BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM

at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis.

Not in practice. Only the government can introduce such a law directly, not Labour or the other parties. Labour might have been able to attach such an amendment to some other bill, but that would rely on the Speaker selecting it, which he would be unlikely to do unless it was specifically about the bill. He would probably not have allowed it, for example, as an amendment to the Internal Market bill.

Now the bill has passed (for all practical purposes) we need to build from where we are, not where we could have been in other circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM

labour - or parliament - did not have to support this deal. at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis. now labour have supported us leaving the EU. leaving the EU at the worst possible time. leaving the EU without having had any say in deciding the terms of departure. supported us leaving the EU at the worst possible terms for vulnerable workers, uk migrants in europe. leaving the EU - supporting tories to do critical damage to our industries and services. and erasmus ffs!

all because they never had the bottle to stand up to the nicotine-stained man frog. and politically out-manoeuvred by boris johnson. they are trying to appeal to the mindset of voters who will never be appeased no matter how far right labour go - preferring this tactic to supporting the views of all their supporters and all of us who rely on them.

thoroughly embarrassing

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:26 AM

Well the last two were progressively worse but this latest buffoon is set to leave them standing in the stupidity stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:57 AM

I still haven't forgiven Boris for saying Jo Cox's memory should be honoured by getting Brexit done - when that was the thing she didn't want.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM

As I say, now the the ERG appears to be in favour of the deal, the arithmetic has changed. Until then, it was quite feasible the deal fell if a substantial part of the ERG group and Labour (plus SNP and others) voted against. Now the ERG appears settled in favour, the risk of no deal is a lot lower. We might get some clue in an hour or so whether it would have fallen without Labour - or we may not, I suspect it will not be that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:27 AM

I'm sticking with Heath. If he'd done the job properly, i.e. from a position of strength, we might still be in the EU today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:08 AM

That's all very well, but this deal is going through whatever Labour do. That's the position and that should inform Labour's stance. I repeat: this is a Tory deal and history must record that the Tories alone own it.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:49 AM

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership.
The 2016 referendum took place under a Conservative government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. It was only because of a disconnect between the government and the public that support for UKIP rose to such a level that Cameron felt threatened and offered a referendum. Both major parties were still in favour of continuing with our membership.

In more recent years it seems difficult to tell whether the party leaders (particularly May, Corbyn & Starmer) support membership of the EU or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

This YouGov poll is pertinent to the discussion:

"According to new polling by YouGov, Britons overwhelmingly - by a margin of more than six to one - want MPs to pass the trade deal legislation. Even remain supporters and Labour supporters are far more likely to say M MPs should vote in favour than vote against, the poll suggests.

But the poll also suggests that fewer than one in five people think it is a good deal. Even Conservative supporters and leave supporters are more inclined to see it as “neither good nor bad” than as a mainly positive achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM

I don't envy Starmer's position at all in this. But if people say they can't understand why he is voting as he is, they are saying if no-deal happens they do not recognise that tbe Tories will claim for the next 50 years that they had a deal but Labour wrecked it, so all blame is on Labour. After all, look how much mileage they have got out of 'The Winter of Discontent'.

Now, maybe since the ERG have said they will support the deal the arithmetic has changed a bit and the risks are lower, but do not doubt that if Labour voted against a deal and we ended up in no deal, Labour would be saddled with all the blame for the rest of our lives and beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:11 AM

And speaking of the Cameron years, don't get me started on the inhuman and humiliating treatment that millions of sick, disabled and unemployed people had to endure under Iain Duncan-Smith, not to speak of the "liberation" of the labour market via zero-hours contracts, fake apprenticeship schemes, forcing millions to declare themselves to be "self-employed" (equals no sick pay, no holiday pay, no maternity pay) and the stripping away of workers' rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM

I left the Labour party a few weeks back on principle. I was a member of the Greens too but cancelled my membership there due to an administrative cock up that proved they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. When Labour return to their core values and stop pandering to the ludicrous right wing Israeli lobby I may rejoin.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. I'd say that it's not possible to blame Heath (if you really must blame anybody) exclusively. The Labour Party connived, as did the electorate.

The Cameron regime put the poorest in this country through years of miserable austerity, which didn't have the effect he desired and which history will judge to have been completely unnecessary. His hubris convinced him that he would win the referendum. Instead, he pitched us into four useless years of wrangling and a dishonourable and shabby exit from the best trading bloc (among many other of its positive attributes) we could ever have belonged to. He gets my vote, though he is facing stiff competition from the present incumbent, and he will no doubt soon be overtaken in the crass stupidity stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM

yes, i've just watched ian blackford speaking in the debate. he was very impressive in making an unanswerable case for rejecting the deal, particularly for scotland. he dealt with the 'muttering' 'lying' 'shame on you' 'deceitful' tories with contempt. he noted that every party in scotland has united to oppose the tories - including scottish labour. Not one labour mp stood up to challenge him - or to support him. keir starmer sat motionless throughout - utterly discredited. his support for the tory project revealed as a cowardly, narrow, politically cynical, useless stunt.

i left the party a few months back - our brief flirtation with progressive and principled politics having been killed off by the dark forces of 'labour' rightwingers - and joined the greens yesterday.

happy new year everyone

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:29 AM

Edward Heath. Tricked us into Europe on such disastrous terms that even Labour tried to renegotiate, with as much success as you might expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:04 AM

I simply can't understand why Starmer is whipping Labour MPs to vote in favour of this deal. When the inevitable happens and things go belly-up, Johnson will be able to turn round and say, well, you did vote for it...

This is a stinkin' Tory deal and the Tories alone must own it (I note that all the other parliamentary parties are going to vote against). Starmer was the fence-sitter par excellence over a second referendum, and now he's being pusillanimous in failing to do what an opposition is supposed to do, oppose bad government policies. He's a bloody disaster for my party. I'm considering my position here...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 04:11 AM

Should be in the British politics thread surely.

In the meanwhile my vote goes to Bozzer . "Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:39 AM

Bonzo not a joke. i understand why a capitalist lackey dislikes corbyn , because corbyn unlike you has principles you are the person whose only consideration when investing is how much money you can make

Subject: BS: incompetent british prime minsters
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:33 AM

For many years this honour seemed to belong to Callaghan , who could not sort out a dustmans strike and let Thatxcher in to power.
however Cameron surpassed, sunny jim, by allowing a referendum on the EU,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 02:42 AM

What are we all going to do with our last 2 days in the EU then? I'm going to eat and drink all the European leftovers from Christmas :-)

Post Brexit? Only one option really - Instead of remainers we can become rejoiners! OK, it may not be on as good terms as we had but must be better than Bozzers "deal".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM

.. but the real alarm siren for me,
was when trump and his cult of cronies started bigging up farage and brexit..

.. not that surprising if putin and Cchina are also fully in favour
of breaking up and destabilising Europe...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 01:28 PM

I'd have been less suspicious of brexit,
if it had been the Labour party who had propsed and campainged for it,
instead of posh rich tories, farage, ukip, britain first, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:28 PM

A bit like how we ended up with brexit then, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:26 PM

And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:06 PM

Yeah but Mr Will Hutton,apart from that things are not to bad.

It will be a good few years before we will be able to judge if we are better or worse for leaving the EU. I thought maybe 5 years but now it will probably be longer due to the huge financial problems as a result of covid.

I voted to remain and I have never been convinced that there are going to be huge financial benefits to our leaving. We will have to see once things settle down.

Yet again he cannot let the vote go. The many ways in which people like to count it.Labour let that genie out of the bottle in 1975, not forgetting that we nearly always end up with a government which the majority of the country have not voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:01 AM

Good opinion piece from Will Hutton in The Observer

Yes, it is opinion. It also happens to be mainly true. The opening shot is particularly painful

The dream is over. On New Year’s Day, the curtain comes down on Britain’s long engagement with Europe’s noblest and greatest effort at collaboration and liberty. Our freedoms are to be slashed and an immense bureaucracy imposed on us. Next Friday Britons will lose the freedom to live, work, and trade in goods and services as they choose throughout the EU. Once natural rights are to be torched.

I can do little but shake my head in disbelief and curse those who brought us to this :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 09:01 AM

"i think crbyn would have done better"

And for your next joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 06:31 AM

Provoked by someone I heard on Broadcasting House this morning (as I always like to own up to being unoriginal), I'd say that when you hear what a great trade deal we've achieved, it's worth remembering that in order to get it we had to ditch a much better trade deal, the one called "being a member of the EU."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 03:46 AM

no your country is owned by the multinationals and the land owning aristocracy including the church of england

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 02:59 AM

Ave we got are cuntry back yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:38 AM

At least Brexit has made the UK think more about globalism and how to apply it or not on a case by case basis. Overall its been a pain in the arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 07:08 AM

I think the line "peace on earth and good will to all men" needs an airing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 06:20 AM

And a merrie Christemas!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 04:40 AM

i think crbyn would have done better, however i have only looked superficially, , but it could be a lot worse, has the whole thing been a storm in a teacup.
border at northern ireland ports that is good, from an irish perspective it could be much worse

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 03:55 AM

and nobody lived happily ever after

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 07:06 PM

pfr, you just channeled Catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 06:48 PM

all the best to all the peace campaigners, care workers, homeless, trade unionists, refugees, community activists, environmentalists and tireless anti-racists who keep positivity and hope alive. and, obviously, f**k the rest of you eejits, every one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 04:03 PM

This morning while waiting for the 'expected' deal to be announced,
I had to nip to the bathroom..

While standing in front of the bog, I let out a squeaky little two tone fart
which surprised me,
because it sounded like my arse just whispered "brex-it"...!!!

Is this an omen...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM

We could and should have had a deal months ago. Both sides have a share of the blame for that. Hopefully it will be accepted by all the parties. Of course it would be nice to have some details. The devil is in the detail.

Meanwhile, the police have finally managed to restore some order to the traffic in Dover. Port traffic queuing in just one lane of the one way system, allowing town traffic to move. Still lots queuing on the A20 route into town plus all those at Manston airfield.

Rumours are that the French firemen who arrived to help with testing were seen with fishing rods. You have to keep an eye on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM

Boris's heritage - the man who achieved Brexit. And destroyed the United Kingdom.

Should have stuck with Have I Got News for You.

Boris the Bald, very soon now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM

”God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal”

Because the alternative- No Deal - is simply too dreadful to contemplate? Because, as usual, Johnson had left it until the last minute so that he could claim it’s the best deal available, there was no alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM

God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal. I've just put up with Johnson lying in his teeth about how we've taken back control, etc. We have not. We will abide by EU regulations or suffer if we stray from them. We've lost so much and gained next to nothing. Or nothing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 08:22 AM

Bloody awful. The town is gridlocked with cross channel traffic. Makes it very difficult for vehicles to make their way around town.

26 French firefighters along with 10,000 test kits, arrived early today to help with the backlog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM

what is it like in dover tell us

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 03:24 AM

Don't know about Brexit. Here in Dover we are just waiting for Mendit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:22 AM

So supposedly the deal is done and we will be told something about it in about 50 minutes time. That means now is a good time for rash predictions!

Kipling advised that when meeting Triumph and Disaster to treat those two imposters just the same. I am sure that will apply here. Some will proclaim a great Triumph - not least Boris! - but many more will denounce it as a betrayal, notably Farage and a good proportion of the ERG. Their protests will count for nothing in the short term, since Starmer will whip Labour to vote for it. (He *might* risk a free vote, but I think it extremely unlikely.)

Starmer's speeches in Parliament will all be about how poor a deal it is, how it sells the country short and is almost the worst possible outcome. But no-deal is worse, and that is why he will support the deal. It is a tricky stance, but gives him the best positioning for potential supporters, whether they voted Leave or Remain.

So I don't see the UK voting against the deal.

There is a possibility, maybe even quite a large probability, of an EU country using their veto to stop the deal, but this will largely be posturing to make a political point, and perhaps get more funding from the rest of the EU; I think all the EU states will agree before the year is out.

The deal is actually about trade and security. Of the two, I think the security is more important, but I expect the media to concentrate on the trade aspect. Not that trade is unimportant, but I think any hiatus would be addressed much more quickly than a breakdown in the security relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM

Boris: We are having Christmas. It would be inhuman not to.

Scientists: We can't really, the NHS would melt down in January.

Boris: Oh, shit. How can I back out now then?

Scientists: Well, there is a new varient that transmits quicker..

Boris: Yes, yes! We'll use that excuse.

Political advisers: Errrr, we are not sure that is a good id....

Boris: Course it is. I can't see anything wrong with it. Sorry nation.?? I have had news. We have a super spreading virus and have to shut everything.

Macron: Is that right, Boris?

Boris: Yes, it is. We are sooooo contagious I had no choice but to cancel Christmas.

Macron (and the rest of the EU): In that case we have to shut all our borders.

Boris: oh fu....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 12:02 PM

My ambitions are not so lofty!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM

Thanks, Dave. Better coming from you than Nigel ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM

Just a minor correction to that Dave, since one of the scientists I was   listening to made the same slip and then carefully corrected himself: the new strain is not technically more virulent (as far as we know) because that refers to how damaging it is when you get it. It is, however, more easily transmitted.