mudcat.org: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4]


Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump

Stilly River Sage 26 Jan 21 - 06:45 PM
robomatic 26 Jan 21 - 06:07 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 21 - 04:50 PM
Donuel 26 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM
Donuel 26 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 21 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 21 - 05:55 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 21 - 05:07 AM
DMcG 26 Jan 21 - 04:10 AM
Donuel 26 Jan 21 - 12:46 AM
Stilly River Sage 25 Jan 21 - 10:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Jan 21 - 10:48 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 21 - 07:34 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 21 - 07:32 PM
Donuel 25 Jan 21 - 06:59 PM
Donuel 25 Jan 21 - 06:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 21 - 11:24 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Jan 21 - 11:19 AM
Mr Red 24 Jan 21 - 05:08 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 21 - 06:23 PM
Donuel 23 Jan 21 - 04:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM
Donuel 23 Jan 21 - 04:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jan 21 - 03:07 PM
Helen 23 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jan 21 - 02:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jan 21 - 12:22 PM
DMcG 23 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jan 21 - 11:31 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jan 21 - 11:30 AM
Mr Red 23 Jan 21 - 10:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM
Mrrzy 22 Jan 21 - 07:49 AM
Donuel 22 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM
Stilly River Sage 21 Jan 21 - 08:08 PM
Lighter 21 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 21 Jan 21 - 12:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM
Stilly River Sage 21 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM
Bill D 21 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM
Charmion 21 Jan 21 - 09:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 21 - 06:47 AM
Hrothgar 21 Jan 21 - 05:54 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 08:51 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 08:49 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 21 - 08:43 PM
Raggytash 20 Jan 21 - 08:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 21 - 07:49 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 06:45 PM

Steve, I do find it annoying that you, in the UK, continue to pontificate about the US House and Senate and ex-president when you weren't sitting here watching the entire thing unfold on television and haven't been reading the new accounts of the atrocities committed as they come forward every day. You're reading it summarized later in newspapers by pundits.

The facts are that Trump is a criminal. And if he wrote a private pardon to reveal later in hopes of avoiding being found guilty, that proves it (and the Supreme Court will eventually have to sort it out). And I'm willing to bet he did just such a thing to pull out later if he thinks he can benefit from it. He's a criminal whose attorneys have gotten him off so far, by running out the clock. You can use "con artist" or "Grifter" or "alleged criminal" if you want to, to stay safe as far as libel laws are concerned, but for millions of Americans, Trump is out and out a criminal, and your lectures about the topic aren't changing minds.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 06:07 PM

Dontrumpuel:

Once again you are filling the threadlines with surmise and supposition and warning us in advance we are supposed to tolerate it because you are allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions.

Your previous allustion to Roman history was a complete mishmash of Roman practice and history. Robert Byrd would be aghast. You continue to shadow the character of the Former Occupant in that you can say anything absolutely anything with no sense of whether it is true or false. There is a technical term for this, often used on the now former President. It is based on the fact that he didn't respect the truth enough to even reliably lie. You seem to be too clever to open a book or click on Wikipedia.

The problem with this is that when you get easy facts wrong it means you can get more extended facts wrong and no one can trust that you will do the work to get anything right. And then when you try to use logic on these 'alternative facts' you not only get wrong conclusions on the premise of GIGO, but you can't be relied on to do the logic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 04:50 PM

Do calm down.

Not once have I asserted that no witnesses will be called. I'm saying that witnesses do not HAVE to be called. That, among other aspects, distinguishes a Senate trial from a trial in an ordinary court. In order for the proceedings to be expedited in short order, I'm suggesting (never guessing) that witnesses will likely not be called. No more than that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM

Senator Leahy will preside over the trial WHICH WILL HAVE WITNESS'"
(please disregard the guesser and chief)
Supream court Chief Justice Roberts will not preside over the trial with his reasons being his own. We are left to speculate fear could be part of the equation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM

Keep yer paws off my fruits pal. In so many ways you are like the republicans over here Steve.
Republicans used to brag they were staunch and firm. Then they got stauncher and evolved into lonely empty conspiracy theorists who find a home with like minded conspiracists. Now they seek retribution against truth tellers. They are on the edge of a ledge screaming "Believe the lie or die".
To continue your campaign to criticise critical thinkers by being critical of individuals who think for themslves makes you a dead ender. You want things like not being alone or being loved that are not my priorities here, so do things that get what you want. Hate campaigns against others won't get you there. You could stick to recipes or change. Seeing that you have not changed in 20 years and your favorite subject is yourself say something, I'm giving up on you. Instead of a friend in discussion you are now just a resulting example of your own making.
Likewise;
Rudy Gulliani is now facing a 1.3 Billion dollar lawsuit for lieing about the Dominion voting machine corporation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 06:31 AM

"I am allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions."

As indeed are we all. But by our fruits shall others know us, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 05:55 AM

Incidentally again, there is no jury and there will likely be no called witnesses. It is not true to say that he misrepresented nothing. At the very least, the suggestion that Senators will form some kind of "jury" is tendentiously wide of the mark, and is guilty of that loose terminology I mentioned. Like most decent people, I should like to see Trump rot in jail. But I'm not going to wrap up that aspiration in the sort of wishful thinking that would be in danger of trumping your justice system. As Judge Webster Thayer might have said about Sacco and Vanzetti, they're reds and what more do you need...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 05:07 AM

"This is the trial of a criminal."

This little sentence completely undermines your case. If a UK newspaper printed that about a public figure without a criminal record yet to be brought to court it would compromise the process to such an extent that the accused person would quite rightly be able to claim that a fair trial was now impossible. In addition, as Trump can't be punished (by fine or imprisonment) even if convicted by the Senate, the process can't be regarded as in any way equivalent to due process in federal law. You are making the mistake of equating terms used in federal law with what may happen in the Senate: there will be no vetted or sworn-in jury; you are using terms such as "crime" and "convicted" in a loose, generic sense when, in law, you would rightly be pulled up for so doing (it's fine to say "it would be a crime to overcook this beautiful piece of fish" because we'd all know what you meant, whereas in Trump's case you are tendentiously prejudging the issue before he's been tried). As for witnesses, the Senate doesn't even have to call any (they didn't last time), and likely won't do so, as the last thing the Democratic Party wants is for Biden to have to endure the distraction of a protracted process. If you did that in federal law you would be accused of setting up a kangaroo court; as Trump can't be punished by a Senate trial, the process can't be regarded as being in any way equivalent. Even the term "trial" here is not equivalent to what happens in due legal process, much as you would like it to be. He can be tried in the ordinary courts later. One step at a time. It's all in your constitution.

One more point about witnesses and victims. Trump's alleged crime is not that he stormed the Senate. He is accused of whipping up a mob in a speech. How many Senators were in that crowd? I'm afraid that "I saw it on the telly" doesn't cut it. Camera angles, editing, etc... Senators who were attacked physically, or intimidated by a mob, are victims of a different crime yet to to be called up. You can perhaps see how this might go if loose interpretations and loose terminology are used. He will have a legal team who'll jump all over you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 04:10 AM

The UK papers are saying that the chances of Trump being found guilty are very low, because (they imply) Republican Senators are more concerned about losing the support of Trump enthusiasts come their next election than whether Trump actually committed an offence.

Is this the US view as well?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 12:46 AM

In my attempt to inject wit I am allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions Steve.
I shamelessly write in 'American' about US matters I would not expect to be exported with absolute clarity. Writing is for my own amazement much like when I practice music. Or its like natural hair color, you don't have to like it but its polite to keep it to yourself - unless its an unnatural ORANGE Cheeto or canary YELLOW.

The house managers marched into the Senate Chamber two by two tonight which is a rare event. They presented the article of Trummp's Impeachment for sedition that triggers a trial TBA by the Senate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 10:51 PM

Before correcting Steve, I actually came here to comment on the dovetail of the events - the call to the Secretary of State in Georgia is going to serve as an example of how unwilling Trump was to accept the legal results of the election, and how he then turned his supporters loose on the Capitol because of it. He may not be charged with those other crimes, but they all illustrate the one he is charged with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 10:48 PM

You're wrong, Steve. Donuel is not misrepresenting anything. The senate and the house were in session, they had to be moved out. They were witnesses, and they were far closer to extreme danger than we at first realized. And Senator Byrd would be heartbroken, astonished, appalled, you can add a lot more adjectives.

This is the trial of a criminal. That's why the impeachment. He can be charged with further crimes, and if he thought writing a secret pardon was his way out, a charge and a trial are the way to test it. A pardon assumes there was a crime committed.

He can be found guilty of the act he is charged, he can be prohibited from running for office and he can be stripped of the benefits normally given to a former president. If further charges are brought by the Justice Department, he can be tried in a regular court of law.

There have been many accounts of what happened, and as people are interviewed or debriefed the events of January 6 are all the more clear. The story around Ashli Babbitt, the woman shot trying to invade the Senate lobby gives a view of just how close House and Senate members came to becoming victims. Men were arrested who wanted to assassinate Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence. Trump instigated this. The House and Senate were and still are crime scenes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 07:34 PM

By no means all of them


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 07:32 PM

You are misrepresenting the whole thing. It is not a criminal trial. There are no jurors. Senators who were "witnesses" (by no means not all of them) are not subject to courtroom-style cross-examination. There is no due process in the sense of the federal justice system. There is no sanction available save the loss of his already-tattered reputation and, possibly, the banning from future office. What they are deliberating is not the accusation of a crime. The vast majority of Senators are "victims" in a peripheral, tangential sense only, in that their institution was attacked, not them personally. He cannot be found guilty of any crime. You went on about the rewriting of history in the post before that one. Perhaps you should reflect that you are perhaps indulging in the same thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:59 PM

I have never heard of a trial in which the jurors were also the witness' and victims of the crime they are to deliberate.
WELL ALL THE SENATORS ARE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:14 AM

In Rome the Ceasar was the leader but the Senate was the power by Constitution and law. To overthrow the Senate was unthinkable until Julius declared himself a god and ruled over the Senate. However the true power wasn't Ceasar or the Senate but rather it was the mob. Rome is the mob not Centurians.
Senator Byrd and the Roman Republic:
The passing of Senator Robert C. Byrd from the American political scene also marks the departure of a great American character. This fiddle-playing high school graduate who earned a law degree at night (in 1963) and a college degree via correspondence courses (in 1994) regularly quoted the Bible, the classics, and large swaths of memorized poetry on the floor of the Senate was also a historian of the institution he loved most: The United States Senate.

Curiously, his reverence for the Senate and fierce defense of its constitutional role resulted in a most remarkable Government book on ancient Rome: The Senate of the Roman Republic: Addresses on the History of Roman Constitutionalism.
He would have much to say about the mob storming the Senate with murderous intentions based on the orders of a Ceasar.

The rewriting of history is already underway by Republicans.
The storming of the capitol is called by some "the people speak up".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM

Perhaps the most effective thing wouldn't be court trials, but a thoroughgoing commission of inquiry into the Trump conspiracy to steal the election, including an examination of the basis for the claimed electoral frauds.

The problem would be identifying people to run it who could be trusted across the gulf. Clearly that wouldn't be possible as regards the die-hard Trumpists. But there must be some whose sanity could recover. Perhaps even a fair proportion, in time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 11:24 AM

Islands are useful for exile, or Alamo style last stands...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 11:19 AM

The Rosen case is apparently going to dove-tail into the impeachment trial, as part of the evidence against him.

The Trumps apparently bought the estate that is directly north of the Mar A Lago club, plus family have bought a couple of other houses right there. There's also a posh island just north of Miami Beach where a few dozen houses have waterfronts and ring a golf course. That's where Ivanka and her slum-lord husband are settling.

Google Maps gives a look at these places. One wonders if they'll try to blank out these parts of the map to hide from public view.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 05:08 AM

Apparently Mr Trump spent his first day at home hard at work. Trying to find lawyers that would take his case(s). And he was at Palm Beach, not Mar-a-Largo where he is not allowed to reside.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 06:23 PM

The Senate trial is in grave danger of not convicting him, let alone preventing him from standing again. I want to be wrong about that. If I'm right, there are still options. The worst would be to turn him into a martyr by giving him a protracted show trial. Just consider that there is no charge you could bring that wouldn't be riddled with ifs and buts for his lawyers to jump on. Or you could try to ignore him, sideline him, generally forget him as he wallows in his Florida retreat. From what I'm reading here (always acknowledging that we are a microcosm here on Mudcat), a lot of Americans want retribution, thoroughly understandable. I think that you should maybe resist that impulse. I don't live in America and I don't know American gut sentiment. Just saying what I think. Lastly, the Republican party should work their arses off to find a really good contender for 2024. Just make sure that he or she is a good democrat (small d there) first.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:52 PM

Republicans that have even a hint of democracy sound like...
Waaaah but impeechy weechying Trump will divide the country whah


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

But I imagine that the evidence will be completely irrelevant when it comes to determinghow the senators vote.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:17 PM

Stilly congratulations on being first to report the coup against Rosen.
Events about new statehood or succession are impossible to foresee but some things can be expected. For example if statehood is granted to DC at long last, Republicans would see 2 more Democratic senators and get desperate. Texas could come into play and fracture into as many as 5 states. Also thanks for clearing up so much misinformation overall.
So many discussions rise to the level of a sophmore BS session at midnight but sometimes new ideas emerge to a world class level.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:07 PM

.. but what can others in his family be charged with
to nip the trump presidential dynasty in the bud.?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM

And, this impeachment has the most important part - I hope - which is to prevent him from running for president again.

His lawyers, if he can find any to defend his impeachment and civil suits, will be rubbing their hands with glee in anticipation of all those lovely fees they will be earning, especially if the lawsuits drag on and on. The only winners are the lawyers, in financial terms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:30 PM

Texas is less likely to be interested in seceding than North Carolina or Alabama. It's too large, too many regions and views of the world.

The last impeachment had two charges; this has one, and it's a doozy, because we all saw it with our own eyes on television. I don't think they need to add anything else to make it stick.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 12:22 PM

Stilly - but the trump worshipping trailer dwelling heavily armed militia leader interviewed by BBC;
so determined for Texas to secede from America,
would be happiest with trump as ruler of an independent Texas.

Despite trump being a New Yorker...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

This is also an impeachable offense

Again, I do not know enough about the American system. Could the Senate include this in the current impeachment hearing, or are they restricted to the motion passed up from the House? If the latter, I don't see the House wanting to spend the time to impeach for a third time given their other workload.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:31 AM

Oh, and Donald is from Queens, New York, NOT from Texas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:30 AM

Here is a major piece of the prosecution's case if Trump is tried for trying to overthrow Georgia's election. This is also an impeachable offense, but the one that got him impeached was fomenting anger and causing the assault on the Capitol.

And then there are his civil cases. His family is probably busy right now burying as much of the family money as possible to protect it from seizure by banks and to avoid paying attorney's fees.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:27 AM

Why don't we construct a Trump song much like a Roman "curse":

I once worked on an archaeological dig where they found 50 lead "curses" down the well of a Roman Temple (to Cernunnos), thus doubling the total UK find at the time. I did ask and got a general answer along the lines they would be inscribed with: "The person who stole my chicken, may his hens never lay, may his cow run dry, may his wheat fester in the ear, may his.........."
It reminded me of the Irish song - Nell Flaherty's Drake - a tour de force of curses.

AND ....... Pfr .............

 'King donald the first of Texas... - apostrophes pleas, Pfr, apostrophes! a typo, but I let it stand


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM

From the New York Times, there are a lot more bad people out in circulation now that Trump has granted them clemency. For Prosecutors, Trump’s Clemency Decisions Were a ‘Kick in the Teeth’

He's clearly identifying with part of his "base" when he sees people just like him, but they got caught.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:49 AM

I would like to see him reduced from juggernaut...

...to just naught.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

The prosecution of Grump is different than the prosecution of enablers be they individuals or corporations.

Fox News just yesterday broadcast that " Democrats intend to exterminate all Republicans "   the remaining sponsors like Gold, pilows and insurance are not enough to feed the beast but Rupurt made a fortune with sensationalism to begin. It could be a sign of his end.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:08 PM

That New Yorker article and the video shot are thorough and graphic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM

Required reading:

Luke Mogelson's article, "The Storm," about the Jan. 6 insurrection, in the Jan. 25 New Yorker.

The political context is probably worse than you imagined.

It's worse than *I* imagined, which is indeed saying something.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:31 PM

Yes, but there is so much cross talk between those multiple threads that it might as well be one. And so, for now, it is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

I much prefer to have a few different threads to fit in different discussions about distinctly different aspects of a wide ranging topic, rather than trying to squeeze them into one general shouting match.

For example, what to do with Trump isn't the same thing as what to do about what he's done to the country and the world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM

Raggy, there is ONE Trump thread (though Steve started one to do with Biden that could bleed over onto the topic.) Be happy if we can constrain it to that.

There were some specialized sites set up that tracked Trump's offenses that now have to recalibrate. What the Fuck Just Happened Today rose within days of Trump's inauguration, and now will serve to distill news of the Biden administration and keep us updated on the legal woes of Trump. This means I don't need to go looking for it, and as long as donations keep this site up, I'll be able to save time. He reviews mainstream good-quality news sites and journals.

For example, this is one of the items in the most recent post:

    4/ Trump rescinded his administration’s ethics pledge intended to “drain the swamp.” In 2017, Trump signed an executive order that barred political appointees from lobbying the government or working for foreign countries related to their agency for five years. At the time Trump joked that his political appointees would “not be subject to those commitments after noon January 20, 2021.” However, in a late-night executive order issued in the final hours of his presidency, Trump rescinded the executive order. The Trump White House did not offer any justification for the reversal. (Washington Post / Politico / Bloomberg)

    Trump extended post-presidency Secret Service protection to 14 members of his family who were not entitled to receive it, at no cost. (Washington Post)

    Trump declassified some documents related to the FBI’s Russia investigation. No documents, however, were immediately released. (New York Times)


I learned here about his abuse of the federal Secret Service, extending coverage to many members of his family - that has to go. And the whole ability to lobby now, that will also be quickly dealt with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM

Steve... there is much speculation on various TV news shows...by various experts and studious amateurs.. about what he can be charged with.

Our constitution doesn't have clear guidance on this situation as no one quite anticipated anything this egregious. There is still no clarity on the matter of *possible* self-pardons and secret pardons because T**** didn't try to pardon himself or his family.. or his accountant.. in the public list. Some think he is waiting to see what federal crimes he might be charged with, then reveal secret pardons and hope that 'his' Supreme Court will back them up.
   I see views that self pardons are against the constitution, (Prof. Lawrence Tribe of Harvard, a famous expert).. all the way to the view that almost anything a president does with pardons is allowed.
No matter how it is eventually resolved, we can be sure he will fight ANY indictments in the courts and hope to drag it out for years.
   No matter what, his life will soon be filled with lawsuits and indictments. The New York Attorney General Letitia James is said to have over 60 subpoenas ready for non-federal crimes.

We shall see..maybe soon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:39 AM

One can but hope. And no fun whatsoever. He is not, in any way, entitled to fun.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

I'd assume that double jeopardy would no more apply in the case of an impeachment than it does in the case of civil prosecutions alongside criminal ones.

Trump could beat the rap for insurrection in the Senate, and still be found guilty in a criminal case, and the other way round. And in either case, he could still be open to related civil charges for harm caused by his actions. And that's aside from the other things that could be brought against him, civil and criminal.

I think he's going to have a pretty busy time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 06:47 AM

An extract from a 2000 document entitled Whether a Former President May Be Indicted and Tried for the Same Offenses for Which He was Impeached by the House and Acquitted by the Senate

... the Impeachment Judgment Clause, Article I, Section 3, Clause 7 of the Constitution dictates that impeachment must precede indictment. That clause provides:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust, or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indict­ment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.


To quote from the document's preamble: The Constitution permits a former President to be indicted and tried for the same offenses for which he was impeached by the House of Representatives and acquitted by the Senate.


It's quite a long read and I don't want to misrepresent it, but I infer from that bit that the Constitution, recognising the limitation of sanction that a Senate conviction holds (that is, that the convicted person can't be punished in any other way than by being removed from office or barred from holding future office), allows that the person convicted by the Senate may still be prosecuted in a criminal trial via judge and jury. That would seem to me to override the federal double jeopardy position. The document refers to a precedent in the case of Spiro Agnew, but I'll let you fish that one out at your leisure. :-)

The double jeopardy rule applies in the case of being put under risk more than once for the same charge. It isn't allowed that you can simply rename the charge to make it look like a different offence, yet rely on the same evidence. It's all a bit labyrinthine and is highly subject to interpretation by senior judiciary, sometimes right up to the Supreme Court. I'm sure that anyone minded to charge a Senate-acquitted Trump with a criminal offence will tread very carefully, but it seems to me that your Constitution would support a move to charge him with the same offence that the Senate acquitted him of.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 05:54 AM

I am not sure how the rules of double jeopardy work in the USA. Trump is up for an impeachment trial by the Senate for inciting insurrection, and it will be difficult, even in the current circumstances, to have a two-thirds majority to convict him.

Does this mean he cannot be tried in a criminal court on the same or similar charges? Makes me wonder if the impeachment might be a mistake.

Mind you, there might be plenty of other things to get him for.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:51 PM

Cross-posted there, Bill, but I think we're on the same page.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:49 PM

Well though I don't agree with the restriction imposed on us Brits (not our gig, but hey), I feel that the Americans on Mudcat should be allowed a bit of slack for a short time. Decent Americans have been traumatised for the last four years, and especially for the last two weeks. I sense a massive feeling of emotional release here and I think we should just let that go for a bit. Dammit, I would have hated to have lived under Trump for the last four years. I know personally one person in the US (not a Mudcatter) who has lived in fear of her life because of her anti-Trump sentiment, which she has dared not express out loud. What a bunch of shit that is in a democracy, eh? We can take up the cudgels in a week or two, but let it ride for now, I reckon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:43 PM

It will settle down Raggy... right now we're overflowing...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:15 PM

Could I ask, politely, that American politics are restricted to just one thread as UK politics are ...................


Please!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:49 PM

King donald the first of Texas...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 14 April 7:57 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.