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The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,Kenny 16 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 01:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 16 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM
Howard Jones 16 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM
Allan Conn 16 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,HiLo 16 Oct 19 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 16 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 11:59 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 11:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Peter 16 Oct 19 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Observer 16 Oct 19 - 10:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 19 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Starship 16 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 16 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Starship 16 Oct 19 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 08:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM
The Sandman 16 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,HiLo 16 Oct 19 - 02:33 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 02:26 AM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Oct 19 - 06:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Oct 19 - 06:27 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM
Jack Campin 15 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Oct 19 - 05:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM
Bonzo3legs 15 Oct 19 - 04:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Oct 19 - 04:01 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Oct 19 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Kenny
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM

"It would seem that those who turn up to play at the normal club nights only actually want to hear themselves and do not seem to be interested in learning or improving."
I see you've been to Aberdeen :)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:47 PM

we had some rats under our shed - so we called in the rat man.

theres loads of food in the garden - why do you think they push it by going so close to the house, I asked the rat man.

Warmth, said the ratman.

That's really sad...just warmth, that's all they want?

Yes indeed, said the ratman, still they have have their place in nature, and its not under your shed.

I just think from the way you go on JIm - maybe we've been under your shed too long.
Perhaps we shouldn't call folk clubs, the sessions that house us pesky Beatles strumming gits. The problem, as I've said,will be that the great unwashed think Nowhere Man is a folksong - abd you wull have to politely direct them to our un-folk session, if they penetrate your aura.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM

.. so does 'eavy metal...

..and the various sub genres can get very nasty with each other..

I saw an arm get broken at the Hammersmith Odeon...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM

I don't kow much about jazz (although I know what I like!)but a quick Google of "jazz controversies" gives a set of results that suggest that the jazz world has similar issues.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM

I agree that Cottingham Folk Festival is stretching the boundaries and doesn't look like something I'd choose to go to. At the other extreme, another part of Yorkshire is the location for a small traditional music gathering (it's too small to call a festival) which has a strong focus on both traditional songs and music. Capacity is limited so I won't give too much away.

My point is there is something for everyone. And while it's not to my taste, the line-up at Cottingham might attract someone who is then exposed to traditional music for the first time. We all had to start somewhere.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM

Re the comments from WAV about Celtic Connections. With the festival you get exactly what is stated on the tin. It does not claim to be a festival only for Scottish or any kind of wider Celtic folk music. Is it just this wee musical part of the world making connections with the rest of the world. It states on its website that the festival is over 300 events across "multiple genres of music" and it lists the type of genres as being Folk, Trad, World, Indie, Americana, Jazz&Soul, Gaelic, Blues, orchestral, rock&pop, fusion - plus various other genres. It does not claim to be narrow in outlook as WAV seemingly woud like it to be.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM

Some interesting names at Cottingham, Cap'n! I would say though that the names do not give us an indication of what the artists are going to perform and how they will perform it. Wilco Johnson, for instance, is a very talented blues guitarist. Should the blues be excluded from folk festivals? Maybe Steve Harley does a very passable famous flower of serving men or Sophie Ellis-Bextor plays melodion. I dunno! :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM

Jim - just having a matey piss-take at the dominant intolerant acoustic only orthodoxy...

How many years is it since Dylan was heckled "Judas"...???

It was certainly long ago in a past century...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:27 PM

Well, classical music is often treated with contempt, as are those who enjoy it..elitists, snobs, singers can'e sing..etc. There have been a number of threads here denigrating classical music;not to mention threads which denigrate, pop, country and almost anything American...but it's ok because I know you are tolerant of diversity....except in taste!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM

"electric amplified Trad folk only."
A contradiction in terms, for a start, but what yuo are saying is, while you object to others confining themselves to a specific type of music, you are quite happy to put restrictions on your own
Yeah well - that sounds reasonable to some, I'm sure!
Yours list doesn't even approach asking that clubs calling themselves 'folk' commit themselves to presenting a music that lives up to that description
I ask would it be acceptable if Jazz or Classical music were treated with the same disregard and contempt?
Answer comes there none
Has nobody the balls to address the damage that has been created by deciding that folk doesn't mean anything any more ?
Just time-filling here anyway
I'm off to Belfast tomorrow to spend a few days with 70 odd others (I understand) who have no problem understanding a term that has been with us as long as 'folk' has
I hope it'll lift some of the gloom
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM

"you wouldn't do what you do to any other form of music and seem quite happy to drive the people's music into further obscurity"

I have a great deal of sympathy with your point here Jim. I share this example of the line-ups of a local 'folk' festival over the last few years:

https://cottinghamfolkfestival.co.uk/?page_id=2405


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:59 AM

Just a reminder other views exist...

I feel too excluded from Acoustic club nights...

If I ran a folk club it would be a strict policy of electric amplified Trad folk only.

Possible exceptions at the discretion of the club committee [me]:

because I do like reed & pipe organs, and loud abrasive acoustic instruments like bagpipes and hurdy gurdys..

as long as they stick to playing drones..............

Ok.. flutes and other wind instruments may be eligable..

Sax players will be banned for life if they smuggle in jazz improv phrasing...

That's a folk club I'd happily go to...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:48 AM

"Beatle strumming gits to go away from your window of opportunity for trad sounding"
I'd have thought if that's what you do you're not going to get too many genuine Beatles fans queuing up outside folk song club Al
You might actually try folk song Al - you might like it
Otherwise you're flying under false colours
Can't really see that that's unreasonable or purist - just common sense and honesty
It's dishonest to keep repeating that people are calling for a folk-only club when that isn't the case - there's far too much dishonesty surrounding this argument as it is
The words you chose were "trad-only" - you are the only one to use them as as far as I can see
I've never got a reply to my suggestion that you wouldn't do what you do to any other form of music and seem quite happy to drive the people's music into further obscurity
"I don't like it so I don't see why I should give anybody else a chance to" seems a bit mean to me
There you go - it takes all sorts
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:27 AM

No Jim, i was saying - why not make it clear you want us pesky Beatle strumming gits to go away from your window of opportunity for trad sounding , or even trad singing music


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:15 AM

I have seen the same issues as Observer has where regular floor singers stay away from guest nights.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

Suits me Starry
I thought it was one of those "which would you rather be or a wasp" questions
" “it means just what I choose it to mean"
When there is a definition that seems as silly as it is
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:26 AM

It depends whether you believe that guest booking folk clubs help to raise standard of performance

Well you'd think it would wouldn't you. I really do get where you are coming from on this Sandman. But from personal experience some have observed that the "Folk Club" I regularly attend, which runs every two weeks and puts on every year at least six Guest nights, it runs two festivals and puts on three concert nights all involving professional artists and good local performers, the following really odd pattern involving what crowd turns up to what.

Normal Club nights - We get a regular group turning up to play. Standard not really all that great and mostly mediocre 50s, 60s and 70s pop songs. Once in a while we get some quality nights with great singing but those are few and far between.

Guest Nights - Moderately to well attended by a few who turn up at the normal club nights with the bulk made up of people who do not attend normal club nights. The players who turn up at the normal nights rarely if ever tutn up and these would be the people who would benefit from seeing how it should be done.

Concerts - two Fund raisers and one memorial - Same crowd as for Guest nights.

Festivals - Draw in lots of visitors and players all concerts well supported and three sessions running all the time, again the players who regularly attend the normal club nights are nowhere to be seen.

It would seem that those who turn up to play at the normal club nights only actually want to hear themselves and do not seem to be interested in learning or improving.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:13 AM

Oh, the number of times I have used that Humpty quote on this forum!

Glad it's not just me :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM

Last post was me in response to Jim. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM

A few years back I had a discussion with a club owner who was promoting his business as folk. The music that was put on once a week was on a few occasions folk. However, I asked why there were people showing up with amplifiers and electronic machines: guitars, basses, trap sets, etc. I asked how 'de blues' or 'c+w' music was folk. How rockish songwriter stuff was folk. He admitted he didn't know what else to call it, so folk in his world was juat a catch-all name that had no real meaning to either the music his club presented or the people/groups he booked. I left the conversation saying 'You can call a fish a dog . . .' Inevitably it boils down to that old saw from Lewis Carroll: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

"Calling a fish a dog will not make the fish bark".
Not even a dog-fish ?
Don't really understand that Starry !


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:34 AM

Calling a fish a dog will not make the fish bark.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM

`"If you want to have a strictly trad policy - you put it in the title of your club."
Has anybody ever suggested this Al ?
If not, why raise it
I've haven't been to a strictly trad club for at leas thirty years and I never went back
A strictly trad policy would turn the revival into a museum - I've got sore fingers typing that
If woe mean club that specialised in a trad sound, that's a different matter

You appear to be suggesting what others have before you - if you wand folk besed folk clubs - piss off somewhere else   
As an alterinative, why nor identify folk clubs that have nothing to do with folk song or style 'Folkeokies' or simply 'Anything Goes" - it would be far more honest and would produce a far less hit-and-miss situation

It gets more and more like Brexit - "we do the damage, you make the sacrifices and compromise"
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:36 AM

Thinking back, if you ask Dave Sutherland - he will tell you - I very rarely darkened the door of his club. The guest list of the Tiger in Long Eaton informed anyone of any intelligence, that an act like mine would have been ten minutes of pain for his audience.

I think I only went there when Brian Peters was playing, and I knew him cos we'd done a few things with him before and regarded him as a mate.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM

Surely the answer is quite simple.

If you want to have a strictly trad policy - you put it in the title of your club.

If you want to have singers and poets and whatever of any sort turn up and play - put that in the title of your club.

No one wants to listen to stuff they don't like.

If you feel the situation has come to this crisis point, wouldn't this solve the problem?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

Sandman. By way of a contrast do you think folk is as vibrant in your part of west Cork as 20/25 years ago?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM

With respect Dick
Guest standards should never be a measure of club standards
If the level of resident performances cannot be raised and new people be drawn in, you may as well fold your tent and just run concerts
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM

It depends whether you believe that guest booking folk clubs help to raise standard of [performance,if one does believe this then one must be concerned at the diminishing number of guest booking folk clubs in the uk.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:24 AM

"I know a lot of right leaning, caring people "
So do I
People are people everywhere apart from and often despite their politics
In the end you have to judge all politics by the overall objectives of their philosophies
I have difficulties in getting my head around politics based on conserving a grossly unequal and predatory society
I no longer consider myself just left, as I once did - I think I am a social humanist and in order to have got here I find I haven't had to shed too many of my early beliefs (some maybe)
Doesn't mean I have become more tolerant, mind - heaven forfend :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:33 AM

I know a lot of right leaning, caring people, and they are folkies too.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:26 AM

"Personally I don't believe we have any control about the songs or styles that inspire us to creativity."
Of course we don't - we use what we know
What is unique about folk songs, in my opinion, is their connection with natural speech - they turn spoken or thought-about experiences into verse - the old singers sang them as near as they possibly could to how they would have spoken them
They tend to be streams of consciousness rather than self consciously composed verse (the best of them do anyway).
That's how they appear to me, I believe that's why so many of MacColl's songs spread as far as they did and have lasted as long as they have
Ewan hardly ever visited Ireland, yet most of his songs on Ireland sound Irish; 'Indeed I Do', 'Tunnel Tigers', 'New Rocks of Bawn', 'Rambler From Clare', 'Farewell too Ireland', 'Come Me Little Son'.... all made from interviews with Irish people
I can't thing os another song form that allows you to do that to the extent folk form does.

"Jim, I too have washed my hands of below the line due to bigotry there"
I have found isolated spots of bigotry and I know Irish people who won't post to this forum because of the little there is; I believe we've lost Asians in the past
The problem below the line is that so much is about politics, and that causes trouble everywhere - Ive been into pubs with signs over the counter   saying "no religion, no sport, no politics" - especially in Liverpool
"Bigotry", doesn't wash for me - try "over-enthusiasm"

"Immigration is simply travel and resettlement - nothing more. It is usually of immense benefit to the receiving area/country and should be seen as such."
That should be carved in stone and displayed in every town square in Little England - not understanding that fact has placed a huge question mark over the future of our country - even society as a whole

PFR
I see now that you weren't referring to me - my sincere apologies for thinking you were - should have known better
I confess I am grateful for my own mistake - another excuse to say what I believe about folk song - "every little helps" as Tesco chants out interminably
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM

Ouch! A bit harsh but I recognise some truth in that - though most folkies I know are thankfully left leaning caring people.

Can we return to the original subject now please and not descend into arguments about capitalism and immigration. This is one place I would prefer to get away from the political discussions I usually find myself being drawn in to! Politics is very relevant to folk music of course and I think it is shameful the way the folk scene appears to have almost completely ignored one of our greatest songwriters Robb Johnson so I think discussion of the different approaches of clubs and festivals to political songwriters is relevant but as please keep it friendly - unless of course anyone makes openly racist or sexist comments in which case they deserve both barrels!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:57 PM

Nationalist Folk Club


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:27 PM

Personally I don't believe we have any control about the songs or styles that inspire us to creativity.

Of course I did consider being the voice of the midlands folkscene, a sort of Lincolnshire Mike Harding - when I was starting out.

It was the smart move at the time of the great traddy purge in the 1970's - a time when the traddies were in the ascendant. Their electro groups were in the charts. they sneered loudly at at any American influenced or even American songwriter. And really they did for the for the folk clubs what Thomas Cromwell did for the monastries, as the vast majority of people at the time were there to hear American based material.

However the thought of realligning my entire sensibility to fit in with some ignoramus view of folk music was anathema to me - and it still is.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM

Disagree, CP (people - often the better off - don't emigrate to England for the sunshine and, if from South Asian or African nations, often suffer rickets), but we should not drift further from the thread's topic, I think you will agree.

I'm not one, but I hope some of the session musicians (and I have enjoyed quite a few at the Cumberland Arms in Newcastle, e.g.) come on and introduce you to some of the English tunes that are not so "over simple in rhythm and melody and too predictable".


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM

well, Jim, I too have washed my hands of below the line due to bigotry there. however, I find, for the most part, one can discuss ethnic and cultural music in the rather better atmosphere up here. I would very much enjoy a thread on international, intercultural music..many of us ,I think, would quite enjoy that, yes .


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM

Don't confuse economic migration - what working people do to survive and/or better themselves, with capitalism. Capitalism is about the rich exploiting the poor by failing to pay them in accordance with the full value of their labour in order to make the rich richer.

Immigration is simply travel and resettlement - nothing more. It is usually of immense benefit to the receiving area/country and should be seen as such.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

An example of a folk event that is slowly circling the drain with stultifying uniformity:

Scottish Fiddle Festival

It's always been ethnically exclusive, a spinoff of the moribund "Celtic music" idea expanded to include the equally Aryan traditions of Scandinavia and North America. Coffee-coloured or black violin traditions don't get a look in, even for such au lait varieties as Greek or Romanian fiddling.

Most of the people you'll see on that billing are unknown outside Edinburgh. Probably they don't have the money to do anything different now - Rhiannon Giddens would be way over budget - but Abdo Dagher or Aurel Mandache wouldn't exactly have broken the bank when they were alive, and they'd have brought musical ideas that would have been new and inspirational to almost everybody participating.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:56 PM

"Of course the Indian curry we now consider authentic is usually not made by Indians but Bangladeshis and is very different to the original Asian preparations - that's tradition for you!" (CP)...or is it economic/CAPITALIST immigration?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:08 PM

WV: If you went to Celtic Connections you would find masses of people interested in the development of, not only their own traditions, but those of others too. Traditions by their very nature will change and develop over time and are subject to influence. If it doesn't change it is not a tradition it is simply a repeated process.

As regards English trad music (not songs), I find too much of it to be over simple in rhythm and melody and too predictable. There are notable exceptions of course, eg Playford. I'm guessing here, but perhaps we English have not enjoyed the same intense culture of social dance that say the Irish and Scots have. That same dance culture still exists in those places as it does in 'Celtically Connected' places eg Canada and Louisianna. ( I'm very sure someone will correct me here).

Regarding curry, I love the stuff but not with pizza. Of course the Indian curry we now consider authentic is usually not made by Indians but Bangladeshis and is very different to the original Asian preparations - that's tradition for you!

I think it's worth remembering the words of that great mixer of cultures, Dave Swarbrick on taking liberties with the tradition - "It's ok, the music won't mind!"


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

Captain Swing: the last time I tuned into Celtic Connections it was more like "Curious Connections"- reinforced by your words.

And, yes, if you had read my post more carefully, we would agree on trad purity but we can keep leaning toward our own traditional ways - being impressed by how our own forebears did things, which is largely how traditions have survived (along with National Treasures in Japan).

Very sadly, to many in England now, their culture is dipping a pizza in a curry, after a night of American pop, and before fanatically supporting a World 11 in a premier league/farce.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM

You too then Bonzo! I'm hooked :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:26 PM

Aha - Viking sponsors early evenings on ITV...………………………………………….3!!!!!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM

Daft as I may be, I have taken to watching reruns of detective programs on ITV3 at 8. Tonight it is Midsomer Murders. They have just changed from John Nettles to Neil Dudgeon.

You know, when I watch Midsomer Murders, I expect to see John Nettles. Not this new fangled Dudgeon bloke. Just who is who defines what a Barnaby should be anyway...

:D


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:01 PM

Sorry, the last message was from me.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM

WV - I don't think there is such a thing as trad purity and it's certainly not something I would hold as desirable. Traditions are by nature impure.

If traditions were pure there would be, for example:

no Morris dancing in England
no bagpipes in Scotland
no banjos in America or Ireland (or anywhere else other than Africa).

Also:
Shetland music without the Scandinavian influences would not be Shetland music as we know it.
Northumbrian music without the influences of Irish and Scottish music would not be as rich.
Cajun, French-Canadian, Cape-Breton, Zydeco, would all not exist.
Bluegrass would not exist.

I'd be very surprised if you could give an example of a pure musical tradition.

One of the best musical experiences that I have had was at a concert about 2yrs ago at the Celtic Connections festival in Glasgow. The last set of (Celtic) tunes involved all of the acts that had performed. There were about 60 people on stage from the all four countries of the UK, from Ireland, from many European countries, from Africa, from Asia, from America and Canada. The instruments being played were equally as diverse. The performers had only one afternoon to rehearse and most had never met each other before. The performance was a dynamic and joyful collaboration mixing rhythms, harmonies and counter melodies. Now this was ('nice') multiculturalism WV. This created happiness and friendship and brought people together. And at no time were any traditional cultures harmed in the process.

Seeking 'trad purity', apart from being an impossible mission, also seeks to set people apart from each other, highlight differences rather than commonality, divide rather than include and promote intolerance. All in all not very useful.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:45 PM

It's positive nationalism, Big Al, from someone who loves our world/our UN being multicultural as much as anyone.

Joe G - would be nice to see the English cittern (rather than the Spanish guitar getting a guernsey; apparently, a couple of centuries ago, there was one in almost every barber shop and tavern in England; I have seen Jez Lowe play one but, sadly, that is all...more on English Instruments

Captain Swing - are you sure there is not enough variety and interest WITHIN the English tradition? Without reaching trad purity, you could at least lean toward your own culture as much as possible - just as many Buddhist strive for nirvana - and, thus, help keep our world nice and multicultural.

E.g., my repertoire introduced with a tenor recorder/English flute and sung either unaccompanied or with the melody doubled on keyboards - NOT pure English but leaning well toward an aspect of my own good culture.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM

"Jim - Eh ..?? wasn't even thinking about you when I posted that..."
Sorry P - getting touchy in my old age
I'll look later - Holby City and The Troubles calls - might need the services of the first before long

Joe
"I agree a new thread on music from across the world would be good."
Amen a thousand times
The tragedy of this forum is that (I am told) the few Moslems that once posted were driven off by Islamophobia - I have Irish friends who washed their hands of the site for the same reason
If It's of any interest, I havve care of a huge number of international albums - with notes, and radio programmes on international music from some of the best reseachers (Levy, Battachara etc)
If anybody is looking for anything in aprticular, please let me know - if anybody wants them all they will have to send me a sizeable hard drive
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:12 PM

I agree a new thread on music from across the world would be good.

As you'll not from my crossed posting I'm a fan too and would be happy to give some recommendations and receive some as well :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

Thanks PFR...your youtube drifting seems a lot like mine..all over the place. Watched a chap last night who was playing two guitars at once, and playing them well.
I would be very interested in learning more about international music Vic. Perhaps a thread on that would be of interest to others as well.


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