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Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Related thread:
Walter Pardon - which song first? (45)


Vic Smith 11 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 09:25 AM
Howard Jones 11 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 09:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 08:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,jag 11 Nov 19 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 03:10 AM
The Sandman 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 19 - 01:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 12:17 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 10:26 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 10 Nov 19 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 10 Nov 19 - 06:54 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Nov 19 - 05:17 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 04:32 PM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 19 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,jag 10 Nov 19 - 03:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 19 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 02:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Nov 19 - 02:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Nov 19 - 01:36 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,jag 10 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM
Vic Smith 10 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 10 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 09:03 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 10 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM

Dick wrote: -
vic smith said
The Copper Family never, to my knowledge added to or augmented or changed their songs through their extensive contact with the folk clubs, though I know that the way that they sung them was discussed
i disagree and would draw your attention to the old dun cow caught fire,as sung by harry champion


Well, Dick, it is true that this song is associated with Harry Champion but the fact is that The Copper Family were singing that song before folk clubs came along as well as songs by The Mills Brothers, Louis Armstrong and others.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:29 AM

Regarding the issuing of recordings of Pardon, MUSTRAD has a story about this, though I am not sure I have the events correct and clear.

I'll start with a quotation from Mike Yates' MUSTRAD contribution, from the introduction to the "Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father" CD issue:


In 1999, Topic Records asked me to write the notes to their forthcoming Walter Pardon CD - A World Without Horses (TSCD514). I had not been involved in the production of the album, nor had I chosen the songs that were to be included. The original producers, Jim Carroll and Pat MacKenzie, had originally hoped that Topic would issue a double CD using many of their recordings of Walter. It seems that Topic felt that these later recordings failed to show Walter at his best and so Jim and Pat withdrew from the project, leaving Topic with a single CD that was without notes or documentation.

Ron Stradling continues the story:

"The recent history of this pair of CDs - the start of which can be seen above - is strangely convoluted. Almost two years ago, after parting with Topic, Jim and Pat asked me if I would be interested in releasing the 'second' CD - and I readily agreed. We exchanged a letter or two, but they then got involved in a protracted move to Ireland which seemed to take up most of the summer. I phoned them several times afterwards, but it seemed clear that they had lost motivation for the project.

Some months later, while talking on another subject with Mike Yates, the second CD got mentioned and he suggested that he could do one quite easily. Again, I readily agreed. The next thing I heard was that Topic had reinstated the second CD - consisting mainly of Mike Yates recordings!"

Keen readers of Mudcat threads, might, at the mention of one or two names in the above posts, wonder whether any heated controversial discussion ensued. And so did I. A search of the MUSTRAD site threw up a link to the following page, headed "Enthusiasms, No 3". Yates and or Stradling are, if I read this aright, said to have written 'a total distortion of the truth' with some readers unable to grasp why any of the background history should have been committed to print in the first place.


I don't really want to comment on that particular controversy. But I will suggest that through reading we get some sense of the context within which Pardon's singing was recorded and marketed for sale. And on that basis it is relevant to the stated topic of this thread (if not to the thread and how it has developed on a broader level as a conversation).

Enjoy!

I have been reading a book about Knapton. Maybe more to follow.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM

Just a quick answer to your reference to my Traveller recordings.
I'm a bit like the Peter Kennedy incident you described at the moment.
Very briefly (because it's not on thread really) I was over on Marton Moss in Blackpool, putting a canvas on a living wagon for a Gypsy family (the Lee's) Mary Lee fetched me a brew and asked how much they owed me. I said nothing if you sing me one of your songs (no chance-she only sings when she thinks nobody is listening!) She disappeared and came back with two CD's and gave them to me. I was expecting the latest from the 'Wolf Tones' In fact what I got was the Lee, Wilson, Gorman family recorded in 1970. The CD's were made badly from an ancient reel to reel tape recorder, recorded by 'a Beatnick' according to the family. I think he had his eye on one of the young Gypsy Lasses at the time. All I know is his name was Ian. One of the younger Lee's transferred the tapes, missing the end of songs and coming in late on others.Then threw the originals away !!!!! The CD's were chucked in a drawer and ended up getting scratched. I rescued the recordings, and did my best with them.
The family do not want them published, but have given me permission to sing the songs and trust me to pass them on to those who will not do a Peter Kennedy as you described Jim. So far in Ireland Len Graham, and Lankum have the recordings. If you contact Len Graham he will let you have copies this post is my permission. However don't be too disappointed. There are no great singers and mainly fragments of songs, but some great versions and unusual tunes. My recordings of Peter Ingram are on the BL sound archive and 'The Voice of the people'.
kind regards
Nick


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:25 AM

Walter sang more or less in the manner people probably always sang folk songs - he certainly learned from his uncles who were product of the 19th century
I'm not talking about listening to old recordings

Walter didn't do 'in-beween banter as far as I know - he took his singing seriously and sang - Bert Lloyd commented on this when Walter was taken to America foir the Bi-Centennial celebrations
He seldom even drank while performing
There are examples of him on film
If you regard fol song as a thing of the past - why involve yourself in it
You must hate Shakespeare
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM

Jim, Jag was quoting me from very early on in the thread, when I was trying to understand the terms of the original post, and in particular what I interpreted as suggesting that WP's exposure to modern culture somehow somehow meant he could not be properly regarded as an example of traditional singing style

Here's what I said in context

Firstly you seem to have a misguided idea of what a traditional singer should be. The idea that a folk singer should be an illiterate peasant untouched by outside influences was inaccurate even in Cecil Sharp's time. Pardon was a man of the 20th century, more or less contemporary with my own father, and of course he had some education and was literate. Of course he was exposed to the gramophone, the radio and the television, and it would be naive to expect that his singing style might be completely untouched by these influences. However it would also have been influenced by the singers in his family and his village. His style was his own, as to some extent is any singer's, and from one point of view is representative only of him. Most other traditional singers had their own individual styles. Nevertheless it is an example of a mid-20th century singer who has been part of a singing tradition passed on over at least three generations, but not one which existed in a state of isolation.

It became clear from later posts that by "traditional singer" the OP meant from before the early 20th century. My point was that WP's style should be seen as that of a 20th century singer, part of a tradition which continued throughout that century and into this, albeit much reduced. Whether or not that was influenced by external factors (on which I make no comment) shouldn't devalue it in any way - tradition moves on and reflects the society it is part of.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:15 AM

btw.. I've not had time to look yet,
but do any of the documentaries mentioned in this thread
actually containg footage of Walter singing live to an audience,
with maybe some of his in between songs banter...???


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:12 AM

"but we're not talking about a passive - "eyes on screens" involvement in the music"

But how else are we expected to enjoy "peformances from the past"
if not from recordings and moving pictures..???

Roll up roll up.. Folk TARDIS time trips to the past
book a session now, and you'll be back home tonight even before you left.....!!!???


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:06 AM

(The evidence is plastered all over the internet..."
Not in my experience - but we're not talking about a passive - "eyes on screens" involvement in the music - we always had records we could buy and and sit at home and listen to
We are discussing a situation were we could sing to our peers and fellow enthusiasts
One of the arguments about the club scene has always been that it is an artificial way of enjoying folk song - I cannot think of anything more artifical that staring at a screen or a tiny image on an iphone tpo get your fulfilment
The facts of tha matter are that it is not the general public who have chnaged in their tastes but it is the crowd who have taken over the folk scene who hacve decided they want to do something else
Folk remains potentially as relevant as it always was

This argument doesn't belong here so let's takwe our thread drift elsewhere
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:59 AM

'Without encroaching on the other thread Ö.. what has replaced Walter and his like on the folk scene is far less successful than..'

With respect, as I understand English vocabulary, this comment is, or, let's use hedges with politeness in mind, this comment may be 'encroaching' on this thread, not the other one. For it is that thread and not this one which has as its topic the current state of folk music in the UK.

I have just listened again to Pardon' Maid of Australia on Spotify. I found it as embarrassingly horrid as I did the first time I listened to it. It appears to me (and I know this is just my personal response)( to be a mixture of what is almost something approaching a male rape fantasy and colonial exoticism. Its date, who knows? Its language: some of it presumably deliberately anachronistic at the time of composition eg damsel.

Story: narrator, foreign to Australia, presumably a colonialist of some sort, snoops on a native Australian female bathing in the nude. He skin, he notes, is black. She trips on coming out of the water, he then saves her and (in what is presumably a 'baudy' pun) announces that he entered 'the bush of Australia'. Any explicit 'come on' on from this woman, whom even the persona of the song appears to be aware is just dressing and behaving according to the mores of her own culture, may be in the mind of the persona. But, like many a woman in such fantasies, she joins him in 'sporting' in the 'highest of glee'. He then left her.

I struggle to see why the compilers of this anthology chose to represent English folk song with this. I'm not convinced that he sings it even at the right pitch since it sounds like he is struggling to hit the lower notes. I do not believe for one moment that putting this sort of song on stage in the 21st century would solve the problems of the UK folk scene. It seems to me more likely that it illustrates some of the things that were wrong with the 2nd Revival.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM

"I would be interested to be proved wrong - I would also be interested to know why 21st century urban Britain is so different than 21st century Northern Ireland in not being able to accept songs and peformances from the past"

Jim - but you are bound to be proved wrong,
because you are making too massive an over generalisation..
Music lovers do "accept songs and peformances from the past"
The evidence is plastered all over the internet...

I wish I'd had all that is available now when I was a kid,
when our music awareness was limited by meagre provision on TV and radio...

.. and the small town record shop with hardly any back catalogue stock...

We hardly knew of anything that existed outside the weekly pop charts back then...


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:26 AM

"Pardon was a man of the 20th century"
Not sure what that means Jag - Walter's songs dated back to the 19thc 18thc, - even early and they entertained many of us throughout the latter half of the 20th century ]
Are you saying that 21st century singing enthusiasts are no longer capable of enjoying them ?
Does culture from the past really come with a sell-by date
I sat among a room-full of people of all ages a couple of weeks ago in Belfast and we listened to everything from ancient ballads to recently composed songs made using old techniques - no accompaniment - no amplification - just people listening to songs well sung

Without encroaching on the other thread, I think the pitiful number of clubs and the much reduced audiences on the club scene has proved pretty conclusively that what has replaced Walter and his like on the folk scene is far less successful than what brought us together
I would be interested to be proved wrong - I would also be interested to know why 21st century urban Britain is so different than 21st century Northern Ireland in not being able to accept songs and peformances from the past
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:00 AM

Regarding Pardon's repertoire:

There is a list of songs sung by Pardon on the MUSTRAD pages. These pages were refenced in the original post on this thread.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm#rep

A quick check suggested that the following, from the BL site, which some sources say he knew, were not on the MUSTRAd pages. But it was a quick check and may be incorrect.

Molly my Irish Molly
Broomfield Hill (may be Broomfield wager which is on)
Give my love to Nancy
More Trouble in My Native Land

Re Discography: Mustrad also features a discography, which I hope they will not mind me citing here, with full acknowledgements of the work of Mike Yates/Ron Stradling in putting the information on Pardon together:

Walter Pardon Discography:

EFDSS CD002
Bright Golden Store
Folkways FE38553
The Deserter
Lord Lovel
The Maid of Australia
Harmonium HM719
The Trees they do Grow Hogh
Home-Made Music LP301
Blow the Winds I-O
Bright Golden Store
Caroline and her Young Sailor Bold
Come Little Leaves
Hold the Fort
Naughty Jemima Brown
Old Joe the Boat is Going Over (melodeon)
The Parson and the Clerk
The Poor Smuggler's Boy
Rakish Young Fellow
Rosin-a-Beau
Thornaby Woods
Two Jolly Butchers
Uncle Walter's March (melodeon)
Leader LED2063
A Ship to Old England Came
A British Man-of-War
The Dark-Eyed Sailor
Jack Tar Ashore
Let the Wind Blow High or Low
The Miller and His Sons
Old Brown' s Daughter
The Poacher's Fate
The Rambling Blade
The Trees They Do Grow High
Van Diemen's Land
Leader LED2111
Balaclava
Down By the Dark Arches
Grace Darling
I'll Beat the Drum Again (The Female Drummer)
I'll Hang my Harp on a Willow Tree
Jones's Ale
The Old Miser
The Pretty Ploughboy
Up to the Rigs (of London Town)
The Wreck of the Ramillies
You Generals All (Lord Marlborough)
Musical Traditions MT CD 305
All Among the Barley
Black-eyed Susan
Blow the Winds I-O
The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O
Caroline and Her Young Sailor Bold
A Country Life
Cupid the Pretty Ploughboy
The Green Bushes
Hold the Fort
If I Were a Blackbird
I'm Yorkshire Though in London
Little Ball of Yarn
Lord Lovel
An Old Man's Advice
The Parson and the Clerk
Polly Vaughan
The Poor Smuggler's Boy
The Saucy Sailor
Seventeen Come Sunday
The Skipper and his Boy
Thornaby Woods
Musical Traditions MT CD 306
Alice Grey
Ben Bolt
Bound to Emigrate to New Zealand
Cock-a-Doodle-Do
The Cuckoo
The Dandy Man
Down by the Old Abbey Ruins
For Me, For Me
The Harland Road
Here's to the Grog
The Huntsman
Husband Taming
If I Ever Get Drunk Again
The Marble Arch
The Mistletoe Bough
Nancy Lee
Naughty Jemima Brown
Not for Joseph, Not for Joe
The Old Armchair
Old Joe the Boat is Going Over
On a See-Saw
Put a bit of Powder on it, Father
Rosin-a-Beau
Saving Them All for Mary
Slave Driving Farmers
Two Lovely Black Eyes
Uncle Walter's March
Uncle Walter's Tune
Up the Chimney Pot
Wake Up Johnny
When the Cock begins to Crow
Wheel Your P'rambulator
While Shepherds Watched
Your Faithful Sailor Boy
People's Stage Tapes 11
At Rambling Green
Balaclava
Down by the Dark Arches
I'll Hang my Harp on a Willow Tree
The Maid of Australia
Old Brown's Daughter
The Parson and the Clerk
The Pretty Ploughboy
The Rakish Young Fellow
The Reason Why (One Cold Morning in December)
The Rich Irish Girl (Let the Winds Blow High or Low)
Up to the Rigs of London Town
Van Diemen's Land
Root and Branch CD1
Won't You Come to Me in Canada
Topic 12TS392
A Country Life
An Old Man's Advice
The Bold Princess Royal
The Broomfield Wager
Cupid the Ploughboy
The Dandy Man
The Devil and the Farmer's Wife
The Hungry Army
I Wish, I Wish
Jack Hall
One Cold Morning in December
Peggy Bawn
Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Uncle Walter's Tune
Topic TSCD514
The Banks of Sweet Dundee
The Bold Fisherman
The Bold Princess Royal
A British Man of War*
The Cunning Cobbler
The Dark-Eyed Sailor*
The Deserter
The Devil and the Farmer's Wife
The Female Drummer*
The Handsome Cabin Boy
The Jolly Wagoner
The Lawyer (Mowing the Barley)
The Loss of the Ramilies*
Maids of Australia
The Pretty Ploughboy*
The Rakish Young Fellow
The Rambling Blade*
The Trees They do Grow High*
Two Jolly Butchers
Topic TSCD600
The Broomfield Wager
Topic TSCD651
Peggy Bawn
Topic TSCD652
A Ship to Old England Came*
Jack Tar Ashore*
Topic TSCD654
Van Diemen's Land*
Topic TSCD656 Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Topic TSCD660 Let the Wind Blow High or Low*
Topic TSCD664 The Hungry Army
Topic TSCD665 I Wish, I Wish One Cold Morning in December
Topic TSCD667 Jack Hall
Topic TSCD668 The Poacher's Fate*
Veteran Tapes VT108 Spanish Ladies Sons of Labour
Veteran Tapes VT109 Black-Eyed Susan The Topman and the Afterguard
Veteran Tapes VTC1CD Sons of Labour
Notes: Songs marked with an
asterisk on Topic CDs are alternate takes to the same songs issued on Leader albums.
VT108/9 are cassettes.
MT CDs 305 and 306 are issued together as a double set.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:19 AM

Thanks Steve.

I tracked down the Blaxhall Ship film (http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5) after finding the Lomax recordings and some recent Ship Inn sessions on Youtube. It's relevant to what the information about Walter, alongside the "current state of folk music' discussion had me thinking. As Howard Jones said earlier "Pardon was a man of the 20th century". The participants of the revival new a lot of people of his generation.

If we focus on people's behaviour and repertoire as a whole, not just your "what we would call 'folk song'" how much of the revival is really a progression? Circumstances change (and it looks like they heat the pubs better now) but people don't much - otherwise we wouldn't understand the characters in the old songs or the books that Walter read. People got together at the Mitre Tavern in 1880, at the Ship Inn in the 1950s and at pubs in 2019 to sing a mix of old and new songs. But isn't it a progression rather than a re-enactment?

Walter looked back to his Uncle Billy and grandfathers day, those who heard him look back to Walter and other source singers. In the 'current state of folk music' thread Vic Smith quotes Jim Causley saying "Our generation hasn't got them, we have got you lot."


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM

Walter's repertoire
Jim

All Along The Barley
A11 For TheGrog (inc.)
All Jolly Fellows (frag.)
All The Little Chickens In The garden
As I Wandered By The Brookside
Bacton Abbey Rhyme (French Invasion)
Balaclava
Banks of Sweet Dundee
Banks of The Clyde
Bells Are Ringing For Sarah.
Best Old Wife In The World (frag.)
Birds Eggs Rhyme Black Eyed Susan
Black Velvet Band (chorus only.)
Blow The Winds I O (see Ten Thousand Miles)
Bold Fisherman
Bold Princess Royal
Bonny Bunch Of Roses
Bright Golden Store
British Man Of War
Broomfield Hill
Bumble Bee Rhyme
Burningham Boys (frag.)
Butter And Cheese And All (see Greasy Old Cook)
Bush Of Australia (see Maid of Australia)
Calendar Rhymes
Caroline And her Young Sailor Bold
Carrion Crow
Charge of The Light Brigade (see Balaclava)
Cliff Hornpipe (melodeon)
Coltishall School Treat (frag)
Come And See The Kaiser (Harland Road)
Come To Me In Canada
Cook And The Masher (see Greasy Old Cook)
Country Life
Cuckoo (frag)
Cunning Cobbler
Cupid The Ploughboy
Cock-a-Doodle-Doo
Dandy Man
Dark Eyed sailor
Darling Dinah Kitty Anna Maria (frag)
Derby Ram (frag)
Deserter
Devil And The Farmer's Wife
Dolly Varden Hat (frag)
Down By The Abbey Ruins        (frag)
Dow By The Dark Arches
Duke Of Marlborough        (see Generals All)
Early In The Morning        (melodeon)
Fai'hful Sailor Boy Farmer's Boy
Farmer's Boy Parody (see I'll Have No Union)
Famyard Song (frag)
Female Cabin Boy
Female Drummer        
Footprints In The Snow
French Invasion Rhyme (see Bacton Abbey Rhyme)
Game Of Dominoes (frag)
Generals All
Geniveve
Goodbye King (election parody)
Gooseberry Tree
Gorgonzola Cheese (frag)
Grace Darling
Grandfather1s Clock
Grand March (melodeon)
Greasy Old Cook
Green Bushes
Green Grows The Laurels (frag)
Handsome Cabin Boy (see Female Cabin Boy)
Hanging On The Old barbed Wire
Hang Tom Dolphin (Bell rhyme)
Harland Road (see Come And See the Kaiser)
Hard To Say Goodbye To Your Own Native Land
Has Anybody Seen Our cat (frag)
Haste To The Wedding (melodeon)
Help One Another Boys
Here'sTo The Grog (see All For The Grog)
Here's To Those        (toast)
Here We Sit (rhyme)
Hockey Tar Tarry Tee (frag)
Hold The Fort
Home Boys Home (frag)
Hungry Army
Huntsman
Husband Taming
I Don't Care If There's A Girl There
If I Were A Blackbird
If I Were A Policeman
If Those Lips Could Only Speak (parody)
I'll Be All smiles Tonight (frag)
I'll Beat The Drum Again (see Female Drummer)
I'll come        Back To You Sweetheart
I'll Hang        My Harp On A Willow Tree
I'll Have No Union (see Farmer's Boy Parody)
I'm Yorkshire, Though In London
In Our Backyard Last Night
The Irish Girl (see Let The Wind Blow High Or Low)
Insect Rhymes
Irish Molly
I Traced Her Footprints (see Footprintsin The Snow)
It's All For The Money (frag)
It's Hard To Say Goodbye To Your Own Native Land
I Wish, I Wish
I Wore A tunic
Jackie Boy (frag)
Jack Hall
Jack Tar On Shore
John Barleycorn (frag)
John Reilly (frag)
Jolly Butchers (see two Joily Butchers)
Jolly waggoner Jones' Ale
Jump Out Of Bed (When The Cocks Begin To Crow)
Kitty, Come, Come (frag)
Kitty Wells
Lads in Navy Blue
Lads of High Renown (see Poachers fate)
Lawyer (see Mowing the Barley)
Little Ball of Yarn
Local rhyme about farmer
      " ladybirds
      " snails
Lord Lovell
Loss of The Rami lies
Maid of The Mill (frag)
Maids of Australia
Marble Arch
Men of Merry England (frag)
God Bless Him (toast)
Millerís Three Sons
Miner's Dream of Home (frag)
Miner's Return
Mistletoe Bough
More Trouble In My native Land
Mother Shipton's rhyme
Mowing The Barley (see The Lawyer)
My Little Blue Apron Is Full (frag)
My Old master Told Me        (frag)
Nancy Fancied a Soldier (frag)
Naughty Jemmima Brown
Not For Joe (frag)
Oak And The Ash (frag)
Oh Joe, Do Let Me Go (frag)
Old Brown's daughter
Old Joe, The Boat Is Going Over (melod)
Old Man's Advice
Old Mother Pittle Pots (f rag)
Old Woman of Yorkshire
One Cold Morning In December
On The See-Saw (melod)
Parson Brown (frag)        
Parson And The Clerk        
Pegc Band (old version)        
Peggy Band (John Clare version )        
Polly Vaughan (frag)        
Poacher's Fate        (Lads of High Renown)        ,
Poor Little Joe        (frag)        
Poor Roger Is Dead        
Poor Smuggler's Boy        
Pretty Ploughboy
Raggle Taggle Gypsies        
Rakish Young Fellow        
Rambling Blade        
Ramilies (see Loss of The Ramilies)
Rigs of London (see Up to The Rigs)
Ring The Bell watchman        
Rise Sally Walker
Rosin-A-Beau        
Sailor Cut Down        
Saucy Sailor Boy        
Seventeen Come Sunday        
Shamrock, Rose and Thistle (frag)        
Ship To Old England Came        
Ship That never returned        
Ship sailed Away From Old England (frag)        
Silver Threads Among The gold        
Skipper And His Boy        
Slave Driving Farmers        
Soldier (Butcher) Boy        
Somebody Had To fetch The Flag        
Sons Of Labour        
Spanish Cavalier (frag)        
Spanish Ladies        
Stars and Stripes and John Bull Forever (frag)
Steam Arm        
Stick To Your Mother Son
Strawberry Fair        
Susan, The Pride Of Kildare        
Suvlah Bay        
Sweet Belle Mahone (frag)        
Ten Thousand Miles (Blow The Winds 1O)        ,
Thatís How You Get Served When Your Old (frag)
They-ll Do It (frag)        
They Doní t Grow On Tops of Trees
Thirty Nine/Forty Five Star        
Thornaby Woods        
Topman And The Afterguard        
Trampwoman's Tragedy        
Transports (see Van Dieman's Land)
Trees They Do Grow High        
Turning The Mangle (frag)        
Two Butchers (see Jolly butchers)
Two _ovely Black Eyes        
Uncle Walter's march (melod)        
Uncle Walter's Tune (melod)        
Unnamed Tune (melod)
Up To The Rigs        
Van Deiman's Land
Wake Up Johnny        
Wanderer        
Wearing Of The Green (frag)        
We're All Sawing        
Weather Rhymes        
We've Both been Here Before        
Wheel Your Perambulator (frag)
When Father Joined The Territorials (frag)
When London's Asleep        
When The Cocks begin To Crow        
When The Fields Are White With Daisies        
When You wake Up In The Morning        
While Shepherds Watched        
Whistling Woman (rhyme)
Will You Come Back To Bombay        (frag)        
Wind Blows High        
Wing Wang Waddles        
Wish They'd Do It Now (frag)        
Woman Dog an Walnut Tree (rhyme)        
Woman's Work Is Never Done (frag)
Would You Like To Know How Bread Is Made (frag)
Wreck of The Lifeboat        
Wreck of The Ramilies (see Loss of The Ramilies)
Write Me A Letter From Home
Yarmouth Hornpipe (melod)
Your- Bother John (rhyme about local farmer)


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:38 AM

Just thought, to get this going again perhaps a discography of Walter might help (it may be out-of-date)
These are all worth searching out - I can help if anybody is looking for something specific

Walter Pardon Discography
A Proper Sort; Leader LED 2063 Yorkshire 1975   
Our Side Of The Baulk Leader LED 2111 Yorkshire 1977
An English Folk Music Anthology Folkways FE 83553 New York 1981
A Country Life Topic 12TS392 London 1982
Bright Golden Store Home Made Music HMM LP 301 London 1984
Up To The Rigs Peoples Stage Tape 11 Totnes, Devon 1987
The Horkey Load [Nos. 1 and 2] Veteran Tapes VT108 & VT 109 Suffolk 1988
Hidden English Topic TSCD600 London 1996
Voice Of The People [Nos. 1, 2, 4, 6, 10, 14, 15, 17, 18] Topic TSCD651 to 670 London 1998
A Century Of Song E.F.D.S.S. EFDSSCD02 London 1998
A World Without Horses Topic TSCD514 London 2000
Put A Bit Of Powder On It Father Musical Traditions MTCD 305-6 Glos 2000

"I have not lost interest Jim."
Delighted to hear it Nick - I'd like to hear some of your findings on English Travellers sometime
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

Yes I've read that somewhere. A singer or member of the audience taking your hand. Almost like a connection to the rest of humanity from the world of the song. Until now I thought this happened with Sean Nos singers only.
I am pretty busy today and out singing again tonight. If I don't answer immediately I promise I have not lost interest Jim.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:10 AM

"I understand that Walters house was sold after his death, does anyone know who sold it and who bought it."
Why - are you looking for somewhere to live Dick
I would guess it was ought up by someone locally - it certainly hasn't had much done to it from the look of it
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 AM

I understand that Walters house was sold after his death, does anyone know who sold it and who bought it.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM

"We don't want to fight - we just want to learn about him."
Neither do I Joe
I've spent half this thread trying to get past Walter's culinary idiosyncracies when it should have been discussing Walter as a singer
I didn't "misread" that - that's what people chose to do
I have masses of information on Walter if I am allowed to put it up in an atmosphere where it will be treated with sensitivity and intelligence
I'd give my right arm to be allowed to do so
I have no intention of discussing our diffenences - I've said wht I believe nees to be said on that
If people want to go on with Walter I'd be more than happy to
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 01:07 AM

Jim, we just want to know about Walter Pardon. That's all.

We don't want to fight - we just want to learn about him.

He is one of the most interesting people in folk music.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 12:17 AM

Jim - most of what disgruntles you this last week or more,
is down to you persistently misreading and misconstruing the intentions
of other posters..
Then amplifying it out of proportion in your own mind...

That is objective fact, clear for anyone following this thread to see..
Folks participating here [bar one possible exception...???]
do so out of respect for Walter Pardon,
and a desire to learn more about him.
Nobody is here to destroy his reputation.

Only you won't realise this,
or do, but are stubbornly refusing to recognise the positive intentions
of your fellow mudcatters..???

This has been explained to you time and time again,
yet you continue complaining about things you have mistakenly taken the wrong way...

It is so frustrating..
we need you here because of your wealth of knowledge,
and your love of promoting folk music.

But the irrational petty disruptive way you are behaving
is undermining all the positive good you bring to mudcat.

Never the less, I seriously value your input here when you manage to stay on topic..
I will continue sifting out the useful posts and info in this thread,
and bookmark it for reference.
While I listen to his tracks online...

My interest in Walter Pardon renewed as direct result of this thread existing...


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:26 PM

nobody has insulted Walter.
NICK,The salient point in relation to vic smiths post was the wording somebody SAID TO MCINTYRE. and that bob copper had possibly altered it


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM

"I can see how people who knew Walter may uneasy about the personal details."
I have no problems with the personal details Jag - I might have if Walter had not been the wonderful, friendly and intelligent man that he was, but that wasn't the case
What has appalled me here is the insulting and trivialising on one of three of England's most important singers
First, after us being told on the other thread that he was a poor singer whose position in the oral tradition was 'dubious' - we were told he had no place on a discussion about today's revival - somebody actually showed him the door by pushing him onto another thread
I was peeved at this and decided not to take part until the discussion degenerated into a snide discussion about what he had for breakfast
That went on for a little while until Nick and I struck up a discussion beween us
This morning (sorry yesterday morning) a handful of heroes turned up - someone who had participated in the breakfast bit told us that the thread had run its course and had lost direction, someone else told be I was wasting my time trying to give our recordings of Walter and others away and went ballistic when I explained why thought it was important, accusing me of having a chip on my shoulder - then back to the trivialising by replacing discussions on his Walter's singing with unimportant questions about obscure relatives by someone who had shown no interest in Walter as a singer - not a sign of Walter as an important singer on the horizon
Sorry folks - I really don't believe that is the way to honour one of England's great folk singers

I have an added problem with this
Pat and I collected for over thirty years - we're still at it spasmodically
We made friends with nearly everybody we recorded - Mikeen McCarthy and Mary Delaney became our closest friends among the Travellers - so when someone writes them off as "Thieves, poachers and scavengers", they are friends he is insulting
Walter's friendship lasted twenty years until his death - we visited him regularly (not just to record) and he stayed with us often - Pat has around forty of the letters he wrote us before we had a phone installed for him
I would have been pissed off at the treatment he has received if he had never known a song
Sorry - needed to get that off my cheat - now perhaps we can move on

Nick - welcome back - hope you had a great day singing
I'll deal with this more fully tomorrow if you're up to it but for now
One of the things we first noticed with some of the older singers is their custom of internalising a song - they didn't try to push it but they appeared to be reliving something and passing on information rather than performing
Blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney would occasionally stop singing and say - "Sorry - it's too heavy"
We thought she was having trouble with the pitch, but in fact she was becoming overwhelmed by what she was singing about - this happened with big ballads and comic songs alike
It took us four goes to get a full recording of 'Well Done Donnelly' (The Tinker) and Kilkenny Louse-House, without her bursting out laughing
West of Ireland singers would grab the hand of one of the listeners and wind it around in a circle while starting straight at their face, "telling their song" one-to-one
Mikeen McCarthy was an intimate singer - I've heard people comment that audience members felt he was singing specifically for them because of his conversational style

I don't think this was just an Irish thing
Harry Cox became so absorbed in his song that he would occasionally spit out a comment on the story - he did this with 'Betsy the Serving Maid' and Van Dieman's Land and I'm sure there were others
I think Sam was different - I never saw him live but I was quite surprised when I was told he was quite physical when he sang (confirmed on the wonderful 'The Singer and the Song' film
He may have gestured, but the timbre of his voice makes him quite an intimate singer
We've already discussed Walter's use of the microphone or "lookinng down his nose" in order to cut out the audience
Sorry - it's a bit late for this - maybe tomorrow
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:00 PM

Dick me old mate MACINTYRE is rhyming slang for fire!!! Wot abaart all those bloomin' days we spent in the smoke? Dint cha' learn nuffin??
Gawd 'n Bennett


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:54 PM

Back from singing and just catching up.
Before I left Jim, you made a very interesting observation that I would like you to say a few more words about if you will.
You referred to Telling a song rather than Selling a song, which I think is an excellent turn of phrase.
The selling a song aspect of performance would refer to 'Showman Singers' (that's how I understood it). Walter Pardon was certainly Telling a song, however his contemporaries Johnny Doughty, and Sam Larner (to a lesser extent) were showman singers.
My question is, do you believe that the showman singer is a more modern style of performance, influenced by the Music Hall for example, or have they always been with us? (As far as you know-I know you're not the oracle or have a crystal ball) Secondly I have not come across an overtly song selling performance in the Irish tradition, or have I not looked hard enough. It also occurs to me that singers may have separate repertoires for pub and home. I understand that this is getting into the discipline of context.

Finally I would like to continue picking your brains about John Reilly, however I am aware this might need to be a separate thread. Let me know if you don't mind.
My question is actually about five questions really, so thanks in advance.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 05:17 PM

I can recommend Ginette Dunn's 'The Fellowship of Song' as a detailed study of pub sings and repertoires in East Suffolk which includes the Blaxhall Ship.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM

Hi jag,
There is a wonderful film of a session in the Blaxhall Ship in the 50s with lots of old source singers performing. I have a vague recollection it is online somewhere, but if not the film along with several others of British traditions is available from EFDSS on a DVD. I have recorded some sessions in the 60s and remember some pub sessions from about 1962.
There was very little of what we would call 'folk song' being performed, Still I Love Him, Old Johnny Booker maybe and lots of wartime songs and sod's opera pieces from WWII, rugby songs. Of course some would say that what was being sung was all folksong because the 'folk' were singing em. A common one was My Brother Sylvest from about 1906. My uncles picked up songs just after the war in the forces and some of them were folk songs still being sung.

Not sure what you mean by a 21st century pub song and tunes session. I don't think a tunes session if such existed before WWII would have been anything like those of today. What went on in the Blaxhall Ship is not the same as a modern day singaround in that they didn't go round the room in a particular direction and being very much a local event they knew each other's repertoire, but the strict rule was 'one singer one song' and nobody would dare encroach on anyone else's repertoire until the singer had passed on.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 04:32 PM

It is subjective Dick and I don't think it helpful to put our old singers into a pissing competition.
no pissing competition just my subjective opinion, it is hepful to newcomers to tdytional song to be made aware of other singers, joseph taylor phil tanner,harry cox, three outstanding singers.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM

vic smith said
The Copper Family never, to my knowledge added to or augmented or changed their songs through their extensive contact with the folk clubs, though I know that the way that they sung them was discussed
i disagree and would draw your attention to the old dun cow caught fire,as sung by harry champion
there was Brown, upside down
Mopping up the whisky on the floor
"Booze, booze, booze" the firemen cried
As they come a knockin' at the door
"Don't let em in till it's all mopped up"
Someone said to MacIntyre.
And we all got blue blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire

MacIntyre was presumably nearest the door. This is roughly the same as Harry Champion version and makes more sense than the version bob copper possibly altered

And there was Brown upside down
Lappin' up the whiskey on the floor.
"Booze, booze!" The firemen cried
As they came knockin' on the door (clap clap)
Oh don't let 'em in till it's all drunk up
And somebody shouted MacIntyre! MACINTYRE!
And we all got blue-blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM

I understand that Walters house was sold after his death, does anyone know who sold it and who bought it.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:42 PM

No tabloid type interest at all, Jag. Just a genuine interest to know more.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:35 PM

I can see how people who knew Walter may uneasy about the personal details. I find tabloid-like interest in details living people only known from a public presence distastful.

However, Walter is gone and if he is to be held up as the end of a thread of traditional song then some domestic and socio-economic details help us bridge the ensuing gap*. He left texts that hang together well without unintelligible bits from miss-hearing. It sounds like he had the ability and opportunity to do any polishing needed to make the stories work.

For whatever reason we appreciate the "our side of the baulk" stories. Does it help us imagine we were there receiving some of the transmission?

* folklorist would probably disagree but it sounds to me as if the gap is fairly well bridged by people who knew and heard him and some of the other later source musicians. I asked earlier - how does a 21st century pub song and tunes session compare with what went on in the 'singing room' at the Mitre Tavern?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:29 PM

not interested in them

Of course I am. I am also interested in the man and his family. These things are not mutually exclusive you know.

As I said, there is no problem if you cannot answer my questions or find them trite. Other people may like to know though so, if you are not interested, please do not interfere.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:46 PM

"If you cannot answer my questions, that's fine."
Please don't do this Dave - I'm gettng a litle tird of your passing the buck
Yiou may have been interested in Walter as long as you say but that has not mainifested itself here in any way shapoe or fiorm and they ' unimportant family details
How about the couple of hundred songs walter put back into the repertoire - not interested in them

"only to find the same old same old petty squabbling"
Squabbling suggest a two-way street - I have just tried to pass on information about Walter and wan't doing too bad until we were invaded by people who hadn't put in much of an appearance beforehand telling us we'd gone on too long and the subject was meandering nd then trying to drift the thread onto exactly the subject that Walter had been barred from   

"So then, did Walter prefer Y fronts, jockey shorts, long Johns, or go commando...???"
Yeah - that's about their level - I really don't need judgement from someone who mars threads with something like that
I'll try again tomorrow
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM

Why the grin of you were serious Dave

There was no grin, Jim. It is a question mark.

you have shown no interest in Walter or his singing

I have been interested in Walter's singing since I first heard it at least 30 years ago. I am also interested in him as a man. Hence the questions. What I am getting less and less interested in is the Jim Carroll show and your increasingly irrational rants.

If you cannot answer my questions, that's fine. No problem. But that is no reason to have a go at me for asking.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:06 PM

Yes.. see wot i did there...?????

That is an example of a truly crass trivialising stupid question..
just so's folks can keep things in perspective...

Though to an underwear social historian it is probably a very profound question
relating to research conducted on post war working class traditions...???


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:36 PM

I've been away from this thread over 24 hours
and come back to catch up,
only to find the same old same old petty squabbling
bloating, distracting, and ruining what should be an ideal focused opportunity
to learn more about Walter Pardon...

I, and other seekers of information/education, would hope to gain better than this
from his old friends, and serious folk experts...

Newcomers to the subject of revered old source singeres
are entitled to ask reasonable questions about their lives and personalities;
and the social context they existed within.
That is what late 20th, and 21st century education trains enquiring younger folks to do.
To aquire the skills of critical analysis..
Not to soak up scraps of recieved biased 'wisdom'...

Curt grudging dismissive replies do not help anyone...

Imho.. None of the questions I've read here so far are that outrageouly prurient, or offensive
to Walter Pardon's memory...


So then, did Walter prefer Y fronts, jockey shorts, long Johns, or go commando...???


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM

Installment of Nicholas Nickleby - of course
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM

"What is wrong with trying to get a feel for "family incidentals"?"
Why the grin of you were serious Dave - you have shown no interest in Walter or his singing, why on earth would you want to know about mother's names or cousins
I'd have thought that Walter's importance as as singer would have kept a serious folkie occupied for years ?

Walter said he 'felt' they were old to him and by and large he was right, according to musician friends anyway - I'm no authority
He seemed to approach folk songs with the attitude "I know one when I hear one" - I never knew him to be wrong about that

Can we clear up this thing about his reading
Walter read because he loved good storytelling - I would suggest he was no different than those Londoners who queued up fot the next instrumental of Nicholas Nickleby - a well-told story was a good book to him, be it Dickens, A G Henty, Frank Richards or Zane Grey
He approached literature in the same way as the Travellers we found approached the big ballads
He had a phenomenal memory for the plots and characters in his books - and elsewhere
We watched once watched Malcolm Taylor's jaw fall open once as he reeled off the top of his head the names of the players in about five-years worth of English Test matches
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM

I think the fact that he was 'well-read' is important. The information that his grandfather played clarinet in the church band presumably came from Walter. How much of what Walter knew about a church band came from the family and how much did he get the same way as a lot of us - via Thomas Hardy.

His observation about the meleodeon bellows pull "And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth [century], they finish this way, pulled out, look." begs the question - how did he know those tunes went back that far. What else had he read?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM

In a thread about Walter Pardon I see nothing wrong in trying to find out as much as possible. What is wrong with trying to get a feel for "family incidentals"? It may even enable researchers to get a better feel for the man himself. Looking at census records, for instance, lets us know who was living in the cottage while Walter grew up and tells us that during WW2, while Walter was away, an airmen from the nearby airfield lodged there.

While there is no doubt that Walter was a fine singer and generous man, important to the folk revival, he was also a man with many other facets. Things like his family relationships, his other interests and, yes, even what he ate all go to painting the full picture. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities yet again, Jim.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM

Steve Gardham wrote:-
You seem to place a lot of weight on Walter's discrimination and compartmentalisation of his repertoire. That is beyond question. You also seem to indicate that this is typical of source singers in England. I presume from that you have studied what is known about other traditional singers like Harry Cox for instance. I have also studied this sort of information and done a lot of recording of source singers in the 60s and 70s. I only know of one other singer, quite celebrated at the time, who was capable of/desirous of compartmentalising his songs in this way.

I find this very interesting and would like to extend it to the influence of their contact with the folk revival had on the source singers, their singing and their repertoire. Initially, I would like to stick to my own experience of what I remember of these singers and folk clubs in Sussex from the 1960s and 1970s onwards.
I have only realised in retrospect that the contact between the clubs and the old singers in Sussex was closer and more symbiotic than in other parts of the country - not all the clubs, of course, but certainly our club in Lewes along with the clubs in Horsham and Chichester. Other clubs saw that, for example, an evening with The Copper Family or Gordon Hall ensured a good crowd and (I suspect) booked them for that reason. Some comments on individuals: -

The Copper Family never, to my knowledge added to or augmented or changed their songs through their extensive contact with the folk clubs, though I know that the way that they sung them was discussed. I remember Bob telling me - in the presence of his son, John, that he had said when running through the songs, 'Hang on, boy, slow down a bit.... We're the Coppers; we're not The Young Tradition." Peter Bellamy was a huge fan of the Coppers but in his turn, John Copper was a huge fan of Peter. However, if you compare the speed of the early family recordings. Bob & Ron with their fathers, Jim & John with the current speed of songs in a live family performance then those early recordings you will find that generally, the old boys sang faster. Any singer will tell you that when you are in front of an enthusiastic audience that knows and loves the choruses that the pace of the song will be slowed.

George Belton lived near the Chichester club and was there every Friday and would turn up at our Saturday club pretty frequently whenever he could get a lift (usually Bob Lewis or Mary Aitchison). He and Johnny Doughty were the only ones who ever, as far as I remember, ever learned modern songs that he had heard in clubs. His way with Sydney Carter's Mixed Up Old Man became one of his party pieces, but the clubs also had another effect on his repertoire. Sometimes a younger singer would be singing a traditional song and his bright old eyes would light up and at the end of the song he would go into a huddle with his wife. A few weeks later he would turn up with a different version of that song. I am convinced that contact with folk clubs and festivals had a positive effect on his 'dormant' repertoire from his younger days.

George Spicer was the one who was most wary of folk clubs and was full of incisive questions about them - (Why do a lot of your singers sing with their eyes closed?) - but he must have got enough out of them to come back time and again. He was always the 'go to' person for an entertaining song after a darts match, a produce show or a cricket match - he was an umpire in village cricket for over 40 years. The skills that he had gained in singing in those circumstances proved to be very useful in folk clubs. His son, Ron, on the other hand loved folk clubs right from his first visit. He and Doris were our most regular supporters for over a decade. He started off with his dad's song but then he learned all sorts of others at a phenomenal rate, mainly traditional but country comedy and modern as well. I could point you to some of his modern songs that have been given a Roud Index number.
Johnny Doughty was certainly what you would call a character. He was another who could command an audience and had no trouble putting himself over in front of an audience. I had helped Jim Lloyd construct the line-up a concert at the Gardner Centre at the U. of Sussex and Johnny was amongst them. The concert was to be recorded and broadcast. Johnny kept stepping to the side of them and he sang directly to the audience. After his first song, Jim, as compere, came on and Johnny was asked to come backstage to be told - by me - to sing into the microphones. "Those bloody things are a nuisance. I can't see people's faces." I don't think his songs were broadcast. At one of the National Folk Festivals, Eddie Upton was his minder. Johnny had been asked to open a concert there for The Spinners and he was very worried about this. What would he suitable to sing in that situation? His wife made a suggestion. "Don't be daft, Meg! I learned that one off one of their records!"

Gordon Hall is a unique case amongst these singers. He actively sought out songs, versions, different tunes and I was one of the people that Gordon had long telephone conversations about where, for example, could he find more versions of Hind Horn. He wrote hilarious parodies of traditional songs, set his own tunes to broadsides like The Chichester Merchant (Roud 29941 ). His interest went far beyond the English tradition. His elder brother Albert moved to France after the 2nd World War and Gordon learned French songs from his brother. I had conversations with Gordon about which Portuguese Fado singers we liked just as I had chats with Bob Copper about early country blues.
Bob Blake was lovely as a singer and as a person. He had mixed for years with his contemporaries from the pre-folk revival singers in Sussex. To me he was one of them. Tony Wales. Nick Dow, John Howson, Mike Yates all collected songs from him but on investigation Mike found that Bob had not learned the songs from his community and therefore he was not a traditional singer. Quite a difficult decision and at one time, Mike waqs berating himself over this. My own view on this in that if a bird sings like a cuckoo, flies like a cuckoo and is a nest parasite, then it is probably a cuckoo. Bob Blake's recordings can be found in the Roud Index.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:57 AM

"appears to mean doubled in height."
It was altered significantly inside, but I'm not sure how
I've n idea where the old bedroom was - I should imagine that it followed the Irish layout of a large all-purpose room which you entered at the centre and two small bedrooms at either end - some Irish cottages have an additional tiny loft room reached by a ladder
'Modernisation changed it to a small lobby in the centre with a flight of stairs facing the front door, a living room on the left and a kitchen/scullery on the right
Upstairs two bedrooms and a bathroom
At the far end from the road there was a coal bunker


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM

Jag,

Re Walter's home. Jim describes it thus:

Walter's home was originally a single storey labourers cottage standing on its own small piece if land - it was 'modernised' in the 1950s)

To clarify "modernised", in the photographs to which I refer It is a two story house of quite reasonable size but there is a pretty clear distinction on the end wall showing the outline of a smaller single storey building.

So it seems to be correct that Walter did live in a small cottage until the 1950s. Jim's phrase "modernised" appears to mean doubled in height.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:06 AM

"Personally i think harry cox was a better singer than Sam larner and abetter singer than Walter, "
It is subjective Dick and I don't think it helpful to put our old singers into a pissing competition - five over a pint or a meal but not on a public forum where some of Walter's old friends might be looking in
Personally, I found all the old singers I listened to brought something to our folksongs that was largely lacking in revival singers - I always regarded it as a third dimension - a depth of feeling for and understanding of the subject matter
Far too many singers nowadays attempt to sell the song rather than 'tell it'
The old Irish singers used to say, 'tell me a song' - that works for me
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 09:05 AM

I'm not suggesting that you are trying to prove him wrong Jag, Jag but others have before now
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 09:03 AM

Can I just say that we made it quite clear in our article that Walter used the melodion as a guide for himself to judge the age of tunes - whether it was accurate or not is immaterial - it worked for him and in our experience, his judgement of tune ages was pretty fair
We recorded him elsewhere on this subject and he said that the only tune he can remember ever being thrown on was 'Black-Eyed Susan' (he discussed this with Mike Yates who wrote an article on his tunes, I think)
I'm no musician, so I can't say whether his method was right or wrong, and to be frank, if I could, I wouldn't try to prove him wrong - if it worked for him, it worked for him - end of story
Walter wasn't a good musician - he never claimed to be and I never saw him play his melodeon or his fiddle in public
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM

Personally i think harry cox was a better singer than Sam larner and abetter singer than Walter, but a subjective opinion only. Iprefer Walters singing to Sam Larner, they are all good, and their charcters are reflected in their singing to some extent


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

"I was once told by a D/G box player, when being encouraged to pick up tunes by ear in a session, that finishing with the bellows extended was a strong pointer to E minor (that included E Dorian). Was Walter suggesting something like that?"

I'm sure he was, Jag, and I went into this on an old Mudcat thread to which Jim had posted that piece of information. I also mentioned it above but didn't explain the detail.

Whether that's a reliable marker of antiquity is dubious, since plenty of old songs are in the major, but it's certainly true that Music Hall songs are (to the best of my knowledge) never in the Dorian.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM

THis is intolerable
None of you have taken a part in these discussion =s
You come here and claim that this thread ahs lost its way or gone on to long
You flood the thread about one of England's most important singers with family incidentals with
Now I am being told I am wasting my time in trying to share our archive with singers (many of whom are now using it)
You won't allow discussion to take place on the other thread and now you seem set fair to wreck this one
Is this really what today's revival has come to ?
I started none of this but I have little doubt I will be blamed for it
Enough is enough eh fellers !!!
Jim Carroll


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