a neat and/or compelling way to organize.

1. J. C. Colcord "Songs of American Sailormen" (1938)

A bully ship and a bully crew,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da!
A bully mate and a captain too,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da-day!

[THIS IS A GENERIC VERSE]

       *2*
Round Cape Horn in the month of May,
Round Cape Horn in the month of May

[THIS IS CAPE HORN]

       *3*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows,
We came to a land where the cocktail flows

[GENERIC]

       *4*
Came to a river and I couldn't get across,
Jumped on a slaver* and I thought he was hoss

[THIS IS FROM "POOR OLD MAN," A MINSTREL VERSE]


3. F. P. Harlow "The Making Of A Sailor" (1928)

Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! hoodah day!

[THIS IS "DE CAMPTOWN LADIES"]

       *2*
A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate and a skipper too.

[GENERIC]

       *3*
Oh, New York's race track, where we stood,
We bet on all they said was good.

[DE CAMPTOWN LADIES (RACE TRACK)]

       *4*
Our watch, our shoes and every rag,
But lost our money on a bob-tail nag.

[DE CAMPTOWN LADIES]

       *5*
Our money all gone we shipped to go
Around Cape Horn, where strong wids blow.

[CAPE HORN]

       *6*
We're bound for Californi-o;
For gold and banks of sacramento.
[GOLD RUSH - COULD RELATE TO CAPE HORN]


5. W. M. Doerflinger "Shantymen and Shantyboys! (1951)

It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - With me hoodah, and me hoodah,
It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - A with me hoodah, hoodah ay!

[GOLD RUSH]

       *2*
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
[CAPE HORN]

We sailed away one day in May,
And when we came out into the Bay,
[GOLD RUSH, MAYBE CAPE HORN]

       *4*
We got into Bay and then did sail!
We got into Bay and then did sail!
[REMAINING VERSES COULD BE CAPE HORN, BUT ALSO GENERIC]

So the only one of these that arguably sticks to "Cape Horn" related stuff is the last one.

Hugill sorted the verses into "versions" by presenting each as if they were exclusively devoted to a single theme. As someone who has sung chanties many times, and never sings them the same way twice, I find this hard to believe. It's just not how the brain works, of an improvising musician. You're thinking of "Sacremento" from the chorus, so maybe you singing about Frisco Bay. Then you're thinking of "De Camptown Ladies" (the original melody) so you steal a line from that. Then the minstrel quality of "De Camptown Ladies" sets your mind on other minstrel-style verses, so you go into "Poor Old Man." Then you fill time with a generic verse like "Was you every down Mobile Bay." Then, "Bay" puts your mind on another rhyme you've heard, "90 days is damn good pay"..."I thought I heard my captain say"..."A dollar a day won't pay my way", and on and on.
That's why, myself, I didn't feel it was necessary to sing every solo verse Hugill put down on the page. I consider them as the broader "language of chanties" and a pool from which to draw. Which verses I come up with don't change the chanty to one version or another. I see the true variations in terms of melodies and chorus lyrics.

I think it's worth learning/studying the verses of Hugill to acquire that "language." But I discard Hugill's analysis because I don't think he was equipped to analyze and I'm frustrated by how he clouded his life experiences and his reading and presented that as research. I also cloud my experiences with what I've read for performing. "Anything goes" when singing. Research is different :)


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM

Figures! Doesn't alter the anomally. Interesting that one line ended up in chanties 'Long-tailed filly and the big black oss'.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:49 PM

Steve, if that's how they sang it, it's because that's Stephen Foster wrote it!

https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/067/015


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 02:39 PM

Steve Gardham

This is a very fair point, and of course, again something that I will even never notice, I will never notice differences and catches this Pseudo Minstrels, not African-American. Maybe we can find somebody who knows more about it, this is so intriguing.

About rewrite history, well this probably happens as well, but if there is no evidence, what we can do?

And lastly, my aim is to get to the recreation of authentic shanties, as close to original as possible to me, so really the nice will be, to have representant of each language and dialect, what possible in songs are written in "Shanties From the Seven Seas". And I am so happy to have You and Gibb and hope other members dive into the case as deep as I can.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 12:18 PM

Hi Shogun
Sacramento D. This is absolutely the pseudo lingo of the Minstrels, not African-American as such, although I would like an African American to pronounce on that. Why would a chantyman be singing in this sort of stage language is a question we need to ask, even latter-day around the capstan.

Another point to notice is that the verses are in Minstrel lingo but the chorus isn't..no 'On de banks ob de Sacramento'.

Yes, at one point Stan was a latter-day chantyman, but he was also a writer, performer, historian, collector, lecturer, etc. He was also around at the time of Bert Lloyd when rewriting history was the norm.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM

67 - Sacramento (D)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
This is the "Camptown Races" version.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 110, 111).



Sacramento D

Camptown ladies sing this song,
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah!
Camptown race-track's five miles long.
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day!

   - Blow, boys, blow!
   - For Californ-eye-O!
   - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told,
   - On the banks o' the Sacramento

          *2*
Go down dar wid me hat caved in,
Come back home with me pockets full o' tin.

          *3*
De long-tailed filly an' de big black hoss,
Dey fly de track an' dey both cut ac ross.

          *4*
De blind hoss stickin' in a big mud hole,
Can't touch bottom wid a ten-foot pole.

          *5*
Ol' muley cow come out on de track,
De bob he fling her ober his back.

          *6*
Den fly along like a raiload car,
Runnin' a race wid a shootin' star.

          *7*
De sorrel hoss he's got a cough,
An' his rider's drunk in de ol' hay-loft.

          *8*
Dere's fourteen hosses in dis race,
Ah'm snug in de saddle an' got a good brace.

          *9*
De bobtail hoss she cain't be beat,
Runnin' around in a two-mile heat.

          *10*
Ah put me money on de bob-tail nag,
Somebody bet on de one-eyed lag.

          *11*
I win me money on de bobtail nag,
An' carry it home in de ol' tow-bag.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 11:13 AM

Gibb Sahib

I'm very interested in, what evidence you used to create a theory about Stan Hugill's "Cape Horn" version of Sacramento. I do not know any evidence to prove is that this version of "Sacramento" is fake. Even more than this, he explicitly says: "The most popular version was the Cape Horn one. It was probably the original one..."

"He may even have put some of his own verses" - Well, I don't want to use argument what you mentioned in your book "If Hugill says is good enough to me", but Stan Hugill was a shantyman in a real shanty environment, and if he sang extra verse or two, they became a shanty verse. So now is the question is, isn't this way shanty been created? So yes, this is the advantage of Stan Hugill, namely if He invents some verse or shanty, as a shantyman, it automatically becomes shanty as soon as first time been used for work.

Of course, we can dispute about did he do this compilation of the verses after, when he did not sail already, but this is pointless unless we have evidence.

But now we have an additional question, is that the "Cape Horn" theme, been unusual for this shanty? I did research on My library, and I get interesting findings. What I found is that the "Cape Horn" theme appears only in American Collectors: Colcord, Harlow, and Doerflinger, in English Collectors: Ferris and Tozer, Smith, Sharp and in their books theme not exist, exception is Stan Hugill.


If anyone wants to analyze those "Cape Horn" theme mentioned collectors, here I retyped them down:




"Cape Horn" related versions of Sacramento:

1. J. C. Colcord "Songs of American Sailormen" (1938)

A bully ship and a bully crew,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da!
A bully mate and a captain too,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da-day!

   - Then blow, ye winds, Hi-oh,
   - For Californy O!
   - There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - on the banks of Sacramento!

        *2*
Round Cape Horn in the month of May,
Round Cape Horn in the month of May

        *3*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows,
We came to a land where the cocktail flows

        *4*
Came to a river and I couldn't get across,
Jumped on a slaver* and I thought he was hoss





2. J. C. Colcord "Roll And Go" (1924)

   - same as in "Songs of American Sailormen"





3. F. P. Harlow "The Making Of A Sailor" (1928)

Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! hoodah day!

   - Then it's blow, my buly boys, blow,
   - for Californio,
   - There's plenty of gold so I've been told
   - on the banks of Sacramento.

        *2*
A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate and a skipper too.

        *3*
Oh, New York's race track, where we stood,
We bet on all they said was good.

        *4*
Our watch, our shoes and every rag,
But lost our money on a bob-tail nag.

        *5*
Our money all gone we shipped to go
Around Cape Horn, where strong wids blow.

        *6*
We're bound for Californi-o;
For gold and banks of sacramento.





4. F. P. Harlow "Chanteying aboard American Ships" (1962)

   - same as in "The Making Of A Sailor"






5. W. M. Doerflinger "Shantymen and Shantyboys! (1951)

It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - With me hoodah, and me hoodah,
It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - A with me hoodah, hoodah ay!

   - Blow, boys, blow,
   - for Californi-aj! Ah,
   - there is lots of gold, oh, so I've been told,
   - Upon the banks of the Sacramento

        *2*
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
Were Going around the Horn and home again!

        *3*
We sailed away one day in May,
And when we came out into the Bay,

        *4*
We got into Bay and then did sail!
We got into Bay and then did sail!

        *5*
Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail
Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail

        *6*
Now we came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail,
We came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail,

        *7*
We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind,
We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind

        *8*
Now, when our sail were full on every stay,
With our old sails and every stay,

        *9*
She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose!
She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose!

        *10*
Now, our royals one day we took them in,
Our royals one day we took them in

        *11*
Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow,
Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow

        *12*
We climbed for days and we climbed for a week!
We climbed for days and we climbed for a week!


About the use word "Version", well is just a word that represents a description of the singular unit, which Stan Hugill decides to mention as something that existed stand alone. I don't want to change it, but if you want, I can use the word: variation, option. Stan Hugill uses the word "Version", and I try to recreate songs from his book, so sensible to me is use it.

About: "My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs."
I used the phrase: "Stan Hugill thing, this version was the original one" so I think is, neutral enough. In all descriptions of my recreations, I try to put as much as possible of Stan Hugill and none myself as much as possible.




Steve Gardham

"'I'm really skeptical of calling anything a "version" in chanties.'
???? Me too"

I do understand this point of view. I think you cannot say it was a freeze "version" of the particular shanty, and nobody never added or took off from it because is prohibited. I think shanty have in their nature the flexibility to be changed by the shantymen, length of verses, add some unique verse, about the ship, He sails currently, and so on.

But I think is not a good idea to go to extreme relativism, and say melody same so this is the same song. I thig the moment when we can say this is a different "version", is when theme and motive are simply different, for example, the "Milkmaid" version and "Camptown Race", version. With all respect to Gibb Sahib who was right to say, there are exist some "generic" verses.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 10:39 AM

'I'm really skeptical of calling any thing a "version" in chanties.'
???? Me too


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:02 AM

This might be clear already, but this "Cape Horn version" doesn't represent a song that was ever sung as such. Hugill has, I think, just thrown together miscellaneous verses, some that seem to pertain to a "Cape Horn - Gold Rush" theme and others that are floaters. Hugill may have heard someone sing several of these verses together in a single performance, but it's most likely he has created a composite based on verses he heard (or READ) from various sources. He may even have put some of his own verses in at the very time of writing.

It only appears as a "version" because of how he has grouped it within other phenomena. On one side: Evidently he noticed that more than one (we hope) person who sang "Sacramento" started off with the "As I was walking down the strand..." idea (Davis and Tozer was one source for this), and then would continue that bawdy theme in a narrative fashion. On the other side: He notes that some people basically sang the words to "De Camptown Ladies." In between these is just "Sacramento," a chanty that has no set lyrics (aside from the chorus) and which can include ideas from wherever. Hugill decided, I think, that since the California Gold Rush was contemporary, he'd "file" verses on that theme under the heading of a "version." I'm really skeptical of calling any thing a "version" in chanties.

The verses offered in various sources tend to be common or nondescript lines or floaters, e.g.

Oh the Shanghai race is ten miles long
The Shanghai race is ten miles long

In the Black Ball Line I served my time, ?
In the Black Ball Line I served my time,

We're bound for California I heard the old man say;
We're bound for California this very good day.

New York City is on fire
New York City is on fire

A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate, and a captain, too,

Went to the river and I couldn't get across

As I was a walking down Liverpool street

As I was out upon the road one day,
Says I, “Old man, your horse is lame,” (floater from "Poor Old Man")

Oh, heave, my lads, oh heave and sing,
Oh, heave and make them oak sticks spring,

My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:02 PM

Villiers' books contain a lot of that type of information but they are referring to post 1900.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:09 PM

Steve Gardham

18 verses for anchor heave is not much, to be honest, I talk with some experienced people, about the matter of heaving anchor. So Jim Mageean, Marek Szurawski, and Simon Spalding, and the conclusion were, the standard heave on a merchant ship was between 30 minutes up to one hour. This conclusion is kind of confirmed by Stan Hugill in his book, on page 94 first edition of "Shanties From the Seven Seas", in the description of the: "Opsang For Brasiliefareren, Bryggen Preciosa" capstan shanty, which have 54 verses, and I been proud to sing this shanty in full. Stan Hugill says: "In Opsang can be found the other forty-three verses he wrote - quite enough to finish a long heave!".
To sang this shanty, it took me around 33 minutes. But I'm not sure if the tempo wasn't too fast.
And in yesterday's conversation with Simon Spalding, reveal another not discussed never fact about the tempo of the shanties, especially anchor-capstan ones. Namely, I'm talking about, the people in nowadays try to do presentations on traditional sailing ships, but I think they do not take as a factor much much smaller crews, also much much bigger ships. Just imagine the difference to heave anchor on Joseph Conrad (Mystic Seaport Museum) with 20 people of the crew, and compare it to heave on Sedov or Krusenstern, with not sure much probably fewer people. In this case, the tempo drops drastically, also we have to add for example fact that half of the crew was "Shanghaied", others have a hangover from last night's Sailor Town parties.

What he really needs help with is whether anyone in our forum knows is that exists some books contain information such as the number of crew, officers, and so on, in certain merchant ships. I dug only one value from a book about german ships, and was informed about the crew on Flying P-Liner "Preussen" has 17-23 crew members.

About evidence of the Foster materials, well, I do not know more about him than Stan Hugill gives to us.


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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:51 AM

That's some long anchor chain/cable on that last one!:-)

I don't believe I've seen any evidence that Foster took any of his material from pre-existing songs.


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