BS: Trump Actions and Effects

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:28 AM

Well I'm not big on wishing people dead, etc. First, I feel that such sentiments, if expressed aloud, may diminish us almost to their level, and, in any case, the kind of people we're talking about are a bit like the Lernaean Hydra. Cut them down and two more just as bad spring up in their place. We've already mentioned Pence and Junior...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:03 AM

Hopefully Jnr has an urge for trendy dangerous high adrenaline fast acting drugs. That might solve the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:50 AM

McGrath: "at base however malevolent and evil he may be, he is very stupid."

Great line!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:02 PM

.. and old billionaires should be more likely to drop dead sooner from unhealthy lifestyles..

Hopefully Jnr has an urge for trendy dangerous high adrenaline fast sports activities...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:59 PM

Considering the hundreds of self-congratulatory tweets he's put up, it's a fair bet that Mike Pence is jostling for position for 2024...

Makes me feel glad that I'm getting old. Pass the cooking sherry and hold the glass.

If the Senate convicts him, that would be a good kicking-off point for charging him with criminal offences. If it doesn't, which still seems the likely outcome, I think you'd be in a big mess if you tried putting him in the dock.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:42 PM

Even if the Senare failed to convict,, Trump would still be liable to prosecution for his actions on January 6th. And if found guilty the 14th amendment would still be likely to kick in and bar him from running for President in 2024. And it is to be hoped, bang him up for a long time.

Mind you that would be likely to mean Donald Junior, if pardoned by Daddy, running in his place - no doubt waving his copy of Trump's version of Mein Kampf, ghosted for him while he hangs out in a pretty luxurious cell. And Donald Junior if elected might be even worse. For all his faults the President has one redeeming feature - at base however malevolent and evil he may be, he is very stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:06 PM

"Supreme Court Justices are more like sitting ducks compared to Congress people"

How so? They've tenure for life. There is nothing Trump could do for them, now or at any future time, short of taking out a contract on them.

They may have needed to suck up to him before they got the gig. But that's past and done. He can't touch them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 06:50 PM

Nixon woulda bin CONvicted bud he quit B-4 the Sinet voted.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 06:41 PM

Supream Court Justices are more like sitting ducks compared to Congress people. You can be sure they empathize with Congress and don't want to toy with Donald ever again. The profle of a Justice's courage should not be predicted.

We are on a fast track 'can do' pace.
Legally speaking "intent and state of mind" will be the prominent issues.

ps I do have a crystal ball and a 209 isotope iron nickel meteor.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 06:10 PM

Why can't all these mighty clever and powerful legislators just respond to abnormal current events,
to fast track making new rules setting a precedent
on how to punish an evil wannabe mad dictator president...???

I thought the USA prided itself on being a 'can do' kinda culture...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:56 PM

McGrath: "Since there has never yet been any impeachments that were confirmed by the Senate, there are no precedents to guide the court."

There have been multiple cases of impeachments that were adjudged guilty, just not presidents. Since there had been only been two previous presidential impeachments -out of 44 presidents- that hardly establishes a set rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:24 PM

Actually to accept a pardon would merely imply that you believed it was likely you might be found guilty, not that you accepted that you were actually guilty. It's different from. The situation where a pardon is offered to someone after they have been found guilty, when a condition of it being offered is tgat guilt is accepted.

I don't suppose it would work to claim that the Senate trial, if successful, was confirming the view of the House that Trump was guilty, and that the verdict should therefore apply from the moment of the impeachment, and that any pardons from that point on would not be valid. Since there has never yet been any impeachments that were confirmed by the Senate, there are no precedents to guide the court. It would be worth trying this anyway.   

I don't think there is any reason to think the supreme court justices slipped in by Trump would feel any obligation to help him. As originists they'd be likely to be trying to channel what the Founding Fathers intended. And it seems pretty obvious the FFs would have seen Trump as a contemptible little man.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:56 PM

As to Jos' question, merely accepting a pardon implies that one has committed unlawful acts. Many a person who has been charged with a crime has refused a pardon because of that implication.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM

"jurisdiction"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:45 PM

"Suffering punishment and imprisonment will not come from the Federal Government."
You must have a crystal ball because the efficacy of a self-pardon is not a foregone conclusion. The D.C. Attorney General is under the jusridiction of the federal government and he's investigating the speakers who ginned up the crowd before the Jan. 6 insurrection, which include trump. The feds will also be interested in his recorded phone call to the Georgia Sec. of State in which he begged for votes as well as his attempt to coerce Pence into unlawfully overturning the election results. He's nowhere near out of the woods with the feds.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 12:28 PM

He can stay silent.(if only) He would only be considered guilty by law and pardoned.
Suffering punishment and imprisonment will not come from the Federal Government.

It will/could come from State Civil courts and monetary suits from corporations, banks, Joe Sixpack etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jos
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 11:33 AM

In order to pardon himself, wouldn't he first have to admit that he had done something wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 10:44 AM

Most people frown on those who try to put a crown or halo on themselves. The supream Court Justice to preside at Clintons impeachment sewed 5 stars on his robe sleeves to out rank all generals. Impeachments have their improvisational side.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 09:53 AM

"And there’s no evidence that this has changed in the 40 years since it was written."

Think how little precedent has been set so far regarding impeached Presidents. This is the fourth time a President has been impeached, and two of those times were Trump. I think the possibility of changing things has to do with WHY he was impeached, and why the pardons should be thrown out.

I don't believe he can pardon himself. AFAIK, no President has ever done that, but the founding fathers definitely didn't have a "get out of jail free" card in mind when they wrote it into the Constitution. It was supposed to be about righting wrongs, and justice.

But I am not a lawyer, and all of the above is opinion/supposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 09:10 AM

I agree

The big picture of US politics and leftist economic policy from FDR's NEW DEAL faded away by 1960 with conservatives whittling aqy and regulating away the New Deal. Since then the partys in the US became the same except for civil rights. Tweedle dum and tweedle dee. Monopolies emerged again. We even farmed out child labor. There has been NO true left for 60 years. When the only difference between Dems and Republicans was racial politics, Trump played it up to the max.
...........................
Love me I'm a liberal democrat except for economic policy against blacks - was the reality of institutional racism.
............................
A true FDR left is needed now because of the pandemic depression inequality and wealth poverty chasms. How we get ahead is the challenge in light of the conspiracy population.

Evil genius' got us here and good genius' are needed to get ahead.


Now you know more about US political evolution than 95% of Americans.
Yeah the statistic is my guess :^/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:45 AM

That's as good a reason as any for rogue dictatorships being swiftly 'remedied'
by the targeted deaths of the dictator, his sons, generals, and regime political & religious leaders...

Something the USA has been ruthlessly effective with in overseas interventions in foreign lands...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:18 AM

Even if the president is impeached and subsequently convicted for abusing their pardon power, the remedy would be limited to removal from office and disqualification from future office. So the individual president is removed from power, but their acts are not undone.
In fact, the CRS noted that some have argued impeachment is “useless against a president . . . who grants controversial pardons in the very last hours of his tenure.” Meaning the president can grant whichever pardons they want just before they leave office and nothing can stop them.

And there are no other ways to stop a presidential pardon either. A footnote in a 1977 William and Mary Law Review paper said, “the pardon remains effective despite removal of the president for issuing it. Once delivered, a pardon cannot be revoked.” And there’s no evidence that this has changed in the 40 years since it was written.

So, a pardoned person will remain pardoned even if a president is impeached and convicted. Once the paperwork is complete and the person is officially pardoned by the president, there is no precedent for undoing it.

Courts will probably overturn a self pardon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:14 AM

It can't just end at trump.
His son, and close allies and enablers, must also somehow face justice.
At the very least
permanent barring from public office and influence..

Trump is a toxic figurehead.
But cutting off the head of the snake does not finish off his malignant legacy.
Other corrupting heads are waiting for their turn to quickly grow back to replace him..

They must be preemptively stopped alongside with trump...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:02 AM

A Pardon after a guilty verdict is a different can of worms, and would President Pense then be willing to do so? The federal 'punishment' is removal from office.
A guilty Trump then becomes game for any State prosecution.
Civil Courts csn fine or jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:52 AM

Thanks for that, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM

DMcG In a nutshell https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/impeachment

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:12 AM

Your hard man reputation clearly goes before you, Doug! :-)

The double jeopardy argument doesn't wash. That would apply only to due process of law, which the impeachment process ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:02 AM

.......... pull his own 'ead off rather than see Doug.


???

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 04:45 AM

conviction by the Senate after impeachment wouldn't preclude him from facing criminal charges

You may well be right, but I would not be surprised to hear cries of 'double jeopardy' from his lawyers.

Let's leave Trump out of this as a specific, and consider what 'a President' might do.   You can imagine two extremes: something extremely serious, like personally burning down the House, and the minimum that might be a successful impeachment, say misuse of the Presidential Seal.

If looks to me as if the range of actions available to the Senate after a conviction are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 04:38 AM

Impeachment is a separate matter from due process of the law of the land, the latter being the way to get him in jail, as with any other citizen. A Senate trial after impeachment is different. If Trump is convicted there, it wouldn't be seen as a punishment, though obviously his reputation would be completely shot. More importantly, the Senate would then have the power to bar him from future office. Of course, conviction by the Senate after impeachment wouldn't preclude him from facing criminal charges. Whether what would probably be a protracted and very public criminal show trial would be in the country's best interests is a moot point, in m'humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 03:39 AM

I admit I don't fully understand the consequences of being impeached. There is the Senate trial - at some time - which might find him guilty of incitement to sedition. As far as I can tell, that would carry a penalty of up to 20 years imprisonment in normal circumstances if passed in an ordinary court. But all it seems to do in this case is allow further votes on actions like barring from standing again, and the Senate could, in principle, decide not to do that. It does not seem to carry a penalty in its own right.

We had something similar in the UK. Dominic Cummings was found to be in contempt of Parliament. His response was to shrug and say so what? That looks very close to the US position.

Does found being guilty as charged by the Senate carry a penalty in itself?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:40 PM

I think a single Question Time would make the average American leader pull his own 'ead off rather than see Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:04 PM

I don't think the Brits here understand the climate here. If you're a Democrat on the hill, death threats means its wednesday. This is new to Republicans now and are acting out of fear for their families and themselves. Intimidation is a norm in the Trump climate change of fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:57 PM

Jeri it was such a forgone conclusion why bother.

Stilly great minds think alike. ;^/ 3 Congress people are reported to have given tours and instructions to insurgents inside the capitol against rules on Jan.5

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:53 PM

SRS, between the cops not doing their job, even helping the mob, and the Repubs taking them on tours and showing the creeps where to find offices, there needs to be a major investigation, and prosecution. Also, every one of those people who objected to the democratic election process should be removed from Congress.

Well. that's my opining for the night.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:38 PM

I can't believe nobody posted that he was impeached for a second time. (Or maybe it was in a different thread?) Ten Republicans voted in favor of impeaching.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:34 PM

Representative Pressley's panic button ripped out ahead of blast. Sounds like an inside job, planned ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 08:04 PM

inside job

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 04:22 PM

Without an internet platform for Trump to excoriate and deamonize republicans who betray Trump loyalty I predict more than 8 Republicans will see that acts like defecating in the capitol to killing a police officer is the result of Donald's wild mob incitement for months.

Hearing the loyalists 'paraphrase' the incitement speech was hilarious.
"sallyforth good people with love in your heart to the capitol and with boo or yay voice your approval or..." :^}

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 03:32 PM

Everyone is bailing on Trump now. He's no good to anyone with his seditious cooties.

America's oldest conservative magazine comes out in favor of Trump's impeachment

"In an opinion piece published by The National Review this Wednesday, The Editors of the nation's oldest conservative magazine declared that there is "no doubt that Donald Trump has committed an impeachable offense."

The op-ed stressed that President Trump "urged a crowd to march on the U.S. Capitol and pressure his vice president and Congress to abuse their authority" to overturn a free and fair election that Joe Biden clearly won.

As the mob breached the Capitol, Trump failed to forthrightly tell the rioters to stop, The Editors write, and the violence that ensued was the culmination of Trump's "ceaseless campaign of misinformation meant to delegitimize an American election.""

The rest is at the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:12 PM

Jack, jackie, jackums, if you tell mr. trump about a Smithsonsonian saved website like mudcat for which Donald can leave his leavings you are meaner than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Ban Donald Trump!
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 11:11 AM

Oh I don't know Jack, it could be quite amusing to see him tussle with some of the sharp minds on here.

Subject: BS: Ban Donald Trump!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 11:00 AM

If Trump can be banned by Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and most recently Grindr - what is Mudcat waiting for? This is obviously the current big thing in social media.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:16 AM

gilly the memoradum is much likeGen Washington's Newburgh address

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:13 AM

Flaming tobogin Ha
The wall st journal and McConnll agree trump is impeachable

BEHIND BLUE EYES
No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the mad man
Behind trump eyes
And no one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated to telling only lies
But my dreams they aren't as empty
As my golf course seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what its like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you
No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through
But my dreams they aren't as empty
As my hotels seem to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what its like
To be mistreated, to be defeated
Behind blue eyes
An no…

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 08:49 AM

I found yesterday's letter from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the troops comforting:

MEMORANDUM FOR THE JOINT FORCE
SUBJECT: MESSAGE TO THE JOINT FORCE

The American people have trusted the Armed Forces of the United States to protect them and our Constitution for almost 250 years. As we have done throughout our history, the U.S. military will obey lawful orders from civilian leadership, support civil authorities to protect lives and property, ensure public safety in accordance with the law, and remain fully committed to protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The violent riot in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021 was a direct assault on the U.S. Congress, the Capitol building, and our Constitutional process. We mourn the deaths of the two Capitol policemen and others connected to these unprecedented events.

We witnessed actions inside the Capitol building that were inconsistent with the rule of law. The rights of freedom of speech and assembly do not give anyone the right to resort to violence, sedition and insurrection.

As Service Members, we must embody the values and ideals of the Nation. We support and defend the Constitution. Any act to disrupt the Constitutional process is not only against our traditions, values, and oath; it is against the law.

On January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Constitution, confirmed by the states and the courts, and certified by Congress, President-elect Biden will be inaugurated and will become our 46th Commander in Chief.

To our men and women deployed and at home, safeguarding our country-stay ready, keep your eyes on the horizon, and remain focused on the mission. We honor your continued service in defense of every American.

[signed]

Mark A. Milley
General, U.S. Army
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

John E. Hyten
General, U.S. Air Force
Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

James C. McConville
General, U.S. Army
Chief of Staff of the Army

David H. Berger
General, U.S. Marine Corps
Commandant of the Marine Corps

Michael M. Gilday
Admiral, U.S. Navy
Chief of Naval Operations

Charles Q. Brown, Jr.
General, U.S. Air Force
Chief of Staff of the Air Force

John W. Raymond
General, U.S. Space Force
Chief of Space Operations

Daniel R. Hokanson
General, U.S. Army
Chief of the National Guard Bureau

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 08:35 AM

Some of the same GOP congressman who tried to disenfranchise millions of voters on Jan. 6 are condemning a 2nd impeachment on the grounds that it would cause disunity. Mind boggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 08:26 AM

Moscow Mitch seems to be supporting impeachment which would make a conviction much more likely.

YouTube suspends trump's account joining all his other major social media platforms.

NYT reports trump told Pence that he would be considered a pussy if he didn't violate the Constitution.

The old bastard is careening down the slope in a flaming toboggan, it's about time. Pass the popcorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 08:22 AM

alternatives for the Trump lies

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 07:48 AM

Democrats could become more radicalized in response to the capitol attack response. I hear more of them asking why the capitol police did not shoot more rioters dead. That kind of talk does not help.
Don't take the civil war bait.