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BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19

McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 22 - 01:50 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 22 - 11:17 AM
Donuel 25 Jan 22 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 07:22 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 22 - 06:39 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 04:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Jan 22 - 03:10 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Jan 22 - 03:01 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 02:33 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Jan 22 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 01:59 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Jan 22 - 01:24 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 01:23 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 01:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 11:38 AM
Charmion 24 Jan 22 - 11:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 10:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 10:31 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 09:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 08:26 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jan 22 - 08:08 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 07:40 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jan 22 - 07:16 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jan 22 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 22 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 03:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jan 22 - 02:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 22 - 02:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 22 - 02:18 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jan 22 - 12:40 PM
Donuel 23 Jan 22 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 11:36 AM
Charmion 23 Jan 22 - 11:30 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 11:25 AM
Charmion 23 Jan 22 - 11:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 22 - 10:02 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 08:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 22 - 08:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 22 - 08:11 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 22 - 08:06 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 06:20 AM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 22 - 05:59 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 22 - 05:27 AM
Doug Chadwick 23 Jan 22 - 05:09 AM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 22 - 05:08 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 01:50 PM

" Your accusation we are being impolite to you is bogus."

I must have missed that one. Unless maybe I failed to see anything in it to cause offence.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 11:17 AM

Ah, the second of your number to employ the royal "we..." :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:17 AM

point? Your accusation we are being impolite to you is bogus.

Omicron vaccine is already in its clinical trial phase.
The safe bet is that there will be all sorts of varients. Perhaps an endless supply, perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:22 PM

Your point being?


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 06:39 PM

In America politeness does not include bowing and scraping.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:45 PM

That thought's crossed my mind too. Though I'm not quite catching your other point. At least you can disagree politely, which kind of leaves the door a bit wider open. Must be summat to do with being fellow Guardian letter-writers... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:04 PM

"So I'll cling on to my prejudice that widespread outdoor mask-wearing looks just a tad neurotic."

That doesn't sound too far from the kind of thing Boris Johnson was prone to say about Muslim women who choose to wear a mask .

One benefit of the pandemic has been that by normalising mask wearing to some extent it should have cut down the hostility and suspicion of such women.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

I'm fully-vaccinated, I test myself three times a week, I've obeyed every mandate to the letter and I always wear my mask where required, and often even when I don't have to if it makes people feel more comfortable. Is that the American definition of libertarianism?

As I said, I'll stay civil with you whatever YOU say...


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 03:10 PM

If you were in the US you would fall firmly in the Libertarian brand of politics - an unpleasant group that are known for their thumb-in-the-eye approach to politics and social issues. Laisse-faire and the hell with everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 03:01 PM

She made a good point and you keep going. And will bring it up again and again.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 02:33 PM

..."are heartily sick to death..."

I'm not like this with you, even though I disagree with you on certain aspects. You need to accept that either, neither or both of us may be right, part-right or wrong. Charmion has just made a good point to counter what I said and I backed down. That's how it should go, but you continually make it difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 02:27 PM

You keep repeating your opinion in the face of a discussion of the facts of COVID. Your opinion hasn't changed. You're egging people on.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:59 PM

It is on-topic and I read into that that "we" means "you." You are being aggressive and offensive simply because you don't agree with me. I'm trying to stay civil.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:24 PM

Cling to your prejudice but please drop this as a topic here at Mudcat. We all understand your views and are heartily sick to death of you continually harping on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:23 PM

On the northern buses, Kevin, the p in "Spitting" was all too often scratched out and replaced with a crudely-scratched "h."


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:16 PM

Well a snotty nose (especially in kids) is not a sign of respiratory disease. Indeed, it could be me going for a walk on a cold and windy day, or it could be one of those disgusting footballers caught on camera blowing out their nostrils one at a time. However, as I've never been to China or Japan, and never will, I'll take your word for it. The science tells us that respiratory viruses find it much more difficult to spread outdoors. So I'll cling on to my prejudice that widespread outdoor mask-wearing looks just a tad neurotic. Here in the airy and uncrowded winter outdoors of Bude, my visceral reaction to seeing people out for a walk on the clifftops wearing masks is that they are neurotic and that they don't trust anyone (including me). Rather sad, actually.

Negative again this morning. Point taken that a negative test doesn't prove that you're negative, Kevin. I do three tests a week routinely, and extra at the merest sniffle. I can't do better than that to protect other people (I wouldn't go out of the house, nor would Mrs Steve, if either of us tested positive), bar never leaving home.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 11:38 AM

I can remember when all the buses had little notices telling you spitting o the bus was an offence for which you could be fined. I imagine it probably still is, but they don't feel they need to point that out because customs have changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 11:04 AM

Steve, I think you're mistaken about mask-wearing in Asian countries if you believe it "exudes mistrust of other people".

A medical mask is worn to protect other people from YOU. That's why the operating room crew wear masks: so they don't contaminate either their sterile instruments or the patient's open wound with whatever germs might be lurking in their respiratory tracts.

In China and Japan, people are revolted by the signs of contagious respiratory disease, such as a snotty nose. (Note to file: When in China, blow your nose privately.) People wear masks as a sign to their neighbours that they're doing their best to keep their germs to themselves.

This cultural practice may be a holdover from the epidemic of pneumonic plague that hit China in the early years of the 20th century. If so, it is a neat parallel to the disappearance of spittoons, and spitting, from public spaces in Europe and North America after the Spanish Flu pandemic, and as measures to conquer tuberculosis took hold in the 1920s and '30s.

The other important reason Asian folks wear masks is, indeed, defensive: it's to avoid inhaling industrial pollution.

Neither of these reasons implies mistrust of other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:36 AM

Who would I trust? Not our politicians, and emphatically not Boris Johnson. And those are the people who have made the decisions in question at present. The medical experts have been pushed into the background, and there have been plenty of reports of their advice being ignored or overruled.

It's worth noting that England is very much an outlier when it comes to relaxing the requirements, both in Europe and within the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:31 AM

MGoH:
I don't think that making other people uncomfortable or fearful is something we should feel entitled to do if there's no good reason, or that "it is their problem, not yours".

If what we do makes reasonable people uncomfortable (walking down the street with a firearm or some such) then it is our problem.
Actions taken which are perfectly reasonable, and which don't make the large majority of people feel uncomfortable, may make some people who are at increased risk feel uncomfortable. In that situation they can choose to avoid putting themselves in that position. I still say 'their problem, not ours'.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 09:19 AM

So who is to be trusted to make the right call on timing? Or isn't there a right call? If we knew that the thing would go away completely, I'd be with you. But the likelihood is that it'll be here forever. So what measure are we going to use? I've seen footage of those countries in Eastern Asia where people routinely walk around with masks on. Well I don't want this country to be like that. I don't think it's a virtuous mindset. I think it's a neurotic mindset. It exudes mistrust of other people. There has to come a point at which we decide that it's up to you. It's already up to you whether you sanitise your trolley handle. It's up to you whether you wash your hands after visiting the khazi, as with after blowing your nose (many healthy people's noses always harbour pathogenic bacteria - look it up). It's up to you whether you sneeze into a tissue or just let rip with glorious freedom. It's up to you if you want to go out and about, mixing with others or going to work, with a cold or flu. And so on. Things we definitely know can be harmful to others. Yet we don't legislate for those things at all. Instead, we legislate for a measure about which there's uncertainty as to its efficacy. We're a bit mad, aren't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM

Unfortunately there are a fair amount of people who lack Steve's decent respect for other people. I remember back in the early days of the pandemic walking past a couple while wearing a mask, and the bloke who wasn't in a mask giggling at the sight, and deliberately coughing in our direction as he passed. Clearly he thought this thing was all a joke.

I don't think that making other people uncomfortable or fearful is something we should feel entitled to do if there's no good reason, or that "it is their problem, not yours".

Relaxing precautions and restrictions makes sense, and I look forward to it, but not prematurely. I think that in some respects, notably in relation to mask requirements, it is premature. I believe that the timing of this government is not to be trusted, and that it is very much dominated by the desire of a corrupt politician desperate to worm himself out of a corner.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 08:26 PM

Does it work? Evidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 08:08 PM

Look at Asian countries where mask wearing is much more commonplace, to block flu and colds spreading.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:46 PM

As for life-threatening, Kevin, the omicron strain is no more life-threatening to fully-vaccinated people than a dose of flu. Quite likely, even less so. I've been over that already. Four or five years ago we had a terrible flu winter in which 30,000 people died in about three months. But not only do I not recall anyone donning masks, I don't recall it being an upfront news item at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:40 PM

Great post, Nigel! ;-)

My bottom line has always been that I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable. There's a pet shop in town run by a chap who worries like mad about catching the virus. I wear a mask in his shop irrespective of rules. The same in the Beach House shop at Widemouth Bay where I buy my papers, some veg and my fish (she's a cracking fishmonger). It's a tiny shop, you have to be upclose and personal in there, I've known 'em for donkey's years and I'm not about about to make them feel vulnerable.

Other than that, wot Nigel sez!


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:16 PM

Sorry!
That last comment looks as if I'm agreeing with Steve Shaw again ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:13 PM

Even aside from the small, but still real danger of infecting others (even in the case where we are properly vaccinated and recently tested), not wearing a mask in a crowded tube train is liable to make some people feel threatened, and it also serves to encourage others to choose to discard their marks. Anti-social behaviour is infectious.

If there is no threat then 'making someone feel threatened' is their problem, not yours.

Those who feel 'threatened' by what should be everyday occurrences can choose to keep themselves 'safe' at home.
Anyone who, genuinely, poses no danger to others, should not be prevented from going about their lawful business.
The fact that some people are over-cautious should be their problem, not someone elses.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:55 PM

The trouble is the choice not to wear a mask in a time when thousands of people are being treated for what is a life-threatening disease, and many hundreds are dying imposes upon other people.

Freedom of choice to do things that do not damage other people is our right. But, to quote Abraham Lincoln (among others) "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins."

Even aside from the small, but still real danger of infecting others (even in the case where we are properly vaccinated and recently tested), not wearing a mask in a crowded tube train is liable to make some people feel threatened, and it also serves to encourage others to choose to discard their marks. Anti-social behaviour is infectious.

There is no equivalence in such circumstances between choosing to wear a mask, and choosing not to wear a mask. The former has no potential to cause harm to other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 03:42 PM

Cheers Dave. I've said all along that I respect your choice to wear a mask whenever you want. I just feel that it's always OK to question what amounts to questionable science. I also see the other side, that it's always OK to respect the precautionary principle. I've also said that all along. But I do feel that adopting the precautionary principle, without some pretty convincing evidence, does not entitle you to force that on others. So if you see me next week in Morrisons without a mask, don't judge me and I won't judge you.

And beware of the evangelists on both sides. They won't get us through this. They just alienate.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM

Here is an even stranger link!

https://www.perio.org/press-release/new-study-links-periodontitis-and-covid%E2%80%9019-complications/#:~:text=Of%20the%20568%20p


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:38 PM

Donuel: Nigel, you also were early to report the child covid diabetes link some time ago. It appears to be serious.
No, Mrrzy reported it (or mentioned it). I just added links for anyone who wished to read further.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:33 PM

I wear a mask out of choice. Having read the case for and against I decided that I would rather wear one. Steve has read the same and decided the opposite but wears one when mandated anyway. Neither of us have tried to force our opinions on anyone else so why all the acrimony? It's becoming like a religion. Wear a mask where and when you have to. At all other times the choice is yours. Make that choice by all means but don't try to force your choice on anyone else. Absolutely bugger all to do with common sense and all to do with intolerance and extremism.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:18 PM

"Unmasked. You wouldn't know...¡

Precisely. That makes it worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 12:40 PM

Apparently the antivaxxers are claiming issues with male fertility, but it is covid, not the vaccine, that can reduce male fertility.
Not posting any of the several links where I read that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 11:40 AM

Downtown today there is supposed to be a mass NO VAX demonstration.
Authorities ask to avoid the area. Yesterday was an anti abortion -no exemptions- demonstration.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 11:36 AM

..."but there’s very little sympathy when the consequences of defiance come to bite the unmasked and/or unvaccinated in the arse."

Unvaccinated, definitely. Unmasked? You wouldn't know...


"Circumstances alter cases"

I've used this expression all my life and you're the first other person I've seen using it. Kudos!


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 11:30 AM

Further to my last, the current lockdown in Ontario seems to be working as intended. Schools opened last week, and business closures will end on 31 January. We’ll be back to the 50 percent rule, with masks, and grateful for it.

Meanwhile, the vaccination campaign is chugging along.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 11:25 AM

"Common sense" is all too frequently a term used by people whose attitude seems to be "Well I don't know much about this, if anything at all, and I haven't looked it up, and I don't need to know anyway, I'll leave that to the boffins, etc., but I can still have a valid and loudly-shouted opinion because, well, I've been around, I've got common sense and I'm entitled, innit." Just like the bloke on the park I mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 11:24 AM

Before COVID hit, I thought wearing a mask, especially indoors, was a strong indication of criminal intent in anyone not female, Muslim, and devout.

Circumstances alter cases.

Britain seems to have descended into social chaos on this issue. I believe — don’t know for sure, but it’s logical and consistent with practice so far — that the Ontario Ministry of Health will rescind its mask orders when the hospitals are no longer jammed with COVID patients.

I’m good with that.

At present, very few vaccinated people who catch the disease even need to be admitted, so the vast majority of in-patients with COVID are unvaccinated.

I have read that the current vaccination goal is 95 percent with at least one shot, and the current level (as of yesterday) is 84.7 percent with one shot, 78.3 percent with two and 35.7 percent with three. On Friday, Health Canada approved our first oral anti-viral drug treatment for COVID.

Even when restaurants, hair-cutting parlours and gyms are allowed to open their doors, clients and customers have to show identification and vaccination certificates that are checked with a QR code reader. All business establishments and gathering spaces are limited to 50 percent capacity. Lots of restaurants, bars and shops have gone under, and no one knows when live music will be allowed indoors again.

People here carp and cavil about the rules, and defy them when they think they can get away with it, but there’s very little sympathy when the consequences of defiance come to bite the unmasked and/or unvaccinated in the arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:02 AM

"...a breach of common courtesy." I thought it was supposed to be about protecting people..."

It's about both. They are not exactly mutually exclusive. Unless there are very strong reasons I believe we have a duty to do both, and see that as an important aspect of the solidarity that we owe to each other.

I quite agree with Steve when it comes to distrusting the term common sense. Just because most people believe something is right or wrong does not imply that I should fall in line - though it may be a reason to reconsider how sure I am in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 08:48 AM

"Shaw Common Sense never bowled me over."

Thanks for the uncalled-for barb (tediously, yet again). As it happens, I've never assumed a mantle of "common sense" in my life. I once worked with a man on the parks department when I was a student. One day, he roared at me that he didn't need no universities or degrees or exams because HE had a degree in "common sense," vigorously tapping his temple. Six months later (after a sacking for doing a terrible job and absconding to the pub for hours every day when he should have been at work) his alcoholism had killed him. Since then I've always thought that resort to common sense is the territory of rogues and charlatans. I want to make arguments and to be argued back at, thanks. I enjoy that. What I don't enjoy is lazy insults dressed up as argument. As above.

"...a breach of common courtesy." I thought it was supposed to be about protecting people...


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 08:23 AM

Dropped a not in that second paragraph . "Not infected and infectious".

And the last paragraph should conclude …do not belong in there. Such things do nothing to benefit others, but rather they infringe on their right to be safe and feel safe. There will come a time when we can responsibly give up the precautions, but that shouldn't be determined by the selfish political calculations of a corrupt politician trying to save his skin. Solidarity!


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 08:11 AM

Questioning somebodies common sense when we disagree with them is neither nice nor nasty,
It's just common sense. Though the very term "common sense" is misleading, since in practice what is being referred to is individual judgements as to what we believe to be true.

The fact that a lateral test shows up negative isn't by any means a 100 per cent guarantee that we are infected and infectious, just an indication that we very likely aren't. And in any case that negative test doesn't show as to someone gets into a crowded tube train.

Failing to wear to wear in such circumstances seems to me a breach of common courtesy.

There are indeed times when we can feel obliged to do things that inconvenience other people or annoy them. Steve gives a set of examples, and most of them are things I've done, and would do again. You do them in the belief that they are in fact in the benefit of the very people you are inconveniencing or snnoying. Failing to wear a mask and social distance do not bein there


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 08:06 AM

SCS or science, you be the judge. In transitional times and places there will always be opposing forces. Shaw Common Sense never bowled me over.
I tried the Johnson's vaccine yesterday. If a varient specific vax is made it will probably take only a matter of 6 months. The learning curve for mrna is behind us.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 06:20 AM

SPB, speed limits, legal alcohol limits, driving on the left and the like are permanent fixtures that are there by general consensus. Until 2020 I hadn't even looked at a mask, let alone worn one. Yet before 2020 it was not regarded as "libertarian" to swan around without a mask on. If anyone ever gave it a second thought at all, not wearing a mask was the default, the norm. In fact, if I'd gone into Morrisons two Christmases ago with a mask on I'd have got some funny looks. Two years later, the morality police are defining not wearing a mask as "a lifestyle choice" (an irresponsible one at that) or as "libertarian." Well how did that change and who's in charge of making those judgements, let alone definitions?

The general consensus, even among the reluctant, has been to accept the restriction of the freedom to go around with our faces uncovered. I'd like to know now at what point it stops being "libertarian" to go back to the halcyon days of pre-2020. Who gets to decide the turning point? Whether you like it or not, there has to be a time when we have to go from compulsory to voluntary. Neither you, I, BWM nor Boris can finger that moment with any certainty. Of course we never know what's round the corner, a perfectly reasonable point to make. But we can't go on like this. As for millions of us being irresponsible, etc., 'twas ever thus, long before the pandemic, and we have to live with that and try to improve things. Long before this pandemic I was sanitising my hands every time I'd touched a supermarket trolley after I'd read a survey that said that 60% of Morrisons trolley handles sampled had actual traces of shit on them (other supermarkets are available...), but there's no policeman watching people coming out of the jacks to make sure their hands were washed. Quite right too. We live in an imperfect world, and coronavirus, like everything else that befalls us, can't be exempt forever from imperfect decisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:59 AM

Thereby hangs the tail.....

THat then becomes tantamount to victim blaming...

"We said you should exercise common sense, and because others around you who grudgingly take public health measures when they are obliged to have made you sick, then you only have yourself to blame. Don't blame us for allowing others to put you at risk" Same argument used by the gun nuts. "It is up to gun owners to choose not to massacre schoolkids, don't blame us for making it easy for them to do so."


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:27 AM

”Over the last few months the message from central government has changed from social responsibility to lifestyle choice. "we are not going to do anything proactive so it is up to the individual to decided whether or not they want to put the lives of others in the community at risk."

And, of course, the true purpose of the government’s approach is to provide themselves with an easy ‘get-out-of-jail-free’ card when it all goes tits-up and infection-rates are on the rise again - “You wanted ‘freedom’, we gave you what you wanted, we advised you to use your common sense, but you didn’t. It’s all your fault, nothing to do with us.”


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:09 AM

If a pub or restaurant is fitted with air condition/ventilation then the air breathed out by those sitting and eating will be mixed and distributed to all parts of the room. What benefit will be gained by putting on a mask to move around? It would be better, in my opinion, to keep the one way systems that helped to maintain social distancing. These seem to have been abandoned or completely ignored.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:08 AM

Over the last few months the message from central government has changed from social responsibility to lifestyle choice. "we are not going to do anything proactive so it is up to the individual to decided whether or not they want to put the lives of others in the community at risk."

Imagine this level of libertarianism applied to other laws....

We are not going to have mandatory speed limits - it will be up to the individual driver to divide whether or not they are prepared to put other peoples' children's ;lives at risk when driving past schools.


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