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The current state of folk music in UK

Howard Jones 16 Nov 19 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 05:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 05:56 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Nov 19 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:05 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:56 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 09:04 PM
RTim 15 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Nov 19 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
Jack Campin 15 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 04:03 PM
The Sandman 15 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 02:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM
The Sandman 15 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 12:27 PM
Vic Smith 15 Nov 19 - 12:20 PM
Jeri 15 Nov 19 - 12:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 12:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 12:03 PM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 11:48 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 11:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 19 - 08:49 AM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:00 AM

"I'll give you an example a certain singer recorded a contemporary song with the writers permission. The writers recording and publishing company demanded he pay royalties. "

The problem there was that the writer was no longer in a position to give permission, he had assigned that right to his publisher. The publisher now owns the song and is the one entitled to the royalties. Hopefully the writer received a fair deal in return.

The publisher takes on the financial risks of publishing the music in return for being given the rights to make money from it. Ideally the writers and musicians will receive a fair deal, but all too often this is not the case, whether due to their naivety or the balance of power being in favour of the producer. The whole PRS/MCPS system is built around this model, which makes it difficult for individuals to receive royalties unless they are able to join these bodies, so it often works better for them to assign their rights to a publisher.

In the commercial music world the best an emerging artist can hope for is to tie themselves to one of the big labels and hope they don't get ripped off. Only once they are successful are they powerful enough to take back control after the initial contract ends. The folk scene is different, and it is increasingly common for musicians to act as their own publishers and retain control. Besides, most of the folk labels are cottage industries with close ties to the music and I have no reason to think they don't treat their artists fairly. However problems may still arise if they go out of business, as their ownership rights can then be acquired by anyone and don't revert to the artists (which was the cause of the Bulmer issue).


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:58 AM

"i think it is a load of old squit"
Everybody to their own Dick - whichever part of the body it comes from-)
NOWT WRONG WITH THIS
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:56 AM

the scen abandoned Steeleye and Pentangle and the rest in the last century

Just shows how out of touch you are, Jim. Steeleye Span are celebrating their 50 year anniversary with a new album and sell out tour. I can confirm that their concerts have massive audiences ranging from babes in arms to great grannies.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

people still listento and perform country and irish it is a well loved genre, but i think it is a load of old squit. yes your argument about bringing people in to the music is valid


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

62,238 "views"
https://youtu.be/6gH_X2efRdI


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM

"what you consider to be the only true 'folk' versions "
Don't remember saying there
Their ain't no such thing I'm afraid, you must be thinking of someone else
It doesn't matter how many people here itt - that would make every song on the hit parade a folk song - that would be silly, wouldn't it ?

"People still listen to, love and perform folk rock you know,"
As they do first wold war songs - the scen abandoned Steeleye and Pentangle and the rest in the last century
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

'It is a somewhat dated experimental rendition in a style that has gone the way all pop renditions eventually go'
Jim

Yes - heard by many thousands more people than what you consider to be the only true 'folk' versions will be heard by. Some of whom, as I have said, may be interested enough in the songs to discover more about them - like I was when I heard Steeleye Span and Five Hand Reel and became a life long devotee of the songs and music.

People still listen to, love and perform folk rock you know, and it is a well loved genre with quite a few artists such as Joshua Burnell finding new audiences for folk songs. All good in my view. It is certainly not dead.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM

"Then logically that could apply to any piece of music."
It might, if that music is anonymous - most composed music isn't
The term 'Folk' identifies a specific section of the community anyway - that's why folk and traditional are two sides of the same coin
'Folk' as applied to the peoples' culture was agreed on in the 1830s tp identify lore, tales music, dance, song..... the creation of 'the lower orders - 'The People'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM

no no no modern composed songs particularly pop songs , are always[in my experience performed lyric wise as written.eg yesterday, that means they do not get folk processed


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM

"The songs were taken up and passed on and changed by whoever took them up in the process - that's what defines them as folk songs"
Then logically that could apply to any piece of music.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:34 AM

If a song evolves is totally out of the hands of the music industry and the creator.

One of my songs was adapted and given naughty words by the fans of Bayern Munich football club and sung on the terraces (if those cultured EU countries have terraces). I didn't know anything about it. I doubt if I got any royalties.

I seem to remember Lloyd Webber's Jesu Christ Superstar suffered a similar fate:-
Ryan Giggs! Superstar!
How many goals have you scored so far

The song Son of my Father was adopted by Aston Villa fans in the 1970's

Oh Jolly Roger!
Roger! Roger! Roger!
Roger Hinds!.

One publisher who owned three of my songs and had some success with them,   went bankrupt. this was considered good business practice in the 1980's. the songs passed to the files of a huge conglomerate who do bugger all with them. I believe the the guy lives in Hawaii.

Its made me very wary of publishers.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

"Thanks Jim for saying the version I posted was an acceptable rendition - "
I didn't say it was an acceptibkle rendition of a folk song - I made it quite clear that I don't believe it is
It is a somewhat dated experimental rendition in a style that has gone the way all pop renditions eventually go
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:08 AM

Actually I'll do a bit better than that. Some people might say the music business is run by a bunch of well mannered thugs in suits. Right now we have the ludicrous situation where Taylor Swift is being banned from singing her own songs, Sandi Thom was pushed out of the business by the playlist of a certain broadcasting company and numerous artists have retired hurt. Just listen to the late Kirsty McColl's song on the subject.
We have had a few nasty bits of work on the Folk Scene as well, take a look at some previous threads on here. If you are a successful singer in any medium my opinion is you need to remain as independent as you can.
I'll give you an example a certain singer recorded a contemporary song with the writers permission. The writers recording and publishing company demanded he pay royalties. The singer said 'Not even a problem! I'll post the cheque directly to the writer then shall I?' The voice on the phone said he would be very displeased if that happened, and might take further action, for the money was his company's cash, and did not belong to the writer. The singer backed down and said OK, because he was fairly young and inexperienced, The singer later met the writer who said he had received no money at all.
At the same time the singer was turned over by his previous record label. Those who ran said label it is alleged did very nicely.
Oh happy memories- Dingle we have a luverly time the day we went to the cleaners!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:05 AM

"Only because we don't know who wrote them. They didn't write themselves. A really stupid statement."
Nothing stupid about it
It's not their anonymity that makes them folk songs but what happened to them
The songs were taken up and passed on and changed by whoever took them up in the process - that's what defines them as folk songs
Some of them almost certainly were made communally - we have a number of examples of recently composed (40-60 year old) being made by groups of people passing lines and verses between each other until they finished up with full songs
In each case, the names of the people who were involved were not known, the communities took them up and they became part of Traveller/Clare culture
The law deems such songs to be public public property - you think that stupid, take it up with the law
Walter was spot on (as he usually was) when he said "They're everybody's"
      
In my opinion, all folk songs are 'arrangements' so it is sharp practice for any modern artist to copyright their arrangement, because they are doing so on the backs of the legal owners "Everybody"
If there is any money to be made out of selling such songs it should be ploughed back into the preservation of folk song
Singers are entitled to earn money from singing folk songs (being paid for their labour) if that's what they choose to do, but that's it - end of story
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:56 AM

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

"... why paul macs songs will never be folk songs another reason is that they cannot evolve "
Crap. Of course they can "evolve". It's all down to what musicians do with them. They will "never be folk songs". So what ?
NO YOU ARE WRONG THE LYRICS OF YESTERDAY DO NOT CHANGE THEY DO NOT EVOLVE ,MUSICAL ARRANGEMENTS MAY CHANGE, BUT THE LYRICCS ARE PERFORMED AS WRITTEN ALWAYS. They will never be tradtional songs they are composed material and the lyrics are never changed ,they may be good songs but they are not trad material ,whether you like it or not there isan accepted definition of tradtional


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM

if you write a tune for a set of words , as i understand it it is more than trad arranged , you receive 50 per cent of the amount of a self composed song and sometimes more.
i did not say the amount would be so small it would be an insult. YOU HAVE MISQUOTED ME.
On the subject of bands having hits, it seems to have been quite common for the bands to have been ripped off depending on the contracts signed examples, bo diddley the small faces.
Nick if the music belongs to everybody, logically it means just that. trad music in the words of walter belongs to everybody , the problem arise when commercialism steps in and greedy agents etc.
all this illustrates the current state of folk music in the uk it gets fucked up when money grabbing people enter the scene be they, Kennedy. dave bulmer,
Nick called them family songs, but are they self composed songs? or tradtional material, and unless they are copyrighted gypsy like gorgios are not protected, if they are copyrighted it means in theory they cannot be sung by others if the people are getting paid for singing them ,enforcing that is more difficult


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM

A bit dodgy for me to comment, for obvious reasons. Until I see what they actually put, and what system they used for payments if any it would be better for me to keep my gob shut. I don't know that they did not put Trad arr. and which publishing company they used.
Like I said welcome to the muso business.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 09:04 PM

what would have happened if Steeleye had put Trad arranged by credit?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: RTim
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM

As Nick Dow said - Barbara Berry wrote a tune to a song that became very popular......and Barbara was an old old friend of mine - and I can tell you her and Len (her husband) were very very pleased with the regular cheques they received for the covers of the song....They probably made more from that than I have from 3 Traditional song based CD's....
And before you ask - most - if not all of the songs on those CDs came from Manuscripts and collected singers who have LONG been dead!!!

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM

Al
It wouldn't be up to Steeleye to get the money to them. The way it works is MCPS collect royalties from them, and distribute them accordingly. So had Peter Kennedy registered for MCPS or whatever other body does the same, he would have had the money and honest man that he was would have passed it on in cash to them.
The reality is that as Dick said the amount was so small it would have been an insult, however it really depends how many records you press (or CD/s you burn) If you have a run of 50k it might end up a reasonable amount. The late Barbara Berry wrote a tune to a traditional song that was sung by a very well known young singer and received royalties accordingly.
The Gypsy Folk are not interested in any of this, and they don't do 'misinformed'. What they see is a band that had a hit in the charts and plays in big places full of people, singing one or more of their family's songs and they are getting naff all. That they see as another Gorgio rip off, and I am not the one who is going to try to tell them any different. So it got round like wildfire and they now set their price, and sing accordingly.
Come to think about it so do you, and I, and anybody else you care to mention. We also sing for free if the cause is a good one and guess what. So do they. I have gained their trust over 30 years and they know that their songs are not going anywhere they don't want them to go. That's why I sit on my recordings and only pass them on to those I trust.
Welcome to the wonderful music business.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:14 PM

Sorry that should have read 'Thanks Jim for saying the version I posted was an acceptable rendition - glad we can agree on that. I still consider that version to be folk though. We won't agree on that but the conversation has moved on so I am happy to go with the flow'

Not a good idea typing on a phone on a bus!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM

Jim said 'I'm not saying for one minute that yours ia an unacceptable rendition, I am saying if it ain't narrative it ain't folk'

Thanks Jim for saying the version I posted was an unacceptable rendition - glad we can agree on that. I still consider that version to be folk though. We won't agree on that but the conversation has moved on so I am happy to go with the flow


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

"... why paul macs songs will never be folk songs another reason is that they cannot evolve "
Crap. Of course they can "evolve". It's all down to what musicians do with them. They will "never be folk songs". So what ? Who are you to define what will be regarded as a "folk song" in 100/200/500 years time ?
https://youtu.be/0MzetQfKwbE


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM

Ownership is something ethnomusicologists deal with all the time, and the variety of answers to "who owns this song?" are much more varied than anybody's mentioned in this thread. Ownership can be individual or collective, with all sorts of collectivities and legal frameworks. Most of the traditional songs of one region pf Melanesia are owned by specific families, and you would probably be on the pointy end of a spear if you infringed that. One Native American culture expects a man to make one flute tune for himself in adolescence, played on a flute he made himself, which will be his exclusively, and he will never play anything else. Other songs are mysteries, the property of religious groups who never let outsiders hear them (like Aboriginal corroborree songs and the hunt songs of northern England). Others are taught and performed under compulsion, like national anthems, and the coercion is directed at those who don't join in.

In many of these situations the question "is it folk?" Is irrelevant, and if you really did want an answer, the status of the song (tune, dance, costume, ritual) in statutory or customary law wouldn't help you find one.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:03 PM

I   see - but how would Steeleye Span get the money to the source singers if the source singers didn't claim some part in their ownership.

The basic proposition was that the source singers were diddled. correct me if I've got it wrong.

Seems to be my day for getting things wrong.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM

ts a tricky one. Jim (the resident expert) is always very insistent that one of the differences between trad. and comtemporary (and one of the the things that nullifies any contemporary song from being folk) is this business of ownership. "
jim is right, the music belomgs to everybody , one reason why paul macs songs will never be folk songs another reason is that they cannot evolve or be folk processed.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM

"As Walter Pardon pt it, "They're not my songs, they're everybody's""
Only because we don't know who wrote them. They didn't write themselves. A really stupid statement.
"involving the PRS and the IMRO sharks has already cost the club scene dear" Please explain. Specifically, how many "Folk Clubs" have been driven out of business because of the activities of these 2 organisations ? Name them.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 02:35 PM

"You seem to be proposing that we extend ownership to source artists."
On teh conrary Al - Folk song is supposed too be in teh pubic domain and owned by nobody - dat's de law
You are entitled to get mainey from PRS for music you cal lay ownnership on, but the joy of finding folk song was in fact it was owned by nobody
As Walter Pardon pt it, "They're not my songs, they're everybody's"

I've never earned a penny out of folk song and Walter got paid for singing them at clubs - that is the way it should be
Surely you see the benefit of keeping it that way ?
involving the PRS and the IMRO sharks has already cost the club scene dear - if you lose the 'public domain' status nobody is going to b able to keep any club going
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM

Its a tricky one. Jim (the resident expert) is always very insistent that one of the differences between trad. and comtemporary (and one of the the things that nullifies any contemporary song from being folk) is this business of ownership.

You seem to be proposing that we extend ownership to source artists.

To be honest I've been a full member of the PRS for nearly forty years. I was initially quite pleased to get money from anywhere - but over the years I've realised they work in their mysterious way - and its life , but not as we know it, as they used to say in Star Trek.

For ages they sent glossy publications with bugger all in them . They gave John Lennon scholarships for musicians that surely wouldn't be caught dead listening to.

I suppose they're as likely to see things your way as anything. But I wouldn't hold my breath.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM

Sorry Jeri - should have been five fucks

"Jim, have you ever considered reading people's posts and NOT l"
I have readall the posts aimed at me and have bent over backwards to answer them
I' only get pissed off when I am insulted - ter rest of the time I am argumentative - fifty odd years of active participation during which time I have been helped the giants on the scene - from MacColl and Seeger to Lomax, should, at the very least give me the right to do that
It would be far more helpful if people pointed iut what I am missing rather than alluding to it, as you are now
If you want a fanzine forum full of nodding dogs you need to say so and I'll go elsewhere
It seems to have escaped everyone's notice that while Irish Traditional Music is going from strength to strength and Scots music screams its identity from the rooftops on sites like 'Kist o' Riches', the best England can offer is "nobody kknows what folk song is any more and we don't want to talk about it"
I've lost touch with the US scene, but am left with the impression that the real stuff is locked away in the Lib. of Cong. and the public scene is virtually non-existent - would be happy to learn that is not the case
The Enlish scene is a bit of a battlefield at present, crtainly on the academic front where the new lot are desperately trying to unravel over a century's worth of research
If Mudcat can no longer reflect the differences and controversies that are taking place then it's about time for it to fold its tent and describe itself as something else
I have no problem with teh traditional description of the tradition, if others have, then they need to spell it out
Yours respectfully ((sort of)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM

I recently read the wiki on "Those Were The Days" the Mary Hopkins hit..

What is of concern is the extent to which the credited USA writer
registered copyright on old Russian folk melodies...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM

the percentage paid out for trad arr is minscule compared to what is paid out for self composed, as regards music played on the radio the biggest percentage is for bnational radio , local radio is sampled often only one day in a month , the ideathat people make vast amounts out of air play for trad music is lasughable . the only time a perfomer really makes money is for self composed music played on national radio. if travellers think they are being ripped off and losing vast amounts they are misinformed, however that does not excuse kennedy who ripped them off for a pittance and lost their trust and made it difficult for other collectors


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:27 PM

Look forward to seeing you at Ringwood.
No Al you've missed the point again. It wasn't Steeleye that was the problem. It's easy. Kennedy took songs from the Travellers. Right, then as traditional material anybody can sing them. That's great as far as it goes. However if those singers were making a bob of two from recordings the correct thing to do in most peoples opinion was to give the original singers MCPS or PRS (or some other body) protection, or even a bloody mention would have been nice. After my problems with the music business I am quite prepared to believe that Steeleye got bugger all and a suit pocketed the rest, however if you think in terms of the MCPS percentage that could have been paid down the line to the Travellers, if some mush could have been bothered to turn up with the cash, at least that might have made the collectors job a lot easier. That is no answer but it is at least some mitigation. Where does the buck stop? At the man with the microphone. A bit late now.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:20 PM

Tongue in cheek smiley emoticons apply where available...

What do you mean.... like this


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:18 PM

"five to fucks" - what does that mean?

Jim, have you ever considered reading people's posts and NOT looking for excuses to get pissed off? Every fucking thread you're in...
Please, just stop it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:05 PM

Tongue in cheek smiley emoticons apply where available...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 12:03 PM

"The factual realty ifs that folk song is no longer the stuff that the folk scene is made of - that has now become obvious when folk rock - an experimental genre largely rejected a couple of decades ago when Steeleye and Pentangle hung up their spurs, is put up as being folk narrative, when it obviously is exactly the opposite"

Jim - that is a prime example of what I have described.

It is fair to suggest that your personal opinion on folk rock
is too out of touch and uninformed to be taken seriously,
and will be rejected by the many thousands of folk
who have better knowledge on the subject than you do.

In short, your personal opinion on this sub-genre of folk music is demonstrably wrong.

"I' afraid I find being accused of not having a grasp of factual reality downright insulting, and hurtfuk if I took it seriously"

..and again you prove my point by taking my comment out of context
and stretching it so far you can find something else to imagine
you are being insulted by...

In the context of this thread I am only talking about your opinions on some forms of modern folk music...
Obviously not your overall mental health..
That didn't even occur to me...

However, If you think I am actually suggesting you are clinically bonkers, then you must be errrrmmm.. bonkers...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:49 AM

My last post unnecessarily blunt. I would prefer to say the the paradigm has shifted/changed as a direct result of industrialisation, the increasing mechanisation of agriculture, the flock to the towns and the decay/expiry of tradtional trades. Concurrent with these changes were massive shifts in behaviour and modes of entertainment. Surely folk music has had to change as well? Are folk aficionados studying a historical subject or a vibrant art form?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:48 AM

" no I am not insulting you,"
"Our problem with Jim is that he seems to have difficulty
"distinguishing his subjective opinions
from objective factual reality.."

Really - we must be speaking another language then
I' afraid I find being accused of not having a grasp of factual reality downright insulting, and hurtfuk if I took it seriously
I could say you lot have seliberately hijacked the people's music for your own ends and don't five to fucks what damage you have done to The People's music, but I prefer to put how I feel in rational terms so we vcan mebe discuss it
You offer nothing but this sort of thing
If I have missed a rational and polite answer......
I really won't bother with Iains point - it has been gone over a hundred times and he's not exctly recognised as 'The Listening Bank' (though I have tried, of late
Jim
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM

Jim - no I am not insulting you, that is how you choose to interpret what I write.
Is it fact or opinion to claim that your default mode is to feel insulted and be offended...???

Far from wanting to insult you,
My post is intended as an objective observation.
It is up to other mudcatters to decide for themselves if they think it is right or wrong...

Personally I try to keep my more contentious opinions to myself,
and strive to be as objective as I can in public discussion.

But despite all the exasperating pointless conflict,
I still enjoy knowing you,
and talking with you...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:24 AM

So Jim feels the entire genre is pickled in aspic. A minority view on this forum.. Most feel it has merely changed. This change first started in the Industrial Revolution. The first factories were noisy and exceedingly dangerous for those that ever took their eye off the ball.
Hardly a creative environment for the genesis of song.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM

"Our problem with Jim is that he seems to have difficulty
distinguishing his subjective opinions
from objective factual reality.."
Once again yuo are choosing to insult me rather than answer my points - which tend to confirm they are striking home
The factual realty ifs that folk song is no longer the stuff that the folk scene is made of - that has now become obvious when folk rock - an experimental genre largely rejected a couple of decades ago when Steeleye and Pentangle hung up their spurs, is put up as being folk narrative, when it obviously is exactly the opposite
I have explained why and I have also outlined the massive damage that has been done to both the club scene and the music that represents (to borrow Topic's phrase) 'The Voice of the People
If I can do that without insulting anyone here, I would have thought that could be returned (without the nastiness) - pleae
I'm supposed to be the nasty one
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:06 AM

No I'm ot a Dorset man. I live in the bleeding place - my wife's call. However i know where Piddletrnthide is.

What am I supposed to have got wrong about Steeleye? They never struck me as being mega rich. i knew them briefly when Ken Nicol played with them. I like Ken - a good man.

I think you're doing Ringwood this week - Nick. I'll try and get there.

I believe we both did our first recordings at Steve Adams studio.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM

Our problem with Jim is that he seems to have difficulty
distinguishing his subjective opinions
from objective factual reality..

At worse, his opinions have become entrenched as prejudice...

However, we have probably all been guilty of this at points in our lives...

EG: When I was 17 I loudly proclaimed that all Disco music was shit...
Since my 30s I began to realise and understand just how creative and sophisticated a musical form
it really was...
I now happily enjoy listening to Disco compilation CDs with the mrs.
She's always been a fan of it, but she still hates a lot of music I like...

That is just one example...

I was prejudiced, but eventually became better informed, more mature, and objective in my musical opinions..

Unfortunately some folks will take their prejudices with them to their graves/urns...

Is it fact or opinion to claim,
the majority of us do find it so annoying when such prejudiced folks are prominent figures in public debate...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM

Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to a dead tradition
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 10:32 AM

For it to be part of a tradition you need a folk process that allows new things to be absorbed
or to phrase it slightly differently - to allow lyrics to be(new things to be absorbed) aka misheard.
With every phone capable of recording that folk process is no longer going to happen, or is some other factor at play?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 10:14 AM

You know as well as I do Joe that the communication of poetry and prose isn't just the understanding of words - narrating sense, good grammar and pronunciation are all an essential part of communication
You can turn Hamlet's soliloquies into doggerel if you decide to send them up
In addition you have voclal tone and effort - a little more difficult to explain but an essential part of communicating the sense of a story
Traditional singers tend usually to sing as they speak - anll the punctuation in the right place, no unnecessary gaps, no breaking up or unnecessarily extending words (as happens here with the line of oooo's
I'm not saying for one minute that yours ia an unacceptable rendition, I am saying if it ain't narrative it ain't folk

Baccie
Please don't you start on the '54 kick - leave that to Dave - I'm not a 54 adherent and I have never known any
I've never used it and I'm not sure I remember what it covers fully
Our song tradition died sometime in the 19th century - Sharp and his crowd saying they were racing to beat the undertaker
W no longer have an oral tradition connected to songs - that a diminishing number of folkies might decide to make something else of the songs is a self-conscious act often acknowledged by copyrighting 'versions' of folk songs
For it to be part of a tradition you need a folk process that allows new things to be absorbed
Once you change the utterance of a song it becomes something else
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 10:04 AM

Just got back home.
Yesterday Big Al wrote :-
Steeleye Span made a fortune. ... they'll be pleased to hear that

Please don't be clever Al. I have no idea how much anybody made from the song. If you think that the Gypsy Folk are mistaken in how they feel, and need to be corrected Here are your directions. You being a Dorset man you'll know where I mean
Go up the Dorchester road to Puddletown. Turn right into Puddletown and drive through to Piddletrentide, go past the pub, and you will find the permanent site on your right up a small incline. Go on to the site, ask for any member of the Hughes or Cooper family, and explain how they got it all wrong.
While I'm waiting for you to do that I'll go and fuel up the pigs, and get them ready to fly.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM

I'm not sure if I have heard that particular song before but had no problems in understanding the words and found this version infinitely preferable to the one you posted. We are from slightly different generationsJim. As well as folk I was listening to heavy rock and prog rock when I was younger and I listen to a huge range of music now. I can therefore appreciate a wider range of approaches to folk song than you can. As I said best to agree to disagree rather than you trying to tell me that this version is invalid in some way


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 08:49 AM

”Based on the fact that, although I have known the song since it was recorded from Caroline Hughes in the early sixties I had trouble recognising the words and following the plot”

But isn’t that what has happened with songs since time immemorial - the words and, often, the tunes, have changed as the song is passed from person to person? Isn’t that how we’ve ended up with multiple ‘versions’ of songs which vary according to where they’re sung?

Isn’t that the ‘Folk Process’ so solemnly deified by adherents of ‘The 1954 Definition’?


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