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Review: Walter Pardon; Research

Related thread:
Walter Pardon - which song first? (45)


GUEST,jag 12 Nov 19 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,jag 12 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 12 Nov 19 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,jag 12 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Nov 19 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 08:19 AM
GUEST 12 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 12 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 19 - 09:03 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 12 Nov 19 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 12 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 12 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,jag 12 Nov 19 - 10:10 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Nov 19 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 02:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Nov 19 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,CJ 13 Nov 19 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,jag 13 Nov 19 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,jag 13 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,jag 13 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 06:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 06:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 05:47 AM

Pseudonymous. Walter's own words about visualising the stories of songs and the books he read are in one of the audio interviews. His tone of voice, and the fact that he includes mention of books that he read, suggests to me that it was what he did, rather than something he was led into by an interviewer asking about performance. I am not going to go back and find it to type it out.

His own words.

I don't see how the Roly Brown review of the CD (it is in the 'reviews' not the 'articles' section of mustrad) contributes anything to a 'research' discussion. The only new information is some observations about other versions of a few of the songs but that could be got by following the information in the booklet. In fact, I think that by not adding anything it does its job a being a review better.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM

This appears to have moved on from undermining the validity of the singers reputations as 'tradition bearers' to attacking the work carried out by 'revival' collectors (Jim Carrol).

Jim, I thought it started out that way.

Until someone tells us how Walter knew that some songs went back to the 18th century so that he could then notice that the tunes were different repeating his view leaves a big gap in the logic - it is a circular argument.

But none of the knowlegable writers have disagreed with the general idea or what he says about the structure of the later songs. We don't know how he 'knew' that some songs were old, but we do know how he knew that many were more recent.

I don't think the possibility that a newer ballad with an old-sounding tune could slip past Walter (or the folklorists) devalues Walter's observations. But I am skeptical when Walter's view is used by someone else as evidence in another debate especially when his own caveat "nine time out of ten" is not included.

One of the English folksong book writers (not sure if it was Sharp or Lloyd) did a tally of the modes used in songs. The results show that although clasically trained musicians make a fuss about the unfamilar- to-them modes a lot of the old tunes are actually in a major key. The medieval churchy types didn't call it 'modus lascivous' for nothing.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM

Jag:

1 I had had a similar thought about the idea that older songs were 'modal' ie basically minor as opposed to major as indicated by them ending on a pull on a two row diatonic melodeon.

2 This appears to have moved on from undermining the validity of the singers reputations as 'tradition bearers' to attacking the work carried out by 'revival' collectors … I thought it started out that way.

I might quibble about the emotive force of some of the language used here, especially 'undermine' and 'attach', but basically you are correct.

The aid was to critically examine the way Pardon and his work were presented, and the difficulty (which I had found, as an alert reader) in distinguishing fact, myth, opinion and bias in the various accounts of him which I had found. Including in this is a 'critical' (ie less than slavish adherence) examination of the various and contested ideologies underpinning the work on and about him.

I am not apologetic about this: we can be assured that in the future people will take precisely this approach to the output of the 2nd revival: in fact time has moved on to the point where is it seen as 'history'.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:57 AM

Obviously he could tell from the content of some songs that they were old. It seems clear from some of the interviews that this is what he is doing. So we do know this.

Plus, the man had been surrounded by and had interacted with people from the Revival: one cannot credibly argue that any knowledge he had was 'inherited' as part of the tradition.

But once again, we risk over-generalisation on the basis of a few selected extracts from what may or may not have been a vast bank of raw data.

Which brings us onto methodological considerations (ie questions about the best ways to go about carrying out research into questions like 'what did Walter Pardon know about his songs, and where did he get that knowledge from'.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:58 AM

And if people choose to interpret this as a personal 'attack' or whatever, then that is really as far as I am concerned their decision. Whatever!


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

The point on a tendency to over-generalise about all singers within what is called in another piece of question begging rhetoric 'the tradition' (note use of definite article, not the indefinite) on the basis of inferences drawn from encounters with Walter Pardon was made on Muscat by The Sandman. The responses to his reasonable point were predictable in their tone and content.

I forgot to say thank you to a few people who had made contributions to the discussion.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:23 AM

"Jim, I thought it started out that way."
It did indeed, but I thought we'd moved on from that nastiness - in fact I know we did
Walter didn't know how far any of them went back - none of us do, but he certainly felt some of them did, which was a tribute to their authenticity, in my opinion
As I have said, he was a prodigious and catholic reader - his choice of books included historical writers like Charles Reide, Harrison Aisworth and some of the classics I have mentioned
His take on history may not be necessarily accurate but it was certainly vivid and he used it to inform his songs
Walter associated his songs - tunes and all - to their historical subject matter - he had more instinctive feel about his songs than any unread folkie I have met - those who choose to educate themselves are a different matter altogether - that's what make them better singers IMO

We once asked non-literate Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, what his oldest song one - he replied, without hesitation, 'The Blind Beggar', a song entered in the Stationers Register some time in the 17th century   
We never told him that, but he mght well have picked it up from the sign hanging outside the notorious pub of that name on Whitechapel Road, around the corner from the site he was camped on
We asked blind Traveller Mary Delaney the samwe question - back like a shot came the answer, 'Buried in Kilkenny' - (Lord Randal)   
The first Traveller we recorded, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors introduced his version of Edward (@What Put the Blood') like this:

“I’d say the song, myself, goes back to.... depicts Cain and Abel in the Bible and where Our Lord said to Cain.... I think this is where the Travellers Curse come from too, because Our Lord says to Cain, “Cain”, says Our Lord, “you have slain your brother, and for this”, says Our Lord, says he, “and for this, be a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth”.
“Not so Lord” says he, “this punishment is too severe, and whoever finds me”, says he, “will slay me, “says he “or harass me”.
“Not so”, says Our Lord, says he, “whoever finds Cain and punishes or slains (sic) Cain, I will punish them sevenfold”.
And I think this is where the Travellers curse come from.
Anyway, the song depicts this, this er....
1 call it Cain and Abel anyway; there never was a name for the song, but that what I call it, you know, the depiction of Cain and Abel.”


One of the most common descriptions we got from the singers we met was "that song is true"
It didn't mean they necessarily believed that the events actually happened - rather, they felt that they might wel have - they felt authentic

As far as Walter's tunes are concerned, I go along with Mike Yates's idea that it is directly related to his memorising them on a melodeon, they certainly were unique
I often think some 'scholars' often over-complicate something that is blindingly simple
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:29 AM

Pseudonymous. In view of the separate thread you have posted about Jim Carroll, I personally think it's time to ask for some credentials if you don't mind.
I have no right to speak for anybody but myself, however to put my mind at rest please could you answer the following.

Could you tell me where your interest in Folk Music began Are you a singer or dancer or regular member of an audience.

Secondly as you obviously have some academic interest and training, and you have received the time and knowledge of some of the leading Folklorists in the UK on this thread, and not to mention the lesser names such as myself, where can we find your contributions? May we read your articles in the Journal, or in any Magazine? Have you even contributed a CD review?

Thirdly have you undertaken any field work, or even made recordings in a Folk Club?

To be blunt Pseudo who the hell are you? Why do you find it necessary to use a handle with the word Pseud attached to it. What is your real name?
I believe these to be valid questions, and should be easy for you to answer in one or two lines.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:50 AM

1
Regarding Parr's Farm, Hall Lane, Knapton, the book on Knapton (dated 2011) states that at the time of writing Willie Puncher (b 1937) who was brought up there, farmed there. The family still do, you can google it.

It also states that Roger Dixon's uncles George and Hubert, Aunt Ruth and Lucy lived for a time at the farm. I cannot find a date for this, but it says that George farmed there.

If Pardon's farmhouse (and I am sure on the basis of what he says himself in one interview that it was originally a farmhouse as opposed to a 'farm labourer's house/cottage) was not Parr's Farm, then the question arises of why the people who made the film chose to insert footage of a sign giving that name. And on that, one person's analysis of the semiotics and/or the intentions of the film maker (who presumably had his own biases) is as good as another.

NB Simple definition of semiotics: Semiotics is the study of signs and symbols, in particular as they communicate things spoken and unspoken. Common signs that are understood globally include traffic signs, emojis, and corporate logos. Written and spoken language is full of semiotics in the form of intertextuality, puns, metaphors, and references to cultural commonalities.

2
The book includes some quotation from Roger Dixon (and draws heavily on first person accounts by people who lived in or were connected to Knapton in the 20th century). The Gees (ie Walter's mother's family, the one Dixon had links to), according to Roger Dixon, would tell 'all sorts of tales about music-making in the past'. Dixon does not make a judgment about how far such 'tales' were an accurate reflection of history. But, and this interests me, the example Dixon gives is not one about 'a tradition' or 'the tradition' is it might be defined by one of the sub-groups on Mudcat but one about the church. 'One [tale] was the family formed the church band in the reign of William IV in the 1830s, before the Robinson family provided the first harmonium in the church'. For an account of music in churches, I seem to recall that Vic Gammon has a piece on it.

The name 'Cook Gee' (as in some of Walter's ancestors, including his Uncle Billy, seems to have first arisen early in the 19th century when a Cook married a Gee, and to have spread quite widely thereafter. There may have been more than one marriage between a Cook and a Gee I suppose.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:02 AM

Regarding the relationship between Pardon's melodeon playing and the tunes he used for songs: I would be interested to see any data on this originating with Pardon himself. What I can find appears to be conjectural.

Nick Dow. What I have and have not done is irrelevant. And swearing at people does your cause nothing.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM

Nick Dow: I have made an effort to thank all those who have made constructive contributions to this thread. If I missed anybody I apologise.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM

"If Pardon's farmhouse (and I am sure on the basis of what he says himself in one interview that it was originally a farmhouse as opposed to a 'farm labourer's house/cottage) was not Parr's Farm, then the question arises of why the people who made the film chose to insert footage of a sign giving that name "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc&feature=youtu.be&t=70


It says "Parrs Farm Cottage".

The map shows it to be next to a farm. Lots of farms have cottages attached. They were for workers or extended family. It is still possible to get planning permission for an "Agricultural Dwelling" on land that could otherwise not be developed for housing.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:08 AM

Though I will say that one thing I hoped for when I opened a thread on Jim Carroll was that he might use it to post his anecdotes and opinions, as his arrival on this one caused sinking feelings and quickly affected the tone, adversely in my opinion. I regret to comment on this, as I had intended to avoid it, but I am with those who made comment to that effect.

I gave an account of myself above, and do not propose to repeat it here, if that is reasonable?

It is perfectly acceptable to post posts and start threads anonymously on Mudcat, though they prefer it is one uses a consistent name, which I am doing. Mudcat actually warn you against putting private information on line. It is common sense, especially given the venomous nature of some of the discussions on other threads.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:19 AM

Nice to have you back - hope the singing went well
"To be blunt Pseudo who the hell are you? "
You really are wasting your time - people like this can't operate in daylight - haven't ever read Bram Stoker ?
If he had done anything worthwhile he would be wearing it like a badge -
He's been asked this before and has demurred
I've never been sure of the anonymity policy of a forum like this - I only know of one other individual on who uses a mask to inflict ridicule and abuse on others - most posters who use a 'funny name' are quite happy to discuss their own involvement in the subjects - those that refuse top place a huge question mark over their motives as far as I'm concerned
For the sake of this threadm, I really think we ned to open the curtains and let the daylight in
Let's move on please - all of you
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

'Mudcat actually warn you against putting private information on line. '

But you feel it alright to put someone else's information online despite the person in question's objections against the thread in question?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM

Yes Jim I'll move on.
Psuedo's answer if you can all it that, has shown me what we're dealing with.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:03 AM

"NB Simple definition of semiotics: "

thank you for that... how considerate...

I wasted too many years of my life on that academicese bollocks back in the 1980s...

It is part useful analytical tool,
but from my painful experience up to post grad level,
a tool misused by elitist ego tripping middle class social inadequates...

I have now had my day spoiled waking up to the memory of my worst lecturers,
and their favourite reading list text books which we were forced to waste huge chunks of our grant on...

One in particular, was a spiteful sociopathic piece of work,
who enjoyed her power over the fate of young impresssionable and vulnerable students...

..and she had the gall to self identify as a marxist progressive...

She was a nastier more vindictive human being than any of the tory inclined academic staff...

So thanks for the reminder...

Pseud, I don't trust you are what you want us to think you are...?????

.. and if you are.. I'm not impressed by your over convoluted, poorly communicated writing...

So things aint changed too much then in the academic world since the 1980s...


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:13 AM

" I opened a thread on Jim Carroll was that he might use it to post his anecdotes and opinions, "
No you didn't - your past hostility from the first time we encountered each other has made it clear that out opinions of each other coincide - your addressing me as "Carroll" confirms that - fine by me, I would feel uncomfortable otherwise
It is unfortunate that you have managed to involve at least one other that I feel I need to respect, even thought we haven't always seen eye-to-eye on some things
So far, your opening that thread has only managed to backfire in your face - you have done what needed to be done in showing why you are here
Thanks for that, at least
Now let's all move on please
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:33 AM

Jim, following something that you said above, I had a look at the thread about you that was opened by Pseudonymous. I see that this has now been closed. Frankly, I feel that it should be removed. As I have said before, I have become very doubtful about Pseudonymous and his/her intentions on this thread. Accordingly, I will not be adding anything further to the thread. Nor will I be adding to any other threads that this person may start.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM

"This thesis considers how these practices We're mediated by revivalist beliefs and values, how recording was presented in revivalist discourse, and how its semiotic resources were incorporated into multimodal discourses about music, technology and traditional culture.""

I find this kind of jargon really off-putting. I'd far prefer to read the kind of commentary, expressed in articulate but straightforward language, by real experts in this field like Jim Carroll, Mike Yates and Nick Dow.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM

Thanks for your input Mike
I'm truely sorry you were dragged into this
I hpoe you will continue to put in an appearance - I'm about to open a thread on Travellers and I would dearly like your experience to be part of that
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM

"Regarding the relationship between Pardon's melodeon playing and the tunes he used for songs: I would be interested to see any data on this originating with Pardon himself. What I can find appears to be conjectural."

It was a direct quote from Walter himself. What's conjectural about that? You do understand that he used to play the tunes of his songs on the melodeon, right?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM

Maybe a real Walter Pardon friend/enthusiast could sift the wheat from the chaff in this thread,
and open and transfer it to a new properly and expertly curated Walter thread...???

Where both genuine critical analysis and newbie questions are tolerated
as part of valid positive discussion.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 10:10 AM

I just scanned through the conclusions of Matthew Ord's thesis. It's in more normal English than the abstract. It doesn't seem to be about the sort of field recording that was done at Walter's house. It may be a little relevant to organisational process of getting them onto CD or not.

For me Walter's clocks, and that they were still in the room, give an air of authenticity!


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 10:26 AM

Regarding Walter being referred to as 'Uncle'. This could be a red herring, but my good friends the Waterson family always referred to him as 'Uncle Walter' particularly when they were singing his songs. Perhaps all of these people who knew him well were simply using it as a term of endearment.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 02:45 PM

"Walter's clocks, and that they were still in the room, give an air of authenticity!"
I'm afraid you never heard a Russian tin clock Jag - pretty bad
We usually managed to get it taken out of the room but many of our sessions took place in the course of conceration, when Walter said something we wanted to record
I personally didn't think the album we submitted was that bad - all of our albums were recorded as 'kitchen sessions' but we have good equipment and usually managed to get excellent recordings

One of the worst experiences as when we were recording a teller of long stories
At one stage, his brother across the room, interjected, saying "Packie - you have that wrong" and hooked the microphone out of my hand
I watched our AKG go bouncing across the stone kitchen floor - fortunately it was undamaged
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 03:26 PM

Packie Russell?


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:30 AM

The information about Roger Dixon illustrates another point about the Pardon 'industry' to use a metaphor. He was not a farm labourer. Nor was his father. Yet it is possible to read that Pardon's family had been farm labourers since the year dot. So in effect, once again, the information selected by Revivalists, many of whom were on the very far left, and had an exp0licit political agenda around folk music, gives us a slanted or biased view of the reality, if, that is, we take it for granted and fail to subject it to some thoughtful scrutiny.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM

On tape recording, and sound recording generally, Ord has some useful points. The original is worth reading, what follows is my version, along the same lines of thinking.

First, there is nothing traditional about a person singing into a microphone in the company of the sound technicians.

Ord points out that in many ways the practices of the Revival, including sing arounds in clubs were designed to give a feel of authenticity and tradition, but were in fact highly artificial happenings. Background noises on tapes (such as Pardon's clock ticking) on one level give the impression that what is being recorded is 'real life' - as opposed to artificial, but this does not affect the non-traditional situation.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:41 AM

"Packie Russell?"
No, Packie Murrihy, a local man with hour-long stories
His father was reputed to have started a story on Monday night, broken it off after an hour and taken it up again it every night, through to Friday
The wonder tales in Clare are episodic and allow a teller to do that

"Pardon 'industry"
Your hate campaign against Walter is becoming as offensive as your thread
Perhaps a 'Pikey's Out' type bonfire like that in Lewes would be to your taste
Could you please sop this attack on one of England's finest singers please or - if you don't, could people please ignore it in the hope he/she goes away
This is getting very disturbing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:50 AM

Hello Jag

Thank you for your contribution. I'll try to explain why Ord's piece is relavant again. He is discussing how to interpret sound recordings, and how within the Revival and afterwards, sound was used to convey messages. What we can take about it is general ideas, his description of the Revival thinking (which we all know about if we have read about Lloyd and MacColl). Nobody is suggesting that Ord's piece is specifically about MacColl.

There is no mention of my house in my book of household do it yourself. This does not mean that the ideas in it are not relevant to my house!

I had not seen the posts about the clocks in recent threads before posting. But here is an example of something on some Pardon tapes - as well as in relation to the whole 'Revival' (interesting word-choice in itself) which we can use ideas from Ord to think about.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:58 AM

Carroll

If you cannot discuss a topic without resorting to this sort of emotional nastiness, then perhaps it might be better not to bother? For me, it does your credibility as a wanna be researcher no good at all. Who in the future is going to believe or credit as reliable or 'scholarly' the output of a person who conducts themselves like this on threads about research.

There has been very little decent 'research' on Pardon, the thesis comparing his style with some other singers is about the only thing I have found. Calling people who turn on their brains when reading the output of the Revival Pardon industry names does nothing to advance their case.

It is worth looking up some old exchances between The Sandman and Carroll on the topic of the sort of broad generalising claim that Carroll makes on the basis of his assertions about Pardon. The Sandman had some good points, but these were largely met with invective.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:15 AM

"If you cannot discuss a topic without resorting to this sort of emotional nastiness, "
Anybody who denigrated singers like Walter Pardon deserves all the nastiness they get
You didn't know water - you hadn't even heard of him before you came here - you don;t like or understand his singing and you are relying on scraps and Chinese Whispers you can gig up from the internet#
How dare yyou calim thare has been no decent research on Walter - Pat and I spent twenty years recording what he had to say and have archived it so it won't be lost
Mike Yates recorded Walter at lenghth and has proiduced a number of tremendous articles on his researches
Roy Palmer recorded Walter and pased on what he found
When Walter was 'discovered' Bill Leader, Dave Bland and Karl Dallas recorded him and his songs at length (we have all those recordings)
Sam Richards an Tish Stubbs recorded him and produced a cassette of his performance at Totnes
Martin Carthy and Norma Waterson formed a huge admitation for Walter and spoke of him in glowing terms wherever he sang
You get to hear of him and withing five minutes you are attempting to rip his reputation to shreds and you refuse even to identify yourself
Ho dare you

You represent everything that iw wrong in modern folksong scholarship - an obsession to tear down the work of everybody else to make room for your own (except, in your case, you haven't done any work
Please go away - your be=haviour towrds this gentle, talented, intelligent, generous (and very dead old man it totally unacceptable at all levelts - on both an academic and human level
My name is Jim Carroll, by the waqy, were you never taught the social graces
JIM CARROLL


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:43 AM

Pseud, anyone who saw your thread about Jim (that was rightly deleted) will know fine well that you are nothing but a troll. Anything previous that you posted is now seen in a completely different light - coloured by your ridiculous agenda.

Why on earth you choose to spend your time on earth trolling an old man I have no idea, but perhaps you should reconsider your life choices.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM

CJ

Thank you for your input. I guess different people have different ideas about things.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM

I dare say it because it is true. There is a difference between 'decent research' and making tape recordings.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM

And my point precisely is that the Pardon Industry made great use of anecdotal scraps of gossip, selected and published to meet its agenda.

If some people on here are within a little 'bubble' and cannot or will not see them, then that would be their problem.

I say it like I see it.

And it also seems to me you cannot have it both ways. If you hold out a claim to be a 'researcher' then part and parcel of this is that your research methods will be subjected to analysis, evaluation and comment. You should be able to explain and justify them. You should be able to engage in such discussion in a reasonable manner.

Poking a microphone at somebody and asking them leading questions is not I would suggest a way to produce 'decent' note that word research.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

But it is Jim's reputation in future years he sullies by these outbursts. They may live on long after all of us are gone. So really it is his problem, not mine.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:26 AM

Of course, the fact is that I started this thread and Jim came along and trolled it just when it was going quite nicely. In fact I deliberately started it when he had said he would not be posting, as it seemed unlikely to get anywhere much after he came back, and that proved to be the case. Even his pals were telling him to back off, and they got their heads snapped off!

But thank you all for your contributions.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:29 AM

"Ord points out that in many ways the practices of the Revival, including sing arounds in clubs were designed to give a feel of authenticity and tradition, but were in fact highly artificial happenings." We know that. Academic works often need include statements of what most people thinks are obvious.

"there is nothing traditional about a person singing into a microphone in the company of the sound technicians." We know that as well. If Jim was a sound technician (I am not doubting that he is competent with equipment) aiming at a recording that could be published, rather than capturing something that would pass, then I think he would have had the clocks moved out.

Academic works often need to include statements of what most people thinks are obvious.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:31 AM

One to more pleasant things

"Packie Russell?"
We recorded Packie once - not only was he one of the finest concertina players I have heard, but he also had a number of songs which he never sang
He gave us a dirty - almost obscene version of 'The Gaberlunzie Man' aptly named 'Tom Tadger'
Clare Library refused to put it up on our website - quite rightly
Packie was an example of what go wrong if you don't cherish your tradition bearers
He and his two brothers, Micho and Gussie played regularly in O'Connors's Bar in Doolin when we first viited Clare - we met our friend, John Lyons at one of their sessions for the first time
Dookin became the target for tourists, mainly Yanks with twelve-string guitars and gradually the Russels (with the exeption of Micho) were edged out so the visitors could listen to each other rather than good music
The would give Packie a pint and sit him in the corner, out of harm's way and top him up regularly
Packie became unable to play and just sat in the corner and drank
Luckily, a couple of devotees, particularly our friend, Donal Maguire, recorded enough of his playing to lave record of what wonderful musician Packie was
Here in Miltown, whenever someone arrives with a bodhran, we send them up to Doolin where they will be welcomed with open arms
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM

Psuedonymous, I have been of the opinion since the opening post that you started this thread to troll Jim.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM

" I have been of the opinion since the opening post that you started this thread to troll Jim."
Don't think so Jag - people like him need to create their own stage in order to be noticed
A twenty-odd year dead old singer is as easy a platform as any - he's not here to answer for himself
He didn't know Walter, he doesm't want to know Walter - it was either him or Travellers
Can we leave him to stew in his own bile please otherwise he will have succeeded in closing yet another thread with his hate-filled ignorance
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:49 AM

Pseud - I gave you benefit of the doubt..
Now I'm even more inclined to think the worst of who/what you are,
and the dubious agenda you may be pursuing...

You have lost the trust of mudcatters,
We are not prepared to indulge your elitist academic pretentions'
You have rendered yourself no longer welcome here.

If, however, you are a genuine academic seeking information and feedback,
then the onus is on you to make a positive effort to fit in better,
and communicate with us in 'plain English' style that is more apropriate for this kind of forum...

http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:51 AM

I poke too soon
He ha=is now turning his tender attentions to the Traveller thread
Can some Mod please put a stop to this Troll wrecker ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM

I'm young enough to see the Stalinist milieu in which Carroll, Lloyd and MacColl operated as 'history'; for youngsters like Ord it must seem very much like a 'foreign country'.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM

Sorry - should have finished
I have asked that he be boycotted on the Traveller thread - can the same be done here
Jim


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM

Not being old enough to know many people of the last 'left school at 14 and got a job' generation, who could have been Walter if they had his interests, explains a lot.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:11 AM

Another point, and I think this is in Ord, but if not no matter since I think it's quite well known, is that many in the 'Revival' saw themselves as somehow 'authentic' in a sense of not being part of capitalistic society, and presumably this may be why objection was made to the use of the phrase 'Pardon Industry'. However, the term is apt, to use a phrase favoured by Carroll 'Go read a book', in this case a dictionary.

The use of surnames in referring to the work of 'researchers' is conventional and I don't have a problem with it.


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Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:13 AM

"My research applies a cultural-historical approach to the intersection of ideology and musical practice in British folk and popular music. In 2017 I completed my AHRC-funded PhD thesis which combined ethnographic and desk-based research to explore the cultural significance of sound recording in the British post-war folk revival. I am interested in the role of recording and other media technologies in folk music cultures, and have published chapters on the role of recording within the British folk-rock movement, and on the media activism of the songwriter Ewan MacColl. In December 2017 I was appointed postdoctoral fellow on an AHRC Creative Engagement project on the development of music tourism in Scotland. I am currently preparing articles on contemporary English folk field recordings, and on theories of cultural transmission in folk music historiography. In addition to my research activities, I remain an active musician with significant professional experience as a singer and guitarist in a range of folk and popular styles."

Matthew Ord
Postdoctoral Research Fellow

On my PC desktop, I have two folders..

"Obnoxious Pricks" and "Good Guys"..

I suppose I ought to consider opening a third folder for the less easily definable spectrum inbetween...

Now.. what to title it...?????


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