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Review: Lost threads

Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 09:43 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 09:23 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 09:17 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 09:15 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 09:12 PM
Mossback 13 Jan 20 - 08:11 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 08:06 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 08:06 PM
Jeri 13 Jan 20 - 07:51 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 07:43 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 07:42 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 07:38 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 06:55 PM
Mossback 13 Jan 20 - 06:47 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 06:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 20 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Nemisis 13 Jan 20 - 06:38 PM
Richard Mellish 13 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 06:09 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 05:56 PM
Joe G 13 Jan 20 - 05:49 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 05:33 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 05:21 PM
Richard Mellish 13 Jan 20 - 04:36 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM
Vic Smith 13 Jan 20 - 03:30 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Jan 20 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 20 - 02:35 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jan 20 - 02:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 20 - 02:14 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jan 20 - 02:09 PM
The Sandman 13 Jan 20 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 20 - 01:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM
Jack Campin 13 Jan 20 - 01:16 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Jan 20 - 01:13 PM
Vic Smith 13 Jan 20 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Nemisis 13 Jan 20 - 12:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 20 - 12:31 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jan 20 - 11:58 AM
Nick 13 Jan 20 - 11:28 AM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 20 - 11:19 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 11:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 20 - 11:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:43 PM

I'll leave Steve's comments to speak for themselves. Like Mossback, he doesn't have anything to say about music at all. They like to fight, and I don't.

As for Jim Carroll and Dick Miles, they do have a lot of music experience and knowledge. The only issue I have with them, is their proclivity to be distracted by posts that they consider to be insulting. If they could just stop fighting all these real or imagined insults, I think they'd be a lot happier here.

The majority of us here want to talk folk music, and not do battle. Why not join us, Dick and Jim? You'll be surprised how quickly the trolls disappear when you limit yourselves to talking folk music. They thrive when you're indignant, but they get bored and go away if you just talk folk music.

-Joe Offer-

    OK, I think this thread has gone on long enough. We don't ordinarily allow threads that discuss moderator actions, and I was more frank than I ought to be because I thought it was important in this particular situation. This thread is closed. If you want to discuss this matter further, feel free to do so in personal messages or by email to max@mudcat.org or joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:23 PM

That's very judgemental coming from an alleged Catholic. I have many a purpose here on earth, ninety-nine percent of which you know nothing about. A pretty stupid remark, Joe. And a decent pacifist would be only too happy to comply with my very simple request to use my real name instead of taking the piss out of it. You appear to not know yourself very well, Joe. That could be the problem here.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:17 PM

"But when people like Mossback and Pseudonymous leave us and then post under deceptive identities..."

Mossback is a signed-in member. You have yet to show that he's posting under a "deceptive identity." Pseudonymous is an unsigned guest. The two cases are entirely different and you know it.
    No, Stevie, I suppose I have no proof that will satisfy you. It's just coincidence that Mossback and Greg_F shared the same IP on a number of posts, and nobody else.
    -Joe Offer-

    And too bad if it offends you - but I find it more efficient to answer challenges about operational issues in the message where the challenge is posed. The idea is to get the job done, not to operate according to your specifications - and not to expand the issue beyond the post where it began.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:15 PM

So, Jim, I think I'm going to spite you by NOT suspending or removing your membership....and by not closing the "Closed Threads" thread quite yet. I did my best to give rational responses to your charges. I hope that you will read them and consider them seriously.

I sincerely hope that you will continue to be at Mudcat to share the valuable experiences that you have had. I'm at Mudcat because I want to learn, not to prove a point or win a battle. I think you have a lot you can teach me. My only reason for doing any moderator action at Mudcat is to stop the fighting, because I just can't stand it. I'm a pacifist, and I try my hardest to keep believing that peaceful and constructive human interaction is possible, and that it should be the norm for us in the folk music community. I suppose it's hard for me to make my point of view believable to those who believe in the necessity of combat.

-Joe Offer-


P.S. Steve Shaw, I do my best to ignore what you have to say. You seem to have no purpose on earth, other than to do battle.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:12 PM

If this is supposed to be some kind of open and honest thread, then I suggest that Joe Offer should respond with normal posts as the rest of us have to. Adding bits on in red to people's posts is just pulling rank. Yes, we know you're a mod, Joe. We don't need reminding in red.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:11 PM

Mossback, despite his denials, appears to be longtime Mudcatter Greg_F

Holy Joe:

I've never denied it, as I've never been asked.

"Appears to be" - rather like Trump claims it "appeared to be" that Sulamani was planning an "imminent attack". Good to know you're a part of the fact-free, post-truth bullshit spouting contingent.

He applied for membership under another name

Evidence? Proof?

But he sometimes posts under the same IP Greg_F used

Evidence? Proof?

"I Have In My Hands...."

You're right- "Holy Joe" is inappropriate.

"TAIL-GUNNER JOE isn't.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:06 PM

To be clear, I cross-posted with Jeri.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:06 PM

That's all very well but you are a moderator, and we should be able to expect fairness and consistency from you. We are currently not seeing it. Jeri and Maggie will be reading this thread and maybe wondering whether they should close ranks with you or just keep schtum (or they're just not bothered, who knows?) We know that you three don't get on. I have ample PMs to prove it. On one occasion you banned me for a week, then, within hours, Maggie reinstated me. Bet you felt great about that. It's a big problem, Joe, and while you three are keeping each other at arm's length, Rome is burning, plagued by uncontrolled trolls. You know summat, Joe, this is an important website, and that is simply not good enough.

Did you see what Jeremy did at at the Session a few years ago? He rejigged the website and he set a whole new agenda about what was acceptable and what wasn't, after years of the kind of negativity that we currently see here. For a while he shat on dissidents. I could argue that something vibrant about the place was lost, but his no-nonsense policy worked. The Session will survive. And, as far as I know, Jeremy does it on his own. Look and learn. And stop blaming victims of trollery for "driving people away." Too bloody easy, is that. The general tone of the place is what might be driving people away. It's up to you mods to try to set the right tone, and to get us onside. You could start by growing up and calling me Steve, etc., for example. You can do it if you want to. That seems in doubt at the moment, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:51 PM

Joe, do you think anybody who's reading this is going to trust you, or Mudcat, with their personal information? They shouldn't.
    Maybe so, maybe not. But when people like Mossback and Pseudonymous leave us and then post under deceptive identities, I think they've betrayed the good faith we offered them in the first place. If they join us and then leave and then troll undercover, I don't think we owe them anonymity.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:43 PM

I feel like I am on trial here, and I don't quite know why. All I want, is for Mudcat to be a place where people can be able to freely discuss folk music. Nothing more - I have no agenda. I guess that's more-or-less what I have to say.
I'm sure there are those who will find fault with me and attribute all sorts of interior motives to me. My ex-wife did that, and she was mostly wrong.
All I want is to be able to discuss the music without all this other shit.
Jim Carroll, I guess it's up to you. You have a lot of good information to share with us. We really can't do much about the trolls. We try to control them, but we ask you not to respond to them because that inflates everything they post.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:42 PM

OK, so I think we need to talk about the "Walter Pardon Industry." Jim Carroll says that the closure of the most recent Walter Pardon thread is an insult to Walter Pardon. I closed the thread twice because it had become combative, and had made rational discussion of Walter Pardon impossible - but Jim does not accept that explanation.

Pseudonymous started the thread on 5 November 2019. I have good reason to think that Pseudonymous started the thread in order to provoke Jim Carroll, but she did a fair amount of research and posted substantive information about Walter Pardon - more substantive information than had been posted previously at Mudcat. She included a number of questions - and it was clear that the questions were likely to provoke the anger of Jim Carroll. But still, Jim had the choice of answering the questions rationally, or becoming indignant and focusing on conflict rather than facts.

One particularly provocative expression from Pseudonymous was "Walter Pardon industry," and that one hit the jackpot. The term "Pardon Industry" was mentioned 18 times in the thread, and also in a number of other threads. It was deemed to be a rude insult to the reputation of Walter Pardon, but I wonder if it was. Some people didn't like Walter Pardon's singing, but I think that's mostly a matter of taste. I really don't think that Walter Pardon made a whole lot of money from his performances, and I'm inclined to think that Walter wasn't particularly interested in making lots of money from his singing. But still, the term "Walter Pardon Industry" made me think. There were a number of traditional "source singers" who were exploited by middle-class collectors.
It's Conventional Wisdom (true or not) to say that the Lomaxes and Peter Kennedy and John Jacob Niles exploited source singers, but were they the only ones? And couldn't it be fact that certain singers were exploited to the point that they became an "industry"? Certainly, Lead Belly was one traditional singer who became an "industry," and collectors and record companies made a fair amount of money from him. Lead Belly made a reasonable living from his recordings but certainly not what he deserved.
And what about Ralph Peer and the recordings he made at Bristol on the Virgina-Tennessee border? There's no doubt that Peer made an "industry" of the working-class singers he exploited. Try licensing a Carter Family song for recording, and you'll find that Ralph Peer's "industry" still exists.
So, was there a Walter Pardon or Harvey Cox or Joe Heaney or Frank Harte or Fred Jordan "industry"? Maybe so, or maybe not. But it's a matter worth discussing. And certainly, the term "industry" is not an insult to these wonderful traditional singers. It's an entree to a discussion of what is and is not appropriate in the "collecting" of songs from traditional singers.

So, was it an insult to Walter Pardon to bring up the question of a possible "Walter Pardon industry"? Certainly not. It may have been an insult to the collectors, but the collector tried to pawn it off as an insult to Walter Pardon. And no matter what you think of the morality of collecting songs from (or capitalizing on) traditional singers, I'm glad we have these recordings to study and enjoy.

And was it an insult to Walter Pardon to close a contentious thread about him that drifted off into personal invective and worse? Well, I suppose that's a matter of personal opinion, but my opinion also counts. And I think it was an injustice to Walter Pardon to leave such a contentious thread open.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:38 PM

Mossback messages me frequently and calls himself Bill. I call him Bill all the time here because I think he's called Bill. Greg Furness is a very good man. Greg knew how to get up noses but his sentiments were morally spot-on. Greg's posts and Mossback's posts are different in expression and demeanour. If it's the same bloke, he's doing an amazing job of keeping two identities separate. In the past I've found people who try that on to give themselves away very quickly. Bobad is the prime example. This IP address business is a bit odd, and a minefield, innit, Joe? You told me several years go (I have the PM) that you'd pinned down, via IP addresses, bobad as someone who also posted anonymously as a guest in order to troll. The indirect upshot of that was to prevent unsigned people posting in BS. A very good move. These days, y'all tell us that you can't possibly track Iains down. Thing is, you can just cancel his membership and rid this place of a major cause of the blight that you're always complaining about. But you won't. I think I'm beginning to work out why.

And if you get rid of Jim this forum dies. Your choice. You can nitpick about me, Jim and Dick, but where's your vision, Joe?


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM

Yeah, Joe, you are the utimate in defensiveness. I asked you to call me by my real name, which is Steve. It's the only name I've used on any forum I've been on, it's honest and plain and I don't think it's asking too much to want you to not twist it around. You appear to have refused. I threatened to call you Holy Joe if you persisted but I've refrained. I'll go high, Joe, and leave that particular piece of petty small-mindedness, and childishness, to you. As for humour, I post more in joke threads than anyone else. Don't argue with me over that, Jim, because you're too old to wrestle me... :-). I inject my brand of humour into many a long thread (including this one: I'm not asking anyone to laugh...) and I often do it to relieve tension. On the question of facts, bobad has not been banned from this forum. On Iains, his contributions, an inappropriate word in fact, are not "political conservatism." They are variously neo-fascist rants and propaganda. And his input to the music section, despite your claim, is tokenistic and minimal. He's a far-right plant, but, for reasons you have never remotely convincingly explained, you actually want him here. We can guess, educatedly. You have admitted to me more that once in private messages that he's a "bad troll." So do something. Sweeten the place. Make your life ten times easier.
    OK, Stevie, you're right. Bobad has not been suspended. He just hasn't been posting. But the fact of the matter remains - most of those who were "banned," are still here. And they will be here, unless we make a constant effort to keep them from posting. So, why ban anybody? Just to make Jim Carroll happy?
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:55 PM

Mossback, despite his denials, appears to be longtime Mudcatter Greg_F, who was banned from Mudcat and had his membership deleted - I do not believe in banning people from Mudcat, and I only reluctantly concurred with the decision to ban Greg_F; but other moderators think that "banning" is effective. He applied for membership under another name, and I registered him. But he sometimes posts under the same IP Greg_F used, so I think that it's clear that Mossback and Greg are the same person, or at least posting from the same computer. And it's very true that most of the posts from Greg_F (and subsequently from Mossback) have been combative. I think we need to live with the reality that there are some persistent "trolls" who will always be with us, and we need to learn to live with them. I believe that if we attempt to take action against them, it makes them stronger.
I do think that "Holy Joe" is anti-religious bigotry, an attempt to exclude and dismiss someone because of one's religious affiliation. But, despite the proclivity of some Mudcatters to make a Big Deal out of every little thing, I'll let it pass.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:47 PM

I've no dog in this fight, but I think Holy Joe doth protest - and bloviate - way too much.

Critic, critique thyself.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:45 PM

So, let's go on with Jim Carroll, since he seems to be demanding a response. Jim's primary interests seem to be Ewan MacColl and Walter Pardon. He had extended personal contact with them, and I really want to know everything Jim can teach us about these two extraordinary performers. Jim accused me of patronizing, but that's not true. I really want to know what he has to say, without him being distracted by becoming indignant about interference from people he considers to be trolls. But I can't do away with those he considers to be trolls - they are people, too, and often have things to say that are of value. Pseudonymous and Iains are every bit as obnoxious as Jim himself can be. Somehow, we have to find a way to leave all that behind and just talk about the folk music.
But as far as I can understand right now, what Jim wants is the total banning of Iains and Pseudonymous/KarenH, and the reopening of the Walter Pardon thread. Once I do that, no doubt he will have other demands - but I can't do any of those things.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:38 PM

I realise that may have been tongue in cheek, Joe, but, honest, we don't do that over here. Guns are strictly a US issue. I am sure he will see semi-automatic weapon with a humourous eye...

    Yeah, it was meant humorously. Where I live, I am surrounded by people who really do wear camouflage and treasure their weapons. And they are just as humo(u)rless as Little Stevie.
    -Joe

And this is nothing more than trolling, Joe.
You'll note that I always sign my remarks. Maybe you should, too. I don't see a place for anger and animosity at Mudcat - or in life, for that matter. But I find anger and animosity to be particularly absurd on a Website meant for music discussion. Rather than responding with anger and animosity, I respond with humor. I suppose angry people find that particularly aggravating, but such is life. But is my humor "trolling" - I don't think so. It's just pointing out the absurdity. I thought Steve's camouflage pajamas were pretty funny.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,Nemisis
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:38 PM

Has the semi-automatic weapon" vodka s solomoy" has an English equivalent referring to Proseco


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM

Joe Offer, thank you for that dose of common sense.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM

I actually don't have anything to say about Little Stevie Shaw. He likes to do battle, and he is very adept at it.
I don't dare argue with him, because he can twist the most innocent comment into something he can attack. The worst I can do, is call him "Little Stevie." He hates that.
But he lives for combat. I bet he wears camouflage pajamas at night, and sleeps beside his semi-automatic weapon.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:09 PM

And now on to Jim Carroll, an interesting person, indeed. Jim joined the Forum about 2008, and he and I had friendly exchanges about folk music matters for almost ten years. He sent me a lot of valuable recordings and such that he had collected by Dropbox. But Dropbox didn't work very well on my rural Internet connection, so I ordered a portable hard drive for him to use for sending information to me.

Then in 2017, I started receiving messages from Jim that complained about bobad and teribus and objectionable messages. Eventually, bobad and teribus and akenaton were banned from Mudcat, but I never learned why or by whom. Also in 2017, Jim began complaining about being "appalled" by the closure of one thread or another. I don't know if I'm the one responsible for those thread closures or not. I don't like censorship, and I don't believe in deleting messages or threads unless there is an absolutely clear reason for doing so. Otherwise, I close threads and post a brief explanation for the closure - usually that the combat got out of hand, and it's time to make a new start. Even though the thread still exists to be read by everyone, Jim doesn't like thread closure. On June 8, 2018, Jim sent me a message saying he was resigning from Mudcat, said he was considering erasing the hard drive I sent him, and returning it to me blank. I told him that if that's what he decided, he could just keep the hard drive.

In hindsight, perhaps I should have responded to his resignation by deleting his membership and blocking him from access to Mudcat, but I didn't. We really don't like to do that. By June 14, 2018, he was back to posting; and he was telling me about things he had added to my hard drive. And things were relatively calm until June, 2019. Since then, I have received about one long message a day complaining about things.
On 10 August 2019, I received my first of many complaints from him about Iains and his conservative politics, with demands that Iains be banned from Mudcat. And then after Iains backed off, I began to receive complaints about Pseudonymous. And it's obvious that both Iains and Pseudonymous were trolling Jim. No doubt about it, and we were taking action against both of them as we saw it was needed - but not to the point of totally banning either one. Both Iains and Pseudonymous have knowledge of and involvement in folk music, and many of their posts are of some value. So, are we to ban these people from Mudcat, simply because they are doing battle with Jim Carroll? Or do we try to deal with the animosity without a total ban of one or the other?

I decided to take a third path, as I often do. I told Jim Carroll that he had to stop doing battle with Iains and Pseudonymous. He was free to express disagreement with what they said, but he was not allowed to do battle with them.

More later.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:56 PM

I personally haven't insulted anybody in this thread. In fact, I've measured my words carefully and stuck to facts. I've kept every PM that I've received or sent for the last three and a half years. I'm a bit reluctant to sit back when I see partial defences intended to make the defender look justified. I've even tried humour. There's more of that if you want it. I don't want to sound crochety...


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe G
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:49 PM

Bloody hell it's getting like a children's playground with added swearing!


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM

Oh dear. it's hotting up again! I'll stick to the wisecracks and leave the insults to those who enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:45 PM

Oh, and you called me "bitch" in that post too.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:33 PM

You also told me a while ago that you thought that Jim had dementia and you headed a PM to me "Fuck you, Stevie" only last week.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:21 PM

OK, I guess I ought to address some things. Let's deal with Dick Miles (Sandman) first, because he's mostly tagging along for the ride and has no recent reason for complaint (although that doesn't stop him from complaining).

Dick Miles (aka, Sandman, Good Soldier Schweik, and Captain Birdseye) complained recently because KarenH changed her name to Guest,Pseudonymous (I was annoyed about that, too, but not enough to take any action against her). Dick was offended when I brought up his own history of name changes.

Dick was also offended because I called him "arsehole" in a personal message. He neglected to say that this was in 2009, when I gave him a humorous "Certified Asshole" award after months of receiving complaints several times a week from him about real or imagined "personal attacks" against him. Much of the time, the "attacks" were simply remarks that disagreed with Dick. The worst were from people who didn't like his performance in a concert. Oftentimes, he wouldn't tell me where the objectionable message was, so I had to go back and ask him. Finally, I had enough of the pettiness of his complaints, so I gave him the asshole award. It was probably naughty to give him such an award, but do I have to be perfect all the time?

Oh, and then my purported attack on Nic Jones, which took place in the Folk Snobbery thread.
  • Steve Shaw said, "Then was was the charlatan Dylan stealing Nic Jones's arrangement of Canadee-I-O...."
  • I confess that I was rather flippant in responding, "Which, of course, Nic Jones stole from somebody else - but Nic Jones didn't make any money on it...." (without stating clearly that I meant it was the song that Nic Jones got from somebody else - 08 Jan 20 - 03:28 PM)
  • Thirty minutes later, Dick Miles said, "joe, nic jones did not steal a guitar arrangement from anybody, you are ignorant, check it out, or better still keep your mouth shut when you do not know what you are talking about."
  • And Steve Shaw said, "Retract, Joe. You got that wrong."
  • Mind you, I left the thread after my flippant post and did other things, and didn't return to the thread until noon the next day, almost 24 hours later. I was surprised to see how upset people were about my little remark. I posted:
      "Shitfire. The Indignancy Corps are at it again. I meant to compliment Nic Jones, not to castigate him. Nic Jones brought new life into many well-used songs and made them his own - but most were not completely his own compositions. Dylan did much the same, but made a lot of money on it (and got sued for it). Maybe Dylan ain't as 'orrible as some make him out to be. But I tend to prefer the work of Nic Jones."
I thought I gave a reasonable clarification of what I had intended to say, but apparently I was not satisfactorily contrite. No doubt, Sandman will be going on about this putative offense for the next ten years. But please, I apologize and grovel and the feet of All England for my careless use of the word "which."

Dick is also insulted about the "Walter Pardon Industry," but it's better to talk about that later.

So, that's the deal with Sandman. He's a capable musician and I've learned a lot from things he's posted when he's actually talking about music. But he is very easily offended and likely to complain about offenses for years and years. And if he takes offense, he goes on and on and on about it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 04:36 PM

Thank heavens there has been a bit of humour on this thread.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

We had Willie at Hull many times and I MCd concerts at Whitby Festival where he was guest lots of times.

Ah can puttock and Ah can twin, Ah can shear 'em tae the skin, but Ah wish the cauldest winds ud nivver blaw.

And his 'College Valley Hounds' was electric.

Ah ay hev Willie's buik as well!


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 03:30 PM

Jack Campin wrote:-
I've never knowingly heard Walter Pardon .... so I guessed he might be a sort of English Willie Scott...
I saw WP only once and then he only sang a couple of songs in a concert with lots of other people; I saw WS many times - brought him down to Brighton to sing at our club and he stayed with us for a couple of nights. I had many conversations with Willie but never spoke to Walter and for that reason alone, I would be more likely to have favoured Willie. He was a public performer long before the folk revival came along - singing at harvest homes, village concerts and the like whereas Walter had not been a public singer before Peter Bellamy and others encouraged him.

Listening to recordings of both, I would not like to say which is the better singer. Camparisons would be invidious - I'm just galad to have heard two great singers with different styles.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 03:15 PM

Jack Campin, you're stirring the pot again. There are people as ignorant of Willie Scott, as you are of Walter Pardon. Maybe they should do something to remedy that, rather than boast about their ignorance.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 02:35 PM

You people really need to cotton onto yourselves ans stop acting sew silly it seams to me
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 02:16 PM

Weave gotta stop doing this!


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 02:14 PM

Reely?


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 02:09 PM

Dick doesn't need any winding up.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:55 PM

I think you are unfit to run this forum, you have made a libellous statement about Nic Jones, andyoucannot see how a close friend of Walter Pardon would be offended by the term Pardon INDUSTRY, to quote oliver cromwell you have shat here too long be gone


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM

Do you think Nemesis is trying to stitch us up?


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:37 PM

I feel like I'm bobbin in and out of this thread. Darn it, I may look stupid, but believe me, I'm nobody's spool...


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:23 PM

"and every successive supercilious blowhard post by Jim Carroll makes me less interested in doing so) "
Aren't you the one who constantly whinges about my behaviour Jack
Look at your own and stop behaving like a Shuggie
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM

Nah, we have cottened on to that.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:16 PM

I've never knowingly heard Walter Pardon (and every successive supercilious blowhard post by Jim Carroll makes me less interested in doing so) so I guessed he might be a sort of English Willie Scott (who I have heard in person, he was spectacular).

But I couldn't find a thread here about Scott, which surprised me. Is there one?


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 01:13 PM

Nem con Nemisis.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 12:55 PM

Is Nemisis saying that Dave & Steve are stitching us up?


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,Nemisis
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 12:48 PM

The serial thread (c)loser are practing their dark art again

Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:15 AM

Are you just needling someone, Steve? :-)


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:18 AM

Bloody sew and sew...


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 12:31 PM

It seams that way, Steve.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:58 AM

This thread is doomed, but the topic of "lost thread" (or "forgotten threads," those that Keberoxu hasn't found yet and sent back to the top) is a good one. I was sorry to find instead the usual bickering about trolls and moderation, but seeing how many posts appeared on it so quickly, I should have known the topic wasn't music.

Until the time comes to start a new Walter Pardon thread, why not sift through your own histories of posts and see what topics are already out there that are still viable discussions today? Send some of those old chestnuts back to the top again.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Nick
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:28 AM

That nice Mr Jones is very self deprecating about his guitar playing in this discussion from some years ago chatting with Sam Carter. He describes his playing style on Canadee-i-o as 'accidental' :)


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:19 AM

Jim gave me an ultimatum yesterday, insisting that the Walter Pardon thread must be reopened. I refused, because the thread had become a battleground, It became a battleground again the last time I reopened it. I offered to allow another Walter Pardon thread in a month, once things had settled down. apparently, this offer was unsatisfactory.
We will leave this thread open for a while today, and let people say what they I want to say.


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:18 AM

Bloody sew and sew...


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:15 AM

Are you just needling someone, Steve? :-)


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