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Review: Walter Pardon; Research

Related thread:
Walter Pardon - which song first? (45)


GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,jag 12 Nov 19 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,jag 12 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Nov 19 - 02:25 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 08:42 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 08:36 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 08:36 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 06:02 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,ike Yates 11 Nov 19 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Mike Yates 11 Nov 19 - 02:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 19 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 12:25 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Nov 19 - 10:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 19 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM
Vic Smith 11 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 09:25 AM
Howard Jones 11 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 09:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 08:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Nov 19 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,jag 11 Nov 19 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 03:10 AM
The Sandman 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 19 - 01:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:55 AM

It seems to me that Matthew Ord has more musicality in his finger than some people who opine that he has probably never sung a song have in their ….

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=matthew+ord&&view=detail&mid=2BD089741184911661872BD08974118491166187&&FORM=VDRVRV


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM

Sorry that last was in response to jag.

We have so little of the raw data on which conclusions about Pardon are based easily available that it isn't always easy to decide what Pardon was referring to. Some of his comments appear to have been related to what he thought while he was singing in public, a task he seems to have found somewhat nerve-wracking as he says something to the effect that he likes a microphone to hide behind. Selected extracts from one or more interviews have been posted on Mudcat threads, if you wanted to judge for yourself … I think it is on a thread entitled 'Traditional Singers Talking'.

In a very early interview, Pardon says that he wrote lyrics down in the presence of Billy. He explains that Billy could not write them down as he had injured his hand. This is in one of the British Library archive interviews available online. However, if Carroll and Mackenzie had to help him to learn ones he thought he had forgotten (and we don't appear to know how many these comprised, or which ones), perhaps he lost or destroyed the notes he made at the time of learning? As so often, precise knowledge about Pardon is so difficult to come by.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM

I don't know. Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie have claimed that they helped him to remember songs that he thought he had forgotten. So it isn't as if he held all of them whole in memory over all the years he did not sing with others.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM

Thank you for your useful and relevant contribution, Jim.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:10 AM

This appears to have moved on from undermining the validity of the singers reputations as 'tradition bearers' to attacking the work carried out by 'revival' collectors
I have noted in other arguments that the trend in today's research scholarship has become largely based on tearing down the work of pioneers and replacing it with modern paper-chasing
This began seriously with the publication of David Harker's somewhat depressingly distasteful 'Fakelore', a sort of 'assassin's handbook' which was dedicated to 'taking out' all the earlier collectors by taking their work out of the contexts of the times they were living in - giants like Child, Sharp, Kidson, Broadwood.... whose work was based on face-to-face conversations with the singers
The attention now seems to have switched to modern collectors like Reg Hall, Mike Yates, Roy Palmer, Bob Thomson and Pat and I (must remember to get the locks changed)

I've never been part of the academic side of folk song - I found it far too Ivory Towerish and self absorbed - a club that had evolved its own language to keep outsiders out
I have always believed that one of the greatest gaps in our knowledge of folk music and song is the absence of the voices of the singers and musicians down the ages who gave us our songs and music - and a lifetime of enjoyment
The revivalist collectors have, to some small degree, managed to fill part of that gap   
Reg Hall, melodeon, fiddle and piano player and dancer, spent many, many hours talking to the older generations of folk musicians and singers in London and elsewhere - he even helped set up a magazine based on what they had to say, 'Ethnic'
Mike Yates took the songs and voices of Travellers, Mary Ann Haynes, Jasper and Levi Smith, Joe Jones and great East Anglian, Walter Pardon.... and made their voices accessible to a wider audience
Roy Palmer, a member of the Grey Cock Folk Club, spent hours talking to Cecila Costello and George Dunn
One of the great experts on broadsides, a giant we lost to the US, Bob Thomson, caught Harry Cox's last years on tape and interviewed singers from North Norfolk and Cambridgeshire adding vastly to our knowledge and enjoyment of folk song - Bob first appeared on the scene singing folk songs with his friend, Mike Herring

I don't know if Newcastle University based Matthew Ord ever met a traditional singer or ever sang a song, but somehow I doubt it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 03:56 AM

Does what Walter says in the interview about visualising the stories in the songs and novels helps explain his good memory for them?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM

Psuedonymous "I'm assuming that the former farmhouse Pardon lived in was, as the film hints, called Parr Farm. I may be incorrect here. Where does 'former farmhouse' come from? The film shows that it was called "Parrs Farm Cottage" Two people posting on this thread have said that it was formerly a smaller habitation. We can see on the film that it had been something different, maybe stone built.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 02:25 AM

Yes, it was the census records I was going off. There is also a family tree on ancestry.com done by a member of the Pardon family. You would think that with all these researchers, who knew Walter so well, one of them may have picked up on little inconsisties like different names for his mother!


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:42 PM

Returning to Matthew Ord's piece: his title was 'Sound Recording in the British Folk Revival: ideology, discourse and practice 1950 to 1975.

Two of the people whose help he acknowledges feature in the 'discourse' relating to Walter Pardon: Bill Leader and Rod Stradling.


He makes the following statement at the outset, one which chimes with my thinking as I encountered the material that I did encounter and have refenced about Pardon (though his focus is mainly - but not exclusively - on the sound recordings, whereas I have looked at online discussions as well:

"The revival's recording practice took in a range of approaches, and contexts, including radio commentary, commercial studio productions and amateur field recordings. This thesis considers how these practices were mediated by revivalist beliefs and values, how recording was presented in revivalist discourse, and how its semiotic resources were incorporated into multimodal discourses about music, technology and traditional culture."

I hope that anybody who has read the opening piece will see why when I came across this piece, I found it so very interesting.

It would be interesting to discuss how far Ord's ideas apply to the material on Pardon that we have found so far. Maybe more on this later.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:36 PM

From Old Songs, New Discoveres – selected Papers from the 2018 Folk Song Conference
Jim Carroll
Joseph Taylor in Lincolnshire, from whom Percy Grainger noted ‘Brigg Fair’, also sang in his church choir, as well as at the music festival where Grainger first heard him, and had always had a keen interest in music. His granddaughter relates that he even called his dog Minim, because it had one spot on its back, saying, ‘he couldn’t be a crotchet, he has no stick, and anyhow he must have a musical name’.
That Taylor was musically self-aware was acknowledged by Grainger, albeit somewhat condescendingly: ‘He most intelligently realizes just what sort of songs collectors are after, distinguishes surprisingly between genuine traditional tunes and other ditties,and is, in every way, a marvel of helpfulness and kindliness.

Likewise, in Cumbria we find singers with wide and diverse repertoires choosing to sing only certain songs in particular contexts: ‘folk songs’ if they were requested, dialect songs at appropriate gatherings, hunting songs or songs on farming themes at hunt and shepherds’ meets, and so on. An example is John Collinson who, after winning the Kendal Folk Song Competition in 1905, was subsequently visited by both Percy Grainger and Anne Gilchrist, who also collected from two other singers in the Kirkby Lonsdale area,


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:36 PM

From Old Songs, New Discoveres – selected Papers from the 2018 Folk Song Conference
Jim Carroll
Joseph Taylor in Lincolnshire, from whom Percy Grainger noted ‘Brigg Fair’, also sang in his church choir, as well as at the music festival where Grainger first heard him, and had always had a keen interest in music. His granddaughter relates that he even called his dog Minim, because it had one spot on its back, saying, ‘he couldn’t be a crotchet, he has no stick, and anyhow he must have a musical name’.
That Taylor was musically self-aware was acknowledged by Grainger, albeit somewhat condescendingly: ‘He most intelligently realizes just what sort of songs collectors are after, distinguishes surprisingly between genuine traditional tunes and other ditties,and is, in every way, a marvel of helpfulness and kindliness.

Likewise, in Cumbria we find singers with wide and diverse repertoires choosing to sing only certain songs in particular contexts: ‘folk songs’ if they were requested, dialect songs at appropriate gatherings, hunting songs or songs on farming themes at hunt and shepherds’ meets, and so on. An example is John Collinson who, after winning the Kendal Folk Song Competition in 1905, was subsequently visited by both Percy Grainger and Anne Gilchrist, who also collected from two other singers in the Kirkby Lonsdale area,


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:53 PM

Can I suggest that this individual is treated as a troll before this useful and enjoyable thread is closed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:35 PM

The information that Walter went with the Methodists seems to me so interesting that I am disappointed that nobody else asked him about his early religious experience. It has been stated that none of his family sang in pubs: well, Methodists wouldn't would they? Interesting connection between this and Arthur Amis (1905 - 2000), who attended Knapton School for a time - as Pardon will have done - and also worked for a while in Knapton.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:11 PM

Sorry pfr for mess in last post. Trying to do two things at once.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:02 PM

Hello ike Yates

1 You raise the question whether the debates on the Enthusiasms pages of Mustrad are relevant to the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread was 'Walter Pardon; Research'. In carrying out research on the subject of Walter Pardon, one encounters material relating to the way his work was marketed, and debates relating to this, much of which is on the Mustrad site. Therefore, they are, I would suggest, relevant.

The post about which you raise concerns did refer people back to the Mustrad site, and it did not claim to have any answers or take sides on any misunderstandings or disputes that took place. I do not think there needs to be any concern that people might get the wrong end of any stick by reading the quotations from it out of context.

The original post references the Mustrad site as a source on Pardon, and you may find it helpful to refer back to this original post (while bearing in mind that thanks to the helpful contributions of some posters, that post would be revised before re-posting). It might give you some idea of the thoughts I had after looking at Mustrad and elsewhere for thoughts about Pardon.

2 Reading the Mustrad site does leave one aware of a number of controversies and difficulties relating to how the man and his work are to be seen. An example explicitly acknowledged, possibly by Mike Yates, is precisely where Pardon learned particular songs, as he is said to have given different accounts to different researchers of where he learned a particular song. Other problems are outlined in a 2000 article by Roly Brown. http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/pardon1.htm

3 I made the point that it has been argued that the 'powder' set should not have been released as it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. I wrote "There have been discussions also, for example, about whether 'Put a Bit of Powder on it' should have been released. I think it was argued that it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. All this seems to be relatively factual."

Your response to this, in so far as I understand it is a) that nothing of the sort has ever been argued as nobody who knew anything about folk would advance such an argument and b) in some sense I am so ignorant myself that I do not know that traditional singers usually have wide repertoires and this contributes to me talking 'utter nonsense', such that you would expect better from a person on Mudcat.

You are perfectly entitled to your point of view, of course. It seems to me (having the benefit of knowing what I do and do not know) that you are wrong about my state of knowledge.

I confess that I do not share your optimistic view about the state of knowledge of Mudcatters. Morever, I find that some of them struggle to engage in a sensible discussion about the contested concepts and ideologies that underpin so much of their thinking! I don't claim to be perfect myself here, of course. But I make an effort!

But for me, in a discussion, it might have been more helpful if you had simply asked me for a reference, for the evidence I was drawing on. In case you would like to read one such discussion, I refer you to the Mudcat thread headed 'Does it Matter What Music is Called'?

That thread also demonstrates that much discussion about folk and traditional music is underpinned by contested concepts and ideologies. They are the topic of the entire threads!

4 Thank you for the information about being the sound engineer on the film. I've made a note of it, and apologise if you feel this should have been mentioned before but was not.

Mr Carroll's allegations that I have made racist comments are wholly inaccurate, an example of what punkfolkrocker refers to as taking things out of context and twisting them. I mentioned racist attitudes to travellers with disapproval.

Dave the Gnome

Wiki isn't always a good guide. On Roger Dixon's relationship to Walter, Roger himself explains it in the Edge TV film, reference already given. He goes back further than one generation to trace a link, but there may have been more than one link. In Shakespeare's day the word simply meant 'relative', so it can be used loosely. In may day, one called all sorts of people 'uncle' or 'aunty', friends of one's parents, maybe at some point Dixon did refer to Walter as his uncle? Who knows?

You may be right that a person might be known by two names, I think that the

By the way, I suspect Pardon had some Scottish ancestry: it appears that many Scots came to Norfolk because of their expertise in farming, and a male ancestor married a Scottish woman. But I'm not claiming this left a great imprint upon the family.

I'm assuming that the former farmhouse Pardon lived in was, as the film hints, called Parr Farm. I may be incorrect here. I know that Pardon himself said there had been smallholdings and they shared the barn. The book on Knapton I mention above says some 'farms' in Knapton were as small as 5 acres. It has some info on Parr Farm, saying, if I remember aright that Roger Dixons family were there, people called Dixon. I'll maybe check this.


The census gives the girls in Thomas Cook Gee and his wife Ruth's family as Elizabeth, Maria, Emily and Alice. (using 1871, 81 and 91). I cannot see an Edith. Ruth was born in Paston (nee Thirtle).


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

By the way, this is one ofthe songs we were intending to use on the Topic project - I don't think is has been included on any other of Walter's albums
Jim

The Steam Arm
Such a curious tale I’m about to unfold
To one and all, what I’ve been told,
About a soldier stout and bold,
Whose wife ‘he had such a terrible scold.

Right toora loora loory addity, right to loora dear,
Right toora loora loory addity, right to loora dear.

At Waterloo he lost an arm,
Which caused him pain and quite alarm,
In length of time he grew quite calm,
For a shilling a day was a sort of a balm.
Right toora loora……………            

The story goes that every night
His wife would bang him left and right,
He thought in time, just out of spite
He’d have an arm, cost what it might.
Right toora loora……………..         

All at once he hit upon a scheme,
He’d have an arm that’d go by steam,
A ray of hope began to gleam,
That the force of arms would bring esteem.
Right toora loora……………..         

The arm was made and fixed on to,
A stump of his shoulder both neat and true,
You’d think it there by nature grew,
For it stuck in its place as tight as glue.
Right toora loora………………                  

In coming home, he reached the door,
His wife abuse began to pour,
He pulled a small peg and before
He’d time to think, she lay flat on the floor.
Right toora loora…………………….            

And soon the house with police was filled,
And half of them he damn near killed,
The arm it was so very well drilled,
That once in action, could not be stilled.
Right toora loora……………            

They took him up before the mayor,
The arm kept going all the while there,
The mayor said, shake your fist if you dare,
The steam arm knocked him right out of the chair.
Right toora loora………………..               

They shut him up in Tom Gee’s barn,
Thinking there he’d do no harm,
And all at once they had an alarm,
Down came the wall and out popped his arm.
Right toora loora…………………..        

Now he wanders about all in a fright,
He can’t get rest neither day nor night,
The arm keep going with all its might,
A-cutting away from left to right.
Right toora loora………………..        

“That’s Harry Sexton’s Steam Arm”.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 PM

Thanks, Jim. I shall submit that correction to Wiki


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:52 PM

As far as 'Powder' showing Walter not to be a traditional singer, I suggest you read Mike's 'The Other Songs' on the Musical Traditions site
It's hard to stop this sort of nonsense one the culprit gets his teeth into it
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM

"Rod Stradling and myself were distorting the truth about Walter, when this was not the case. "
It most certainly was not Mike it was, as I said, a misunderstanding
Our somewhat inadequate friend is attempting to settle old scores and no doubt, will try again in the future - sorry you got in his sights
THt fact that he chooses to do so from the safety of anonymity tends to underline what he is
"This has nothing whatsoever to do with Walter."
It is somewhat distressing that he is making Walter one of his targets here
We can't do too much about that but Walter can rest in the knowledge that that he's in good company - he has already targeted the Travellers as "Thieves, poachers and scavengers" so Jeannie, Belle, Alec and Sheila can all have a bit of a giggle over their ambrosia tonight

"these CDs were for sale"
Companies like Topic and Musical Traditions work on the basis of using the prifits from the better known artists (Carthy et al) to finance the source singers albums which invariably sell at a loss
Walter's fellow East Anglian, 'Sam Lerner's album recently sold only three copies - Stradling almost certainly sent out three time as many review copies to get it publicised
You world do better to try to get your facts straight rather than spending your time trawling teh net looking for iffy facts to to sear your felow posters with

"Roger Dixon"
As it seems so world-shattering - Roger was the nephew of Walter's cousin, Hubert, who lived several doors away down the lane
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,ike Yates
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:31 PM

'There have been discussions also, for example, about whether 'Put a Bit of Powder on it' should have been released. I think it was argued that it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. All this seems to be relatively factual.'

This is utter rubbish. I have yet to meet a 'traditional singer' who did not/does not have all types of songs in his/her repertoire. Pseudonymous, have a listen to any other Musical Traditions singers' CDs and you will hear that singers can have very wide repertoires indeed. I would assume that anyone on Mudcat would already know this.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:23 PM

I am sorry that Pseudonymous has decided to dredge up the facts surrounding the Topic and Musical Tradition CDs - which have nothing to do with Walter Pardon (wasn't he the subject of this thread?) To say that there was 'a total distortion of the truth' without placing this in context, might seem to some that Rod Stradling and myself were distorting the truth about Walter, when this was not the case. Again, I am left wondering just what Pseudonymous is up to. He/She seems to be throwing little 'bombs' into the discussion and then sitting back to see what happens.
The facts are that I wrote the Topic CD notes when asked to do so by Topic, and in a manner that they requested, and this was after Jim & Pat pulled out of the project. Similarly, I only offered to let Rod Stradling use some of my recordings of Walter after Jim & Pat had left that project. This did cause some friction between Jim & myself, but we have known each other for other 50 years and, I am glad to say, that we are still friends.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Walter.
While here, I might just mention something else that has been previously said here, namely the about film made by John Cohen. I took John to meet Walter and I was the sound engineer for the film.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:01 PM

You have obviously done some research, Sue, so can you answer the questions I posed before?

Was Walter's mother called Edith, as the Wiki article says, or Emily as the official records say? Or was she born one but known as the other? It happens!

The Wiki article lists Roger Dixon as Walter's nephew but I can find no listing of any siblings Walter had. Was Roger not a nephew or did Walter have siblings?

Both these need to be corrected if the Wiki article is wrong.

One final one, for now! The family that own the farm that Walter's cottage was tied to, were the Dixons. Was Roger related to them?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM

Re Enthusiasms: sorry if it was my incorrect reference. It is no 23, and here is a link: https://www.mustrad.org.uk/enth23.htm

Among the subjects discussed are what sort of notes should accompany CDs, what selections of material should/should not be released, at what stage was Pardon singing well (one participant says he was not very good at first and needed time to get good at it) (ie how to market ie advertise, promote, vend the work of Walter Pardon, these CDs were for sale). It seems to me to be beyond doubt that Pardon was marketed, even if nobody made much money from it, and some people made nothing.

We also encounter within this 'enthusiasms' pages, examples of bald assertions of what purport to be fact about Pardon which are not really substantiated by evidence and which seem to me to conflict with what Pardon actually says in the very early interviews accessible to the public via the BL web site.



Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 12:25 PM

It would appear that Walter Pardon was one of the first children to attend Knapton's Methodist Sunday school. Methodism was fairly strong in Eastern England. Knapton had both church and chapel. This book about Knapton is quite interesting. It gives us quite a good sense of the context, I think. I can relate to this because I have ancestors myself who were Methodists (though of a rather coal mining than industrial sort on the whole). It is by Gillian Shepherd, published in 2011 published by 'Biteback Publishing' and there is a companion volume called 'Knapton Remembered' which it would also be interesting to read.

Also, in case anybody has not seen it, there is a snippet from 2014 on Pardon in here, starting about 48 minutes in, though I am thinking that most of us will have heard this line of argument before:

http://pipers.ie/source/media/?mediaId=25853

And extracts from the interview on which this is based, which I think is referenced in the original quotation, has been typed out on a mudcat thread also dated 2014 and called 'Traditional Singers Talking'.

People can make what they will of the research methodology involved. It might be interesting and on-topic to discuss it.

It is a matter of fact that Pardon was marketed for sale, and that there were lively discussion about how to do this, what should be in the package! There have been discussions also, for example, about whether 'Put a Bit of Powder on it' should have been released. I think it was argued that it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. All this seems to be relatively factual.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:15 AM

" suppose we could actually try thinking the best of each other for a change."
Amen to that
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:12 AM

I suppose we could actually try thinking the best of each other for a change. Would make for easier reading. I'm off again singing until tomorrow, and living in hope as I go down the road.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM

'Fraid there's nothing strange about all this - any more than there is about your reasons for raising it
We approached Topic in view to making a possible double CD of Walter
As we didn't wish to make just another collection of songs we put together a combination of songs, anecdotes, parodies, opinions, etc and sent it to Topic
Tony Engle held onto it for a time and eventually sent us a letter, which we still have. saying he didn't feel that's what Topic wished to do - he also said he thought Walter, who was then getting on, wasn't at his best on some of the tracks
Tony also commented on the fact that many of the recordings had the sound of clocks in the background (Walter had a large collection of them - including a loud Russian tin clock purchased from The Daily Mirror)
We accepted Tony's decision and backed out, laving the field clear for Mike to do his excellent 'Horses'
Somewhere along the way someone got the wrong end of the story, but as we have the original correspondence on file, including Tony's letter, there is no question about what happened

We have made several albums from our own recordings, Tom Lenihan, Around the Hills of Clare, From Puck to Appleby, Early in the Month of Spring..
It has always been or practice to include the spoken word on them so the people aren't presented as just 'performers' - Topic didn't wish to do this - their loss, as far as I'm concerned

As few clarifications - no idea where the 'two years ago' came from - We have now lived in Ireland for over twenty years

"marketed for sale"
We have never been paid for producing CDs - only one of our singers was paid - a pittance
These were labours of love on all our parts
For our two anthologies we recieved half-a-dozen free copies which were to be shared out among the performers - go count them

Sorry to spoil your potential juicy bit of scandal
Why do you do this (rhetorical question, of course)
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:02 AM

Ok, I see it now : Enthusiasms 23 is the one.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM

Pseud wrote :

'A search of the MUSTRAD site threw up a link to the following page, headed "Enthusiasms, No 3". Yates and or Stradling are, if I read this aright, said to have written 'a total distortion of the truth' with some readers unable to grasp why any of the background history should have been committed to print in the first place. '

FWIW, Enthusiasms 3 deals with John Moulden, not of the stuff cited.

A link would be useful, perhaps?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM

"If you regard fol song as a thing of the past - why involve yourself in it
You must hate Shakespeare
"

Jim - what's the point and need for comments like that...???
I'm used to you, but others could see that as unecesarily antagonistic and dismissive..

My approach is to call you out on being so presumptious and wrong about me and others here...

1 - I obviously see folk as past present and future,
to accuse me of anything otherwise is sheer bollocks.
Just another example of you misreading my intentions,
and justifing your misunderstandings
by making up false ideas to put in other people mouths...

"Oh, if you say this, you must mean that.."

sorry to disapoint you, but I endeavour to say exactly what I mean at all times...

You persistently convince yourself other folks, even mudcat mates who agree with you ,
say and mean things they never did...

This is so exasperating...!!!

You can't even agree with people who agreee with you...!!!???

All you are doing is having imaginary arguements with yourself,
while we wait patiently as we can for you to regain the plot...

2 - wtf has Shakespeare got to do with this..
that's just another one of your tangential obsessions..

Anyway, back to Walter..

Did he ever perform or record with backing musicians and singers, or was he strictly solo...????
All I've heard online so far is unaccompanied...


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM

Dick wrote: -
vic smith said
The Copper Family never, to my knowledge added to or augmented or changed their songs through their extensive contact with the folk clubs, though I know that the way that they sung them was discussed
i disagree and would draw your attention to the old dun cow caught fire,as sung by harry champion


Well, Dick, it is true that this song is associated with Harry Champion but the fact is that The Copper Family were singing that song before folk clubs came along as well as songs by The Mills Brothers, Louis Armstrong and others.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:29 AM

Regarding the issuing of recordings of Pardon, MUSTRAD has a story about this, though I am not sure I have the events correct and clear.

I'll start with a quotation from Mike Yates' MUSTRAD contribution, from the introduction to the "Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father" CD issue:


In 1999, Topic Records asked me to write the notes to their forthcoming Walter Pardon CD - A World Without Horses (TSCD514). I had not been involved in the production of the album, nor had I chosen the songs that were to be included. The original producers, Jim Carroll and Pat MacKenzie, had originally hoped that Topic would issue a double CD using many of their recordings of Walter. It seems that Topic felt that these later recordings failed to show Walter at his best and so Jim and Pat withdrew from the project, leaving Topic with a single CD that was without notes or documentation.

Ron Stradling continues the story:

"The recent history of this pair of CDs - the start of which can be seen above - is strangely convoluted. Almost two years ago, after parting with Topic, Jim and Pat asked me if I would be interested in releasing the 'second' CD - and I readily agreed. We exchanged a letter or two, but they then got involved in a protracted move to Ireland which seemed to take up most of the summer. I phoned them several times afterwards, but it seemed clear that they had lost motivation for the project.

Some months later, while talking on another subject with Mike Yates, the second CD got mentioned and he suggested that he could do one quite easily. Again, I readily agreed. The next thing I heard was that Topic had reinstated the second CD - consisting mainly of Mike Yates recordings!"

Keen readers of Mudcat threads, might, at the mention of one or two names in the above posts, wonder whether any heated controversial discussion ensued. And so did I. A search of the MUSTRAD site threw up a link to the following page, headed "Enthusiasms, No 3". Yates and or Stradling are, if I read this aright, said to have written 'a total distortion of the truth' with some readers unable to grasp why any of the background history should have been committed to print in the first place.


I don't really want to comment on that particular controversy. But I will suggest that through reading we get some sense of the context within which Pardon's singing was recorded and marketed for sale. And on that basis it is relevant to the stated topic of this thread (if not to the thread and how it has developed on a broader level as a conversation).

Enjoy!

I have been reading a book about Knapton. Maybe more to follow.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM

Just a quick answer to your reference to my Traveller recordings.
I'm a bit like the Peter Kennedy incident you described at the moment.
Very briefly (because it's not on thread really) I was over on Marton Moss in Blackpool, putting a canvas on a living wagon for a Gypsy family (the Lee's) Mary Lee fetched me a brew and asked how much they owed me. I said nothing if you sing me one of your songs (no chance-she only sings when she thinks nobody is listening!) She disappeared and came back with two CD's and gave them to me. I was expecting the latest from the 'Wolf Tones' In fact what I got was the Lee, Wilson, Gorman family recorded in 1970. The CD's were made badly from an ancient reel to reel tape recorder, recorded by 'a Beatnick' according to the family. I think he had his eye on one of the young Gypsy Lasses at the time. All I know is his name was Ian. One of the younger Lee's transferred the tapes, missing the end of songs and coming in late on others.Then threw the originals away !!!!! The CD's were chucked in a drawer and ended up getting scratched. I rescued the recordings, and did my best with them.
The family do not want them published, but have given me permission to sing the songs and trust me to pass them on to those who will not do a Peter Kennedy as you described Jim. So far in Ireland Len Graham, and Lankum have the recordings. If you contact Len Graham he will let you have copies this post is my permission. However don't be too disappointed. There are no great singers and mainly fragments of songs, but some great versions and unusual tunes. My recordings of Peter Ingram are on the BL sound archive and 'The Voice of the people'.
kind regards
Nick


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:25 AM

Walter sang more or less in the manner people probably always sang folk songs - he certainly learned from his uncles who were product of the 19th century
I'm not talking about listening to old recordings

Walter didn't do 'in-beween banter as far as I know - he took his singing seriously and sang - Bert Lloyd commented on this when Walter was taken to America foir the Bi-Centennial celebrations
He seldom even drank while performing
There are examples of him on film
If you regard fol song as a thing of the past - why involve yourself in it
You must hate Shakespeare
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM

Jim, Jag was quoting me from very early on in the thread, when I was trying to understand the terms of the original post, and in particular what I interpreted as suggesting that WP's exposure to modern culture somehow somehow meant he could not be properly regarded as an example of traditional singing style

Here's what I said in context

Firstly you seem to have a misguided idea of what a traditional singer should be. The idea that a folk singer should be an illiterate peasant untouched by outside influences was inaccurate even in Cecil Sharp's time. Pardon was a man of the 20th century, more or less contemporary with my own father, and of course he had some education and was literate. Of course he was exposed to the gramophone, the radio and the television, and it would be naive to expect that his singing style might be completely untouched by these influences. However it would also have been influenced by the singers in his family and his village. His style was his own, as to some extent is any singer's, and from one point of view is representative only of him. Most other traditional singers had their own individual styles. Nevertheless it is an example of a mid-20th century singer who has been part of a singing tradition passed on over at least three generations, but not one which existed in a state of isolation.

It became clear from later posts that by "traditional singer" the OP meant from before the early 20th century. My point was that WP's style should be seen as that of a 20th century singer, part of a tradition which continued throughout that century and into this, albeit much reduced. Whether or not that was influenced by external factors (on which I make no comment) shouldn't devalue it in any way - tradition moves on and reflects the society it is part of.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:15 AM

btw.. I've not had time to look yet,
but do any of the documentaries mentioned in this thread
actually containg footage of Walter singing live to an audience,
with maybe some of his in between songs banter...???


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:12 AM

"but we're not talking about a passive - "eyes on screens" involvement in the music"

But how else are we expected to enjoy "peformances from the past"
if not from recordings and moving pictures..???

Roll up roll up.. Folk TARDIS time trips to the past
book a session now, and you'll be back home tonight even before you left.....!!!???


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:06 AM

(The evidence is plastered all over the internet..."
Not in my experience - but we're not talking about a passive - "eyes on screens" involvement in the music - we always had records we could buy and and sit at home and listen to
We are discussing a situation were we could sing to our peers and fellow enthusiasts
One of the arguments about the club scene has always been that it is an artificial way of enjoying folk song - I cannot think of anything more artifical that staring at a screen or a tiny image on an iphone tpo get your fulfilment
The facts of tha matter are that it is not the general public who have chnaged in their tastes but it is the crowd who have taken over the folk scene who hacve decided they want to do something else
Folk remains potentially as relevant as it always was

This argument doesn't belong here so let's takwe our thread drift elsewhere
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:59 AM

'Without encroaching on the other thread ….. what has replaced Walter and his like on the folk scene is far less successful than..'

With respect, as I understand English vocabulary, this comment is, or, let's use hedges with politeness in mind, this comment may be 'encroaching' on this thread, not the other one. For it is that thread and not this one which has as its topic the current state of folk music in the UK.

I have just listened again to Pardon' Maid of Australia on Spotify. I found it as embarrassingly horrid as I did the first time I listened to it. It appears to me (and I know this is just my personal response)( to be a mixture of what is almost something approaching a male rape fantasy and colonial exoticism. Its date, who knows? Its language: some of it presumably deliberately anachronistic at the time of composition eg damsel.

Story: narrator, foreign to Australia, presumably a colonialist of some sort, snoops on a native Australian female bathing in the nude. He skin, he notes, is black. She trips on coming out of the water, he then saves her and (in what is presumably a 'baudy' pun) announces that he entered 'the bush of Australia'. Any explicit 'come on' on from this woman, whom even the persona of the song appears to be aware is just dressing and behaving according to the mores of her own culture, may be in the mind of the persona. But, like many a woman in such fantasies, she joins him in 'sporting' in the 'highest of glee'. He then left her.

I struggle to see why the compilers of this anthology chose to represent English folk song with this. I'm not convinced that he sings it even at the right pitch since it sounds like he is struggling to hit the lower notes. I do not believe for one moment that putting this sort of song on stage in the 21st century would solve the problems of the UK folk scene. It seems to me more likely that it illustrates some of the things that were wrong with the 2nd Revival.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM

"I would be interested to be proved wrong - I would also be interested to know why 21st century urban Britain is so different than 21st century Northern Ireland in not being able to accept songs and peformances from the past"

Jim - but you are bound to be proved wrong,
because you are making too massive an over generalisation..
Music lovers do "accept songs and peformances from the past"
The evidence is plastered all over the internet...

I wish I'd had all that is available now when I was a kid,
when our music awareness was limited by meagre provision on TV and radio...

.. and the small town record shop with hardly any back catalogue stock...

We hardly knew of anything that existed outside the weekly pop charts back then...


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:26 AM

"Pardon was a man of the 20th century"
Not sure what that means Jag - Walter's songs dated back to the 19thc 18thc, - even early and they entertained many of us throughout the latter half of the 20th century ]
Are you saying that 21st century singing enthusiasts are no longer capable of enjoying them ?
Does culture from the past really come with a sell-by date
I sat among a room-full of people of all ages a couple of weeks ago in Belfast and we listened to everything from ancient ballads to recently composed songs made using old techniques - no accompaniment - no amplification - just people listening to songs well sung

Without encroaching on the other thread, I think the pitiful number of clubs and the much reduced audiences on the club scene has proved pretty conclusively that what has replaced Walter and his like on the folk scene is far less successful than what brought us together
I would be interested to be proved wrong - I would also be interested to know why 21st century urban Britain is so different than 21st century Northern Ireland in not being able to accept songs and peformances from the past
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:00 AM

Regarding Pardon's repertoire:

There is a list of songs sung by Pardon on the MUSTRAD pages. These pages were refenced in the original post on this thread.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm#rep

A quick check suggested that the following, from the BL site, which some sources say he knew, were not on the MUSTRAd pages. But it was a quick check and may be incorrect.

Molly my Irish Molly
Broomfield Hill (may be Broomfield wager which is on)
Give my love to Nancy
More Trouble in My Native Land

Re Discography: Mustrad also features a discography, which I hope they will not mind me citing here, with full acknowledgements of the work of Mike Yates/Ron Stradling in putting the information on Pardon together:

Walter Pardon Discography:

EFDSS CD002
Bright Golden Store
Folkways FE38553
The Deserter
Lord Lovel
The Maid of Australia
Harmonium HM719
The Trees they do Grow Hogh
Home-Made Music LP301
Blow the Winds I-O
Bright Golden Store
Caroline and her Young Sailor Bold
Come Little Leaves
Hold the Fort
Naughty Jemima Brown
Old Joe the Boat is Going Over (melodeon)
The Parson and the Clerk
The Poor Smuggler's Boy
Rakish Young Fellow
Rosin-a-Beau
Thornaby Woods
Two Jolly Butchers
Uncle Walter's March (melodeon)
Leader LED2063
A Ship to Old England Came
A British Man-of-War
The Dark-Eyed Sailor
Jack Tar Ashore
Let the Wind Blow High or Low
The Miller and His Sons
Old Brown' s Daughter
The Poacher's Fate
The Rambling Blade
The Trees They Do Grow High
Van Diemen's Land
Leader LED2111
Balaclava
Down By the Dark Arches
Grace Darling
I'll Beat the Drum Again (The Female Drummer)
I'll Hang my Harp on a Willow Tree
Jones's Ale
The Old Miser
The Pretty Ploughboy
Up to the Rigs (of London Town)
The Wreck of the Ramillies
You Generals All (Lord Marlborough)
Musical Traditions MT CD 305
All Among the Barley
Black-eyed Susan
Blow the Winds I-O
The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O
Caroline and Her Young Sailor Bold
A Country Life
Cupid the Pretty Ploughboy
The Green Bushes
Hold the Fort
If I Were a Blackbird
I'm Yorkshire Though in London
Little Ball of Yarn
Lord Lovel
An Old Man's Advice
The Parson and the Clerk
Polly Vaughan
The Poor Smuggler's Boy
The Saucy Sailor
Seventeen Come Sunday
The Skipper and his Boy
Thornaby Woods
Musical Traditions MT CD 306
Alice Grey
Ben Bolt
Bound to Emigrate to New Zealand
Cock-a-Doodle-Do
The Cuckoo
The Dandy Man
Down by the Old Abbey Ruins
For Me, For Me
The Harland Road
Here's to the Grog
The Huntsman
Husband Taming
If I Ever Get Drunk Again
The Marble Arch
The Mistletoe Bough
Nancy Lee
Naughty Jemima Brown
Not for Joseph, Not for Joe
The Old Armchair
Old Joe the Boat is Going Over
On a See-Saw
Put a bit of Powder on it, Father
Rosin-a-Beau
Saving Them All for Mary
Slave Driving Farmers
Two Lovely Black Eyes
Uncle Walter's March
Uncle Walter's Tune
Up the Chimney Pot
Wake Up Johnny
When the Cock begins to Crow
Wheel Your P'rambulator
While Shepherds Watched
Your Faithful Sailor Boy
People's Stage Tapes 11
At Rambling Green
Balaclava
Down by the Dark Arches
I'll Hang my Harp on a Willow Tree
The Maid of Australia
Old Brown's Daughter
The Parson and the Clerk
The Pretty Ploughboy
The Rakish Young Fellow
The Reason Why (One Cold Morning in December)
The Rich Irish Girl (Let the Winds Blow High or Low)
Up to the Rigs of London Town
Van Diemen's Land
Root and Branch CD1
Won't You Come to Me in Canada
Topic 12TS392
A Country Life
An Old Man's Advice
The Bold Princess Royal
The Broomfield Wager
Cupid the Ploughboy
The Dandy Man
The Devil and the Farmer's Wife
The Hungry Army
I Wish, I Wish
Jack Hall
One Cold Morning in December
Peggy Bawn
Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Uncle Walter's Tune
Topic TSCD514
The Banks of Sweet Dundee
The Bold Fisherman
The Bold Princess Royal
A British Man of War*
The Cunning Cobbler
The Dark-Eyed Sailor*
The Deserter
The Devil and the Farmer's Wife
The Female Drummer*
The Handsome Cabin Boy
The Jolly Wagoner
The Lawyer (Mowing the Barley)
The Loss of the Ramilies*
Maids of Australia
The Pretty Ploughboy*
The Rakish Young Fellow
The Rambling Blade*
The Trees They do Grow High*
Two Jolly Butchers
Topic TSCD600
The Broomfield Wager
Topic TSCD651
Peggy Bawn
Topic TSCD652
A Ship to Old England Came*
Jack Tar Ashore*
Topic TSCD654
Van Diemen's Land*
Topic TSCD656 Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Topic TSCD660 Let the Wind Blow High or Low*
Topic TSCD664 The Hungry Army
Topic TSCD665 I Wish, I Wish One Cold Morning in December
Topic TSCD667 Jack Hall
Topic TSCD668 The Poacher's Fate*
Veteran Tapes VT108 Spanish Ladies Sons of Labour
Veteran Tapes VT109 Black-Eyed Susan The Topman and the Afterguard
Veteran Tapes VTC1CD Sons of Labour
Notes: Songs marked with an
asterisk on Topic CDs are alternate takes to the same songs issued on Leader albums.
VT108/9 are cassettes.
MT CDs 305 and 306 are issued together as a double set.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:19 AM

Thanks Steve.

I tracked down the Blaxhall Ship film (http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5) after finding the Lomax recordings and some recent Ship Inn sessions on Youtube. It's relevant to what the information about Walter, alongside the "current state of folk music' discussion had me thinking. As Howard Jones said earlier "Pardon was a man of the 20th century". The participants of the revival new a lot of people of his generation.

If we focus on people's behaviour and repertoire as a whole, not just your "what we would call 'folk song'" how much of the revival is really a progression? Circumstances change (and it looks like they heat the pubs better now) but people don't much - otherwise we wouldn't understand the characters in the old songs or the books that Walter read. People got together at the Mitre Tavern in 1880, at the Ship Inn in the 1950s and at pubs in 2019 to sing a mix of old and new songs. But isn't it a progression rather than a re-enactment?

Walter looked back to his Uncle Billy and grandfathers day, those who heard him look back to Walter and other source singers. In the 'current state of folk music' thread Vic Smith quotes Jim Causley saying "Our generation hasn't got them, we have got you lot."


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM

Walter's repertoire
Jim

All Along The Barley
A11 For TheGrog (inc.)
All Jolly Fellows (frag.)
All The Little Chickens In The garden
As I Wandered By The Brookside
Bacton Abbey Rhyme (French Invasion)
Balaclava
Banks of Sweet Dundee
Banks of The Clyde
Bells Are Ringing For Sarah.
Best Old Wife In The World (frag.)
Birds Eggs Rhyme Black Eyed Susan
Black Velvet Band (chorus only.)
Blow The Winds I O (see Ten Thousand Miles)
Bold Fisherman
Bold Princess Royal
Bonny Bunch Of Roses
Bright Golden Store
British Man Of War
Broomfield Hill
Bumble Bee Rhyme
Burningham Boys (frag.)
Butter And Cheese And All (see Greasy Old Cook)
Bush Of Australia (see Maid of Australia)
Calendar Rhymes
Caroline And her Young Sailor Bold
Carrion Crow
Charge of The Light Brigade (see Balaclava)
Cliff Hornpipe (melodeon)
Coltishall School Treat (frag)
Come And See The Kaiser (Harland Road)
Come To Me In Canada
Cook And The Masher (see Greasy Old Cook)
Country Life
Cuckoo (frag)
Cunning Cobbler
Cupid The Ploughboy
Cock-a-Doodle-Doo
Dandy Man
Dark Eyed sailor
Darling Dinah Kitty Anna Maria (frag)
Derby Ram (frag)
Deserter
Devil And The Farmer's Wife
Dolly Varden Hat (frag)
Down By The Abbey Ruins        (frag)
Dow By The Dark Arches
Duke Of Marlborough        (see Generals All)
Early In The Morning        (melodeon)
Fai'hful Sailor Boy Farmer's Boy
Farmer's Boy Parody (see I'll Have No Union)
Famyard Song (frag)
Female Cabin Boy
Female Drummer        
Footprints In The Snow
French Invasion Rhyme (see Bacton Abbey Rhyme)
Game Of Dominoes (frag)
Generals All
Geniveve
Goodbye King (election parody)
Gooseberry Tree
Gorgonzola Cheese (frag)
Grace Darling
Grandfather1s Clock
Grand March (melodeon)
Greasy Old Cook
Green Bushes
Green Grows The Laurels (frag)
Handsome Cabin Boy (see Female Cabin Boy)
Hanging On The Old barbed Wire
Hang Tom Dolphin (Bell rhyme)
Harland Road (see Come And See the Kaiser)
Hard To Say Goodbye To Your Own Native Land
Has Anybody Seen Our cat (frag)
Haste To The Wedding (melodeon)
Help One Another Boys
Here'sTo The Grog (see All For The Grog)
Here's To Those        (toast)
Here We Sit (rhyme)
Hockey Tar Tarry Tee (frag)
Hold The Fort
Home Boys Home (frag)
Hungry Army
Huntsman
Husband Taming
I Don't Care If There's A Girl There
If I Were A Blackbird
If I Were A Policeman
If Those Lips Could Only Speak (parody)
I'll Be All smiles Tonight (frag)
I'll Beat The Drum Again (see Female Drummer)
I'll come        Back To You Sweetheart
I'll Hang        My Harp On A Willow Tree
I'll Have No Union (see Farmer's Boy Parody)
I'm Yorkshire, Though In London
In Our Backyard Last Night
The Irish Girl (see Let The Wind Blow High Or Low)
Insect Rhymes
Irish Molly
I Traced Her Footprints (see Footprintsin The Snow)
It's All For The Money (frag)
It's Hard To Say Goodbye To Your Own Native Land
I Wish, I Wish
I Wore A tunic
Jackie Boy (frag)
Jack Hall
Jack Tar On Shore
John Barleycorn (frag)
John Reilly (frag)
Jolly Butchers (see two Joily Butchers)
Jolly waggoner Jones' Ale
Jump Out Of Bed (When The Cocks Begin To Crow)
Kitty, Come, Come (frag)
Kitty Wells
Lads in Navy Blue
Lads of High Renown (see Poachers fate)
Lawyer (see Mowing the Barley)
Little Ball of Yarn
Local rhyme about farmer
      " ladybirds
      " snails
Lord Lovell
Loss of The Rami lies
Maid of The Mill (frag)
Maids of Australia
Marble Arch
Men of Merry England (frag)
God Bless Him (toast)
Miller’s Three Sons
Miner's Dream of Home (frag)
Miner's Return
Mistletoe Bough
More Trouble In My native Land
Mother Shipton's rhyme
Mowing The Barley (see The Lawyer)
My Little Blue Apron Is Full (frag)
My Old master Told Me        (frag)
Nancy Fancied a Soldier (frag)
Naughty Jemmima Brown
Not For Joe (frag)
Oak And The Ash (frag)
Oh Joe, Do Let Me Go (frag)
Old Brown's daughter
Old Joe, The Boat Is Going Over (melod)
Old Man's Advice
Old Mother Pittle Pots (f rag)
Old Woman of Yorkshire
One Cold Morning In December
On The See-Saw (melod)
Parson Brown (frag)        
Parson And The Clerk        
Pegc Band (old version)        
Peggy Band (John Clare version )        
Polly Vaughan (frag)        
Poacher's Fate        (Lads of High Renown)        ,
Poor Little Joe        (frag)        
Poor Roger Is Dead        
Poor Smuggler's Boy        
Pretty Ploughboy
Raggle Taggle Gypsies        
Rakish Young Fellow        
Rambling Blade        
Ramilies (see Loss of The Ramilies)
Rigs of London (see Up to The Rigs)
Ring The Bell watchman        
Rise Sally Walker
Rosin-A-Beau        
Sailor Cut Down        
Saucy Sailor Boy        
Seventeen Come Sunday        
Shamrock, Rose and Thistle (frag)        
Ship To Old England Came        
Ship That never returned        
Ship sailed Away From Old England (frag)        
Silver Threads Among The gold        
Skipper And His Boy        
Slave Driving Farmers        
Soldier (Butcher) Boy        
Somebody Had To fetch The Flag        
Sons Of Labour        
Spanish Cavalier (frag)        
Spanish Ladies        
Stars and Stripes and John Bull Forever (frag)
Steam Arm        
Stick To Your Mother Son
Strawberry Fair        
Susan, The Pride Of Kildare        
Suvlah Bay        
Sweet Belle Mahone (frag)        
Ten Thousand Miles (Blow The Winds 1O)        ,
That’s How You Get Served When Your Old (frag)
They-ll Do It (frag)        
They Don’ t Grow On Tops of Trees
Thirty Nine/Forty Five Star        
Thornaby Woods        
Topman And The Afterguard        
Trampwoman's Tragedy        
Transports (see Van Dieman's Land)
Trees They Do Grow High        
Turning The Mangle (frag)        
Two Butchers (see Jolly butchers)
Two _ovely Black Eyes        
Uncle Walter's march (melod)        
Uncle Walter's Tune (melod)        
Unnamed Tune (melod)
Up To The Rigs        
Van Deiman's Land
Wake Up Johnny        
Wanderer        
Wearing Of The Green (frag)        
We're All Sawing        
Weather Rhymes        
We've Both been Here Before        
Wheel Your Perambulator (frag)
When Father Joined The Territorials (frag)
When London's Asleep        
When The Cocks begin To Crow        
When The Fields Are White With Daisies        
When You wake Up In The Morning        
While Shepherds Watched        
Whistling Woman (rhyme)
Will You Come Back To Bombay        (frag)        
Wind Blows High        
Wing Wang Waddles        
Wish They'd Do It Now (frag)        
Woman Dog an Walnut Tree (rhyme)        
Woman's Work Is Never Done (frag)
Would You Like To Know How Bread Is Made (frag)
Wreck of The Lifeboat        
Wreck of The Ramilies (see Loss of The Ramilies)
Write Me A Letter From Home
Yarmouth Hornpipe (melod)
Your- Bother John (rhyme about local farmer)


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:38 AM

Just thought, to get this going again perhaps a discography of Walter might help (it may be out-of-date)
These are all worth searching out - I can help if anybody is looking for something specific

Walter Pardon Discography
A Proper Sort; Leader LED 2063 Yorkshire 1975   
Our Side Of The Baulk Leader LED 2111 Yorkshire 1977
An English Folk Music Anthology Folkways FE 83553 New York 1981
A Country Life Topic 12TS392 London 1982
Bright Golden Store Home Made Music HMM LP 301 London 1984
Up To The Rigs Peoples Stage Tape 11 Totnes, Devon 1987
The Horkey Load [Nos. 1 and 2] Veteran Tapes VT108 & VT 109 Suffolk 1988
Hidden English Topic TSCD600 London 1996
Voice Of The People [Nos. 1, 2, 4, 6, 10, 14, 15, 17, 18] Topic TSCD651 to 670 London 1998
A Century Of Song E.F.D.S.S. EFDSSCD02 London 1998
A World Without Horses Topic TSCD514 London 2000
Put A Bit Of Powder On It Father Musical Traditions MTCD 305-6 Glos 2000

"I have not lost interest Jim."
Delighted to hear it Nick - I'd like to hear some of your findings on English Travellers sometime
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

Yes I've read that somewhere. A singer or member of the audience taking your hand. Almost like a connection to the rest of humanity from the world of the song. Until now I thought this happened with Sean Nos singers only.
I am pretty busy today and out singing again tonight. If I don't answer immediately I promise I have not lost interest Jim.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:10 AM

"I understand that Walters house was sold after his death, does anyone know who sold it and who bought it."
Why - are you looking for somewhere to live Dick
I would guess it was ought up by someone locally - it certainly hasn't had much done to it from the look of it
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 AM

I understand that Walters house was sold after his death, does anyone know who sold it and who bought it.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM

"We don't want to fight - we just want to learn about him."
Neither do I Joe
I've spent half this thread trying to get past Walter's culinary idiosyncracies when it should have been discussing Walter as a singer
I didn't "misread" that - that's what people chose to do
I have masses of information on Walter if I am allowed to put it up in an atmosphere where it will be treated with sensitivity and intelligence
I'd give my right arm to be allowed to do so
I have no intention of discussing our diffenences - I've said wht I believe nees to be said on that
If people want to go on with Walter I'd be more than happy to
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 01:07 AM

Jim, we just want to know about Walter Pardon. That's all.

We don't want to fight - we just want to learn about him.

He is one of the most interesting people in folk music.

-Joe-


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