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LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?

Felipa 20 May 21 - 07:57 AM
Joe_F 15 May 21 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Felipa 15 May 21 - 05:04 PM
The Sandman 15 May 21 - 04:08 PM
Jack Campin 15 May 21 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,James Phillips 15 May 21 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Felipa 13 May 21 - 04:22 PM
Jeri 13 May 21 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Cj 13 May 21 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 13 May 21 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,matt milton 13 May 21 - 12:26 PM
The Sandman 13 May 21 - 12:20 PM
The Sandman 13 May 21 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,matt milton 13 May 21 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 13 May 21 - 10:12 AM
GUEST 13 May 21 - 08:53 AM
John C. Bunnell 13 May 21 - 08:34 AM
Jack Campin 12 May 21 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,James Phillips 12 May 21 - 07:05 AM
YorkshireYankee 10 May 21 - 10:37 PM
Jack Campin 09 May 21 - 02:57 AM
YorkshireYankee 03 Mar 21 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,matt milton 03 Mar 21 - 06:42 PM
The Sandman 03 Mar 21 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,CupOfTea without cookies 03 Mar 21 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,C21st Primitive 03 Mar 21 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 26 Jun 20 - 07:59 AM
saulgoldie 26 Jun 20 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 26 Jun 20 - 12:46 AM
Jeri 25 Jun 20 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,Rackabello 25 Jun 20 - 08:21 PM
Thomas Stern 23 Jun 20 - 10:10 PM
oldhippie 23 Jun 20 - 09:39 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 20 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,LynnH 23 Jun 20 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,saulgoldie 23 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,LynnH 23 Jun 20 - 01:39 PM
Joe G 23 Jun 20 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,RA 22 Jun 20 - 04:38 AM
GUEST 22 Jun 20 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 20 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,LynnH 22 Jun 20 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 20 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,LynnH 21 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM
Jeri 21 Jun 20 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Rackabello 21 Jun 20 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Rackabello 21 Jun 20 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 20 - 09:55 AM
GUEST 21 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM
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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Felipa
Date: 20 May 21 - 07:57 AM

Alix Dobkin died at home n 19 May 2021 after a short illness (brain breed and stroke). You can sign up to leave condolences on her page at https://www.caringbridge.org/

You can also read quotations from it on the Mudcat thread https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=169836&


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 May 21 - 06:09 PM

"If I were a woman, as I am a man,..." is indeed a striking line, but it is far from being an "overt declaration of same-sex desire". On the contrary, what is striking about it from the perspective of this century is that the king is confident enough of his heterosexuality and masculinity that he has no difficulty admiring the beauty of another man when the situation calls for that. An ordinary 20th-century American man would feel compromised if he expressed such an observation. There have always been exceptions, of course, and the taboo as a whole has weakened a good deal in my lifetime.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Felipa
Date: 15 May 21 - 05:04 PM

You can leave messages for Alix Dobkin at https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/alixdobkin
The prognosis for her longer-term recovery from the strokes is poor and is now only getting palliative care. Her family hopes to bring Alix home with hospice care for as much or as little time as she has left. When you think about the wording of your message, bear in mind that her family are reading messages out loud to Alex.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 21 - 04:08 PM

james phillips, if the king is not trying to exercise control tell me why he summons willy and threatens to hang him.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 21 - 12:41 PM

Latest on Alix Dobkin is that she is still alive but seriously ill after a stroke.

Somebody who can, look on CaringBridge?


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 15 May 21 - 12:13 PM

I think the part about the king wanting to exert control is irrelevant here - the point is that blokes very rarely compliment the looks of a man, they remain silently impressed in fear of being suspected of being gay or making a pass at the other man in question. Can only imagine this was even more so in Willy O' Winsbury's time, so it's quite significant that the king expressed himself in the way he did (i.e. by offering the hypothetical "I would sleep with you if I were a woman"). He could have made the same point by saying "You're a fine looking chap, I'm not surprised my daughter likes you," but he didn't, he invited everyone to picture himself and Willy in bed together.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians
From: GUEST,Felipa
Date: 13 May 21 - 04:22 PM

unfortunately, Jack Campin's news about Alix Dobkin was correct. There is a new mudcat thread saying she has died https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=169827

I heard an Alex Dobkin album many years ago and I particularly remember the songs "The Woman in Your Life is You" and "Because she's a woman [I didn't think I loved her]"


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 May 21 - 01:14 PM

Assuming a song means something it doesn't flat-out state is not good. I like having possibilities. There are nail-it-down types, and I don't understand that mind-set, but those folks exist.
So Willie o' Winsbury? Maybe, maybe not. I've heard straight guys say the same sort of thing. I think they were trying to signal open-mindedness and understanding. Again, an assumption.

I think there are very few nailed down LGBT-oriented songs.
But can anyone explain (yeah, Sam got a good gig, and they're all a little jealous. Unless they're being ironic, but I don't know.) how a bunch of men singing a wistful sea shanty about a departed man isn't homocentric? Sam's gone away (I looked for a version I liked, and I'm obviously irritated by a lot of things, so this one was one of the best. It's hard to ignore the weird owl calls ("WOO" in the chorus, but I'll just let it go.)


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:46 PM

I always took that lyric as the king acknowledging Willie’s beauty and get a bit hot under the collar himself.

I love that song. Always found the name Janet a little bit of a trip up, it brings to mind 1970’s Children’s TV presenters to me, not beautiful princesses from days of old.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:42 PM

me too and that is how i interpret the song. i am pleased you like the


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:26 PM

They are great words, well worth sharing, though I know them very well having sung the song numerous times.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:20 PM

The king had been a prisoner
At a prison long in Spain
And Willie of the Winsbury
Has lain long with his daughter at home
"What ails you, what ails you, my daughter Janet
Why you look so pale and wan
Have you had any sore sickness
Or yet been sleeping with a man?"
"I have not had any sore sickness
Nor yet been sleeping with a man
It is for you, my father dear,
For biding so long in Spain"
"Cast off, cast off your berry-brown gown
You stand naked upon the stone
That I may know you by your shape
If you be a maiden or none"
And she's cast off her berry-brown gown
She stood naked upon the stone
Her apron was low and her haunches were round
Her face was pale and wan
"Was it with a lord or a duke or a knight
Or a man of birth and fame
Or was it with one of my serving men
That's lately come out of Spain?"
"No it wasn't with a lord nor a duke or a knight
Nor a man of birth and fame
But it was with Willie of Winsbury
I could bide no longer alone"
The king has called on his merry men all
By thirty and by three
Saying "Fetch me this Willie of Winsbury
For hanged he shall be"
But when he came the king before
He was clad all in the red silk
His hair was like the strands of gold
His skin was as white as the milk
"And it is no wonder, " said the king
"That my daughter's love you did win
For if I was a woman, as I am a man
My bedfellow you would have been"
"Now will you marry my daughter Janet
By the truth of your right hand?
Oh will you marry my daughter Janet
I'll make you lord of my land"
"Well yes, I'll marry your daughter Janet
By the truth of my right hand
Well yes I'll marry your daughter Janet
But I'll not be the lord of your land"
He's mounted her on a milk-white steed
Himself on a dapple grey
He has made her the lady of as much land
As she shall ride in a long summer's day

right from beginning the king is trying to control, he questions his daughter , then sends for willy to hang him, then when he sees how attractive he is he acknowledges that and says IF i was a woman, but he is not a woman so offers his daughters hand in marriage and lots of land willy will not be controlled and says i am going to marry your daughter stuff your land i have plenty of my own and roies away with daughter. your theory, matt, is out of charcter with rest of story


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:06 PM

I Disagree Matt, about Willy ofWinsbiry imo all he is saying is is you are a fine looking man and if i was a womman i would be attracted to you.
however he is not a woman but the king and like most kings is trying to control everyone, but willy is not going to be controlled has none of this and rides off with the kings daughter willy is in control not the king.
the bit you refer to is about control not changes of sex or homosexualioty


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 May 21 - 10:18 AM

The post above, about Willie O' Winsbury was by me, by the way.

I'll also give another plug to Nic Gareiss' self-described 'queer folksong EP' called Portmanteau.
Portmanteau EP by Ric Gareiss

I think I'll quote Nic's notes because I found them very illuminating...

"There are two story songs on the EP that I chose to sing with male pronouns (Boney and Jimmy Wells). The rest of the songs also confront death, disorientation, and desire in ways that feel very queer to me.

A Dying Sailor to His Shipmates expresses heightened homonationalism at the end of the narrator's life after many years in homosocial conditions at sea.

Vernon (Wrestling Jacob) grapples with unseen forces of corporeal eros, reminding me of the process of discovering my own queerness.

Finally, In the Heat of the Day switches perspective halfway through in a way that feels both confusing and queer, ultimately leaving the subject unrequited, asking for more kisses she never gets."


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 21 - 10:12 AM

"If I were a woman, as I am a man, by bedfellow you would have been," admits the King to his prospective son-in-law 'Willie O' Winsbury' in the ballad of the same name.

This is the most overt declaration of same-sex desire I can think of in any traditional song.

Stewart Lee says as much, in the lengthy conversation he has about the song, which you can listen to here:
Stewart Lee talks at length about Willie O' Winsbury


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:53 AM

A couple more songs; "Rufus & Beverly" by the Rude Girls (in the DT), and "Emily & Katie" by Mary McGinnis, on her CD "Places InBetween".


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: John C. Bunnell
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:34 AM

Heather Alexander was very popular in both traditional folk music and the sf/fantasy "filk" community, with several albums to her credit, before transitioning some years ago, and has retained a following as Alexander James Adams. Base of operations is the Pacific Northwest US.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 21 - 08:34 AM

Gender-swapping is common in Indonesian dance drama (see Colin McPhee's "A House in Bali"). And it was normal in Elizabethan English theatre. Panto does its own thing.

Shamans the world over were expected to be bisexual.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 12 May 21 - 07:05 AM

One thing I've noticed, about British and Irish folk music at least, is that folk singers tend not to be too worried about the gender in which they sing. So you'll frequently hear male folk singers sing emotionally in the voice of a woman, describing how tall and handsome their beau is and how much they worry about him when he's away at sea. You don't really hear this so much in other forms of music, none that I can think of offhand anyway. So I've always thought of folk singers as being somewhat "gender fluid," in spirit anyway. In other words, it's not so important to assert your masculinity on the folk scene. For all the "woke-ness" of the young-uns today, I wonder how many current male pop artists would feel comfortable singing from the point of view of a woman? Folk is way ahead of its time!


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 10 May 21 - 10:37 PM

Just found this again and wanted to mention Marc Block – a fine musician in West Yorkshire. Check him out!


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 21 - 02:57 AM

Alix Dobkin seems to be very seriously ill. Updates are on CaringBridge, a site that doesn't work on my phone: I heard this from the New York lesbian klezmer musician Eve Sicular.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 08:31 PM

Didn't spot this thread the first time 'round, but I adapted "Do You Love an Apple" to celebrate the results of the Irish referendum on gay marriage, 22 May 2015 (by 62% of voters on a turnout of 61%), after a friend of mine said "I wish we had a song we could sing to celebrate this!"

Do You Love an Orange*?
to the tune of Do You Love an Apple?
new words by Vikki Appleton Fielden, May 2015
(*Yes, that's a nod to "Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit", by Jeanette Winterson)

Do you love an orange, do you love a pear?
Do you think allowing gay marriage is fair?
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

We used to be Catholic, at mass every day
But now the hypocrisy gets in our way
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

When we were all children, we bought what they said
That only a man and a woman could wed
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

Now that we're older, we're sure God must feel
That any love's worthy as long as it's real
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

And why should we say any love deserves shame
When hate, greed and cruelty cause so much pain
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

Do you love an orange, do you love a pear?
Do you think allowing gay marriage is fair?
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 06:42 PM

'Portmanteau - a queer folksong EP' by Ric Gareiss

Ric's notes to this EP were quite thought-provoking.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 04:00 PM

johnny cunningham bi sexual, i dont think so. not from what i saw .
it is not a question of insults, it is a question of being factually correct, also johnny has been dead a number of years, so why the devil is it brought up , he was a great musician . he has left us his music.
.....if someoneis alive and wants to come out that is their decision ,. if they are dead let them rest in peace.
i have not read through all this just happened to notice, jack campin uncalled for remark


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,CupOfTea without cookies
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 03:37 PM

Wittiest song about transgender romance in the contemporary folk vein is Mark Graham's Rufus & Beverly True love prevails!

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Ronnie Gilbert of the Weavers who came out many years ago, and toured with Holly Near, one of the first out lesbians in the contemporary folk scene.

Jamie Anderson is a fine performer I met in the early days of Folk Alliance, in a workshop about how difficult to get women folkies booked, when she testified how even MORE difficult it was for a lesbian to get booked anywhere that wasn't a strictly gay event.

A tiny bit of googling will get you a list of "LGBTQ Folk Music Singers" on queerbio.com. Then there are the loads of folks who don't have a big name nationally, but fill out the folk scene nicely in their home places. Quite a few gay/trans people in folk dancing circles and as musicians for the same. So much so that there is a whole movement in dance calling to be as gender-neutral as possible. It's a very difficult thing for many people to cope with, more for positional orientation than sexual orientation.

Joanne in Cleveland


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:15 AM

I'll second Jacken Elswyth. And the Shovel Dance Collective are brilliant.

https://shoveldancecollective.bandcamp.com/album/offcuts-and-oddities


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:59 AM

Jacken Elswyth is a folk musician from London whom I think might identify as LGBTQ+.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:27 AM

And I just remembered this one...

Eric Schwartz - Hattie and Mattie

Saul


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 12:46 AM

Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 08:41 PM

I got a couple of likes, but no answers. I thought maybe people would answer with suggestion on Facebook AND off. Nope.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 08:21 PM

Jeri, Thanks very much, let me know if you come up with anything not visible in searches! I don't use facebook too much, but perhaps I should make an effort - I came across this from Dublin Pride already, which is pretty fantastic!

I do appreciate the support. I did go and put pen to paper! I write fiction often, and some poetry, so it's not too distant a thing to me (and I did do song rewrites a bunch as a kid); I could see myself taking to it well. Watch this space hah

And thanks everyone for all the great links and suggestions! It's really heartening to have a bunch more songs to put in my repertoire, or at least my music library


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:10 PM

You might find interesting ALIX DOBKIN's memoir MY RED BLOOD.

Thomas.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: oldhippie
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 09:39 PM

The above "guest" was me, had to reset my cookie.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 09:38 PM

Annie
Fred Small

Annie's up at seven on a work day
Brewing up a cup of peppermint tea
Gathering her papers and lesson plans
She grabs her keys
Teaching arithmetic and Africa
Geology and girls' basketball
All the kids in her class will tell you she's the best
But she's heard other teachers in the hall saying
Chorus:
"What are we going to do about Annie
Pretty girl like her shouldn't be alone
If she took our advice, dressed up real nice
She'd find a man to take her home"

Mondays come with questions of couples
Where and with whom did you go
Avoiding the personal pronoun
She hopes it doesn't show
Shopping with her lover in the city
Two women holding hands don't get a stare
If the kids at school knew, what would they do
Would they hate her, why should they care, tell me

Repeat chorus.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:25 PM

Bogha-Frois - there's an interesting little video on YouTube where the various participants talk about how they see themselves and folk music.

Lynn


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

"Everything Possible" by Fred Small
"Love Makes a Family" sung by Two of a Kind

Saul


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:39 PM

Thanks - I've noted a few names.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Joe G
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:00 AM

Guardian article on the issue


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM

Amen to all that Guest RA
Hamish was quite 'in your face' about his 'change of heart' (as is Peggy Seeger, by the way)
Hamish made a biggish thing of it when he spoke at Ewan's 70th birthday symposium
Jim


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:38 AM

Strange that my post about Hamish Henderson's sexuality being discussed in Timothy Neat's biography of him was removed - I didn't think there was anything at all contentious in what I said. A bit of heavy-handed web-policing, it seems. Anyway, I'll reiterate that there's a bit of discussion on Henderson's sexuality in Mr Neat's book. Not that it should matter to anyone other than Hamish Henderson.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:23 AM

Perhaps I missed it being mentioned here but a song that seems to be relevant here is 'Be the Man' by Sean Cooney - sung regularly, well and with feeling by a gay friend of mine.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:04 AM

He was, wasn't he Lynn (Walter - not the husband)
Jim


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:35 AM

Jim - Great!


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:30 AM

The Dandy Man
From the singing of Walter Pardon.

When I was twenty years of age a-courting I did go,
All with a dandy barber’s clerk, he filled my heart with woe,
I never ceased to rue the day when I became his wife,
He can’t do right by day nor night, ‘tis true upon my life.

Young women all, take my advice and mark what I do say,
If ever you wed with a dandy man you’ll ever rue the day.

And when he goes to bed at night like an elephant he lays,
He never takes his britches off, he sleeps in women’s stays,
His mouth is like a turnpike gate, his nose a yard and a half,
And if you saw his dandy legs I’m sure they’d make you laugh.

Young women all……………….            

It was upon last Christmas day, as true as I’m a sinner,
And as he stayed at home that day he swore he’d cook the dinner,
He took out all the plums and flour and mixed them in his hat,
And in the pot upon the lot, the rogue he boiled some fat.

Young women all………………..         

It was last Sunday morning, all by his own desire,
My leghorn bonnet and my cap he took to light the fire,
He took the tea things off the shelf to clean off all the dirt,
He washed them in the chamber pot and wiped them on his shirt.

Young women all…………………         

One day, when I was very ill he went to buy a fowl,
He bought a pair, I don’t know where, a magpie and an owl,
He put them in the pot to boil tied in a dirty cloth,
He boiled the lot, all feathers and guts and called it famous broth.

Young women all………………………            

As we were walking up the street, ‘twas arm in arm together,
It very first began to snow, he said, what rainy weather,
And if he saw a hackney coach he’d swear it was a gig,
He cannot tell, I do declare, a donkey from a pig.

Young women all……………………..

Now you may talk of dandy wives, but tell me if you can,
Where there’s a dandy woman who can match a dandy man,
He’s a dirty rogue and a lazy fool, and how I bless the day,
If they would send my dandy man straight off to Botany Bay.

Young women all take my advice and mark what I do say,
If ever you wed with a dandy man you’ll ever rue the day.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM

Let's see.....LGBT Genres(?):

             The Handsome cabinboy
               
             The Female Drummer

             The Beggar Wench of Hull

             Patrick Street


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 11:29 AM

I think "gender swopping[sic]" used to be in a different form, because there was no surgical possibility, ans no hormone therapy. Used to be, it was only cross-dressing.

For the record, I knew the objection was to the possibility of Cunningham being bi. I just couldn't figure out why it would bother anyone. Let's keep the discussion about music, and not bunches in people's panties. It's not a BS fight thread.

Rackabello, write songs. I bet you used to do it when you were kid (most of us did, I believe), before someone told you it was only professionals that should be doing it.

One suggestion is, if you're on Facebook, to look for a Facebook group. There are groups for everything. I'll dangle a line on Facebook, and let you know if I come up with anything.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 10:36 AM

With regards to akenaton saying:

"Gender swopping seems to be the antithesis of most folk music, which deals with the joy , hardships and the natural world. Mostly it concerns the past when selecting ones gender was rightly regarded as ridiculous."

I would have to strongly disagree. Folk concerns itself as much with human inventions and such as much as the natural world. Plus, trans people have always existed, and being trans certainly comes with its own joys and hardships. Plus there's a good deal of crossdressing in folk songs, as well as a many things you might find 'ridiculous'. Hardly far-fetched to think that a genre of music that can be relatively sympathetic about other very controversial things might have something to say about LGBT issues. But I suppose so much of LGBT history is lost due to bigotry and the need for secrecy that such could also be the case in folk. I'm surprised at the current lack of it in modern takes on trad folk, however.
It's certainly disappointing to see you call a group of people like myself 'ridiculous', and proves the need for explicit inclusion of trans (and LGB+) people and narratives in the folk scene. One could say not getting with the times and making an effort to understand and be compassionate to those unlike yourself is far more 'ridiculous'.

Regardless, I love trad folk/ballads. If I have to write the songs myself in order to sing them, then I suppose I'll learn how to write songs.


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:56 AM

I'm not a troll, I just realised (it being pride month) that I'm not aware of enough LGBT+ songs or musicians and wanted to correct that! I'm not sure what I can do to convince of this fact. I have noticed that the previous threads about LGBT+ issues have been in less than good faith often. Perhaps that's why you have that interpretation.

I appreciate all the suggestions too, I particularly enjoyed 'Let The Rainbow Shine'. It's also a real shame I missed that Queer Folk session - I'll look out for more to be sure.

I did specify 'out' musicians, because I would not be happy outing people or having people be outed. But it certainly isn't an insult for someone to say you're bisexual or otherwise LGBT+.
It appears Hamish Henderson specifically was quite vocal about being bi, and about gay rights from a cursory google (obviously the internet can be wrong).

With the amount of social taboos present in folk songs, I am surprised at the lack of specifically LGBT+ themes. One can't help wondering if that's partly down to which ones get recorded/collected. I do enjoy modern (re)writes in the traditional style, but even there LGBT+ themes aren't easy to find. Perhaps that's something I'd have to contribute myself! I wish there were more younger folks like myself involved folk music.

Regardless of all of this, I very much appreciate all of the suggestions, and am happy to know about a whole bunch of people I didn't before!


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:55 AM

" it's mentioned in Timothy Neat's biography of Hamish Henderson."
It is
Jim


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Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM

GUESTkenny - I don't know that Jack Campin's mention of Hamish Henderson's bisexuality is 'a completely unsubstantiated allegation'. As I recall, it's mentioned in Timothy Neat's biography of Hamish Henderson.


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