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BS: A person of color and a colored person

Tunesmith 11 Nov 20 - 08:09 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 11 Nov 20 - 08:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 20 - 08:52 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 11 Nov 20 - 09:05 AM
sciencegeek 11 Nov 20 - 09:06 AM
Jeri 11 Nov 20 - 09:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 20 - 09:41 AM
Doug Chadwick 11 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 20 - 10:02 AM
Jos 11 Nov 20 - 10:22 AM
Senoufou 11 Nov 20 - 10:43 AM
The Sandman 11 Nov 20 - 10:44 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 20 - 10:49 AM
leeneia 11 Nov 20 - 11:12 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Nov 20 - 11:21 AM
Tunesmith 11 Nov 20 - 11:26 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Nov 20 - 11:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 20 - 11:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 20 - 11:54 AM
The Sandman 11 Nov 20 - 12:27 PM
Tunesmith 11 Nov 20 - 12:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 20 - 12:52 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 20 - 01:13 PM
sciencegeek 11 Nov 20 - 01:15 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 20 - 01:18 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Nov 20 - 01:19 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM
Mrrzy 11 Nov 20 - 01:29 PM
Jos 11 Nov 20 - 02:36 PM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 20 - 03:11 PM
Jos 11 Nov 20 - 03:17 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Nov 20 - 03:35 PM
Bonzo3legs 11 Nov 20 - 03:46 PM
meself 11 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM
Jos 11 Nov 20 - 04:29 PM
Bill D 11 Nov 20 - 05:01 PM
Jos 11 Nov 20 - 05:31 PM
Bonzo3legs 11 Nov 20 - 06:42 PM
Bill D 11 Nov 20 - 07:40 PM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 20 - 10:22 PM
Lighter 12 Nov 20 - 07:02 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Nov 20 - 08:27 AM
Allan Conn 12 Nov 20 - 09:30 AM
Allan Conn 12 Nov 20 - 09:37 AM
meself 12 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 20 - 10:24 AM
Mrrzy 13 Nov 20 - 09:33 AM
sciencegeek 13 Nov 20 - 10:04 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM
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Subject: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 08:09 AM

The head of UK soccer resigned yesterday because he referred to black players as "coloured". He did explain that he had worked in the States and got confused with the terms " a person of color" and a "colored person".
   Now, am I correct in thinking that - in the States - the term " a person of color" is acceptable, but the term "a colored person" is not?
   If that is correct, it does seem a rather strange is bound to lead to confusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 08:19 AM

It is all very confusing, things seem to change from month to month and inconsistent.

For example why are you allowed to abbreviate British to "Brits" but not allowed to abbreviate Pakistani?

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 08:52 AM

Yes.. life was so much simpler when we all enjoyed "Love Thy Neighbour" on the telly...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 09:05 AM

I never saw the need for "Love thy Neighbour", those were not issues that came to the fore where I lived on the Somerset coast with foreign crew of ships and tourists around all the time.

Now, Londoners, that was a different matter:)

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 09:06 AM

because chattel slavery of people from sub-Saharan Africa existed in the western hemisphere for centuries and under several the rule of multiple nations, it is a most tangled history and word usage reflects that...

then there is both the polite and most impolite ways of referring to these people... and the logic is often quite twisted

an offshoot of this is how the term latino/latina is used... as a person who is half Italian it never made any sense that only those of hispanic extraction were meant... after all, where did the term latin come from the in the first place? but the roots of this go back to how the enslaved native peoples of the Americas had interbred with both the Spanish ruling class and African slaves - and their offspring where not considered to be pure enough to qualify as people of worth...

as for what is acceptable... no matter what term is decided upon, the racists out there will turn it into a derogatory one and taint it with their vileness


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 09:07 AM

In both terms one thing is most important.
"A coloured person" - it's "coloured".
"A person of color" - it's "person".

I think it comes down to pigeon-holing a human or describing them.

I also should say that I've been told "Brit" is offensive to some.

When it comes right down to it, it's about whether the people hearing whatever term you use will take whatever else the know, or think they know about you into consideration, and think you're a dick (NOI).


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 09:41 AM

Innocent / naïve, non-racist [usually older..] folks
can stumble using words
no longer considered acceptable;
consequently being torn apart on social media for not knowing the currently correct words to say..
At worst they are guilty of ignorance...???

Whilst genuine racists can cynically conceal their evil
behind a façade of the prevailing socially acceptable race terminology..

What a f@cked up world we live in...


Black belt caterpillar wrestler - btw, I'm a west country boy, grew up on an all white council estate
not to many miles from the coast..

Back in the "Love Thy Neighbour" era of mainstream TV comedy,
that kind of language was the acceptable norm..

Fortunately Rock Against Racism and The Anti N@zi League
sprung up at just the right time to enlighten
my generation of provincial 1970s teenagers...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM

In both terms one thing is most important.
"A coloured person" - it's "coloured".
"A person of color" - it's "person".


It is acceptable to talk of "black people" which, according to the rule above, would emphasise their race rather than them being people. African Americans are, first and foremost, Americans. Their African heritage, while important, is secondary.

The use of "a person of colour" in place of "a coloured person" is clumsy. I drive a red car, not a car of redness. I suspect it was developed to demonstrate the speaker's "wokeness" rather than there being a genuine need.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:02 AM

The problem with "coloured" is that it was used for a long time as a noun, as in "no Irish, no coloureds." "Coloured person" still carries a hint of that pejorative. It's definitely best avoided. The other thing, of course, is that your car is a car, not a human being.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:22 AM

I would be offended if I was called a Brit - my idea of a 'Brit' is a loud, fat, tattooed package holiday-maker heading to and from somewhere like Benidorm.

In reality, most people are varying shades of brown, beige and pink.

The whole thing is such a minefield. There is a 'black' woman living near me and we exchange friendly smiles and comments on the weather. I would love to know if she was born here or in another country, and if it was here, whether she has relatives somewhere interesting and far away. But I just daren't ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:43 AM

My (extremely!) black husband always says he doesn't mind one bit being called 'black', 'coloured' 'African' or even 'nigger' (sorry about that). He can tell immediately if someone is being nasty or objects to his race. He's lucky in that he's perfectly secure within himself.
However, I'm sure many non-white people can be a bit sensitive to how they're referred to, and they have every right to that.
The thing is to try very hard not to offend, and to be respectful and kind. To have no innate prejudice and not to generalise. Every human being is after all an individual, whatever their outward appearance, race or origin.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:44 AM

I have a black friend and neighbour who was born in Jamaica 60 odd years ago came to the uk late fifties.,and now lives in Ireland
She was telling me hat things are pretty bad now in Jamaica and even if people born there want to return to live they are not welcomed but are often the target of robbery etc,
all the Caribbean islands are apparantlly very different,so i do not know if this applies to any of the other islands as well , i do not think it is the case with St Lucia


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:49 AM

I'm not that bothered about called a Brit. I think I must've used it about myself a good few times here. I say yanks quite a lot, but if anyone told me I'm being offensive by so doing I'd pack it in. At one time, on a long-defunct forum, I said merkins quite a lot, thinking that it was a Dubya Bushism. Then someone told me it meant a pubic wig. Tread carefully, eh!

Robin mentioned Paki. That has been used for decades as a directly offensive reference to "Pakistani" people (often ones who had never been to Pakistan). "Brit" carries weak or no really racist connotation, whereas "Paki" has done for a long time. They may both be similar shortenings but they carry very different sentiments.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:12 AM

I can tell you that a couple of years ago, a guest columnist in my newspaper used the phrase "girl of color", and there were no cries of outrage.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:21 AM

When I was a child in the late-1940s and 1950s, ‘coloured’ was regarded as the polite word for a black person, and ‘black’, along with ‘n****r’, ‘c**n’, ‘s***e’ etc., was regarded as rude - that was certainly the case in my area. My parents drummed it into me that I must never use the ‘rude’ words to describe black people, but always describe them as ‘coloured’.

I still, very occasionally, have to check myself when I find ‘coloured’ about to slip unwittingly from my lips - habits reinforced during one’s early years can be difficult to break - but I DO check myself. So, although I agree that it was a very bad slip on the part of the FA Chairman, I don’t necessarily regard it as an indication that he’s a vile racist bastard - more evidence would be required to prove that accusation AFAIC - more someone ‘of a certain age’ who publically allowed his guard to drop, and who had the grace to admit he was wrong and to do the honourable thing and resign.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:26 AM

One of the problems with old people, in the UK, is that they simply didn't get the memo telling them that the word "coloured" is considered offensive by black people.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:40 AM

Tunesmith, if that’s me you’re being judgmental about, I ‘got the memo’ just fine. My problem is a 73-year-old brain that, very occasionally, dredges up a term or phrase from my childhood.

If that’s OK with you?


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:43 AM

"Negro" is the other previously 'polite' word which has recently become an unwitting booby trap
for older folks who are not at all racist...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:54 AM

btw.. I'll just add that I understand and accept why sit-coms like "Love Thy Neighbour"
should never again be casually shown on mainstream TV.

But I will not support canceling them entirely by banning manufacture and sales of DVDs,
or banishment from streaming media channels..

They are, despite their problematic content, valid cultural history artifacts.
Which should remain accessible for folks with sensible reasons
for viewing them...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 12:27 PM

BRIT does carry racist overtones in Ireland,dependent on context as does Sassenach.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 12:28 PM

Backwoodsman. What I was trying to point out is that lots of older people in the UK don't seem to have got the message about the offensive nature of the word "coloured". But, of course, there was no memo! No message. Somehow the whole population - as if by magic - was supposed to know all this stuff.
    For example, I'm amazed how many older people - I'm old ( unfortunately) - still use the word "coloured", and on the occasions that I've pulled them up, they are often clearly dumbfounded.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 12:52 PM

The onus should be on the unPC Word Police
to reach down from their ivory towers,
and communicate more effectively
to the mass population,
whenever they dictate the rules have changed on specific words..

.. or whenever they invent new trendier correct words...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:13 PM

My mum, who died last month aged 91, always referred to "coloured people," though she didn't have a racist bone in her body. She still hadn't forgiven the Germans for WW2, however, and booed when we drove past Lidl :-) It's always been an awkward terminological area in the UK and it's far better to try to glean the sentiment of the person using the "incorrect" term than to go for their jugular. "Person of colour" is a clumsy expression but at least it's a catch-all that seems to have become acceptable lately.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:15 PM

here in the states we had a sitcom All in the Family that was designed to reveal the ugly side of thoughtless bigotry and use humor to show why it is wrong... if a phrase came out of Archie Bunker's mouth, then you knew it was a no-no ... he was white supremacy personified, but without the viciousness we see in them today


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:18 PM

I seem to recall a spat or two on Fish 'n' Chipple a few years ago about non-Irish people who play Irish music being called "plastic Paddies." It always seemed to me that that expression insulted both the Irish AND the non-Irish! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:19 PM

Tunesmith, your post came directly after mine, in which I confessed the occasional near-slip of the tongue. It’s perfectly reasonable, therefore, to assume your post was aimed at me.

I’m fully aware of the meaning of the expression ‘got the memo’ and, as I said, you can be assured that I ‘got the memo’ and, despite my advanced years, I fully understand the offensive nature of the word ‘coloured’ when applied to black people (or, if you prefer, people of colour).

Old I certainly am. Stupid I certainly am not.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM

sciencegeek, we had a comedy in the 60s called Till Death Us Do Part, which was a vehicle for ridiculing the bigotry of the main man, Alf Garnett. Unfortunately, many of the more po-faced Brit contingent didn't see the sarcasm, and the programme was often vilified... The "Germans" episode of Fawlty Towers was recently pulled because of the perceived anti-German sentiment expressed by the Major and by Basil which was clearly intended to holds both of them to ridicule. Some things are just too subtle for the stuffy professional offence-takers...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:29 PM

Also in the southern US it is Enslaved Person now, not Slave. Sigh.

I am agin [southron for against] Person of Color as it seems to imply, nay, actually states, that white folks are just folks and everybody else is Other. Fuck that attitude, is my take. I prefer People of Paleness to put sub-Saharan African black as the default, since that is actually true.

But how about just calling people people and never referring to skin color when it is, as it almost always is, irrelevant?


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 02:36 PM

In the 1960s 'negro' was the correct word, with no extra connotations as far as I was aware. Things change. It used to be a major no-no to use 'queer', but now it seems OK for 'gay' people to talk about being queer (though maybe not for non-gay people).
The same with 'the n-word'. When Jeremy Clarkson started a widely known children's rhyme but stopped before he got to the 'offensive' word, listeners filled in the rest of the rhyme in their minds - and Clarkson lost his job. But black people can use that word about themselves without repercussions.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:11 PM

Here in California, "person of color" (or POC) refers to anyone who is not white - and it is a useful term for a number of circumstances. The term "colored person" or "colored boy" or "colored girl" is no longer acceptable - it referred only to Black people.
And according to the latest style manuals, Black is capitalized, but white isn't.
It is hard to keep up with.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:17 PM

Greg Clarke wasn't only criticised for using 'coloured'. He also described being gay as 'a lifestyle choice', which shows a considerable lack of understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:35 PM

Whereas my opinion is that someone of his age could be forgiven the ‘coloured’ mis-speak, I really don’t believe the ‘lifestyle’ comment falls into the same category (if he did, in fact, make that comment - I haven’t heard or seen it reported anywhere other than here).


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:46 PM

I like a good bowl of treacle pudding and custard!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM

I haven't heard of the term 'coloured' being considered offensive in North America - just hopelessly old-fashioned, and redolent of the bad old days. I've haven't heard it in years, but wouldn't be surprised if I did from some older person ("Bill, this coloured guy I used to work with, ....").


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:29 PM

Just Google Greg Clarke and you will find plenty of references to what he said. It seems the remarks were made "In comments to the culture and sport select committee in parliament yesterday".
An example:

https://blacklivesmatteruk.com/greg-clarke-racism-shows-british-football-rotting-from-the-head/


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:01 PM

You should have been around in the 1960s... as I was.. when black, African-Americans, Negros, colored people... were debating/arguing among themselves about what they wanted to be called!
I sat...quietly... in NAACP meetings and listened to some pretty heated 'discussions'.

Right now "people of color" is a common way to include any darkish skinned people while "black" is generally accepted shorthand way of referring to those with ANY African heritage who wish to identify that way... like Kamala Harris whose families were from India... and from Africa by way of Jamaica. SHE says "black"..so...


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:31 PM

My experience of prejudice in the 1960s was when we went to a department store with a Trinidadian friend to buy some sheepskin gloves for the cold English winter. My friend had large hands and none of the 'women's' gloves fitted, so we asked to try the men's gloves. The sales assistant was very reluctant to allow this - presumably it would have meant she was a transvestite.
I can't remember any discussions about what she should be called, other than Trinidadian.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 06:42 PM

We are all Earthlings.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 07:40 PM

Yeah.. all Earthlings... who have fought with OTHER Earthlings for eons. Some say that evolution requires struggle and conquest, and 'to the winner, the spoils'. Not a very scientific concept, but when there are limits of food, water, living space...etc, it's hard to avoid that thought.

"If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister>"


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:22 PM

Clinton's Secretary of Labor Robert Reich posted this on Twitter November 7:
    Donald Trump built his real estate empire evicting people of color.
    Today, people of color evicted Donald Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 07:02 AM

It's even stranger than the thread suggests.

As Bill D might have mentioned, the civil-rights organization NAACP, founded in 1909, is still going strong.

The full name has always been "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People."

I've never heard of any serious move to change the name.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM

'Brit' has no negative connotations for me. But I do correct people from other countries if they describe me as 'English'.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 08:27 AM

Absolutely agree, Nigel. And I correct people similarly.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 09:30 AM

Mind it isn't raelly true that he only resigned for saying "coloured" when referring to black players. There was a list of things that he said that showed at best he is out of touch. Women players don't like the ball being kicked at them! There wasn't an issue of black people being under-represented in certain depts because it was simply due to them having different career choices. And that being gay was a lifestyle choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 09:37 AM

And just a wee note to Tunesmith he wasn't the head of football in the UK. There is no such position. He was Chairman of the Football Association which governs the game in England. Not throughout the UK. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM

I remember my mother mentioning a few times that 'Brit' was said with a bit of a sneer in Canada during the war years, when there were more Brits around than usual. How aware of this the Brits in question were, I don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 10:24 AM

I've no problems at all with being called a "Brit".

What I do have a problem with is control freak individuals and groups
who wallow in taking excessive offence at the slightest petty trigger words..

They are an increasing blight on humanity...


[btw.. this does not imply any support for FA chief Greg Clarke.
He sounds like a right out of touch old buffoon,
and has done the right thing by resigning...]


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 09:33 AM

Me: Knock knock!
Mom: Who's there?
Me: Control freak...now you say: Control freak who?
Mom: Control freak who?

True story.


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 10:04 AM

in book about a woman who taught native Americans back in the 1930's and had negative encounters with overly officious people who wanted to rip these children from their families, she referred to them as disapproving do-gooders

they didn't care about their clients as much as they cared about pushing their own agenda and the power it gave them


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Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM

Early 1980s, I used to live in a shared student house in St Pauls in Bristol.
Not too long after the St Pauls 'race' riots.
St Pauls popularly considered as being a deprived inner city 'ghetto'.

One of my 'house mates' was a very middle class white christian social work student.
His friends on his course were very similar.

They reeked of condescending evangelical missionary paternalism
in their attitude to the poor underclass folks
they would eventually be inflicted upon...


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