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BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Iains 17 Nov 19 - 01:31 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM
Iains 18 Nov 19 - 03:25 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 19 - 04:33 AM
Iains 18 Nov 19 - 04:42 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 19 - 05:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 08:34 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 19 - 11:02 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 19 - 11:47 AM
Iains 18 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM
DMcG 18 Nov 19 - 12:27 PM
DMcG 18 Nov 19 - 12:59 PM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM
DMcG 18 Nov 19 - 06:17 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 01:50 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 01:52 AM
Iains 19 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 19 - 04:08 AM
Workingtonman 19 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 19 - 05:24 AM
Iains 19 Nov 19 - 05:48 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Nov 19 - 03:28 PM
DMcG 19 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 05:03 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 05:06 PM
DMcG 19 Nov 19 - 05:18 PM
Iains 20 Nov 19 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 19 - 12:55 PM
DMcG 20 Nov 19 - 01:28 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM
Backwoodsman 21 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM
DMcG 21 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 19 - 03:27 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM
DMcG 21 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 04:13 PM
Backwoodsman 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 05:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 19 - 06:10 PM
Donuel 21 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 01:31 PM

2 rongs don't make a rite!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM

Another Johnson Lie.

Wouldn’t you think that, having led a Brexit campaign based on racism and xenophobic propaganda designed to turn the feeble-minded and easily-led against migrants, that he’d have the numbers at his finger-tips? Well of course he has, but the truth doesn’t fit his agenda, so he lies unashamedly.

A disgusting specimen of the worst kind of human being.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:25 AM

Must be a bit like compo then, sucking up to hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM

You really couldn’t make it up! Wonder how many of the ‘Take Back Control’ bunch will vote for him?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:33 AM

O what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:42 AM

Anyone know compo's Brexit policy then?
In moving pictures and sound from the BBC yesterday.
linked Courtesy of guido, of course.
https://order-order.com/2019/11/17/corbyn-refuses-five-times-say-whether-hes-leave-remain/

Kinda hard to deny his wriggling boyos! What a joke!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:55 AM

Inspirational stuff from Paul Mason, a brilliant Labour activist, from today's LabourList. He's a good lad is Paul, not least because he went to the same school as me!

I’ve spent three Saturdays on the doors in marginals and, though it’s tough in places, we’re making progress. Every seat is different, but what I’m picking up is that the sheer volume of “undecided” voters is large. The Tories will try to tip these voters over with a campaign of fear and carefully targeted lies in the last ten days of the campaign.

That’s why I’ve pulled together the ten things that I personally keep in mind when I’m canvassing and at the hustings. I hope these tips help…

1. Win the battle for credibility over tax and spend. Explain why borrowing to spend money on long term infrastructure is the only way to rebuild our country.

2. Win the battle for verification over assertion, truth over lies. The entire Tory strategy is to normalise lying and get the broadcasters to accept it. Stop the broadcast until lies are corrected and demand an on air correction.

3. On the doorstep… Listen. Understand where the anger is coming from and tell a different story – of hope about the future of our communities and our country.


4. Relentlessly focus resources on real target seats and wards. Feel-good events won’t win the election but do boost morale of volunteers, so keep them short and interesting. Polls show we’re making progress, which means we have to adjust our targets in real time, unsentimentally, both nationally and within single seats.

5. Accurate voter ID and preparations to get out the vote (GOTV) will be key. Many traditional Tory activists are discouraged from campaigning by the nastiness of their own offer, and the tie up with Nigel Farage. Their campaign looks heavily digital – our strength is in human connections.

6. Be proud to be Labour. We’re a mass party rooted in every community. The Tory strategy is to stigmatise us – it’s not working because our ordinary working class members are our secret weapon.

7. Accept that some voters are already making tactical decisions in response to the Farage-Johnson pact. And there will be more towards the end. Make sure they know that if they lend us their vote to stop a far-right government there will be humility from us in return. If a Green or Lib Dem candidate stands down, say a public thank you and keep saying it.

8. Align the ground war with the air war. Over the last week, it has been about NHS waiting times and free broadband. As a news journalist, I know it takes three to four days for any big news to clarify into people’s minds – don’t move on until the big issues have “landed” on the doorstep.

9. Focus your time online effectively. We have to be our own media, so after campaigning tell everyone in your social media network what’s come up, spread the party’s key messages in your own words – with selfies, videos, posts. One genuine short video to sent to 50 friends is worth five retweets of a Jeremy Corbyn meme – but keep RT-ing as well!

10. Our campaign is focused on a mix of defensive marginals and offensive ones. It’s not just about taking new seats: just like in warfare, the resolute defence of a place where our opponent is wasting huge resources trying to capture can be a route to victory.

Finally, remember the final phase of this campaign will be a frenzy of Tory lies, amplified by the media. The feeling that “We’re being lied to…” is one of the strongest reflexes in working class life going back generations. I think if we can win the battle for credibility and truth now, that’s a great investment for moment the fake news factory goes into overdrive.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 08:34 AM

Wise words from Paul, Steve. We need to make as much as a can of his point about being lied to as often as we can. Here is a reminder of the link I posted earlier

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:02 AM

Oh dear, It all seems to be going Pete Tong for the fat, loud-mouth Russian collaborator currently posing as our Prime Minister.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:47 AM

Even the very first point of Paul Mason's guide looks wrong:
1. Win the battle for credibility over tax and spend. Explain why borrowing to spend money on long term infrastructure is the only way to rebuild our country.
If borrowing to spend is the way forward, that does not support a call for a regime of tax and spend. He is carefully explaining the fallacy of his own message.

Of course, if he meant that to be two separate messages he could have separated the points out. But it is not clear that that was his intention.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1195805054588084224

Oh Dear compos losing it!
45% of the toffs will vote Tory.
45% of the blue collars will vote Tory

Voting intent
Conservative 45%
Labour 30$
Compo's theme toon


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM

There is nothing clashing in Paul Mason's first point. You can raise money both by raising taxes, or at least not making rash promises to cut taxes, and by borrowing. Interest rates for government borrowing are very low and there is plenty of scope for borrowing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:27 PM

I agree Nigel's point seems wide of the mark. Saying you are borrowing to invest in no way prohibits you from using money raised via taxation towards that investment as well. It may be that he is interpreting the word 'only' to apply to the means of funding, rather than it being the achievement of the desired end, but that would need a pretty determinedly wrongheaded approach to understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:59 PM

my apologies, Nigel. In responding to Steve I ended up referring to you in the third person. I should not do that.

Perhaps you would want to elaborate on whether you regarded the word 'only' to refer to the means of funding the investments?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

His 'only' seems to be a statement that borrowing is the 'only' way to rebuild the country. That does not seem to support the first half of the bullet point being to Win the battle for credibility over tax and spend. .
Part of the problems currently with the NHS (among others) was the idea that new hospitals could be built by getting the health service to put itself into long term (debt) repayments which should have been the governments responsibility, but were a method of keeping the spending off the budget sheet.
A new Labour government, if we ever get one, could prove to be more fiscally responsible than those which have gone before. But I believe in the basis "Fool me once . . ."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM

I wonder how many times you think Cameron with his ill-starred referendum, May with her strong and stable government and Johnson with his litany of lies have fooled you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:17 PM

As I said, Nigel, I don't that interpretation is solid. The only way I could afford my house was to take out a mortgage. But there was also a lot of money from elsewhere as a deposit. To me, that 'only' referred to the objective (in my case, getting the house.) It did not imply the only funding that went into the house was what I borrowed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:50 AM

Peter Oborne on Johnson’s lies. As Mark Twain said, “It’s easier to fool people than convince them they’ve been fooled”.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:52 AM

Well done, DMcG! It’s so refreshing to see Nigel out-Nigelled! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

The chairman of Keith Vaz’s Leicester East Constituency Labour Party, Councillor John Thomas has written to Jennie Formby, the party’s General Secretary, cancelling his membership of the Labour Party after 30 years and resigning as the chairman of the Leicester East CLP.
An Extract:
    “This is great disappointment to me, realising that I have spent over 30 years of my life working for a party that I now know that I have nothing in common with. This is not the party I joined, the party for decent working people. I can no longer follow the clown that leads the Labour Party, he is heavily influenced by the Trotskyite Len McCluskey and is now as the Hoki Coki leader, in out, and shake it all about he has turned this great party into a laughing stock.

    Please cancel the direct debit made in favour of your party by me and return all money’s taken by you through Leicester City Council Labour Group to me. I am also shocked that you have chosen a candidate who is a Councillor in Jeremy Corbyn’s Islington CLP to be the Labour Candidate for Leicester East for the next General Election. Where is the democracy in all this? It is a fix and a disgrace.”


Another one bites the dust!(The full story at guido, of course)
It looks like he has taken some of my story lines as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM

"Another one bites the dust!"
ANOTHER HOW MANY BITE THE DUST - (TOO MANY TO COUNT)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:08 AM

Well done yerself, John, for beating me to it by linking to that Oborne piece. Of all the people to take Bozo to pieces! Who'd have thunk it!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Workingtonman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

not much of a story though, steve? not compared to some bloke in the midlands leaving the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:24 AM

Vaz has been a running sore for decades in Labour and I for one am glad to see the back of him. He's been mired in all sorts of murky business and has often been found wanting. Don't wanna get sued, or tarnish anyone with darkly unsupported insinuations, but a quick reading of his biography on wiki will sum the bugger up for you. He's one of those politicians who thinks that the Westminster bubble immunises him from criticism. Well he's recently found out that someone has pricked his personal bubble and such immunity ain't the case. He'll whine for a bit and try his best to hand this to the Tories (a disease among the ranks of the Labour disaffected, unfortunately). I wish him a long, happy and silent retirement.

But yes, it's another sideshow that I'm sure a Tory or two will think they can make hay from. Never fear, there are plenty like him in their own ranks. Now let's concentrate on the best interests of this country in this election campaign. Read the Oborne piece, good people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:48 AM

Good to see the wee crankie and libdumbs lost their court case to clutter up the airwaves with their election drivel in the Boris-Corbyn head to head debate on ITV.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

Funny how the mainstream media scream about ‘Labour Antisemitism’, yet Tory Antisemitism goes unreported .


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 03:28 PM

Backwoodsman:
"This story broke in the Jewish press an entire day ago". Maybe the main newspapers haven't reported it because it is NOT news. The quote is from something Amjad Bashir said in 2014 in the European Parliament, when he was a UKIP MEP.
Perhaps, if this had been brought up during the recent selection process, he would not now be standing as a Conservative. But 'news' it certainly is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM

I am sure each side will have different views about who won the ITV debate, but it seemed to me Johnson said very little beyond "Get Brexit Done" and "Corbyn can't say if he would campaign for leave or remain." And he shoe-horned these in whatever the question was. When challenged about personal integrity he seemed unable to take on the meaning of 'personal' however often he was redirected to it. And he continually overran in his answers and the chair had a lot of problem stopping him.

As could be anticipated, Corbyn looked weakest when he was trying to explain the party line on Brexit. I am afraid many people people are unable or unwilling to comprehend an answer more complex than 'Leave' or 'Remain'. So having a more subtle stance is always going to look bad, and it did.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:03 PM

i have not seen the debate ,but the labour party stance is clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:06 PM

I wonder what is so difficult to understand about, “We will give the electorate a choice between the new deal which we will negotiate, and remaining in the EU - whichever they choose, that’s what we will do”.

Seems absolutely unequivocal to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:18 PM

Yes, it is clear.

But there are those who are determined will not accept that clarity. Hence Johnson's insistence that Corbyn must say he is for leave or remain. He knows there are a lot of people who can be persuaded anything other than one of those is avoidance.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:09 PM

Former UKIP now Tory candidate Amjad Bashir has been suspended as the party’s candidate in Leeds North East over comments he made as an MEP claiming British Jews return from Israel having been “brainwashed”
From Guido of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM

ONE DOWN - MANY THOUSANDS MORE TO GO -- COMMON SENSE ANFD DECENCY OF COURSE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:55 PM

Corbyn persistently refused to answer the unreasonable question about whether he would campaign for remain or leave in a second referendum campaign. That looked weak, but in fact his stance is responsible and honest. In the (unlikely) event of his obtaining a working majority, he has promised to negotiate a new deal with the EU. He doesn't know whether the EU will negotiate one at all (meaning he could well be stuck with Johnson's), or would give the process enough time, or whether they will be inclined to negotiate for a much softer brexit than Johnson managed (I suspect that they would, especially if Corbyn asks for a customs union and closer alignment with the single market). The EU could well cut up rough over free movement. All sorts of things. So who knows what a deal would look like? Which is why the question is unreasonable.

And there are faint echoes here of Cameron calling a referendum then campaigning for it to "fail"...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:28 PM

(meaning he could well be stuck with Johnson's)

I am not sure about that. In order to get a deal done in three months then he has to work from something that exists already. I suspect he would start from May's deal, and negotiate on the Political Declaration section. We know Labour have had discussions in the past, and from the timing this would have been based on May's deal. We also know the EU indicated that some of Labour's proposed changes to the declaration would be acceptable in principle. Since May's deal is closer to what Labour want than Johnson's, I think it unlikely he would want to use Johnson's as the starting point.

The only other option which stands a chance of being agreed in three months takes Norway as a starting point, but that has not had the intense scrutiny that May's deal had, so I don't think it a likely basis.

I agree with all the rest of your comments, though, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM

Quite right, DMcG. But May's deal does have that backstop... It would be a starting point, but to get rid of the backstop he'd need a customs union.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM

"but in fact his stance is responsible and honest."
Couldn't agree more
He has committed himself to dealing with the result of the referendum by allowing the people to confirm it
He could have just ignored it as the Lib Dems have
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM

Wonder what the Greased Albino Piglet and his fellow liars are afraid of?

The only large-circulation newspaper that isn't running wall-to-wall Tory propaganda stories is banned from their 'battle bus'. Makes me wonder exactly what it is they feel they need to hide (other than everything we already know about)?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM

It seems that there are no depths the Tories refuse to sink to in their Fake Propaganda campaign.

I'm really not interested in their opinions about Labour policies, I want to hear how the Tories themselves are proposing to make the lives of myself, my family, and every other ordinary citizen of the UK, better after 12th December, 2019. I wonder why we're not hearing about that? Could it be that they have Sweet Fuck All to offer?

They really are The Nasty Party. A truly filthy bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM

Quite an important comment reported in the Guardian:

=====
The EU is "open to" Labour's Brexitpolicy of renegotiating the Brexit agreement to include a customs union and single market membership, Leo Varadkar has said.

Asked about the Labour manifesto the Irish leader told public broadcaster RTE that the bloc would be "very happy" with sitting down with "whoever is prime minister" and that the opposition's policy would not be a problem.

======

No doubt that will be reported widely. Who knows, maybe even Guido will mention it
...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:27 PM

Tory dirty tricks abound. Relabeled their Twitter account 'Factcheck' and have now created a fake Labour website called https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/ and are paying Google to promote it. I do hope it backfires on them


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM

He lied in his teeth yesterday about how much we'd get from his national insurance proposals. He said five hundred, the real benefit would be eighty-five. It seems that blatant and repetitive lying has no consequences any more. That's very depressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM

That website is a disgrace. It is blatantly intended to deceive.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM

Two staunch Tories in the office today were saying they thought the wizzy website scheme might backfire. It is one thing for opponents to say the Tories are untrustworthy but another to see something that you think is.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:13 PM

It also transpired that the Tories tried to infiltrate the Labour List website by trying to buy advertising space, a move blocked by Labour List.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

Well at least somebody’s taking revenge on the Tories....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:45 PM

Well, I'd rather see us taking the high road. :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:10 PM

At least that one is funny and blatantly fake, Steve. Well, I found it funny anyway :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

Of course its going to blow up and possibly backfire.
People are sick of phishing expeditions that lie cheat and steal.
What some call a dirty trick is the aberration of human consciousness called 'perception is reality' which goes back to our prehistoric roots. If it looks true and is repeated enough people start to believe it is true. Ancient Egyptians come to mind. Add some grand architecture with pictures of a dog's head on a human body and poof you'll see you can fool most people most of the time. The great lie is amazingly durable.

The CIA used this ruse, the US President lives by it and the Russians really love it.

Common sense is seeing past the perception and embracing the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM

Agreed, Dave, but I'm not sure we need to be doing it. Jeremy wiped out the Tory majority last time by staying calm, putting his policies forward and refusing to partake in dog fights. He knows that the provocation is assertively there, but he refuses to indulge it. Let's stay high!


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