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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

DMcG 27 Jan 22 - 04:58 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 22 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 22 - 06:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 22 - 03:15 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Jan 22 - 01:26 AM
SPB-Cooperator 26 Jan 22 - 07:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 22 - 06:29 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM
Doug Chadwick 26 Jan 22 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 22 - 04:06 PM
keberoxu 26 Jan 22 - 03:47 PM
DMcG 26 Jan 22 - 03:08 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jan 22 - 03:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 22 - 02:20 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 22 - 11:48 AM
SPB-Cooperator 26 Jan 22 - 11:25 AM
DMcG 26 Jan 22 - 05:36 AM
DMcG 26 Jan 22 - 05:33 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 22 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 22 - 04:25 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 07:56 PM
DMcG 25 Jan 22 - 06:47 PM
peteglasgow 25 Jan 22 - 05:31 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 03:25 PM
peteglasgow 25 Jan 22 - 03:20 PM
peteglasgow 25 Jan 22 - 03:17 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 22 - 11:47 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 22 - 10:11 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 10:00 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 22 - 09:44 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 09:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 04:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 04:09 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 12:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 22 - 12:52 PM
DMcG 24 Jan 22 - 11:10 AM
Raggytash 24 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 10:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 10:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 08:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 08:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 07:57 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM
Raggytash 24 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 04:58 PM

Now Johnson declares there was no cake at all.

You think that might have been mentioned days ago ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 01:25 PM

So, following hot on the heels of cakegate we now have rhubarbgate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 06:36 AM

I love purple sprouting so much that I grow it. Cropping beautifully just now. I see that the Tories are shitting on benefits claimants yet again. Oh well, I suppose they have to claw something back after writing off over four billion that went to COVID-19 fraudsters from the Treasury...Our money, in other words...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 03:15 AM

I like purple spouting broccoli. Could probably run the country better than Bozo too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 01:26 AM

I like ‘em both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 07:43 PM

Nowt wrong with broccoli... beats cauliflower hands down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 06:29 PM

It¡s always the cover-up that causes the real trouble. With pretty all the scandals that have wrecked politicians they could likely enough been able to talk their ways out of it if they hadn't denied the facts and attempted to cover things up.

With this current stuff, if Boris had been open about it, admitted there's been significant cockups, and he'd been careless about it, he'd have been in a far far better position now.
The clear evidence that he deliberately lied to parliament is probably the bit that most threatens his survival now.

When it comes to his playing fast and looses with the rules and so fast they can and do drum up all kinds of rationales and excuses - no one is perfect, isn't this trivial set against big issues like war in Ukraine, other leaders like Churchill or Kennedy or Lincoln had some deep flaws et etc. If he'd not muddied up things with the denials and the lies those kind of notions would have been far easier to sell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM

A fart on a stalk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:53 PM

. . . and don't forget George W. Bush,
who would not eat his broccoli.


Wasn't George H. W. Bush rather than his son, George W., who mentioned his distaste for broccoli?

In this case, I'm with President Bush senior.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:06 PM

I'm not surprised. The most boring vegetable on the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:47 PM

. . . and don't forget George W. Bush,
who would not eat his broccoli.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:08 PM

The sources add that, while the lockdown-breaking offences are relatively minor and do not result in a criminal record if paid promptly, any attempts to lie, or to get others to lie, could result in an escalation of Scotland Yard’s inquiry, with perverting the course of justice investigations launched. Suspicion of committing such offences could lead to arrest, full criminal investigation and potentially time in jail if convicted.

Wow! This is a textbook example of the game theory "prisoner's dilemma" with the possibility of actual prison as a possible payoff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:03 PM

and not forgetting general uselessapotomusness from Diane Abbott!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 02:20 PM

Cameron'# predeliction was more for pork products wasn't it? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM

You missed a couple out, Kevin. There was Cameron and pastygate, and, most egregiously, John Selwyn Gummer ostentatiously feeding a beefburger to his daughter on camera in May 1990 to prove that British beef was safe with regard to BSE.

As a long-time Guardian reader, don't you long for the halcyon days when Steve Bell depicted   Gummer as a pustule on Thatcher's nose...not to speak of John Major wearing his Y-fronts outside his trousers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 11:48 AM

Of course Ed Miliband got ambushed by a bacon sandwich. And Bush had a nasty turn with a pretzel. You have to watch out for these hostile foodstuffs.

He'd better be careful who he throws to the wolves. That can go badly wrong. There was a former government employee on TV pointing out that Boris showed his fundamental political shambolism when he failed to realise that in sacking Dominic Cummings the way he did he was making a deadly enemy of the man with the ability and motivation to destroy him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 11:25 AM

Did fagarse write to apologise to the cow for being an obnoxious piece of proverbial that resulted in her milk being abused?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 05:36 AM

The unforgettable cheese speech


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 05:33 AM

Well Farage was ambushed by a milk-shake, so I suppose a cake is a little more upmarket.

Liz Truss has, to an extent, already been ambushed by the cheese course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:27 AM

Without wishing to sound like an evasive Tory MP, I wish to say that I'm just waiting for Sue Gray... :-)

I note that after seeing that rather corpulent, purple-faced Tory trying to defend Johnson yesterday, claiming that Boris had been ambushed by a cake, Nigella Lawson has mused on twitter that "Ambushed By A Cake" would make a good title for her next book...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:25 AM

I read a slightly different version

"When a clown comes to the palace, he does not become a king. But the palace becomes a circus.”

My own thoughts on why Bozo is happy about the police investigations is that a few members of staff will be thrown to the wolves to appease the masses while Boris will be exonerated as not being involved. The sacrifices have probably already been well rewarded and told what to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 07:56 PM

A Turkish proverb (nicked from a Guardian comments thread):

“When the ox comes to the palace, he does not become a king. But the palace becomes a barn.”

A fair reflection of what's happened to Downing Street I should think...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 06:47 PM

Rees-Mogg said on Newsnight that if there is a change of leader he thinks there needs to be an election. No doubt we will hear this a lot over the next day or two, since it is designed to scare the red-wallers into supporting Johnson given their slim majority.

If this is true, either they call an election immediately Johnson goes, and try to fight the next election before they have chosen a leader. Or, alternatively, they choose their new leader who then completely voluntarily throws away their 80-odd seat majority.

Sorry, I don't buy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:31 PM

you're right bonzo - i'm pissing myself laughing at them


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:25 PM

The awards for today's finest Boris-lackeys go jointly to Grant Schapps (torn to shreds on the Today programme by Justin Webb - around 08.10 if you missed it) and Jacob Rees-Mogg on any news bulletin you care to watch. Utterly laughable defences of their charlatan leader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:20 PM

'rishi sunak accidentally attended johnson's birthday party' where 'johnson was 'ambushed by a cake' Aye, right. they really despise us eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:17 PM

i don't think johnson is happy about any of these developments. he is a deeply insecure type of shite and it must be quite an effort for him to put on this positive appearance - clearly some days he hides his inadequacies better than others (probably depending on the previous night's booze intake) however, i could be wrong - it's all happening so fast i don't really know what i think will be the outcome.


However, watching all the tory creeps brown-nosing and cheering on their naked emperor does make me feel uncomfortable about living in what, for now, at parliament level, looks like a trumpist country. lets hope the law and due process can save us and hasten the end of the would be dictator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 01:42 PM

Two comments from (oddly! ) AV Forums:

"Cressida Dick is well and truly in the pocket of the lying Johnson and his crooked cronies. This is just a delaying tactic while we wait for the whitewash. Talk about life imitating art, we need a real life AC12 and the Line of Duty team to investigate the Met."

"Yes the fact the current government are so far beyond incompetent, and seemingly beyond reproach for any of the immoral and illegal behaviour is the only reason Dick still has her own job. In normal times she would now be the most incompetent person in public office making decisions so biased and bad that they would be wholly unsurvivable, leading to questions asked if she needs investigating into by a different police authority."

I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but I think there are several grains of truth there. She is thoroughly incompetent, and she is clearly joined to Boris's hip. She needs to be grilled as to why her force has so far failed to investigate the Downing Street parties. It must be ludicrously easy to obtain records of who was going in and out of the building at all the times in question, so why not? Why were concerns not raised by the multiple police officers who are always there on duty (unless, of course, their concerns were raised but simply ignored, very likely I should think). Why is Johnson apparently so happy that she's now involved? Or am I being overly suspicious that a stitch-up is being sorted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 11:47 AM

The Met may have no objection but I bet Johnson will be doing is best to hold it up as long as he can. Whether as the Man who averted a War, or the Man who led the country in a War, he stands to be able to milk this situation for his benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM

He'll be doing that all right, though, as I said, the Met see no particular objection to the release of the report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:11 AM

With the Sue Gray findings being held up by the Met inquiry I suspect that Boris may succeed in using the Ukraine Crisis as his get out of jail card, at least for a while. Working on his Churchillian speeches already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:00 AM

I think it depends on how much he knows the police know. It's looking very untidy for him just now. I think that either he'll go quite quickly or that you'll be right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 09:44 AM

I have said before that I thought the time for MPs to send in letters was 17-19 January and if they did not, we would have Johnson in place until after the May elections.

Even though the Met have said they were willing for Sue Gray's report to be released, it looks like it is now weeks away. Listening to the Urgent Question today, there was a strong attempt from the Tories to dismiss everything, but I did not think the opposition had matching fire on their side. (True, they are not fighting for their political lives.)

So unless something quite dramatic happens, I think I stick to my May prediction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM

From Labour List just now.

"...The Metropolitan Police has announced that it will be investigating the Downing Street parties after all, due to both information provided by Sue Gray’s team and the assessments of its own officers. This indicates that Gray has definitely found evidence of behaviour that could be a criminal offence and had to be referred to the police. It seems likely now that the Gray report will be paused. The line ‘wait for the police’ is not a good replacement for ‘wait for Sue Gray’ and won’t be an easy one for ministers to repeat incessantly on the airwaves."

Some intriguing points in there. To add to that, the Met has said that there's no particular objection to the publication of the sections of Sue Gray's report that they've started to investigate. Bet that doesn't happen...

Mind you I agree that "Let's wait for the police..." doesn't have quite the same ring about it as "Let's wait for Sue Gray...". :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 09:25 AM

I wonder at times whether Cressida bloody Dick isn't even more useless than Johnson. I wonder whether she'll be asked the questions about her conduct in all this that she fully deserves to be confronted with. After Jean Charles de Menezes, I've always marvelled at the fact that she got the job in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:13 PM

I see no one seems to have picked up on the significant typo in that email invitation.

Surely that first paragraph should have read "After what has been an incredibly boozy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden this evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:09 PM

"Maybe 'bring your own booze' was insisted on to avoid passing bottles back and forth with the increased Covid risk."

Implying that the people who work in Number 10 are the kind of oiks who drink out of the bottle. Probably accurate enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 12:56 PM

"Hi all,

"After what has been an incredibly busy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden this evening.

"Please join us from 6pm and bring your own booze!"

There ya go, Nigel. BYOB, let's have some drinks (we've been told there was food too), nary a mention of "work." A big indication that it was a reward for all their hard work. At that time, the maximum number of people you were allowed to meet outdoors was two. In fact, just an hour before, Oliver Dowden had publicly warned us of just that.

What part of "illegal" are you failing to grasp here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 12:52 PM

The straws you are clinging too are getting desperately thin, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 11:10 AM

Judging by the way words are being stressed by Nadhim Zahawi, the report is going to be hidden from both public and wider Parliamentary view, with only the 'findings' released. What that means is anyone's guess, but it could be a one page summary simply saying Johnson should have done more to deal with the original party - which he has already admitted at PMQs - but it is outside her remit to say if anything was illegal - which it is.

If anyone imagines it will stop there, they have grossly mistaken the public view on these matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM

If the man who is at the head of the body that makes the rules has to be advised that what he is doing may break those rules one has to consider if he is competent to lead that body.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:24 AM

Steve:
Cling on there, Nigel, cling on... :-)

But no response to the question of how you know that the meetings were illegal, despite your insistence that that was the case?

You may be proved to be right in time, but stating now that they were illegal is 'prejudice'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:21 AM

Dave:
Going back to earlier comments, how many works meetings have you attended where the invitation says bring your own booze?
None that I can remember, but I have been to works meetings where booze was available. Maybe 'bring your own booze' was insisted on to avoid passing bottles back and forth with the increased Covid risk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM

They can call it what they like, Nigel. Every man and his dog knows it was a party. Going back to earlier comments, how many works meetings have you attended where the invitation says bring your own booze?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:59 AM

Cling on there, Nigel, cling on... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:44 AM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.

On what do you base that? The Met have said that they will investigate if they have any information on illegal gatherings. If they were 'parties' they were almost certainly illegal. If they were working meetings between people who would otherwise have been mixing indoors that may be a wholly different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:57 AM

It's by no means unusual for journalists to carry out what is genuinely work in a drinking context - interviews and such carried out in pubs etc. I'd suspect that would have been very much Boris's style. And the same can be true in political circles - beer and sandwiches in negotiations with Trades Unions back in the old days, political shenanigans in the Commons Bars.

In itself the presence of drink doesn't rule out the possibility that people are working. But there's a limit, and it seems clear that this was well and truly crossed on numerous occasions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

Raggy, in every company I worked for from 1980 until I retired in 2012, alcohol was forbidden on the premises. Bringing alcohol on to company premises would render the offender subject to disciplinary proceedings for gross misconduct, putting it into the same group of offences as assault, fighting, sexual harassment, theft, etc., the penalty for which was dismissal without notice.

That rule applied to every employee and director, from the MD/CEO downwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM

" all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

I don't know about your personal working life Nigel but in any position I have ever held if I had turned up to a meeting with a bottle of wine questions about my suitabitity for the position may have been questioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 PM

That does indeed add a new perspective, and shines a - rather unsteady - light on the doings of our superiors, elected or no. "All day every day", is it? No wonder BJ didn't notice there was more alcohol around than usual. It's a wonder he was able to shamble back into the housie to "continue working", or whatever.


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