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Apache recorded 60 years ago!

Bonzo3legs 17 Jun 20 - 04:19 PM
peteglasgow 17 Jun 20 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Roger 17 Jun 20 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,henryp 17 Jun 20 - 05:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jun 20 - 06:07 PM
Tattie Bogle 17 Jun 20 - 08:08 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 02:50 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Jerry 18 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Rossey 18 Jun 20 - 05:40 AM
GUEST,Dtm 18 Jun 20 - 05:45 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 07:35 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 20 - 08:06 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,crumbly 18 Jun 20 - 08:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,henryp 18 Jun 20 - 08:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 08:48 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 09:14 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 20 - 09:42 AM
Tattie Bogle 18 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 11:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 20 - 11:54 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 12:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 12:58 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 20 - 02:11 PM
Dave Sutherland 18 Jun 20 - 02:15 PM
gillymor 18 Jun 20 - 02:30 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 20 - 03:50 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 20 - 04:23 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 20 - 04:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 20 - 05:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 20 - 05:06 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 20 - 05:10 PM
andrew e 18 Jun 20 - 09:27 PM
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Subject: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:19 PM

Today, the 17th of June 2020 marks the 60th anniversary of The Shadows' recording session, which started their own international stardom: on the 17th of June 1960, The Shadows recorded their 4th single (the 2nd under the name "The Shadows") "Apache" / "Quatermasster's Stores".

The rest, as they say, is history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoN6AKPGkBo


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:55 PM

so what? it's pish.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:12 PM

Don't you worry Bonzo.
Them jam eaters in Workington thought guitars was shovels in 1960.
Mind, some of them still do!!
Roger.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:42 PM

The recording was done at the EMI Abbey Road Studio in London. Singer-guitarist Joe Brown had bought an Italian-built guitar echo chamber that he did not like and gave it to Hank Marvin, who developed a distinctive sound using it and the tremolo arm of his Fender Stratocaster.

Bruce Welch borrowed an acoustic Gibson J200 guitar from Cliff Richard, the heavy melodic bass was by Jet Harris, percussion was by Tony Meehan and Cliff Richard, who played a Chinese drum at the beginning and end to provide an atmosphere of stereotypically Native American music.

Record producer Norrie Paramor preferred the flip side, an instrumental of the army song "The Quartermaster's Stores", now called "The Quatermasster's Stores" after the TV series Quatermass. Paramor changed his mind after his daughter preferred "Apache". From Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:07 PM

Bollocks to Clapton...

Marvin is god...!!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 08:08 PM

Still have my Shadows LP! Saw Cliff when the band were still The Drifters: now that's showing my age!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:50 AM

the shadows were boring players if you want interesting guitar playing listen to this mor eimaginative and more musical


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:51 AM

eddie lang and lonnie johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q2YWl8GwQU - Midnight Call Blues


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM

I would agree that pioneers like Lang and Johnson have been hugely underestimated in the history of guitar playing, compared to the hero worship of more recent players. However, their music was probably less accessible and didn’t really inspire a whole generation of followers to pick up the instrument and have a go themselves. Let’s face it, Apache must be the world’s easiest guitar instrumental, with not many notes in it and some repeated almost endlessly.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:40 AM

One thing begets another, the Shads./Marvin influenced many groups and players of different genres. Even the Beatles recorded an early tribute.. 'Cry for a Shadow'. So it may not be folk, but the Shads. effect influenced guitar players all over the place, especially in Britain. Apache was originally played by its composer Jerry Lordan on the Ukulele. TBH anniversaries don't mean a lot. But those who are still around from that time, will no doubt feel very old!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Dtm
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:45 AM

Apache was certainly instrumental (excuse the pun) in starting me off on a life-long love of playing the guitar so it's a big thank you from me to the Shads.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM

Maybe those who scoff at the Shadows, prefer the Bert Weedon, Play with Yourself in a Day method?


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:35 AM

"the shadows were boring players"

Now let's cautiously guesstimate how many millions of discerning music enthusiasts,
a significant proportion of them being highly respected guitar virtuosos themselves,
would disagree with dick...?????

Yes as usual, dick's grumpy opinions versus the rest of the world...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:06 AM

”Now let's cautiously guesstimate how many millions of discerning music enthusiasts,
a significant proportion of them being highly respected guitar virtuosos themselves,
would disagree with dick...?????“


Absolutely nail-head, pfr.

‘Apache’, and HBM’s guitar-sound are the sole reason I pestered my dad to buy me a guitar (a ‘Spanish’-style, no-name, which cost £3/17s/6d ‘on the knock’ at our local electrical shop and had a 12th-fret action of about 1/2”), and set me on the guitar-playing road that I’m still on sixty years later. My guitars are considerably higher quality now though!

Most of the guys I’ve played alongside over that time (and that’s a lot of players) were inspired in the same way.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

The echo used on Apache was apparently a Meazzi Echomatic, which go for 1000s now !!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:28 AM

BWM - even still in the prog rock dominated early 1970's,
me and my best mate at school,
taught ourselves guitar by copying Shad's tracks off LPs...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:38 AM

I thought 'Apache' was a great effort, but surprised nobody has mentioned a pretty obvious influence- Duane Eddy- 'Forty miles of bad road' etc-
He was a regular in the OK pop charts in the late 50s


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:44 AM

Bonz - my two big addictions are fuzz boxes and echo/delay pedals...

I've never owned a real tape echo, I passed up on two affordable WEM copycats
because they needed too much refurb work.

I recently bought software Binson Disc Echo plugins for my laptop..

But don't know if any Meazzi digital emulations exist...???

Googling time...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:47 AM

"Maybe those who scoff at the Shadows, prefer the Bert Weedon"

The original recording was by British guitarist Bert Weedon in early 1960. It remained unreleased for several months. In mid-1960 the Shadows were on tour with Lordan as a supporting act. The band discovered "Apache" when Lordan played it on a ukulele. Lordan figured the tune would fit the Shadows; the band agreed. From Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:48 AM

Crumbly - you just did.. thanks..

I think it's safe to presume a lot of us Shad's enthusiasts
are also into other pioneer electric guitar instrumental bands and solo artists...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:14 AM

the shadows playing is just rather unimaginative music, it is nothing to do with being grumpy, but more to do with being factual. i think the fact they inspired anyone is amusing , but if i was to accept your statement it does not mean that their music has any more worth,they were promoted and hyped and we were fed a diet of their music and were not able to discover better music until a later point. they were commercial, in culinary terms they were like spaghetti served in tins or white procea bread and of their time, just like the aforementioned food , unimaginative boring and bland
They remind me of stefan grossman a man who was technically good but lacked musical soul a mathematician posing as a musician
however grossman exposed guitarists to finer players like john hurt and robertjohnson, in my opinion he inspired more people to and exposed many europeans to brilliant guitarisrs such as missipi john hurt robert johnson.blind blake
the shadows were musicalprocessed white bread


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM

nowhere is some imaginative guitar playing, molly tuttle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILG5szpf7ZM


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM

Dick - .. and here we go again..

..this thread ain't about you and your boring grudges against popular culture...!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:42 AM

Bonz, pfr - I’ve always been under the impression that Hank Marvin originally used a Binson Echorec, which he later abandoned in favour of the Baby Binson. Could be wrong though - do either of you have a reference or a link to the info about him using the Meazzi?

My first echo was a Watkins Copycat tape unit. It was a bastard. The tape-loops stretched and made the guitar sound ‘wobbly’ in a not-very-nice way. I used to get through three or four tape-loops per gig - too expensive to use the proper pre-made Watkins loops, so I used to spend an evening now and then making my own loops from reel-to-reel recorder tape, jointing them with editing tape.

We eventually got a Meazzi PA, which had a built-in echo/reverb but, by that time, everyone had abandoned guitar-echo/reverb in favour of the ‘dry’ guitar sound of the Liverpool and Manchester bands.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM

"Boring"? - "processed white bread"?
Well not in my book: I loved "Apache" and others of the Shadows' hits for the overall sound, which was something new in those days. It didn't matter if it wasn't as technically taxing as some other guitar tunes, and I couldn't anyway have hazarded a guess at how difficult or not it was to play - I just liked it!
It didn't inspire me to take up electric guitar, tho' I started on acoustic later, perhaps more inspired by the folk singers I'd heard. My main guitar tutor book was "American Folk Guitar" by Alan Lomax and Peggy Seeger: price 5 bob (25p)!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:16 AM

it aint about you pfr , so i am not allowed to have a different opinion to you, and it is not about grudges about popular culture , i have no problem with ray davies, the beatles, ian dury, eric clapton ,get lost you nitwit


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

Dick - your presence in this thread is as laughably irrelevant as a flasher at a nudist camp...!!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM

here is the clip they just repeat the same phrases no improvisation and their silly dance is really naff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvIYaYvVImc


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM

here is mr weedon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovH62hdCZOY


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:54 AM

Some people just won't even consider the fact that they may just possibly be wrong. As was said, everybody's out of step, except Dick


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM

this a more intersting version musically
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXLJsO_ulw
yes. john, listen to all 3 have you ever considered you maybe wrong yourself , just listen with out prejudging.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:24 PM

look at all these comments agreeing with what i am saying that this clip is the most interesting, use you ears and stop hero worshipping for the sake of it.Mark Blitzer
Mark Blitzer
4 years ago
One of the best instrumentals of all time.
39
Francisco Zahradnik
Francisco Zahradnik
4 years ago
This was the theme they played over and over, between films when I was a kid, '55 years ago, in a small town...Peñaflor, Chile.
Curiosly, when you get old, you cheries your youth.
Sorry for my poor english.
49
firebase delta
firebase delta
2 years ago
best version ever -- link wray and the shadows were terrific but this is IT
28
Hanne jeppesen
Hanne jeppesen
1 year ago
Proud of my fellow Dane. I was 16 when this was a hit. I have lived in the US since I was 22, but never forgotten the music of my youth in Denmark
15
Jan Irhøj
Jan Irhøj
5 years ago
Jørgen Ingmann was the great, great danish guitarist, that early in the sixties promoted the electric guitars amazing possibilities (...in the right hands...) and inspired generations with his great tone and technics. RIP mr. guitarman!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM

Dick...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM

Yep.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

listen.. without prejudice, and make a musical judgement, this is a music forum, we should be able to listen to different versions , without you or anyone else making insulting comments, PFR take note.
such as
Dick - your presence in this thread is as laughably irrelevant as a flasher at a nudist camp..


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:58 PM

Dick - you've now done Dylan and the Shadows this week..

Have you got round to imposing your egotistical attention seeking musical bigotry
on the Vera Lynne appreciation thread yet...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:11 PM

I wish people wouldn't compare apples with oranges.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:15 PM

His first idol was Ray Charles but, after acquiring his first guitar, he found new heroes."I loved the way Hank Marvin looked, the way he played, the way he walked around in circles while he was playing," he recalls.
Nic Jones interview Record Collector July 2019.
But he wouldn't know Jack Shit....would he?


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:30 PM

I like Eddie Lang, the sides he did with Lonnie Johnson but even more so his recordings with Joe Venuti, but before I'd heard of either of them I was a fan of the Shadows and still am. It's not an either or situation.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM

dave sutherland , i do not care what nic jones liked, what an idiotic thing to say , i am supposed to like them because 60 years ago he liked them.
punk folk rocker, stop trolling.this is a music forum we are adults an should be able to tolerate differences of opinions. listen to all the clips, the last clip is in my opinion the most interesting


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

Dick - Give it a rest.. we know what you are doing.. your pattern of behaviour..

..seen it too many times here before..

Soon enough a mod will tell you to shut up..
that's what usually happens next...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:50 PM

There was a very good programme on BBC 4 recently about the Shadows at 60. Well worth a watch if you haven’t already.

https://youtu.be/wdU5BsKdGCc


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM

I cannot listen to either of the two versions of Apache by Jorgen Ingmann & Bert Weedon simply because they are so awful.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:23 PM

They are so awful as to be laughable then and laughable now!!!!!!!!!!!

A reference to Hank Marvin's use of a Meazzi echo is here


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:30 PM

many people online disagree with you, bonzo. jorgens clip has over 3 thousand likes.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM

But I don't have to agree with them.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:00 PM

Thanks Bonz, that’s a very interesting article, and very informative.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:06 PM

Here's an even better article about Hank's echo units with many photos! .


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:10 PM

I only ever used a Watkins Copicat for a short time, until we saw Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages in which a scrawny 17 year old Ritchie Blackmore was not allowed to use echo, just raw Vox AC30 on 11!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:27 PM

Loved The Shadows and HBM. Listening to them now in the car makes me wonder how they would have sounded with a more Rocky drummer. The Shadows with Keith Moon! For me the drumming really dates them, compared to music a few years later. There's a video on YouTube with Jet Harris and a band playing Apache, and the drumming does sound like an Native American Indian sound. I read that Tony Meehan, after he left The Shadows [and had a couple of hits with Jet Harris on Decca], became an A and R manager for Decca records. I wonder if he was there when Decca turned down The Beatles?


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