mudcat.org: The current state of folk music in UK
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43]


The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,Derrick 02 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 12:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 11:14 AM
r.padgett 02 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Starship 02 Nov 19 - 10:41 AM
Dave Hanson 02 Nov 19 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Starship 02 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM
Jack Campin 02 Nov 19 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 06:29 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 05:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 03:55 AM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 10:14 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 10:04 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 09:21 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 09:06 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:59 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:53 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Nov 19 - 08:44 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:37 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 07:23 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 07:08 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 07:06 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 07:01 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:53 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM

Neither shop is closed.

Justgoogle hobgoblin music and free reed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM

Jack: I am sorry you seem to have missed the context for my comments on Lloyd. It has been alleged that Lloyd never did anything political. It seems plain to me that this is incorrect, and I quoted Gammon in part to back up my view that he was political and did political things.

I do not think that at any point in my post do I dismiss Marxist thinking, by the way. Nor do I claim that Lloyd sought to conceal his own Marxism.

I have read enough about the 'tinkering' that Lloyd did to come to a view that he is not entirely reliable as an authority. Some of this may have been politically motivated, some mainly due to his own tendency to 'improve' the material he had. One thing he says in his book on folk song is that literacy can be an advantage and lead to better songs, and I sometimes wonder whether he came to this view on the basis of his own 'improvements'.

This leads in to my other point that I disagree that 'research' into folk song is some sort of cumulative enterprise, a more and more business so that if one rejects or critiques or contextualises the works of the past one is somehow subtracting from the accrued total.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM

btw.. Hobgoblin shops closed...???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM

Jim - your personal overview present much that can at the same time be agreed and disagreeed with...???

Pint glass half empty, or half full...????

Perplexing times...


Personally I'm considering a bit more optimistic outlook for the future of UK folk music post 2019 ...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:22 PM

"The folk club scene, or the wider folk scene...????"
The wider folk scene
THe club audiences went down the clubs began to disappear, shops like Hobgoblin ad Free Reed closed, long term gmagazines like Folk Review ceased to exist and the labels dwindled to a few
Topic - the label based on producing traditional-based material along with The Living Tradition and Greentrax are among the few survivors
'Many more' and 'folk music' are moot descriptions of much that goes on on the net as far as I can see, but, even if that were true, it indicates that folk as become a spectator rather than a participatory activity
We are back to having to take what we are given, like we were in the fifties
How good is that
That's not progress - that's loss of creative opportunity
Quite honestly, it depresses te to see the mass alienation that has taken place thanks to mobile phones and the internet - communication by isolation (and that doesn't begin to describe the decline of literary skills and the use of language usage
We're turning our kids into illiterate, uncommunicative loners via a media that is rapidly becoming a threat to their personal safety and well-being
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:03 PM

"That's what began to happen at the end of the eighties and the scene hass never recovered"

Jim - but what scene exactly, has never recovered...???

The folk club scene, or the wider folk scene...????


Club centric folkies seem to disagree on whether to lament or celebrate in 2019 UK..

..and many folkies at mudcat enjoy folk music from far more diverse sources than ever before in 2019 UK...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM

It stands to sense to me that if you cease to guarantee to give an audience what they expect based oon 'what it says on the label' people will stop coming
That's what began to happen at the end of the eighties and the scene hass never recovered
Liverpool's 'Hustler' solution using the jacks door used to sort out pain-in-the-arse MCs quick enough without losing too many audience members
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM

Mmmm - not sure about that Ray - the club where I suffered that closed many years ago - the ones I have been to more recently stick to the two or three floor spots. I can imagine a lot of people like myself would never go back there - there were four of us there that night so they lost four potential customers for future gigs

Another issue can be MC's hogging the limelight - this very rarely happens and most club MCs are excellent in my experience but I do know of one who was alienating the audience by insisting on performing a couple of songs each half preventing other (almost always always better) floor singers performing - most nights half of the audience were out in the bar for a good portion of the night to avoid him. The club dealt with this after one particularly bad episode but I'd suggest that such issues, combined with the greater number of alternative sources of music and the loss of venues, has as much to do with the loss of clubs as does Jim's concerns about folk music 'not being heard' at them


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 11:14 AM

"Nice offer and I'll likely take you up on it, Jim. Thanks
I'm away for a few days from tomorrow - off to Dublin to see the new Ken Loach and listen to some wonderful new singers at The Cobblestone - might even fit in some piping while we're there
If any non-member would like to contact me with an e-mail address I hope Dave or someone else who has mine will pass it on

"a dozen mediocre or worse floor singers over the course of the evening"
I see nothing to dispute here Joe - I share your frustration
It really doesn't have to be like that and it never was a major problem - the general feeling used to be that, if you sang in public you needed to put in the basic work first - that seems to have gone by the board
Folk singing has always been the pursuit of amateurs (in Britain anyway) the songs weer sung, adapted and probably created by fishermen, farmers mill-workers, soldiers, sailors.... they was not a weakness - it is what makes them unique
Any club that couldn't hold its own without guests wa, in my opinion, doomed to be little more than mini-concerts for stars and passive bums-on seats - indistinguishable from manufactured entertainment
I often used to skip guests because I could buy their albums
Seeing a group of friends and associates pull off a good evening without outside assistance was as good as it got (almost) - being part of such an evening left you walking on air till the next time
I used to get a buzz from hearing some of our top guests saying what a great night they had had being part of these nights
It was interesting when some of London's best Irish musicians used to come and sit quietly at the back because they ahd enjoyed being a guest - beats all the best write-ups
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM

Yes as I believe I mentioned earlier (somewhere) clubs' support is often from regular singers of whatever ability ~ the need to have a lot of floor singers is sometimes necessary

Concerts are a different matter

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM

Hi Dave - well you are partly correct - I generally do prefer modern songs that are written about current day or relatively recent issues eg - to name some better known contemporary folk singers - the songs of John Tams, Jez Lowe, Joe Solo, Steve Knightley, Reg Meuross etc

Where you are incorrect though is that I certainly don't dislike traditional songs especially those that relate to urban working life and sea songs. My earliest experience of folk music was very much focussed around mining songs and shanties as they were very commonly sung at Hartlepool Folk Club. I have a particular passion for the songs of Tommy Armstrong - I assume his songs would class as traditional? The only songs I would say I am not keen on (again generalising massively) are those of a more rural nature - especially if they have fol de lol refrains in them! I mentioned earlier that Jim Moray has released a CD of traditional material and I enjoyed his concert at Musicport where he performed almost exclusively traditional songs. I am also a fan of Jon Boden's Folk Song a Day. I particularly enjoy York based Joshua Burnell's take on traditional song where he takes a prog rock approach to the material very successfully in my view - and in the view of others given the fact he is often invited back to festivals and other venues

What I do not enjoy is paying to see an artist at a folk club and then having to sit through a dozen mediocre or worse floor singers over the course of the evening - fortunately the club where this happened no longer exists and most clubs I have attended limit floor spots to two or three each half. Having said that I am a firm believer in the value of the floor spot and have discovered and encouraged many artists I have seen doing such a spot. I rarely attend singarounds or music sessions as I do not sing or play but when I do I enjoy them.

Hope that clarifies things


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 10:41 AM

Songs that last tend to share a few similarities: beautiful melodies that catch the ear and won't let go; lyrics to which one might feel kinship with. I'm partial to major key melodies, can think of very few minor key melodies I care for at all. (And remembering the latter would be a task.) The beautiful melody part is something I first noticed five or six decades ago--time flies when you're having fun. If the song's not got a good melody or at least one that works with the lyrics then I doubt it will be long remembered--but having made more than a few misjudgments along the way, I could be wrong. Nice offer and I'll likely take you up on it, Jim. Thanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 10:09 AM

Having known Joe G [ not well ] but for a few years I can tell you that his main interest is NOT traditional folksong but modern conteporary song, I don't think he really likes traditional stuff.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM

"Someone out there may enjoy reading this:"
Great article based on an interview I instigated when I was editor of The Singer's Club Magazine, The Lark, (I irritated Ewan no-end by referring to it as "Thrush")

I really can't understand how people can challenge Bert's massive contribution to folk song
He approached it from the perfect position - as a singer, and he put some of or best folksongs into the repertoire
I've discovered recently that several of the songs he sang came from English singers who emigrated to the North Eastern States of America and to Canada
He was vague about their origins sometimes - it didn't seem to bother too many people before folk research went ivory-towerist and became a status symbol rather than something to be enjoyed and understood by all
I remember Pat being told she was wrong about something we had discovered about Irish Travellers by the co-author of one of the major books on English Folk Song, she was firmly put in her place by being told, "I've done a course on it".

Bert's international stuff is stunning - 'Songs of the People', 'Folk Song Virtuoso', 'The Lament', 'Voice of the Gods', 'The Savage in the Concert Hall'.... and all the other wonderful stuff the BBC sneaked out for the intelligentsia on The Third Programme
If anybody would like to avail themselves of this gold-mine, send me your e-mail address - I've just put it up on my PCloud for distribution (this offer includes anybody I may have fallen out with - it's far too important to allow personal differences to stop it being distributed)

Personally, I found Bert far more difficult to communicate with than I did Ewan and Peggy - he was a far more private person, but his work still stands out as a monument to 'The best of times' of the English revival
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM

Someone out there may enjoy reading this:

https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/lloyd2.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 07:38 AM

Gammon wrote this way back in 1984. It is one of several pieces which explain how Lloyd was influenced by AL Morton's Marxist history of Britain.

Gammon wouldn't have had any colleagues left at his job if the ones influenced by Marxist history all went. It's a standard item in any academic's toolbox. I suspect you are taking this out of context.

Lloyd never made any secret of his Marxism and his work is the better for it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:29 AM

No they are not Dick - we don't need gods - but we do need everyy ounce of information gathered by them and others if we are evevr going to understand our music
As you say, we would be far less informed than we are without them
Perhaps it's time to put this "Marxist" nonsense to bed once and for all
Pseud quotes Vic Gammon - who I have laways understood to be a Marxist or at least fairly left
Vic certainly wrote for teh Marxist, Histort Workshop Journal edited by Marxist Raphael Samuels
We still have his excellent article claiming that songs like "All Jolly Fellows" were political outbursts
If there is to be a blacklist, then Vic's name would be on it

One of teh most outspoken and extreme Marxists on the scene was Dave Harker" who was doing exactly what Pseaud and others are doing in pulling down the work of Child, Sharp, MacColl, Lloyd, and even the timid Frank Kidson and Lucy Broadwood
He had a hitlist of all the poineers which he once decared he woul d expose for the romantics and charlatans they were one of Pseaud's supporters here once declared Harker "a great scholar"

"I would rather take advice on how to think about the researchers of the past"
I would much rather not need to be advised on how to think about anything and would much rather read everything, compare it to my own researches and think for myself
The supporter I mentioned above, rather than discuss the problems his own theories raised, offered to provide me with a list of people who agreed with him - that's a tad Messianic as far as I'm concerned
Relying on Gurus rather than your own common sense is as likely to produce a Charles Manson or a David Koresh as it it a Mahatma Ghandi
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:01 AM

Sharp, Child, and Lloyd, were not gods before whom we are required to prostrate ourselves and there seems to me to be something rather unfolk-like about behaving as if they were."
But where would we be without them, I do not know who you are PSEUD, BUT WITHOUT THE EFFORTS OF ALL 3 OUR REPERTOIRE WOULD BE COMARABLY SMALLER.now can we stick to topic please


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM

Sigh
Marxism is as valid philosophy as is any other branch
MaCarthist witch-hunting was exposed for the horror that is was in the sixties when it tried to jail Pete Seeger - i has no place here
Please stop it - now
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM

Here is another point of view on how to treat research from the past, from Vic Gammon:

" I must admit to some ... diffidence when I published my 'Song, Sex and Society' article Ö a couple of years ago. I found it hard to criticise a man who had given me so much. We have to overcome such feelings if the work is to progress. We have seen the results of intellectual fossilisation ...'

Gammon wrote this way back in 1984. It is one of several pieces which explain how Lloyd was influenced by AL Morton's Marxist history of Britain. I think it is well worth a read, as is more or less anything by Gammon. He has a website for anybody interested.

Roy Palmer has also analysed and critiquing Child's work; producing a well-argued piece in 1996, which has the additional merit of giving us a fair account of what Child's 'dunghill' comment actually meant, together with some insight into the complicated and, possibly, ultimately confused thinking which determined which songs and versions went in and which were left out of the work and which put in.

To complain about these interesting and well=argued critiques seems to me to be unreasonable. Sharp, Child, and Lloyd, were not gods before whom we are required to prostrate ourselves and there seems to me to be something rather unfolk-like about behaving as if they were.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:21 AM

"The issue I have with it being all about the "story" is foreign language songs."
I have the same problem with Irish language songs - you learn to enjoy them for different things and realise the similarities, if there are any
Why shouldn't Morris tunes be folk ? - they are by and large not songs and what words there are tend to serve the dance, but they are certainly part of our folk heritage
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM

Nick
Yes - the song is the thing - every time
The secret is to regard each song as an individual carrier of pleasure and information
Once you lift the corner to see what lies underneath you guarantee that you will never be bored again
Walter sang everything that took his fancy, but he was quite clear and extremely articulate in pointing out that not all of them were the "old folk songs"
He told us that he first took an interest in them when he realised that his cousins and other contemporaries had lost interest in them and were followng the latest musical tends
He set out to write his family's songs in a big notebook (which turned out to be two) and learned the melodeon to memorise the tunes
He relived every one of his songs each time he sang them - the secret for all of us it to treat each song a an individual statement
Eventually, he was persuaded by a relative to put them on tape - a story in itself

"Frances Child, who was really more of a student of the grammar of old forms of English than a student of English Literature"
Child is remembered for his magnificent work on ballads - that work had given us ove a century of pleasure and need to nbe treated with te respect often lacking in today's scene by a tiny handful of researchers who treat research like a pair of old socks, regularly discarded to make room for new ones
That is appalling research
I knw Bert Lloyd and never once heard him utter a 'Marxist' statement - he was, as most Marxists are, a socialist humanist seeking a better world - Sharp was a Fabian socialist who went out to use county songs to creat a new National Music and came home having realised that the People's Voice was far more important in its own right
If it hadn't been for people like Lloyd, MacColl, Gerry Sharp, Bill Leader.... and all those wonderful humanitarians who devoted their lives to gathering and making songs and sharing them and their findings with the rest of us we wouldn't have had a modern scene and people like me wouldn't have had the more than half a century of pleasure and interest that we have been blessed with

I fully accept that not everyone wants to take the songs and music as seriously as some of us do but it would be a very repressive and limited scene that doesn't allow us to do so and to share that with others
That's why it disturbs me when I see people being urded "don't go their" when things like definition raise their head - if you don't want to, don't try to stop others from doing so

They remind me of the story the two schoolkids coming out of a class given by a popular teacher
One says, "You've got to watch that buggger, drop your guard for a minute and you find you've learned something"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM

to continue, i am also steeped in the blues and jazz genre ,but i do not feel i can sing it as well as uk folk material, so one cannot be too didactic in thend subjectivity enters the equation


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:12 AM

For me it's the tune rather than anything. But I'm not a singer."
Tune is a contributory factor,but for me it also lyric as a singer the lyric is important.
Dave music and genres are OCCASIONALY LINKED BUT NOT ALWAYS.FOR example the HarryChapin song the shortest story, i heard this sung by richard grainger performed in a folk style, it was very powerful, however we are all going on a summer holiday by cliff richard or lily the pink are typical popgenre that imo have nothing to do with folk music.
then because something uses a folk tune that does not automaticaally mean it is a folk song.
jazz by its defintion has to use some improvisation, so pop songs can become jazz,likewise folk music tunes can become jazz and there will be crossover situations where it could be both, i am sure if charlie parker had played miss mcleods ree[originally a scottish tune]it would have sounded more like modern jazz than a dance tune , so treatment comes into the equation ,for treatment to make miss mcleods reel to use improvisationand still souns folky charlie parker would have to have been steeped in irish folk music ,he was not he was steeped in jazz result it would sound more like jazz .
likewise when a performer is a pop singer and sings a folk song he wil make it sound like a popsong .there are of course grey areas Dusty springfield did a fairly good job of lagan love better than ed shheran singing wild mountain thyme , but as i understand both had some irish roots subsequently they did in the first case fairly well and in the second ok[ although ed should drop the american acct and sing in his natural accent , but can you imagine buddy holly trying to sing adieu sweet lovely nancy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM

The issue I have with it being all about the "story" is foreign language songs. I have enjoyed many Russian songs for instance but I lost that language when I started school so, apart from a few words, I don't understand what they are saying. Are they not folk songs? Of course they are. I also enjoy instrumental music. Are Morris dance tunes not folk music either? The sung or spoken word in English is only part of it. Take "The carnival is over" by the Seekers for instance. It is based on the Russian Folk song "Stenka Rasin" . Or Elvis Presley's "Wooden Heart" which uses German folk tune "Muss i denn". The music and genres are all inexorably linked and impossible to categorise exactly. In my opinion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

Frances Child, who was really more of a student of the grammar of old forms of English than a student of English Literature as we understand that term today taught a range of subjects including mathematics and history. He was a founder member of a journal of the American Folklore Society. One can find the first edition of the journal of the society online, for nothing, including a piece setting out the general approach and aims of the society. It includes references to 'primitive races' and 'the savage mind', meaning, basically Black and Native Americans.

I was introduced to this through a book which some might complain about as sweeping aside the research of the past so that we end up knowing less than we knew when we started, but which I found to be a reasoned and well argued critique from, I guess, a point of view of what one might call 'liberal'. It is called Segregating Sound by Karl Hagstrom Miller. One might agree or disagree with some of the analysis, but I think one would find it difficult to argue that it is not an excellent piece of research, even though it calls into question the orthodoxy of the past and points to the effects of that orthodoxy.

Oh, dear, I seem to have denigrated the great Child. And gone way off-topic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 03:55 AM

1 There is a difference between denigrating and critiquing.

2 "One of the disturbing aspects of modern research is the it has become a tendency to denigrate the work done by past researchers Ö Unless we learn to incorporate all research into our understand we will end up knowing less than we know now "

I would rather take advice on how to think about the researchers of the past from somebody capable of grasping the issues raised by point 1 and the flaws in point 2, and who understood that publishing not one but two accounts of English folk song underpinned by the Marxist historical thinking of the day (as Lloyd did) is a political act.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:17 PM

And Jim you are right.

It's the song.

Or is it?

I genuinely don't know



I happened to hear a young man sing a verse of Moon River when we played a gig and I thought 'what a great tune' and it's not a bad lyric.


My heart surges for special tunes (Canyon Moonrise for example)


For me it's the tune rather than anything. But I'm not a singer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:14 PM

Off to bed now but that link doesn't work for me Nick

You are right about liking music - I love everything except for the stuff I don't love! Orchestral, jazz, folk (form most places in the world - I have a problem with much Chinese / Japanese / 'far eastern' music but that's me not the music), pop, rock.

Folk music is very important to me but not more important than the music of Sibelius or Vaughan Williams or even Abba at their very best

Good night and no doubt we will meet soon!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:04 PM

Jim

As we went from Cork to Galway. We could have waved. Enjoyed the sessions n Galway (always start an hour late)

Gosh they are onto religion now. Oh gosh

I loved music in Ireland. Like everywhere else.

This is not a folk song but it's about making music and all our insecurities and rubbish. The interesting bit is when it goes wrong...

whoops

I doubt anybody else does this stuff...

We get away


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:21 PM

I'm off

Just dipped in and gone

Sorry!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:06 PM

Folk is a little part of music

I realise for some people it's everything

I feel equally sorry for people who think jazz is everything

Or classical music is everything.

And if we didn't such a limited span of 12 notes we could do other stuff.

I love it that Jim and co love what they love. I love a bit of it.

They are not wrong or right and it genuinely doesnt matter.

I was a very lucky man who grew up liking music rather than genres


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:59 PM

Joe g
If you had met me you would know how broad my shoulders are :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 PM

So the Water is Wide is a good song or not. doesn't matter
Performance - sing it well sing it badly. doesn't matter
The words of the song - doesn't matter
The tune - doesn't matter


What matters about a song?

Is it just provenance?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:56 PM

I'd say they were all folk but some wouldn't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:53 PM

You're getting dangerously close to the what is folk question Nick - don't go there - really - it will all end in tears :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:51 PM

The first time I met Dan Mckinnon was at our little session. Nice man to sing and play with. Did we run a folk club who knows.

Are Blackbeards Tea Party folk? Is Stan Graham folk? What is Graham Hodge?

For me people just play music. I had a great time last year on the Falls Road in Belfast listening to a friend playing and loving it and with no problem - just music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:51 PM

You're just being mischievous Al ;-)

Try talking to bus enthusiasts - makes us folkies seem quite relaxed - I say as a bus enthusiast :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:44 PM

I wonder if people argue about fish and chips in the same way.

That's not REAL fish and chips!

Oh yes it is. There chips and theres fish...

Macdonalds aren't REAL chips.....(and so on....)

Its not the 1954 definition of fish and chips , etc.

Real fish and chips only exists in isolated communities, where they they remember the traditional way they were wrapped in the News Chronicle and The Daily Sketch...

Real Fish and Chips must be unaccompanied. the battered sausage was brought in by food business professionals who din't care about the integrity of of a great part of English culture....People who have battered sausages are stinkers!

Many of my friends stopped going to fish and chips shops, when they were faced with an evening of Pukka pies, Scampi and saveloys...

I haven't been in a fish and chip shop for years, but I've heard what passes for fish and chips in such places....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM

"Basically we fall out when someone deliberately attacks the hard work we put into what we do."
One of the disturbing aspects of modern research is the it has become a tendency to denigrate the work done by past researchers - Sharp and his colleagues have always been victims, of late, Child has been described as incompetent, even regarding his Poetry research
MacColl and Lloyd... need one say more ?
Unless we learn to incorporate all research into our understand we will end up knowing less than we know now

"I would rather ask Jim and Dick whether our interpretation of song is ok"
The song or the singer? The song every time - the singer should be a conduit between the narrative and the listener
It's the singers job not to get in the way of the song by 'telling it' rather than performing it

The song is THE THING.
"All the time"

"Regardless of the performance"
Depends on how competent it is; a good song (particularly a ballad) can survive an indifferent performance, but if it's bad your audience listens to the faults
In the end, the first person the singer has to move is him/herself

"Or does interpretation matter?"
It's essential - it has to be good enough to communicate to an audience what you FEEL about the song

"As I said we'll go and sing this tomorrow - to a NON folk audience. They will appreciate the craft of the singing and playing."
You can sometimes get over this with a short, clear introduction
The thing to remember is that most audiences want you to succeed - if you convince them you 'have the right to be there' (an old theatre saying), you have won their attention and even maybe their respect

So are we harming the song that we care about performance?
Technical performance and interpretation (reached at by understanding your song) is essential - as long as you pass on how you feel about it - technique and even over-performance can often be a diversion

"When my friend does his listen to Walter Pardon sing - I listen for the song rather than the performance."
Great - that means the song is working and your audience is listening to the song and not you
Walter "saw" his songs, he mentally dressed up his cahracters and placed them in familiar localities
He sang. 'Pretty Ploughboy' once and then pointed out at the field opposite his cottage and said, "He used to plough in that field" (he didn't mean that literally, but's that where he placed the action for the duration of the song.
He one sang his long version of Van Dieman's Land, flopped back in his chair and said, "That's a long old song, but it was a long old journey"
Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy said singing a song was "like sitting in the cinema.
We had similar examples of things like this from many singers
"Is this a purely folk thing or can we talk about blues?"
Blues is the folk music of Black America drawn from their own experiences (as I believe our folk songs are
Broonzy once heard MacColl sing 'Four Loom Weaver" and said "I never knew honkys had blues".
All my opinion, of course
Jim

Repeat I'm afraid, from an interview Pat and I did with MacColl in the 80s

Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least thatís the argument thatís put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody whoís ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that youíre not enjoying it when youíre making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when itís working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but itís hit or miss. If youíre training it can happen more, thatís the difference. It canít happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, itís something to fall back on, a technique, you know. Itís something that will at least make sure that youíre not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing heís no longer worried about technique, heís done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:37 PM

Ah meant to say Steve that I am glad you have waded back in with some positivity - I would't disagree with any of your comments. Last night in York I paid a rare visit to an excellent musicians session as a friend was visiting. If I hadn't been going there I would have been at the Black Swan Folk Club where an artist I haven't seen before, Dan McKinnon, was performing - I understand from a friend from the US who attends gigs all over the UK that he is a superb singer who performs many Stan Rogers songs amongst others. Next Tuesday I'll be attending thefairly new Devil's Own Acoustic Club where the Rich Hardcastle Band and Marin Heaton will be performing a mix of folk and non folk material. If I could drive at night I would be in Terrington tomorrow to see the Dan Webster Band as mentioned earlier.
I have listened to the excellent new Jon Boden CD on Spotify today and will be listening to Music Planet on Radio 3 tomorrow. To be honest I like a good singing session but I really don't see not being able to attend one nearby as a failure of the UK folk scene. The songs and music will survive by people doing interesting things to them and committing them to recordings eg Jim Moray rather than them just being preserved in their more original versions - though that too is important and I thank Jim and others who do this important work. Time moves on and I am certainly more happy with the state of folk music now than I was say in the 90's before a new generation took it up and gave it their own interpretation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 PM

Joe G

I think I might have met you in the past

Here's a little 60's song (10 years too late) by Malvina Reynolds
But then the Searchers did it. How weird is that? Searchers

It feels a bit like folk but it might be a pop song. Or written too late

Desperately trying to wonder why it matters. They are just songs written at different times.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:23 PM

Glad to hear it Joe. Just a shame I can't delete the Asian dating site advert that just appeared. Maybe that's the prize for getting to 900 ;-)

I don't think I'm at that gig Nick but no doubt our paths will cross!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:08 PM

I hit the 900, Joe, but Joe deleted it. I think they must be passe now.


    No, I wouldn't delete a "900" and I certainly wouldn't delete "1000." I think they're fun, but some of the other moderators don't like them.
    -Joe-


    I see the OCD counting posts as blank. They are certainly free from any relevant content.
    -Other moderator-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:06 PM

Joe Offer is the nicest man in the world. And we have a mutual regard for Janet Russell for all sorts of reasons

When I was in California (he helped me to go to the best places) one of my regrets is that I didn't meet him

Next time perhaps


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:03 PM

Sarah McQuaid will be my next visit to Black Swan

I'm the man in the moleskin shorts the white fedora the pink feather boa and the subtly themed top

I doubt you'll spot me


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:01 PM

Just missed the 900

Keep it friendly everyone and Joe might let us make the 1000 - only if there are enough interesting things to say of course!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:58 PM

I have amended my guitar part. This thread has been useful to me.

Fussy guitar parts. ---> bin


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:57 PM

Be good to meet you sometime Nick - perhaps next time Dan plays York or if you are at the Black Swan FC anytime. Next week's guests Winter Wilson are highly recommended. I don't play or sing but mess about on the computer trying to compose stuff in various genres. Mostly unsuccessfully!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:53 PM

Thanks Steve - glad you like it. When I first moved to York we 'discovered' Dan at a local beer festival and were immediately impressed by his covers of contemporary and traditional songs as well as by his original material. Since then we have become good friends and have promoted gigs together under the Green Chilli Roots banner - just doing occasional mostly Americana gigs now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 7 April 5:02 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Cafť Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.