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Folklore: city that sank into the sea

leeneia 23 Oct 20 - 10:35 PM
GUEST 23 Oct 20 - 10:44 PM
Joe Offer 23 Oct 20 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 12:37 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 12:49 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 01:05 AM
GUEST 24 Oct 20 - 04:00 AM
Gordon Jackson 24 Oct 20 - 05:15 AM
Richard Mellish 24 Oct 20 - 05:32 AM
Gordon Jackson 24 Oct 20 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 06:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 20 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 24 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM
leeneia 24 Oct 20 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,henryp 24 Oct 20 - 07:08 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 20 - 09:25 PM
michaelr 24 Oct 20 - 09:40 PM
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Jack Campin 25 Oct 20 - 03:07 AM
Jack Campin 25 Oct 20 - 03:13 AM
leeneia 27 Oct 20 - 01:27 PM
GUEST 27 Oct 20 - 03:57 PM
Gordon Jackson 27 Oct 20 - 06:16 PM
mayomick 28 Oct 20 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,leeneia 28 Oct 20 - 12:52 PM
Jack Campin 28 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 20 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,The Man from UNCOOL 29 Oct 20 - 12:24 AM
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GUEST,henryp 29 Oct 20 - 10:51 PM
leeneia 30 Oct 20 - 01:44 PM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 20 - 03:45 PM
michaelr 01 Nov 20 - 11:34 PM
leeneia 01 Nov 20 - 11:55 PM
michaelr 02 Nov 20 - 01:11 AM
Lighter 02 Nov 20 - 07:31 AM
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rich-joy 02 Nov 20 - 06:25 PM
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GUEST,leeneia 03 Nov 20 - 12:41 PM
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leeneia 21 Nov 20 - 12:39 AM
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Subject: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 10:35 PM

We just watched a Time Team episode (archeology TV show) on the island of Nevis in the Caribbean. The first European capitol of Nevis was Jamestown, and legend has it that Jamestown sank into the sea during an earthquake, and fishermen say that sometimes one can hear the church bells ringing in the depths.

I have heard a similar tale from Wales.

Does anybody know of another, similar legend from another place? How many sunken cities are there, with ghostly church bells or not?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 10:44 PM

Not a city, but a proportion of the constituency of Mr Downing, yes, the one that the famous street is named for, is under the North Sea.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 10:58 PM

The one I know about is Port Royal, the Jamaican pirate city that was destroyed in an earthquake and tsumani in 1692. There's a very graphic description of the destruction of the city in James Michener's Caribbean (1989). Wikipedia lists a number of films where Port Royal played a part, including some of the Disney Pirates of the Caribbean novels.
I highly recommend the Michener book.

Any songs about Port Royal?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 12:06 AM

When a settlement disappears beneath the water, the bells are what remains of its voice, ringing out across generations to tell the world of what was lost.

The town of Dunwich – a port which once rivalled London – was eaten away by coastal erosion until, by 1912, all that remained was the ruined church tower “teetering on the edge of the cliff. Now nothing remains on dry land.” But legends of its bells still ringing from beneath the waves carry the story of this East Anglian Atlantis back to shore.

Further north, the residents of Cromer tell of a strange noise that is sometimes heard from the sea, over the wind and the waves: the lost village of Shipden, still ringing its church bells for parishioners who come no more.

https://fromtheedges.wordpress.com/


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 12:17 AM

Sunken Bells

A collection of English legends.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 12:31 AM

The Buried Chime by Susan K. Phillips
On the Seaboard and Other Poems, 2nd edition (London: Macmillan and Company, 1879)

Under the cliffs at Whitby, when the great tides landward flow,
Under the cliffs at Whitby, when the great winds landward blow,

When the long billows heavily roll o'er the harbour bar,
And the blue waves flash to silver 'mid the seaweeds on the Scar,

When the low thunder of the surf calls down the hollow shore,
And 'mid the caves at Kettleness the baffled breakers roar;

Under the cliffs at Whitby, whoso will stand alone,
Where, in the shadow of the Nab, the eddies swirl and moan,

When, to the pulses of the deep, the flood-tide rising swells,
Will hear, amid its monotone, the clash of hidden bells.

Up from the heart of ocean the mellow music peals,
Where the sunlight makes his golden path, and the sea-mew flits and wheels.

For many a chequered century, untired by flying time,
The bells, no human fingers touch, have rung their hidden chime,

Since the gallant ship that brought them, for the abbey on the height,
Struck and foundered in the offing, with her sacred goal in sight.

And the man who dares on Hallowe'en on the Black Nab to watch,
Till the rose-light on St. Hilda's shrine the midnight moonbeams catch,

And calls his sweetheart by her name, as, o'er the sleeping seas,
The echo of the buried bells comes floating on the breeze,

'Ere another moon on Hallowe'en her eerie rays has shed,
Will hear his wedding peal ring out from the church-tower on the Head.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 12:37 AM

Cantre'r Gwaelod was an area of land which, according to legend, was located in an area west of present-day Wales which is now under the waters of Cardigan Bay. Accounts variously suggest the tract of land extended from Bardsey Island to Cardigan or as far south as Ramsey Island.

There are several versions of the myth. The earliest known form of the legend is usually said to appear in the Black Book of Carmarthen, in which the land is referred to as Maes Gwyddno (English: the Plain of Gwyddno). In this version, the land was lost to floods when a well-maiden named Mererid neglected her duties and allowed the well to overflow.

The popular version known today is thought to have been formed from the 17th century onwards. Cantre'r Gwaelod is described as a low-lying land fortified against the sea by a dyke, Sarn Badrig ("Saint Patrick's causeway"), with a series of sluice gates that were opened at low tide to drain the land.

Cantre'r Gwaelod's capital was Caer Wyddno, seat of the ruler Gwyddno Garanhir. Two princes of the realm held charge over the dyke. One of these princes, called Seithenyn, is described in one version as a notorious drunkard and carouser, and it was through his negligence that the sea swept through the open floodgates, ruining the land. The church bells of Cantre'r Gwaelod are said to ring out in times of danger.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 12:49 AM

Cornwallalive; Lyonesse

According to the Cornish folklore, there is a city that sank into the ocean centuries ago. The legend, immortalised in the poetry of Alfred Lord Tennyson, says that the lost land of Lyonesse, located off Land's End, was engulfed by a huge tidal wave.

It was a rich land with fair-sized towns and as many as 140 churches.
Some say that it is where King Arthur fought his last battle against Mordred and others, like Thomas Mallory, claimed it was the birthplace of Iseult's lover Tristan.

Lyonesse is said to have been swallowed by the sea in a single night, never to be seen again. The catastrophe left only two survivors - a man called Trevillian and his white horse.

Since then, local fishermen have been said to have pulled up stones from the buildings of the lost city in their nets and, to this day, the bells of long-submerged churches can be heard ringing beneath the waves on still nights.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 01:05 AM

visitstannes; Kilgrimol, Fylde Coast, Lancashire, England

The Lost Village of Kilgrimol might be fact, it might be fiction. It’s a local story of another lost village, possibly to the rising sea. This one is said to have been lost off the coast of St Annes.

Ghostly inhabitants of the long-lost village of Kilgrimol wander in the dunes on moonless nights, and on New Year’s Eve the church bells toll hauntingly beneath the waves.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 04:00 AM

According to the IPCC: " Since the Last Glacial Maximum about 20,000 years ago, sealevel has risen by over 120 m at locations far from present andformer ice sheets, as a result of loss of mass from these icesheets"
Plenty of scope there to flood any number of mudhut cities!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 05:15 AM

From Brittany there is the legend of Ys. Alan Stivell’s wonderful album, Renaissance of the Celtic Harp, featured a track called Ys. Later, in 1976, some of the musicians from Stivell’s band formed a new group, Ys. They made just the one album, as far as I know: Madame La Frontière. Both of these albums are well worth getting hold of, if you can.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 05:32 AM

Appealing (pun unavoidable) as these tales are, it's hard to reconcile them with reality.

> sealevel has risen by over 120 m
Indeed, and one of the areas thus submerged is what has come to be called Doggerland; but that was several thousand years before the neolithic.

A village that sank within the last few thousand years would still be only just beneath the surface and easily detectable. Likewise for an area a little below sea level that had been protected by a dyke. A tsunami could flood a large area, but the waters would subside and the land would still be there, even if the people and the buildings were obliterated.

Where cliffs have been eroded, at places such as Dunwich and Covehithe, any buildings would have crumbled to pieces.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 05:38 AM

Perhaps that's why this thread is headed 'Folklore' ...?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 05:57 AM

The east coast of Scotland was struck by a 21 m (70 ft) high tsunami around 6100 BC, during the Mesolithic period. The wave was caused by the massive underwater Storegga slide off Norway. The tsunami even washed over some of the Shetland Islands. Tsunamite (the deposits left by a tsunami) dating from this event can be found at various locations around the coastal areas of Scotland, and are also a tourist feature in the Montrose Basin, where there is a layer of deposited sand about 0.6 metres (2 ft) thick.

At the time, what became the east coast of England was connected to the areas of Denmark and the Netherlands by a low-lying land bridge, now known to archaeologists as Doggerland. The area is believed to have had a coastline of lagoons, marshes, mudflats, and beaches, and may have been the richest hunting, fowling and fishing ground in Europe at the time. Much of this land would have been inundated by the tsunami, with a catastrophic impact on the local human population.

The coast of Cornwall was hit by a 3 m (10 ft) high tsunami on 1 November 1755, at around 14:00. The waves were caused by the Lisbon earthquake. The tsunami took almost four hours to reach the UK. The tsunami was also observed along the south coast of England and on the River Thames in London. Contemporary reports say that there were three of these tsunami waves, and that the sea receded very quickly, then rose up. At St Michael's Mount, the sea rose suddenly and then retired; ten minutes later, it rose 6 feet (1.8 m) very rapidly, then ebbed equally rapidly. The sea rose 8 feet (2.4 m) in Penzance and 10 feet (3.0 m) at Newlyn; the same effect was reported at St Ives and Hayle.

Although there is no record of the overall death toll, the 19th-century French writer Arnold Boscowitz claimed that "great loss of life and property occurred upon the coasts of Cornwall". The tsunami also reached Galway in Ireland, at a height of 2 m (6.6 ft), and caused some serious damage to the "Spanish Arch" section of the city wall. (Wikipedia)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 06:09 AM

Many legends of bells under ground and under water are known in various parts of England. Where the churches are said to have been swallowed up either by earthquake or the ravages of the sea the old church-bells are believed still to ring. Oftentimes, on certain occasions, such as Christmas, people go forth and put their ears to the ground, in the expectation of catching the music of the mysterious chimes, deep, deep in the earth.

Thus, nearly Realeigh, in Nottinghamshire, there is a valley, reported to have been caused by an earthquake several hundred years ago, which swallowed up the whole village together with the church. Formerly it was customary for the people to assemble in this valley every Christmas Day to listen to the ringing of the bells of the church beneath them. This, it was positively stated, might be heard by placing the ear to the ground and harkening attentively. What, however, the village really heard was the ringing of the bells of a neighbouring church, the sound of which was communicated by the surface of the ground.

On the sands, near Blackpool, far out at sea, once stood the church and cemetery of Kilgrimal, long ago submerged. Wanderers traveling near this spot were said from time to time to have been terrified by the melancholy and dismal chimes of the bells pealing over the murmuring sea. At Crosmere, near Ellesmere, Shropshire, where there is one of a number of pretty lakes scattered throughout that district, there is a tradition of a chapel having formerly stood on the banks of the lake. According to a superstitious belief once prevalent, whenever the waters were ruffled by the wind the chapel bells might be heard ringing beneath the surface. There is a similar tradition associated with the Fishery Brown, near Kirkby Lonsdale. In this neighbourhood there is a sort of natural hollow scooped out, which the inhabitants show as the spot where in days gone by a church, pastor, and all the people in it, were swallowed up. Every Sunday morning, it is said, any one who doubts the truth of this tradition may put his ear to the ground and hear the bell ring for service.

In a little book, entitled “Christmas: Its History and Antiquity,” (1850) the writer says: “In Berkshire it is confidently asserted that if any one watches on Christmas Eve, he will hear subterranean bells. In the mining districts the workmen declare that at this sacred season high mass is performed with the greatest solemnity on that evening in the mine which contains the most valuable lode of ore, which is supernaturally lighted up with candles in the most brilliant manner, and the service is chanted by unseen choristers.” Cincinnati [OH] Enquirer 29 January 1881: p. 11 [The material in this article has been drawn from a variety of British antiquarian journals.]

One could compile a gazetteer of subterranean and subaqueous bells, although not all of them are heard on Christmas. Most can only be heard under certain circumstances or periodicity, like the bells of the sunken city of Ys, heard in calm weather, and at Romford, where the old church, dedicated to St. Andrew, was destroyed in the 15th century, but where, on St. Andrew’s Day, the church’s bells are still heard.

http://hauntedohiobooks.com/news/ding-dong-merrily-underground-underwater-bells/


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 06:11 AM

Neither a town nor th esea but under Ladybower reservoir in Derbyshire, also famous for the Dambuster training runs, lies the village of Derwent

A bit less famous is the village of Watergrove in Lancashire. Maybe it should have been called Watery Grave instead? :-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 11:57 AM

On dark and stormy nights, locals will tell the tale of an entire village lurking in the murky depths of Burrator Reservoir in Dartmoor National Park near Plymouth, Devon. "On a quiet night you can still hear the church bells chime," they'll say with the flicker of an eyelid and much ominous pointing of fingers.

The story goes that when construction of the dam was complete, a village at the heart of what would become the reservoir was abandoned and the water rushed in - concealing it forever in the depths of the lake. Sadly, the reality of this urban legend is less 'submerged' and more 'slightly soggy', the Plymouth Herald reports.

Birmingham University's Professor Bob Stone and the Department of Electronic, Electrical & Systems Engineering's Human Interface Technologies completed an underwater survey of Burrator Reservoir last year. Sadly though, they found no evidence of a church.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM

In Couty Clare there's Kilstiffin (Cill Stiofán) that lies submerged off Lahinch in Liscannor Bay. At very low tides it can alledgedly be seen and sometimes bells can be heard.

There's a very similar legend in the Netherlands that I half remember but not in any great detail, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 06:17 PM

Thanks for all the interesting stories. So far, only the Welsh story has a moral aspect - that the drowning was the result of human fault. I thought the tendency to find a cause (= someone to blame) would be more common.

On the island of Nevis the archeologists found the relics of Jamestown, but (see OP)but a nearby seashore fort has disappeared. The DH and I wondered if liquifaction of beach sands and silts could have caused the fort to founder, sink, and finally disappear.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 06:25 PM

The Bells of Bottreaux https://windowstoworldhistory.weebly.com/haunted-church-bells-ring-in-boscastle-and-tintagel-in-cornwall.html

After Michael Trewin had been home from London for many weeks, word reached Bottreaux Castle that the bells had been cast, blessed, inscribed, and they were ready to be shipped. Craftsmen had inscribed in broad letters on the finest and largest bell: “Lightning and thunder, I break asunder.” They engraved another storm message on the treble bell that said, “By name I Mary called and with sound I put to flight, The thunder crackers and hurtful storms, and every wicked sprite!” The Bottreaux Bells were loaded aboard a ship called The Golden Fleece, which set sail for Cornwall. Father Aymer de Rigand, priest of Forrabury Church, did not join the celebration and when a few of his parishioners asked him why he didn’t celebrate with them, he said that he feared that the people of Forrabury Church wanted the bells to be used to out ring the Tintagel bells instead of of praising God.

One night in early autumn, watchers on Willapark Point spied the sails of a ship and most of the citizens of Boscastle hurried to the cliffs. Chief Pilot John Pentire had left home for the ship several hours before and everyone felt certain that the ship was The Golden Fleece, bringing the Bottreaux Bells home. As soon as the lookout on Willapark Point confirmed the approaching ship was indeed The Golden Fleece, the bells of St. Materiana Parish Church in Tintagel rang joyously. The Golden Fleece skimmed along the coast, while the wind blew gently and the sea shone like glass.

Aboard The Golden Fleece, Chief Pilot John Pentire gave thanks for the safe arrival of the ship and the benediction of the bells. The ship’s captain replied with swearing and blasphemy and he shouted that John Pentire should thank the good timbers and the fair wind instead of the Almighty. The Chief Pilot told the blasphemous captain to listen to the message of the bells, “Come to thy God in Time.” Robert Stephen Hawker’s poem in Cornish Ballads with Other Poems described what happened to The Golden Fleece when he wrote: “Up rose the sea, as if it heard, The Mighty Master’s signal word.” Great black clouds covered the sky, the wind whipped into a squall, and the waves tossed and tumbled and raced to the shore. The sea drove The Golden Fleece onto the cliffs of the Black Pit, and she went to pieces. The onlookers on the cliffs swore that with the sound of the surf they heard the Bells of Bottreaux chiming loudly and solemnly, “Come to thy God in time.”

Father Aymer de Rigand hurried down to the boiling sea, hoping to find survivors of The Golden Fleece. He saw a man clinging to a spar and waded out to rescue the man. The man was Pilot John Pentire who when he had recovered his senses, swore that he had heard the Bells of Bottreaux ringing their solemn message. The Bells of Bottreaux sank to the bottom of the sea, near Lord William Bottreaux’s castle, who some sources say deprived of the protection of the bells died from the Plague. Father Aymer de Rigand preached many a sermon about the sin of envy and the sudden wrath of the Almighty and many of his parishioners agreed with him enough to make no further efforts to bring bells to Forrabury Church. The church tower is still called “The Silent Tower of Bottreaux”

Robert Stephen Hawker says in his poem that when storms sweep across the bay the deep tones of the Bells of Bottreaux can still be heard in weedy caves beneath the tide. Other mystical Cornish villagers contend that at night when the sea is very calm and the wind is kind the solemn ghostly music of the Bells of Bottreaux can be heard repeating the chime that the Tintagel bells rang the day that the Bells of Bottreaux sank beneath the waves under Bottreaux Castle.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 07:08 PM

https://www.paranormaldatabase.com/reports/bells.php?pageNum_paradata=1&totalRows_paradata=103

Cromer (Norfolk) - Off coast Type: Legend Date / Time: Weather Dependent: Prior to storm
The church of Saint Peter is reputed to exist off the coast of Cromer, where a town called Shipden once stood before being taken by the sea. The church bells could be heard ringing just prior to a storm.

Dunwich (Suffolk) - Coastline Haunting Manifestation
Once a busy port town, sea erosion has reduced this location to only a few dozen houses. The church that once stood on the cliffs has been washed out to sea, and it is said the bells still ring on still moonless nights. Divers exploring the ruins of the old town that once stood on the cliffs have often reported a strange feeling that they are not alone under the sea.

Ellesmere (Shropshire) - Colemere (aka Cole Mere, aka Crose Mere, aka Crosmere) lake Legend Date / Time: 21 May (reoccurring)
Sunken bells on a long forgotten chapel can still be heard ringing from the mere. One version of the story says they ring to mock Oliver Cromwell, who pulled down the church, while another version say they ring on St Helen's day, the patron saint of the chapel.

Evesham (Hereford & Worcester) - River Type: Legend Date / Time: 24 December (reoccurring)
Hidden in the river when the local abbey was closed for business in 1539, the silver bells still sing their song around Christmas.

Felixstowe (Suffolk) - Coast off Old Felixstowe Type: Legend Date / Time: Circa nineteenth century
It was believed that the bells from sunken churches could be heard ringing off the coast here.

Ferryside (Dyfed) - Estuary Type: Legend Date / Time: Unknown
An ancient village is submerged under these waters, and sometimes the toiling of the old church bell can be heard from within the estuary.

Forrabury (Cornwall) - Off coast Type: Haunting Manifestation Date / Time: Unknown
These bells can sometimes still be heard to peal - they were lost as the ship due to deliver them sank just off the coast.

Hayling Island (Hampshire) - Off the south coast Type: Legend Date / Time: Unknown
The sound of sunken bells is said still to be heard coming from the sea.

Kenfig (Mid Glamorgan) - Kenfig Pool Type: Legend Date / Time: Pool still present
Legend says that the pool covers a lost town from which one can still hear the church bells ringing on stormy nights. The truth is likely to be based on the nearby town of Kenfig being lost to shifting sands during the sixteenth century. Other local legends say that the pool is bottomless and that a whirlpool pulls unsuspecting swimmers to their deaths.

Llangorse Lake (Powys) Type: Environmental Manifestation Date / Time: Holy Days (reoccurring)
A cathedral once stood in this spot before it was flooded - the tower bells now ring out on select days of the year.

Marden (Hereford & Worcester) - Marden Pool Type: Legend Date / Time: Unknown
Both the sounds of bells and singing can be heard coming from this small body of water.

Marden (Hereford & Worcester) - River Lugg Type: Legend Date / Time: Unknown
An accident sent a church bell into the waters of the local river - a passing mermaid took the opportunity to steal the bell and can sometimes be heard ringing it.

Nigg (Highland) - Nigg Bay Type: Legend Date / Time: Unknown
The gentle peals of a bell are said to emerge from under the bay's waters.

Penzance (Cornwall) - Beach and sea, Mount's Bay Type: Haunting Manifestation Date / Time: Unknown
A married woman fell in love with a young sailor. Rather than undergo lengthy and unfavourable divorce proceedings, the woman murdered her husband. Not long after, she was arrested, and while awaiting trial, the woman and the sailor promised to marry regardless of the outcome. The woman’s court appearance was brief; she was found guilty and quickly hanged. The sailor returned to work on his fishing boat and one night shortly after her death, the crew watched him jump into the sea. Even though his body was never found, the sailor’s voice would be occasionally heard in the area whispering, 'I will...'. There are also reports of phantom bells that still peal under the sea.

Rostherne Mere (Cheshire) Type: Cryptozoology Date / Time: Easter Sunday (reoccurring)
Her reasons unknown, this mermaid returns once a year to ring a bell hidden deep underwater and sing.

Shrewsbury (Shropshire) - Bomere Pool Type: Legend Date / Time: 24 December (reoccurring)
Several stories surround this pool. In one, a village once stood here, but the villagers mocked God, He sent forth a storm that flooded the area. The church bell can now be heard pealing once a year.

St Annes on Sea (Lancashire) - Off Coast Type: Legend Date / Time: Unknown
The ringing of church bells from a church taken by the sea many years ago can be heard prior to a storm.

St David's (Dyfed) - Cathedral and Whitesand Bay Type: Legend Date / Time: Weather Dependent: Before stormy weather
The largest bell was stolen from the building by imps disguised as men and transported out to sea where it was dropped into the Whitesand Bay. The bell still rings just before a storm, as a warning to nearby fishermen to return home.

St Ives (Cornwall) - St Ives Head Type: Haunting Manifestation Date / Time: Unknown
This old ship has been reported off the coast many times. It is also believed that before the Neptune sunk here, the area was haunted by another unnamed ghost ship. Phantom bells have also been reported coming from the deep waters.

Swansea (West Glamorgan) - Crumlyn Lake (aka Llyn Crymlyn), now Crymlyn Bog Type: Fairy Date / Time: Unknown
A fairy maiden was said to live in the waters of this lake. It was also said a large town once stood here but it was swallowed by the lake (after the locals insulted Saint Patrick) and then used by the fairies to contract their kingdom. A slight variation says the fairies were once the townsfolk before they were submerged. Bells could occasionally be heard coming from the water.

Walton-on-the-Naze (Essex) - Off coast Type: Unknown Ghost Date / Time: Weather Dependent: Before a Storm
The church at Walton was taken by the sea in the late 1790's, and now its bells warn of incoming storms. The church is said to have reappeared briefly in 1928.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 09:25 PM

Trutz, Blanke Hans (Detlev von Liliencron)

Heut bin ich über Rungholt gefahren,
Die Stadt ging unter vor sechshundert Jahren.
Noch schlagen die Wellen da wild und empört,
Wie damals, als sie die Marschen zerstört.
5
[210] Die Maschine des Dampfers schütterte, stöhnte,
Aus den Wassern rief es unheimlich und höhnte:
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

Von der Nordsee, der Mordsee, vom Festland geschieden,
Liegen die friesischen Inseln im Frieden.
10
Und Zeugen weltenvernichtender Wut,
Taucht Hallig auf Hallig aus fliehender Flut.
Die Möwe zankt schon auf wachsenden Watten,
Der Seehund sonnt sich auf sandigen Platten.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

15
Mitten im Ozean schläft bis zur Stunde
Ein Ungeheuer, tief auf dem Grunde.
Sein Haupt ruht dicht vor Englands Strand,
Die Schwanzflosse spielt bei Brasiliens Sand.
Es zieht, sechs Stunden, den Atem nach innen
20
Und treibt ihn, sechs Stunden, wieder von hinnen.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

Doch einmal in jedem Jahrhundert entlassen
Die Kiemen gewaltige Wassermassen.
Dann holt das Untier tiefer Atem ein,
25
Und peitscht die Wellen und schläft wieder ein.
Viel tausend Menschen im Nordland ertrinken,
Viel reiche Länder und Städte versinken.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

Rungholt ist reich und wird immer reicher,
30
Kein Korn mehr faßt der größeste Speicher.
Wie zur Blütezeit im alten Rom,
Staut hier täglich der Menschenstrom.
Die Sänften tragen Syrer und Mohren,
Mit Goldblech und Flitter in Nasen und Ohren.
35
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

[211] Auf allen Märkten, auf allen Gassen
Lärmende Leute, betrunkene Massen.
Sie ziehn am Abend hinaus auf den Deich:
Wir trotzen dir, Blanker Hans, Nordseeteich!
40
Und wie sie drohend die Fäuste ballen,
Zieht leis aus dem Schlamm der Krake die Krallen.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

Die Wasser ebben, die Vögel ruhen,
Der liebe Gott geht auf leisesten Schuhen.
45
Der Mond zieht am Himmel gelassen die Bahn,
Belächelt der protzigen Rungholter Wahn.
Von Brasilien glänzt bis zu Norwegs Riffen
Das Meer wie schlafender Stahl, der geschliffen.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

50
Und überall Friede, im Meer, in den Landen.
Plötzlich wie Ruf eines Raubtiers in Banden:
Das Scheusal wälzte sich, atmete tief,
Und schloß die Augen wieder und schlief.
Und rauschende, schwarze, langmähnige Wogen
55
Kommen wie rasende Rosse geflogen.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans.

Ein einziger Schrei – die Stadt ist versunken,
Und Hunderttausende sind ertrunken.
Wo gestern noch Lärm und lustiger Tisch,
60
Schwamm andern Tags der stumme Fisch.
Heut bin ich über Rungholt gefahren,
Die Stadt ging unter vor sechshundert Jahren.
    Trutz, Blanke Hans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rungholt


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Oct 20 - 09:40 PM

That last post was me. Didn't realize I was logged out.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett
Date: 25 Oct 20 - 02:52 AM

N'oubliez-pas "La Cathédrale engloutie" de Debussy

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 20 - 03:07 AM

Not far from me:

St Catherine's Chapel, Glencorse Reservoir


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 20 - 03:13 AM

More on St Catherine's


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 01:27 PM

I was going to make a list of all the sunken towns, but there were too many. I stopped at twelve. And that doesn't even include sunken ships and villages under reservoirs.

My German isn't good enough to tackle that poem. Anybody fluent?

As for the ghostly bells, I hear ghostly bells all the time - but now it's call tinnitis.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 03:57 PM

I a surprised Atlantis has not had a mention.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 06:16 PM

It has now ;)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 11:22 AM

I'm surprised that Inchcape hasn't rung a bell with anyone.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:52 PM

I thought of that, Mayomick, but it was only bell, not a city. I liked that poem in the 5th grade, and I was surprised to see, years later, that there actually is an Inchcape Rock off of Scotland.

Bells which are only rung by fiendsas pirates drown may not be in the purview of archeology.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM

The biggest examples are both pre-literate - the vast low-lying land that once connected the islands of south-east Asia and the France-sized taiga country of Beringia which once linked Asia and North America. Both drowned by rising sea levels in the Mesolithic.

Beringia is interesting because we now know what happened to its inhabitants: they fled in both directions, taking their extraordinary polysynthetic language with them. The largest surviving group of their descendants is the Navaho. In the other direction, the only survivors are the Ket, living a hunter-gatherer existence until very recently, along the Yenisei in the middle of Siberia. The relationships between their languages have been worked out in detail: they still have common words and similar grammar after 14,000 years.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 05:04 PM

Vineta must be mentioned, especially because of the poem by Wilhelm Müller set to choir music by Brahms.

The alarm bells of climat change may give rise to less romantic music.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,The Man from UNCOOL
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:24 AM

Debussy's "Cathedrale Engloutie" I think relates to Ys. The word "legend", and the phrase "is said to" [by whom? is not answered!] crops up in a hell of a lot of these entries, suggesting facts will prove hard to come by!
Whole cities being immersed (as mooted in the OP) are going to be far rarer than villages (to which I'd add Fernworthy [drowned ?1942], on the opposite side of Dartmoor from Burrator, already mentioned early on. Not sure if there's a legend of church bells, but surely SOMEone from every one of these areas claims to have heard them: that's the basis of local legends maintaining their traction).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:51 PM

Fernworthy Reservoir, on Dartmoor near Chagford, was constructed between 1936 and 1942. The dam was built of concrete and faced with granite supplied from a small purpose dug quarry just a few hundred metres south of the dam. The old farmhouse at Fernworthy was not submerged by the reservoir, but was demolished during the dam's construction.

However, Fernworthy Reservoir did affect the Bronze Age settlement of Metherall. Eight fairly large stone hut circles and associated boundary walls make up the settlement, with half of the huts now normally submerged under the reservoir. Before the reservoir was constructed, excavations were carried out by Worth in 1934-36. (Worth's Dartmoor: Compiled from the Published Works of the Late R. Hansford Worth)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:51 PM

Fernworthy Reservoir, on Dartmoor near Chagford, was constructed between 1936 and 1942. The dam was built of concrete and faced with granite supplied from a small purpose dug quarry just a few hundred metres south of the dam. The old farmhouse at Fernworthy was not submerged by the reservoir, but was demolished during the dam's construction.

However, Fernworthy Reservoir did affect the Bronze Age settlement of Metherall. Eight fairly large stone hut circles and associated boundary walls make up the settlement, with half of the huts now normally submerged under the reservoir. Before the reservoir was constructed, excavations were carried out by Worth in 1934-36. (Worth's Dartmoor: Compiled from the Published Works of the Late R. Hansford Worth)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 01:44 PM

Jack, thanks for the digression into language. I'm going to read more about that.

Henry, that's too bad about the Bronze Age village.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:45 PM

A truly depressing one: what has just happened to Hasankeyf, on the Tigris in Turkey a few miles from the border with Iraq. Drowned by a hydro dam and, just to make sure, blasted to bits by demolition charges as part of Erdogan's cultural war against non-Turkish ethnicities. It's about 10,000 years old, Kurdish for most of that time, and part of the mediaeval kingdom of Armenia before the Seljuks invaded. I've been there, twice. The locals were equally Kurdish, Turkish and Arab, getting along with each other just fine, no thanks to the government. The most pro-EU people I've ever met since the EU blocked the dam construction for over ten years.

No songs about it that I know of.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 11:34 PM

I finally found time to translate this classic German poem from 1882. Rungholt was an actual town in North Frisia (the west coast of northern Germany) that was submerged in the Second Marcellus-Flood in 1362. "Blanke Hans" ("Shiny Jack") was the common moniker of Frisians for the North Sea ("...die Nordsee, die Mordsee"). "Halligs" are small islands off the coast, some of which are submerged by the tide twice daily, others built up enough to be permanently occupied.

Defiance, Shiny Jack (Detlef von Liliencron)

Today I traveled over Rungholt
The town went under six hundred years ago.
Still the waves beat wild and indignant
As back when they destroyed the marshes.
The steamer's engine shuddered, moaned,
Frome the waters the call came unholy, scorning:
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

By the Noth Sea, the murder sea, divorced from the mainland
The Frisian Islands lie at peace.
And witness to the world-destroying rage,
Hallig and Hallig appear from the fleeing tide.
The seagull argues on growing mudlands,
The seal suns itself on sandy flats.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

In the middle of the ocean is sleeping this hour
A monster, deep on the sea floor.
Its head rests near the English strand,
Its tailfin plays by Brazil's sand.
It draws in breath for six hours
And drives it out again for six hours.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

But once each century the gills expel
Enormous masses of water.
Then the monster takes a deeper breath,
and whips the waves and falls asleep once more.
Many thousands of people in the Northland drown,
Many rich towns and lands go under.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

Rungholt is rich and keeps getting richer,
No more grain fits into the largest stores.
As in the heyday of ancient Rome
The stream of humanity jams up daily.
Litters carry Syrians and Moors
With gold leaf and glitter in their noses and ears.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

At all the markets, in all the alleys
Noisy people, drunken masses.
In the evening they crowd onto the dike:
We defy you, Shiny Jack, North Sea pond!
And as they threateningly shake their fists
The Kraken quietly retracts its claws from th mud.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

The waters ebb, the birds are resting,
Our dear God walks on quietest shoes.
The moon calmly traces its path in the sky,
Smiling at the showy Rungholters' madness.
From Brazil shines unto Norway's reefs
The sea like sleeping, honed steel.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

And everywhere peace, at sea and at land.
Suddenly, like the call of a tied predator:
The monster turned, breathed deep,
And closed its eyes and went back to sleep.
And rushing, black, long-maned waves
Come flying like racing horses.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack.

A single scream - the town is sunk,
And hundreds of thousands have drowned.
Where yesterday there was noise and lusty feast,
The next day swam the mute fish.
Today I traveled over Rungholt,
The town went under six hundred years ago.
        Defiance, Shiny Jack?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 11:55 PM

Thank you, thank you very much, Michaelr. That is a splendid poem. What an image the dragon is for our powerful, heaving seas.

And I like the image of waves as horses' manes.

I wonder if Hallig is related to the Irish skellig. Skellig Michael is a famous island where a medieval monastery once was. My husband posted a picture of it on Google Maps, and he received a message from Google that 20,000 people have looked at it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 01:11 AM

The two words seem to be from different root languages, according to a quick search. I've seen the Skellig islands from the west coast of Kerry; they are quite a sight.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 07:31 AM

Poe wrote about such a city (no bells, though):

https://poets.org/poem/city-sea


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:17 AM

I seem to remember Daphne Du Maurier (she of Rebecca/Jamaica Inn fame) in her book about Cornwall describing The Scilly Isles as The Lost Lands of Lyonesse. The rest of Lyonesse had sunk beneath the waves.

There were a load of folk tales about Lyonesse. I don't know from where she got the stories.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: rich-joy
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 06:25 PM

I was always fascinated by writings of the Indus culture (predating Egyptian/Babylonian/Sumerian) and the flooded cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, in modern day Pakistan.
Sounds like they must have been really something!!

Perhaps Jack Campin, for one, can enlarge upon this??


Cheers, R-J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 07:02 PM

We know from recent history what Indus floods can do, but that wasn't what got Mohenjo-Daro.

This is an important one:

Dhaskalion>/a>


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: rich-joy
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:58 PM

WoW, Thanks for that, Jack!

(can you elaborate on the Indus?!)

R-J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:45 AM

The Indus isn't a region I know much about so I don't want to guess. I thought a catastrophic end for the Mohenjo-Daro polity had been ruled out.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:59 AM

Yonaguni may or may not be a sunken city, but the discovery is too recent for there to be any folklore about it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:02 AM

Nant-y-moch Reservoir in the Cambrian Mountains in northern Ceredigion, Wales, flooded a part of the valley of the River Rheidol and its headwaters. The Reservoir was created in 1964 as part of the Cwm Rheidol hydroelectric power scheme. The construction of the dam flooded Nant-y-moch farm (home of brothers John and James James) and Blaenrheidol Chapel and cemetery. The contents of the graveyard were relocated to the chapel at Ponterwyd, and a number of cairns were painstakingly moved, some of which dated back as far as the Iron Age.

The power station at Cwm Rheidol, operated by Statkraft of Norway, has a visitor centre with records of the hamlet. Upstream of the power station, a 'fish ladder' cut into the rock to bypass the Rheidol Falls rises 6 metres through 14 pools. The neighbouring butterfly house displays up to 70 different species of butterflies, while the wildlife garden has attracted 26 species of native butterflies. Across the valley, you can see and hear the steam engines on the narrow gauge Vale of Rheidol Railway.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:04 AM

Al,See here for The lost land of Lyonesse.

https://www.cornwalls.co.uk/myths-legends/lyonnesse.htm

Also here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyonesse


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 11:46 AM

https://www.cornwalls.co.uk/myths-legends/lyonnesse.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyonesse
Thanks Derrick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:41 PM

It's interesting that there are so many of these tales. We are always reading that a people's myths are not mere fantasies, that they reflect deep beliefs. In this case, they reflect deep fear of the sea. And that's logical. The sea has great capacity for destruction.

I'm trying to think of modern-day equivalents. Of course, our fears are cloaked in pseudoscience and pseudosophistication, we having rejected fantasy as a basis for decisions. So many people are buying bottled water when city water is just as good or better. Why?

Gotta go. Any thoughts?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 03:53 PM

Leeneia: We are always reading that a people's myths are not mere fantasies, that they reflect deep beliefs. In this case, they reflect deep fear of the sea. And that's logical. The sea has great capacity for destruction.

michaelr: The two words seem to be from different root languages, according to a quick search. I've seen the Skellig islands from the west coast of Kerry; they are quite a sight.

Rocks & shoals have been scary things for so long it's hard to say which word is describing what.

Old school Catholics didn't believe in “water rites” or consecrated burials at sea. No rest for the eternal soul and no benefits for the widows and orphans. Deliberate stranding at low tide was a form of capital punishment. Davy Jones Locker-v-Fiddler's Green.

Etymology
The term skerry is derived from the Old Norse sker, which means a rock in the sea (which in turn derives from the Proto-Indo-European root sker-, "cut", in the sense of a rock cut off from the land). The Old Norse term sker was brought into the English language via the Scots language word spelled skerrie or skerry. It is a cognate of the Scandinavian languages' words for skerry – Icelandic, Faroese: sker, Danish: skær, Swedish: skär, Norwegian: skjær / skjer, found also in German: Schäre, Finnish: kari, Estonian: skäär, Latvian: šera, Lithuanian: Šcheras and Russian: ????? (shkhery). In Scottish Gaelic, it appears as sgeir, e.g. Sula Sgeir, in Irish as sceir, in Welsh as sgeri, and in Manx as skeyr.” [Skerry]


scare (v.)
1590s, alteration of Middle English skerren (c. 1200), from Old Norse skirra "to frighten; to shrink from, shun; to prevent, avert," related to skjarr "timid, shy, afraid of," of unknown origin. In Scottish also skair, skar, and in dialectal English skeer, skear, which seems to preserve the older pronunciation. To scare up "procure, obtain" is first recorded 1846, American English, from notion of rousing game from cover. Related: Scared; scaring.

"scare (n.)
something that frightens; sudden panic, sudden terror inspired by a trifling cause, false alarm," 1520s, alteration of Middle English sker "fear, dread" (c. 1400), from scare (v.). Scare tactic attested from 1948.”
[https://www.etymonline.com/word/scare]


No cities, bells or songs, just a sailor's tall tale: Hy-Brasil or Porcupine Bank depending on the particular ice age.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Nov 20 - 04:40 AM

Any Mexican songs about Bermeja?

https://www.spacedaily.com/2006/090211185744.8z1tpwk3.html


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: rich-joy
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 08:15 PM

Just came across this YT British Pathe clip from 1967 about the flooding of old JINDABYNE, a town in SE x NSW, Australia, dating from the 1840s, which was flooded (but rebuilt higher up) for Lake Jindabyne and Dam, as part of the Snowy Mountains Scheme. Much was saved, but all the big old trees were cut down and the army blew up the bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLoUO4PYV_0

Apparently at very low water levels, the Catholic church foundations can still be seen .... and Rolf Harris had a 1972 lullaby about the old town under the lake, that I'd never heard before : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncAD-3_nwLQ

Plus there was this song (Jindabine Farewell), from The Settlers (the folk group who were Snowy Mtn Scheme workers) :   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIvbeDsk8_Q


R-J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: city that sank into the sea
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 12:39 AM

Thanks for the info, Rich-joy.


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