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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

DMcG 12 Dec 20 - 05:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Dec 20 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Dec 20 - 08:28 PM
Donuel 11 Dec 20 - 07:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 20 - 06:53 PM
Rain Dog 11 Dec 20 - 06:21 PM
Raggytash 11 Dec 20 - 05:23 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Dec 20 - 05:11 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Dec 20 - 05:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Dec 20 - 02:25 PM
DMcG 11 Dec 20 - 02:22 PM
DMcG 11 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM
Rain Dog 11 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM
DMcG 11 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM
DMcG 11 Dec 20 - 09:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Dec 20 - 09:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Dec 20 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM
DMcG 11 Dec 20 - 06:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Dec 20 - 05:05 AM
The Sandman 11 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM
The Sandman 11 Dec 20 - 02:31 AM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Dec 20 - 01:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 11:28 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Dec 20 - 08:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 07:31 PM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Dec 20 - 06:33 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Dec 20 - 06:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 20 - 04:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 03:52 PM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 03:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 20 - 02:51 PM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 02:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 02:18 PM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM
DMcG 10 Dec 20 - 02:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Dec 20 - 01:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:16 AM

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new.

Certainly they do. And there are few disputes because most of them have been in place for many decades or even centuries. The two sides have reached an accommodation that - more or less - works.

Before we joined the the EU (and its predecessor) we had such an accommodation with France and the other countries that fished in the Channel and North Sea. It was not just a case of "its the UK's and no-one else gets a look in."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Maybe I've misread history. I thought Britain (and allies) were fighting for a 'free' Europe, and Germany were fighting for a 'unified' Europe.
Doubtless an oversimplification, but so was Mendes' comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 04:58 AM

I came across this when I was looking up something entirely unconnected on wiki:

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Yep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 08:28 PM

When we are restricted to just one thread, it's bloody annoying to have a yank who spouts utter shite getting his oar in. Frankly, Donuel, and as ever, you have nothing useful to say. So you know what I might suggest you do. It involves your bottom...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 07:32 PM

Humouring the insane is a dangerous game.
The rules of organized chaos are full of sound and fury signifying
a falsely placed obediance.
As long as you choose law in the short run, remember this,
crazy laws have a life time too and eventually die. Some from old age and some by murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:53 PM

I hope so too. But can you see the trade deals being as good as the ones we had? And it's not just good trade deals we are swapping for pie in the sky "sovereignty" . We are giving up years of cultural, scientific and policing cooperation. For what? To build closer ties with a now deposed madman on the other side of the Atlantic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:21 PM

Meanwhile back in the real world.

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new. It is only a small part in the scheme of things but trade agreements are built on small things.

We might well be heading for a no deal exit but no doubt some deals will be made at a later date,at least I hope so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:23 PM

I live in a town that used to boast, 50 years ago, a fishing fleet.

It Then employed a very small minority of the people.

Today that fishing fleet has, to all intents and purposes, gone.

Nationally the fishing industry creates 1 tenth of 1 percent of the Gross National Product.

Now I understand for that 1 tenth of 1 percent of the people the industry is VERY important,

However in the great schemes of things, to most people, it barely registers apart from the jingoism that surrounds it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:11 PM

Rain Dog. Just because little s***s like Johnson whine that something is illegal, doesn't make it illegal. And if Johnson wants to waste money on Naval patrol, then it must be 100% paid for through a poll tax levied on fishing communities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:09 PM

Add together the fishing sector and the agricultural sector and they add up to less than 1% of our GDP. The denizens of both sectors cheerfully voted overwhelmingly for brexit. Both sectors have been environmental disasters. Vandalistic wouldn't be too strong a word. My sympathies lie solidly elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:25 PM

Most of us landlubbers with any sense don't care about fishing disputes..

There are far more important concerns in life to be coping with..


I'd also expect most fish don't give a shit which nation catches them to near extinction...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:22 PM

... especially as your opening gambit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM

I am saying threatening sending warships for a trade dispute is not very smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM

The nonsense continues.

DMcG are you seriously suggesting that the EU should fish in UK waters illegally in the event of a no deal Brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM

Apparently the latest wheeze is to allocate 4 naval ships to protect the fishing waters around the UK in the event of a no-deal.

A quick Google search suggests there are 7,300 EU fishing vessels, so I suspect 4 will have a hard time controlling that lot. Then how will they control them? A seizure or sinking will be a massive escalation, and I don't think the EU would just sit quietly by. Much less, and in the context of 7300 is is just a minor irritation. If the EU were to impose any kind of sanction in retaliation for a stronger action, we should remember - since it seems to be so easily forgotten - that the Republic of Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland is not, so that would affect the GFA border. And what would Biden think of that?

Silly grandstanding. I hope there are still some wiser heads around to council against such escalation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM

Boris's last minute deadline deal negotiations..

.. and we all thought pantomimes had been cancelled this xmas...


The EU top negotiators thought they were meeting Boris to negotiate a deal..

Boris thought he'd been invited on a hot overnight dinner date with a saucy foreign totty...

We're the only ones who'll end up f@cked...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM

Out of those who did not vote:

(1) People are more likely to take the trouble to vote on a populist outcome than to vote for the status quo. Many people mistakenly assumed that remain would win (even faridge made that assumption when the polls closed) and felt that that did not need to come out on what was foul weather.

(2) Of those who were disenfranchised, the majority (EU nationals living in UK and people who are now under 24) fell within the demographic that overwhelmingly voted remain.

(3) The leave campaign failed to PROMISE ending the right of UK nationals to live/work/study/retire in UK. Faridge lied when he suggested that UK could follow the Norway (EEA/EFTA) model when he knew that the tory party had no intention whatsoever of doing so.

(4) The remain campaign was conducted appallingly by the party leaderships. Labour failed to effectively campaign on a national level, but where Labour campaigned effectively locally, this resulted in 71% vote (in the constituency where I live) to remain. Because Labour were quiet on a national level many associated remain with Cameron and Osbourne who in industrial areas were blamed for austerity.   

(5) The fact based campaign which focussed on the (now proven) impact of leaving was dismissed as project fear, but not a single promise for the leave campaign has come to fruition. Where are all the Turkish people we have been promised????

(6) Substantial leave campaigning focus upon pandering to racists who saw the referendum as a vote for legitimacy of their vile views. eg fariges 'Breaking Point' billboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM

His secret identity is boris,
but as an inept super hero, he valiantly fights truth and justice as "Cock-up Man"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 09:56 AM

Johnson is now saying a No-Deal is very very likely.

It is mildly amusing that in The Avengers films one of the characters examine 14,000,065 paths only one of which let to success, whereas Johnson thought there were a million paths only one of which led to failure as he defined it (ie not getting a deal).

Naturally, Johnson found the one he defined as failure.

Somehow, I don't think The Avengers will be be inviting him to join the team.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 09:51 AM

Unwilling to admit that you got it wrong again Steve? Never mind.

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU.
I'm quite happy to accept that "62% of the electorate did Not vote to leave the EU"
Of course, the converse is that 65% of the electorate did NOT vote to remain part of the EU!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 07:51 AM

No need fannying about with boring stats and numbers.. it's the will of the british people, remember...

= all of us..

That's far easier for tunnel-visioned brexiteers to push ahead on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU. And if we mention that embarrassing statistic, all you can do is bleat that it was the democratic will of the people (or something like), sidestepping the fact that the referendum was the single most undemocratic thing that has happened in this country for many a decade, superseded only now by the same blond buffoon who can't even count his own children telling us that we can't, under pain of legal sanction, go to our mums' houses for a cup of tea or sit with them in their care homes...

Incidentally, had I jumped in first with "voting public" (to mean "electorate"), I'd have been beyond reproach. "More than half of those who voted" = honest. "More than half of the voting public" = bare-faced Tory brexiteer spin...

I don't suppose "more than half of the having-voted public" would be elegant enough for you. And I won't even mention the quasi-populist inclusion of "the public" in all this brexiteer-speak...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:07 AM

Well, this is nice:

The former Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull says his country’s trade deal with the EU is ‘not one Britain would want, frankly.


Fairly obviously, given they have been trying to negotiate a closer agreement for years. But I imagine No-Dealers will just close their ears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:05 AM

Steve:
I know that you have problems comprehending honest English, but:
As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?).
If I had said "Of those who voted" and I would still have said 52%.
It is your attempt to spin the figures which is disingenuous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether." quote
hilarious are they going to be bringing in cannabis from morrocco


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:31 AM

i have heard somwe bullshit in my time ,i find it hilarious that boris is talking about australian type rules for trade he makes it sound like a sporting game , well its feckin not and furthermore australia have been trying to improve their "australian rules" trading terms for the last couple of years. boris reminds me of an overweight bertie wooster


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:56 AM

It makes me sick that the EU are putting the interests of scum like Johnson, fsgarse and mogg before that of 68 million people by failing to guarantee that we retain 100% of the rights and benefits of EU membership. Of course Barnier isn't going to risk losing his massive payouts from billionaire oligarchs to do everything he can to undermine European cohesion, is he.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 11:28 PM

Loser remoaners will believe any lefty fake news bullshite lies..

Billionaire Brexiteer Moves Car Production To EU


What he is doing is so clearly for the benefit of Britain,
but it's far too complicated for tiny remoaner brains to understand.
So just shut, up and put up with a little short term risk.
Boris is in control and will deliver the best deal for Britain...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:05 PM

"If who could have said?" I was speaking hypothetically, mate...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:31 PM

The only people guaranteed to benefit from brexit
are [mainly] foreigners with vested interests in destabilizing Britain and the rest of Europe...

Farage knows that all too well..

He'll be amply rewarded for his treachery..

[though, perhaps not quite as much as he'd hoped for if trump had won a second term...]


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM

This made me laugh when I read it in our local paper today.

From our MP

"Our area is no stranger to traffic congestion from time to time. The operational plans will continue to adapt over the coming weeks and months, as they have in the past, so that the right balance between the needs of the port and residents can be struck.

I am committed to the economic success of our area. The continuing success of the port will create further jobs, new businesses and investment.

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM

If who could have said? I have said before that there was no debate before the vote
No one had details of what terms we would be leaving on. They didn't know then and they still don't know now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 06:33 PM

SchadeNfreude


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 06:32 PM

I thought I'd posted this already. People voted brexit because they were ignorant, deluded and very easily taken in. If you could have said in 2016 that you wouldn't get health care any more on your trip to Benidorm/Palma/Ibiza, that you will have to queue for hours at passport control, that your food is going to cost more in 2021, that your pound will scarcely buy a Euro even if the EU lets us go there at all, even if your cheap holiday company hasn't collapsed...that our economy will shrink so much that you can forget pay rises to cover these extra costs...we wouldn't even be sniffing brexit at all, would we? But you believed a pack of lies... in a few months' time I could be indulging in schadefreude - except that I'll be in the same shite that you've dropped yourself in...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:12 PM

I dont believe they all were Rain Dog. I do believe that enough people were selfish enough to tip the balance though. The trouble is that their self interests were fuelled by the lies told about the influx of "foreigners ruining our country".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:52 PM

.. not necessarily..

There may be objective psychological measurements of levels of selfishness,
but even if not;
most of us have keen judgment of character
earned from decades of experience
coping with extremely selfish bastards...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:10 PM

Yes pfr and it is always the 'others' who are more selfish than 'us'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM

We're all selfish.. it's a necessity for survival..

Just that some folks are massively far more selfish than others...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 PM

Do you honestly believe that Dave? Every single person who voted for Brexit was selfish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:51 PM

Not at all Rain Dog. But someone should have looked after the best interests of our children and grandchildren. Plunging into the unknown is not in their best interests and those who voted to do so were quite simply selfish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:42 PM

Exactly pfr. I always ask those who are 63 and over"how did you vote in 1975? See what it has led to?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:18 PM

Yeah.. and how many of the slender majority of brexiteers
will have snuffed it by the time the divorce is finalised...???

Hands up who's still alive and wanting to leave...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM

Are you suggesting that we lower the voting age then Dave?

Unfortunately it is the younger generation who will be paying the cost incurred due to covid. We will have to wait and see what costs/changes they will have to deal with due to Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:11 PM

Nice of the Independent to remind us of this:

Now seems as good a time as any to crack out this report from June 2019 when the then Tory leadership frontrunner, one Boris Johnson, claimed the odds of a no-deal Brexit were “a million-to-one against”.

At the time, he said:

It is absolutely vital that we prepare for a no-deal Brexit if we are going to get a deal. But I don’t think that is where we are going to end up – I think it is a million-to-one against – but it is vital that we prepare.



One in a million, eh?   Wonder how we got here, then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

And that doesn't take into account the 20+% of under 18s who will be most seriously impacted and had no say whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

Poor old covid going to get the blame for post brexit hardships...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 01:33 PM

As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?). Had you said "electorate" you'd have been obliged to qualify your "more than half" claim too, and, incidentally, reported the result more honestly. You chose a way of putting it that avoided the need to admit that only 38% of the electorate (and I too could just as easily have said the more vague "voting public" there too...) are taking us out of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM

The "attempts to thwart Brexit" would never have arisen if the vote had been remain. There are situations that are more likely than others and remaining in the EU would have been far more predictable than the leap into the dark we are currently engaged in. Don't be silly Nigel, it doesn't become you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.
And had you, and others, not voted remain the decision to leave would have been unanimous, and the attempts to thwart Brexit would never have arisen.
Alternate history lies in the precinct of Science Fiction. It does not necessarily make for a good discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM

"From: Steve Shaw -
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM
Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory..."

Steve, when will you understand that "the voting public" means the public who vote. Recreating the figures to include people who were entitled to vote but didn't, or (as you have tried in the past) to show the number who voted leave as a percentage of the total population, is to misquote the figures.

(roughly) of those who voted 52% voted leave, and 48% remain.
If you must reduce the 52% to 38% by choosing a different 'whole' then the number voting remain must also be reduced (to 48%*38/52). The relationship between the two figures will still remain 58/42.


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