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BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Dec 19 - 06:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Dec 19 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Dec 19 - 06:24 PM
robomatic 16 Dec 19 - 08:40 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 19 - 11:12 PM
robomatic 16 Dec 19 - 11:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 19 - 02:17 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM
Acorn4 17 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 19 - 12:21 PM
Iains 17 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Dec 19 - 12:45 PM
Acorn4 17 Dec 19 - 01:16 PM
Mossback 17 Dec 19 - 02:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Dec 19 - 02:44 PM
robomatic 17 Dec 19 - 06:33 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Dec 19 - 06:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Dec 19 - 09:51 PM
robomatic 17 Dec 19 - 10:12 PM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 03:41 AM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM
DMcG 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Dec 19 - 05:03 AM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 19 - 06:00 AM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 07:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Dec 19 - 07:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 08:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Dec 19 - 10:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Dec 19 - 12:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Dec 19 - 12:34 PM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Dec 19 - 12:51 PM
Raggytash 18 Dec 19 - 03:10 PM
Workingtonman 18 Dec 19 - 03:52 PM
robomatic 18 Dec 19 - 04:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Dec 19 - 04:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM
Workingtonman 18 Dec 19 - 04:54 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 19 - 05:22 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 19 - 05:24 PM
Iains 18 Dec 19 - 05:36 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Dec 19 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Dec 19 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 19 - 06:19 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM

The programme anout Lincolnshire Police is on tonight. mostly they try to keep it light. But apparently the main drug gangs working round Boston Eastern European in origin. It wasn't a point that was laboured - just commented on in passing, when the turf wars had spilled out onto the street.

Perhaps you'd like to explain the cultural advantages of having your kids sold heroin by Eastern Ruropeans as opposed to home grown scum.

You're the one that's in denial Dave. . no ones against people coming here and behaving themselves.

the people had some of the lowest wages in the country as it was. Seasonal people used to come over from Ireland and pick flowers and potatoes and beans when it was required. The town of bposton used to love playing host to the sailors from many countries but maiknly from the continent whose ships used to use the docks. Frequently they sorted out their quarrrels with knives buteven then - it was reckoned to be their own business. This was a very poor - but very tolerant society. Now its not.

You think its cos they're racist. I know these peole and I can tell that's not thecase. Abuse from outsiders doesn't help. Corbyn was just like a loudmouth on the edge of the crowd trying to work people up. that's why he lost. people sussed him out. don't be like him.

he's part of the problem - not the solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:05 PM

For me, Corbyn appealed more than his competitors for Labour Leadership..

But I've said right from the outstart I thought he was too old
for the amount of time needed to take the party to an election win,
and serve at least one term as PM..
And he carried far too much historic baggage which the tory media would seize on
to exploit to discredit & destroy him..

Sadly, I was right...

All along I've hoped he's been mentoring good potential successors...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:21 PM

I don't think they are racist, Al. I don't know them. I don't know you either but you have now made at least 2 racist statements. East Europeans are criminals and scroungers. What am I supposed to make of that? Do you really believe it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:24 PM

Well my mum's side are all from Salford and Prestwich, an area with one of the biggest Jewish populations in the UK, and my grandad worked on Salford docks all his life. For decades my mum and dad lived on the Bury/Radcliffe border, an area which has huge numbers of Muslims. I taught in Poplar in the seventies when there were large numbers of second-generation West Indian kids in my school (40% of the school population). I then moved to a school in Walthamstow in which over a third of the kids were from Muslim families.

So this...

"If you are lucky enough to live somewhere unaffected by the trouble, keep your gob shut on the subject.

"The utter bullshit YOU and STEVE are spouting is the Hampstead Corbyn line that was so far out of touch with reality that we have Boris in Number 10.

You have no shame about the utter rubbish you talk, and the situation you have created. I worked in multi racial schools and gigged and recorded all over Europe...."

...is just about the most unreal bloody claptrap I've heard in years. I might live in Cornwall now (by far the most xenophobic and racist area I've ever lived in, despite the lovely scenery, as it happens, and I do fight back) but I've seen just as much, if not more, real life as you, Al, and I resent being tarred with the lame old metropolitan elite brush. By the way, it's not Hampstead but I won't dwell. And I'm rather proud of the fact that, in all my years in schools, I never once let a racist remark pass unchallenged in any of my classrooms. The instinct lives on, which is why I'm objecting now to some of your comments. I don't think you can say that of yourself, considering the occasional detestable comment you relieve yourself of in this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:40 PM

Steve:

What if someone besides you had substituted the word _______ for the word Tory and posted the identical posts you have recently posted.

Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:12 PM

That's giving the game away, robe. If they ptactised that sort of divergent thinking they wouldn't be so quick and self justifying with their abuse. Its not nice calling people names like racist. Given the dark history of our country, it takes a certain sort of ignorant priggishness to set yourself up as the arbiter in these matters.

Also giving the game away is the fact that if you had worked multiracial classrooms you wouldn't actually know when racial and cultural abuse was being used half the time.

Bet you were a bundle of laughs. The Rosa Parks of the staffroom.

(pause for an assembly featuring We shall Overcome and Kumbaya)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:57 PM

We've traded barbs in the past. And I'm no saint. But I HAVE seen "Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood." recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:17 AM

Robomatic. Being East European or being black is an accident of birth. Being a Tory or being a racist is a lifestyle choice. It is perfectly acceptable to berate people for their lifestyle choices but not for being born in the "wrong" place.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM

Al, who is this 'you' character to keep talking to? I'm confused.
If you referred to your target by name, I think we would all have a better idea about what's going on.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM

One area Labour could concentrate on is the area of lobbying MPs. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents not outside interests. The "Monster Raving Loony Party" had the policy that MPs who accept donations from lobbyists should be forced to wear logos like footballers - Monsanto? Lockheed? Not such a bad idea!

Trouble is many of the Labour ones have their snouts in these various troughs as well. Declaring an interest just doesn't seem to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:21 PM

BTW, Al.

Calling Boris an albino piglet won't do it.

I know it won't. I know it is trite and childish but it was a sobriquet coined by his peers and refers to his ability to wriggle out of the shit. Do you have nothing to say about referring to Corbyn as Compo and magic grandad or referring to Dianne Abbot as abbotopamus? Or are your new found friends beyond such reproach?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

Guido is the UK branch/franchise of the propaganda network...

The internet won this election...


Waste of time reading guido's analysis of why Compo received such a drubbing then, but I will supply it anyway, secure in the knowledge the latte slurping remainiacs here will not read it, much less understand it.
This will ensure that the biggest sea change in British politics ever will make zero impact on your constrained thinking.
The hive mind driven by ideology is proven to be incapable of any rational thought. This will ensure labour is sidelined for generations to come. The labourite are looking everywhere outside the bubble for factors to explain their horrific defeat. They cannot accept rubbisk policies and a rubbish front bench have utterly destroyed both the party and their credibility.

https://order-order.com/2019/12/17/post-election-polling-roundup-not-good-labour/

Warbling that the working class can kiss my ass was not a votewinner outside the metropolitan labour luvvie heartland.
The twitter witter rebounded wonderfully beyond all expectation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:45 PM

Anything to say about the last post, Al, or do your criticisms not apply to your right wing friends?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 01:16 PM

Interesting how many reports are hailing the Boris victory as "A kick against the establishment".

For years we used to tell ourselves that we were fighting "the establishment" when we talked politics.

I've understood events far more since realising that "the establishment" has fallen out with itself big time.

In the red (the colour doesn't matter) you have the globalists - the Blairs, Clintons, the EU Commission, Macron, Merkel, the Guardian, George Soros, the Democratic Party, CNN etc

and in the blue corner those in favour of national governments - Putin, Farage, Murdoch, Trump, Fox News, the Daily Mail, Le Pen, Boris, the late Tony Benn.

Those who think there is something left wing about the EU are equally mistaken as those who think Trump and Boris are not part of the establishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:18 PM

Bet you were a bundle of laughs. The Rosa Parks of the staffroom.

Oh great, Al - now you're making light of Rosa Parks.

Nixon:"I am not a crook"

AL: "I am not a racist"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:44 PM

There's racists.. and then there's racists...

It's a better world if no racism exists,
but a 01%, or even a 10% racist might be more tolerable than a 100% racist...???

Zero tolerance for racists is a fine idea,
but it really causes so much animosity and confrontation
in a community of diverse folks
who for the most part are fairly decent and friendly human beings...

.. and intolerance of any kind is somewhat rather shit...

Personally I cut a little slack for older less enlightened folks.

I have to with my working class council estate family...
My old mum is half East European Jewish,
and even she unconsciously says the most awkward things
in errrrmmm.. old fashioned terms about her heritage,
that a sharp eared young anti racist student
might take automatic offence at, and kick off about...

That almost happened last time I took her out shopping...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:33 PM

racism knows no ethnic limits. One common response of racism is reverse racism.

Note:
reverse racism = racism.

And I'd rather be dealing with some frank racism than the covering blandishments of deniers.

I'll never forget the first major network documentary about Black Muslims: The Hate That Hate Produced

Whatever the ethnicity or color, we are subject to our own background 'radiation'.

It's part of being human.

Outstanding interview on Fresh Air yesterday with Charlize Theron. She has just made a movie about the sexual harassment scandal within FOX news, related her own experience with a famous HWood director, her own family experience and her life as a young girl growing up in Apartheid South Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:58 PM

From Simon Jenkins in the Guardian, a loose cannon of a man but who is occasionally capable of hitting the nail on the head (the bold bits are mine):

"No, it was not just Jeremy Corbyn. Last week’s crushing defeat of the left was also caused by the Liberal Democrat party splitting the vote. Yet again, by offering itself as the vote launderer of British liberalism, it has served as merely the fellow traveller of British Conservatism. Boris Johnson owes it a huge debt of gratitude.

Misreading election results – largely so as to gloat or spread blame – is the traditional folly of post-election analysts. Boris Johnson won the election with a thumping parliamentary victory, but the operative word is parliamentary. His 43.6% of the vote was ahead of Theresa May’s only by 1.2 percentage points, and dozens of his MPs were elected with less than 50% of the vote. Most of these – such as Kensington, Keighley, Bridgend and Chingford – were seats that Labour would have won had there been no Lib Dem presence.



As for the election being a “second referendum” on Brexit, anti-Brexit or second referendum parties won more votes than did Johnson, even assuming all Tories were pro-Brexit. Yes, leave voters appear to have swarmed to the Conservatives, notably in the north, and are thus probably short-term. But the Lib Dem vote soared by 1.3m or 4.1 percentage points, while Corbyn’s fell by 2.6m. Johnson’s rose by only 304,000.The reality is that the left-of-centre vote was calamitously split. Polling during the campaign saw Labour surge only when the Lib Dems appeared to collapse."

Don't be complacent now, Boris...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 09:51 PM

Steve - I suggested earlier it's time the liberals called it quits;
individual members and supporters honestly deciding whether to transfer to either labour of tory for future elections...

But around here, all combined Labour and liberal votes were still nowhere sufficient to beat the tories...

Maybe because old tories continue to flock from all over the the rest of the UK,
to move to the south west to retire and fester...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:12 PM

Steve:

You did not respond to my identifying the origin of the quote of Mr. Corbyn being "an unreconstructed Marxist". My following response was that true or not, this was a matter of perception. The fact that the vote was split may be everything you say; but, unfortunately, perceived splits are a fact of life in and out of Democracy. Without Ralph Nader and the Green Party Gore would have likely won the U.S. 2000 election. Without Bernie Sanders, Hilary might have won in 2016. Or, without Hilary, Bernie might have won in 2016. Without Harald Hardrada, Harold Godwinson might have held his own at the Battle of Hastings.

Politics is sometimes fair, usually not. Democratic politics is a subset of politics, hence subject to these cruel rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:41 AM

Typical leftie responses here. They simply cannot accept their insane policies directly caused their defeat. Perhaps they should take up navel gazing,   it might provide enlightenment. For as long as they try to blame external causes for their massacre they will remain in the wilderness and shrivel and die. We no longer need pay the slightest bit of attention to their whiny waffling. The electorate raised two fingers to the lefties. Payback for continuously insulting them. You would have thought those stunning tactics by the democrats that Elected Trump would have led to a few lessons learnt, but obviously not.(call people deplorable and they will say kiss my arse and vote elsewhere)
When are you going to accept your useless party lost the election all on their ownsome. When the labour heartlands voted tory to avoid putting corbyn in power it surely cannot be so hard a stretch to figure out why?
But as you are all taking your lead from the guardian the hive mind of ideology takes over and all sense goes for a hike down the road.
The only statisticto take away here is that recited by theGuardian in a rare moment of lucidity:
Boris Johnson will remain prime minister with a comfortable majority, as numerous Labour heartland seats fall to the Conservatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM

More from the Guardian the mouthpiece of the leftie hive mind:
Corbyn, antisemitism and Brexit: Labour MPs on why they lost

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/17/corbyn-antisemitism-and-brexit-labour-mps-on-why-they-lost
Well bless my little cotton socks! This is a narrative that runs counter to everything the lefty extremists were posting on here!

Worzel gummidge, antisemitism and a kama sutra brexit policy. How could it have possibly gone wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 AM

There were plenty of overlapping causes of the loss of Labour seats, some to do with internal factors and some external. The external ones include the way the LibDems led to a split vote and that the vagaries of first past the post can turn a relatively small change in percentage vote into a large difference in the number of seats. We usually look at that in terms of how difficult it is for small parties to gain seats, but it is also true with the battle between larger parties. It is true elsewhere as well - the percentage/number of voters change in the US is usually quite small, but gives big swings in the governing parties.

But that these external factors exist does not diminish the importance of the internal ones. Undoubtedly one was that strong Remainers often thought that Labour was secretly a Leave party (and the LibDems hammered that Labour was not a party of Remain, for example). At the same time, strong Leavers thought it was secretly a remain party.   But that is not the whole story either. There will be plenty of arguments go on inside the party, and as I said somewhere, I don't mind if this takes a year, because clarity at the end is so important, and even if everyone were united now, the 80 majority can overrule them.

Also important is the 'Get Brexit Done' mantra. One of the less observed effects of that is that it releases Labour from its attempt to ride two horses. Not entirely, but to a large extent. Arguments for or against some aspect of leaving are likely to be less inflammatory, for example.

It is also clear that the PM wants to try to keep as many of the 'red wall' wards voting Tory as possible. I suspect that will give them benefits that they would not have got with a narrow Tory win, and very likely not with a Labour win either. A focus on local buses for example - always popular with Boris! - will have a more immediate and beneficial impact than some of the more generic policies. Also, the Queen's Speech will reportedly contain references to a bill to protect worker's rights,.I think that might not have been there at all without the red wall wards voting in numbers.


Quoting a couplet from 'If' again:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:03 AM

The rest of the verse quite apt to

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools
Or see the things you've give your life to broken
And stoop to build them up with work out tools


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:50 AM

Just cant help getting it wrong

You will be needing more than workout tools to sort out the worn out tool that is Corbyn


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:00 AM

Corbyn identifies himself as a democratic socialist. During the seventies I allied myself (though never joined, as I don't wish to be bound by ideology) to a true Marxist group in London trade union politics, along with Blair Peach and others. We regarded Jeremy Corbyn and his allies, who were our contemporaries, as non-revolutionaries a bit to the right of us, and they in turn distanced themselves from us. Call me a Marxist and I may or may not wear it as a badge of honour. Mass media calling Corbyn a Marxist, unreconstructed or not (in itself a pejorative word), is both an intended demonising slur and a downright lie.

As for democracy, here are some things that are not undemocratic:

Suggesting that the LibDems disband

Suggesting that the LibDems split the vote

Criticising the LibDems for splitting the vote

The LibDems declaring that they would scrap brexit without a vote if they got power

Calling for a third referendum (the second one was on June 23 2016 and I don't recall the brexit brigade objecting to THAT one)

Here are some things that are undemocratic:

Deliberately oversimplifying extremely complex issues by sloganising ("get brexit done")

Lying about what voting in 2016 meant ("the people voted to leave the single market and customs union" when you can bet your bottom dollar that the vast majority of the electorate didn't have a clue what they were or even knew of their existence at all)

Lying that the referendum delivered "the will of the people" when only 38% of the electorate and 25% of the population voted leave

Lying about the amount of money per week we would save by leaving

Lying about immigration by using a photograph of mostly non-white refugees

Lying about controlling our borders when we don't control the non-EU immigration that we COULD control and when we can't control people leaving

Lying about "regaining sovereignty" when leaving means handing much control over trade to the US and China

Lying about future border controls between the UK, Northern Ireland and the Republic

Lying about the future numbers of nurses and new hospitals

Lying about Corbyn's character, that he's an unreconstructed Marxist, that he hates Jews, that he's the friend of terrorists, etc. (I'll stop there...)

If you cynically lie to the electorate you are subverting democracy by trying to give people (who are largely gullible and politically naive) false choices at the election. The downright lies I've listed, and there were plenty of others, are not the same thing at all as putting your best foot forward and indulging in a bit of spin. I witnessed "news"papers propagating these lies time and time again and I witnessed BBC interviewers routinely failing to pull up Tories when they were lying. Lying with impunity is a very worrying development in western politics and is the one thing that will ultimately see off democracy altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:09 AM

Stop whining shaw. you lost. get over it. No one wants to listen to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:46 AM

It is getting funnier by the post isn't it. Keep it up Steve, he's getting into stroke territory. Have you seen the brexit thread too? Apoplectic on there. If everyone else was to ignore him too I don't think he'd see the year out :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM

First day at nursery :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 08:16 AM

Self delusion is a joy to watch, especially when it is the loopy left, who cannot follow their own advice.

No russians this time round? Guess we have to blame it all on wurzel the goon then!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:46 AM

The list seems to have stopped at the fake news of Matt Hancock's aide being punched. Not sure if they will update it now the liar in chief has been given free reign say what he likes. I do hope they continue it but even if they don't it is always worth reminding people anyway

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:27 PM

Steve you are more gullible and naive than thee most stupid person who voted Tory if you believed Corbyn could win.

Try to absorb how bloody naive and gullible that is. Think about it for 24 hours before coming up with all this self righteous rubbish.

I know that you and Dave couldn't face the fact a more considered and intelligent approach was called for. But that was the case. Calling people like me racist - long time Labour voters is just the tip of this arrogance iceberg.

Corbyn in a way is not to blame. Its people like you two - who managed to persuade him to provide BJ with softest target imaginable.

Corbyn won't take ownership. He blames the press- even though hardly anyone reads them. Perhaps you've got more intellectual imtegrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:34 PM

Margaret Hodge re-elected... oh well..

is Barking a Labour safe seat, or a Hodge safe seat...???

She'll have to retire,
or get kicked out of the party for disloyalty and divisiveness eventually..

Good luck to the next party leader facing this problem...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

Big Al you should encourage the woke wazzocks. Their views are poison to most of the electorate. If they cannot accept their stupidity labour will never be in power again.
I recommend you look at some of the aussie youtube clips of sky news. They pull no punches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZQEU5uxXZ0

I like the crack about hugh grant inducing projectile vomiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:51 PM

Al - I'm less inclined to be so critical of Corbyn...

He was almost a great leader, better than expected..

But not strong enough to withstand the relentless crusades from all sides
to destroy him..

He was way to reasonable and nice, too weak in constantly appeasing his false accusers,
rather than standing up firm and fighting back when needed...
He let some very vile enemies get away with too much for far too long...!!!

That's what exasperated me about him...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:10 PM

Al, are you SURE you support Labour?

Every one of your posts sounds increasingly like you are Iains little clone.

If that sounds like an insult it is meant to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Workingtonman
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:52 PM

i've supported corbyn - he's why i rejoined the party. i thought the manifesto was great and good to see the party proposing sensible, moderate policies that do have plenty of popular support. however, there was so much shite thrown at him that inevitably a load of it stuck to him and , and us. the baseless anti-semitic slurs for example seemed to hit home while the disgraceful windrush situation, the tories' hostile environment and their cosying up to-and selling arms to- any nasty dictator who wanted them was always presented to us as non-issues. in fact, it was disgusting institutional racism over many years - a wee bit more serious than a passing comment about a possibly dodgy picture 25 years ago.

and yet..... corbyn should have known, unfair as it was, a load of the shite had stuck to him and it did weigh him, and us, down. he could have gone 18 months back and been well-respected for a job well-done. is it only me that thinks that proposing to be prime minister at 75 years old while rightly condemning the tory policy of deferring retirement til folk are 75 is ridiculous? he should have left - and i'm angry with him that he didn't step aside.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:06 PM

Steve:

Thanks for the explication. I don't agree with you but I understand you slightly more better. Might be worthwhile putting together a thread on Marxism as its own subject. I don't know if I'm up to it. My main point which I'm sure you understood was to the matter of perception. "Get Brexit Done" is as you said stupidly dense but it is also genius in its encapsulated appeal. To quote Mel Brooks from one of his bits "I said 'It's too simple. I didn't know then it was eloquent.'"

Iains:

Normally when you get criticized by the usual gang (not me) it's for simply stating a case that many folks in this forum disagree with. But now you are simply crowing over a perceived 'win' rather than explaining WHY it is a win or examining why it might indeed be pyrrhic (Winning the argument while the UK becomes the nonK).

You're all mostly stuck together on an island. Make it a proud island and not a messy lifeboat. You know 'Keep calm and carry on' and all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:12 PM

I support. Labour but I get very pissed off with people who put their fantasies of Utopia before the practicality of getting elected.

I think most of the abuse came from Corbynista/Momentum lot PFR.

No one called Corbyn a racist - like I have been called repeatedly on this thread. And to be honest - this is just small appetiser for what has been going on FB.

A study from Lancaster University (which is broadly supportive of Labour, certainly anti-tory) stated one of the main reasons labour lost was because 'it portrayed people with legitimate and understandable concerns about EU immigratiom as knuckle dragging racists.'

That's what those two have done here and its why Labour lost. Boundless arrogance. The besetting middle class moral failure.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 PM

Hoe true is it Corbyn has wanted to step down over the last few years,
but kept getting persuaded to stick it out...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM

I don't know. I just keep thinking what a bloody tragedy we lost John Smith when we did.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Workingtonman
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:54 PM

'no-one called corbyn a racist' ? really? despite his lifelong opposition to racism and injustice this 'racist, anti-semitic' crap was one of the most repeated and most effective insults in the whole campaign


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:22 PM

I agree with your first paragraph completely, Pete. I joined Labour when Corbyn was elected. I'm not resigning any time soon. We couldn't and can't win with him at the helm, best candidate for PM by a country mile though he was. I think we need Rebecca Long-Bailey, a grounded, young, working-class northern woman who will shed all those Corbyn negatives whilst maintaining his legacy. She is more than a match for Johnson because she comes from her heart and she keeps her cool. He's shit scared of people like her. He can't handle principle. And I'd back Angela Rayner for deputy. They are great mates and would work well together, even though Angela is no Corbynite. But not bloody Yvette, please. And Kier, good bloke though he is, will be characterised as a remainer man-in-suit who has splinters up his arse from fence-sitting over Jeremy. Emily Thornberry is a very unattractive figure who says bloody daft things, and Jess, though confident and direct, has dissed Jezza, so not her. So that's my pitch. As for your second paragraph, I'll have to have a think.

And I'm biased in favour of Becky because she's the MP for Salford, where me mum comes from, and her dad worked in Salford socks, just like my grandad. That'll do me! Dirty Old Town!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:24 PM

I suppose they wore Salford socks in Salford docks!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:36 PM

If pure as driven snow, why is the equality and human rights commission
investigating Labour. Do you think they believe it is racist antisemitic crap?
I hardly think so.

But rest assured your continual denial makes your party unelectable and even if Corbyn is cast aside there is no replacement with any credibility. Until you purge momentum and all the other extremists your cause is lost.
I believe selling the idea that compo had a lifelong opposition to racism and injustice is a nonstarter and easily disproved. The lefty bubble of delusion is still riding strong.

Believe me, your inability to accept what everyone is telling you suits me and the brexiteers down to the ground. The smug certainty of the opinions offered by the likes of shaw and the gnome and their constant string of abuse lost the election.
Their inability to be 'umble will lose the next election.
and the one after ..............etc

Robomatic. I have had constant abuse off the cabal here for years.
I was right, they were wrong. Hardly surprising I wish to rub their noses in it for a while.
They and their remainiac ilk have blown away 3.5 years
by refusing to accept the democratic vote,
by attempting to veto no deal they destroyed our bargaining position, they tried to subvert democracy by hijacking Parliament with the collusion of the poison dwarf bercow.
They tried to stop brexit by going to court every 5 minutes.
Well it seems the electorate agreed with me in spades and annihilated
labour. Democracy has been restored.
When the remainiacs man up and accept defeat and stop blaming everyone else but themselves, then I will stop crowing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM

You're severely neurotic and you are clearly a right-wing plant. Who is it: Tommy? Semen Staines?? How does it feel to be a poodle? I'm researching the wordings of your posts at the moment, going back a fair while, comparing and contrasting (so don't even begin to think you can modify now), in order to see what you're copy and pasting. It isn't looking good for you so far, but you know me, I'm thorough and I don't spill the beans until I'm sure...

Found any good new cellphone masts lately? Or would you prefer to post from your home computer?? Thought not! Maybe you live in a cardboard box...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:54 PM

The best man for the job Hilary Benn is sadly not standing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM

I'm amazed at your Damascene conversion, Bonzo, let alone your solicitous concern for poor old Labour...

But Hilary and co have had their day. Ain't happening. Half a million people like me will pick the next leader, and I suspect that 0.00983% of us would support Hilary.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:06 PM

there was actually something quite likable about that Owen Smith,
but he's buggerd off out of it for whatever to where ever...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:19 PM

There's a bit of a fine line to tread for Labour. Jezza redefined where Labour should be: none of your metro elite shite, plenty of proper socialism, nationalising the friggin' sharks in the energy industry who've been ripping us off for years, etc etc. The tabloids have ensured that his legacy is tarnished. So be it. But we don't need to ditch that principled approach. We need a leader who will respect that legacy and move it forward. If the people don't like it, tough shit. At least we've stuck to our principles.


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