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The current state of folk music in UK

punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 19 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,JoeG 31 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 01:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 01:54 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Derrick 31 Oct 19 - 12:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 10:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM
r.padgett 31 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM
Howard Jones 31 Oct 19 - 10:40 AM
r.padgett 31 Oct 19 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 10:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,crumbly 31 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 09:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Howard Jones 31 Oct 19 - 08:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Vic Smith 31 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 31 Oct 19 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Hootennanny 31 Oct 19 - 07:16 AM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM

"Then why raise libraries ?"

Jim - do what...??? you actually really don't care...!!!???????

Why would that even need explaining to you...???
as it's so obvious to any small UK town
that no longer has a public library stocked with Trad Folk CDs/LPs,
amongst everything else that is now taken away from ordinary UK citizens
seeking free self-education in austere tory Britain...

Maybe, living so long in Ireland has detached you too much from our UK reality...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM

It's no sin to dislike some of the source or revival singers, PFR. Although the way some go on you would think so...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:58 PM

I don't recall ever hearing Harry Boardman on South West England TV or Radio One back in the 1970s...???

Though I'd be surprised if Brenda Wooton got much media exposure up north...???

Earlier today, I asked Alexa to play any of his tracks.. but not available for streaming...

So I found and bookmarked some of his songs on youtube,
but the one I had a quick sample taste listen too didn't appeal to me too much.
I'll try some more later...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM

Fine Jim. Whatever. You are the ultimate arbiter not only of what is folk music but also what passes as humour. It must be tough having all that responsibility. I hope that you are up to the job. Good luck.

Now, back to the thread, have you managed to find anything to dispute my claim that good quality folk music can be found anywhere in England, any day of the week and any time of year?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM

"Jim - yeah.. but.. this thread aint about Ireland..."
Then why raise libraries ?
Ireland is an example of how the fortunes of traditional music can be turned when everybody thought it was finished
Our work shows that English and Irish traditions are very similar - dying scene can learn from a growing one - surely ?
I believe Ireland can learn from Britain - nowadays that seems to be confined to what to avoid
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM

Jim - yeah.. but.. this thread aint about Ireland...

[though ok.. Northern Ireland still counts as being in the UK for the time being...]


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:49 PM

Right I'll say this just one last time.

I AM NOT DENIGRATING HARRY BOARDMAN AS A PERSON OR EVEN AS A PERFORMER.

It that clear enough for everyone, he may well have been a truly wonderful man, I didn't know him that well.

All I was saying was that he was known as Harry Boredom.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:44 PM

It was the Mudcat Morris dancers, by the way
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:32 PM

"Jim, as you are so fond of saying, it was a joke"
I say it was a joke whe I intend to eb funny Dave - sorry, I find dating the songs sung in folk clubs over a century out of date is asun funny as it gets - but not uncommon in discussions like these which basically are about folk song proper being forced out to make room for pop-type songs

Jim - so what happens to Trad Folk CD and LP collections when local tory councils close down the public libraries...???
I don't know and I don't really care - there's not a chance of that happening in a County that has come to respect its traditional music and song as not only a peice of its heritage but also a massive drawer for visitors who wish to become involved
WE have vistors all the year round in this one-street town who come to listen to the music (from four to six nights a week) depending on the weather
Our stuff is lodged firmly in Arts Council-supported archives so if anything hpppens, we won't be around to see it

I'm not exactly Morris Dancing's greatest fan, but I was watching 'Bargain Hunt' yesterday when they showed a lovely section on the custom - it struck me what a great attraction it would be to visitors if it was presented for visitors without compromising it
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:24 PM

Now if Bulmer's estate were to realise the benefit's of existing internet based technology,
and even just offer a balance of free taster and subscription playlists...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM

Jim - so what happens to Trad Folk CD and LP collections
when local tory councils close down the public libraries...???

There's not much choice left then, apart from big global internet corporation's 'free' playlists...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM

I'm very disappointed that people are starting to throw insults about again. Please let's keep it civil and respectful of each others' views even when we disagree.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:59 PM

"How is saying that more people go by Amazon's categories than by anyone else's be a joke?"
Totally agree
There's nothing funny about the British people being mislead aby a iant company - especially one with an iffy reputation like Amazon

"Bumper book of laughs", 1928, "
Sums up the respect for "The Voice of the People" some folkies seem to display, I suppose
And another one leaps out of the closet
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:54 PM

Sorry Dick. Your saying "ha ha, the way of the gnome,is more like it" seems to indicate that you thought it was funny.

How is saying that more people go by Amazon's categories than by anyone else's be a joke? Must be one of those deep meaningful things that only clever people understand.

Your "throwaway" may have been funny once but after the 1000th time it gets a bit monotonous. Mind you, I suppose at traditional folk clubs only jokes as listed in the the "Bumper book of laughs", 1928, are permitted.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM

dave, humour is subjective it was not a joke, however yor statenment about amazon is a joke but not very funny,
here is a good throwaway line that is appropiate for the insignificant twerp who attacked harry boardman { when they circumsised him they threw away the wrong bit.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:41 PM

"I have never heard sung in the local clubs "
Me neither - I'd walk over broken glas to hear a half decent rendition of The Battle of Otterburn
Many of the Wiki list are half decent folk songs - if they are no longer relevant - fine, but I can't see many that aren't
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:17 PM

"I'm sure you do understand how much your pride in such a statement marginalises you.."
If I chose what I listened to based on what other people do I'd line up to be sheared regularly
I know what folk song sounds like - little there does
We've never managed to draw many teenagers in to folk and I certainly wouldn't wish to con them by pretending it's something else
We have too many adults with those misconceptions
I can remember cries of "wheve cracked the teenage market" when Shirley Ellis took 'Rubber Dolly' into the charts - a perfectly good black US children's song
Nobody stayed to listen to the rest on offer
Folk song will sing or swim on its own merits - personally I would rather see it sink than be presented as something else and create even more confusion
THIS IS THE THING I'M HOPING WILL HAPPEN
MAYBE WE'LL SEE A BIT MORE OF THIS
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:09 PM

Looking through the Wiki lists I estimate about 75 percent of the songs given on the British, Roud,and Cornish lists I have never heard sung in
the local clubs I have been to over the years. I have heard a great number of trad and contempory (in the folk Style such as MacColl)far more than the material Jim deplores.
I think most attempts to produce a list of what people consider folk songs are subject to the writers own opinion and largely a waste of paper.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM

"safekeepig".. oops.. I corrected one mispilleng to only make it even worse...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM

"Just been through the list - out of 50 there are about five I'd walk as far as King Georges Park to listen to free
Jim
"

Jim - I'm sure you do understand how much your pride in such a statement marginalises you..
Rendering you an irrelevence to most UK teenagers who might take an interest in folk music in 2019.

Which is a shame, because your legacy, your work, your recordings, your archives and memories, are invaluable...

But being positive and optimistic, even if you make yourself so difficult for UK youth to relate to,
the institutions you donate your life's work to for safekeepig
will hopefully provide accessable oportunites for future generations to gain inspiration from...

You'll always deserve credit and respect for this...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 11:29 AM

Some on The Wiki list would be grand if anybody sang the stuff
Someone needs to hand it around the clubs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM

Just been through the list - out of 50 there are about five I'd walk as far as King Georges Park to listen to free
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 11:13 AM

How about wiki for a list.? I cannot find much to argue about there so I will only book the 5 minute argument room


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:British_folk_songs


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM

"Just that most people "
Most people were never involved in folk Dick - we are talking about a minute and diminishing minority
same with you Dave "95%" wouldn't have to queue to fill a telephone box the way things are going
The Amazon list is depressingly appalling - if I'd have been aware of it I would have put it up to make my case
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:59 AM

You need to work on your jokes, Dick. That last one was ok but lacked a vital ingredient. The funny bit at the end :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM

.. and mising completely from any playlists is the massive and important lost Bulmer hoard...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM

I did say I am not saying it is right, Ray. Just that most of the general public, as opposed to anyone familiar with folk, would believe Amazon.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM

To the vast majority of people, and I reckon that could easily be 95%, the Amazon categorisation of folk is a much better indication than anyone else's. I am not saying it is right. Just that most people would believe Amazon over you, Jim. Sorry but that is just the way of the world.
ha ha, the way of the gnome,is more like it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

Jim - not 'my' list..

But Amazon UK's..
whether the many different folk lists are compiled by humans or AI algarythms, I do not know...???

On page 3..

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-60s-Folk-Revival/dp/B07P7HV2SN/ref=sr_1_39?qid=1572533287&refinements=p_n_format_browse-bin%3A5685


"Best of the 60s Folk Revival
2 hrs 44 mins, 50 songs
Curated by Amazon's Music Experts
"

When I was a young teenager, the nearest big town library had shelves of Topic and other niche lable Folk LPs..

Now for better or worse / like it or lump it,
kids taking their first independent steps in discovering folk have Amazon music, spotify, youtube.. etc...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM

Whoa Amazon's categorisation is a load of tosh compared to what "we" are talking about here

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM

To the vast majority of people, and I reckon that could easily be 95%, the Amazon categorisation of folk is a much better indication than anyone else's. I am not saying it is right. Just that most people would believe Amazon over you, Jim. Sorry but that is just the way of the world.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:40 AM

Jack, I think the position is different in England. Scotland has a strong sense of its own identity and culture, and has institutions which support those as well as more informal networks. The same applies to Northumbria.

The same can't be said for the rest of England. A few universities may offer opportunities to study folk music but that's about it. I may well be mistaken, but judging by the course details on its website the main undergraduate degree seems to put as much weight on world and 20th/21st century popular music as it does on the "music of these islands". It has modules on Baroque opera, hip hop and DJing but nothing which expressly addresses English music.

Down here it is left largely to enthusiasts and whilst many do excellent work it is inevitably localised.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:39 AM

I certainly agree that folk song and music is about attracting the audience or even supporters and as I have said before the different facets of folk song and music have their own devotees and audience

The folk clubs of old had a weekly following, many of them having regular if not weekly guests ~ these guests varied from ppl like Tony Rose and Nic Jones to Tony Capstick and Derek Brimstone and Jasper Carott ~ certainly the 1970s were made up of younger audience and knowledge of the traditional singers repertoire was embryonic ~ Fred Jordan I saw a number of times over the years at clubs and festivals ~ the Yetties worked hard and travelled to clubs.

There are a good number of younger artists doing the rounds with lots to offer ~ Hannah James, Eliza Carthy, Nancy Kerr and Jon Boden and many more

I checked the website of Leeds College of music this morning and was pleased to see their curriculum and list of lecturers and included Jamie Roberts and Katriona Gilmore (past graduates) who are very popular and doing regular gigs at concert venues ~ the indicator of the future I suspect

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

Had a dip into your playlist PFR
Would be interested to be directed to anything resembling folk
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:24 AM

"Northumbria part of Scotland- wot??"
Who knows what's going to happen after Brexit - the way things are going I can see Devon and Cornwall applying to join as aprt of independent Scotland - Northumbria h=jut has to take an eraser and rub out the line on the map
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM

Back to "The current state of folk music in UK"...

A UK teenager becoming intersted in folk music can ask Amazon's Alexa
to play any of these...

Folk Playlists 2019


Clicking on the pictures reveals the tracks and artists currently 'curated' as "folk" music by Amazon...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM

Northumbria part of Scotland- wot??
Might accept the reverse, especially as your capital city is named after a Northumbrian king....


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM

"I'm genuinely asking Jim to try to shift his focus, and indicate how he'd be a positive influence on potentially embryonic young UK folkies in 2019"
I' have done this over and over again Jack
I see youngsters with potential being drawn into a star system ans being encouraged to be 'performaers' rather than participants in the folk scene
I actually produced an example of what I mean - a superb television programme on one of Ireland's most important collectors followed by another of performances of some of Sam Henry's most important songs, over-accompanied, with the their words drowned out largely by electronic soup - as far from the original singer's intention as you could imagine
I listen to the English and Irish folk awards with the same impression

I've seen youngsters here in Ireland come to the music with respect and perform it with high skill and have read postings by you denigrating what's happening on the Irish scene
Sorry - you seem to be wanting it both ways
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM

The audience is a fickle beast. If going out for entertainment they expect to be entertained. If they want education they go to night school. With venues shrinking due to pub closures, the breathalyser, possibly greater distances to travel, etc, etc if the audience is paying they have a right to be discerning. For sessions the motivation is different, although the same constraints apply. Compared to 50years ago the average pub business model has had to change drastically. Letting a room out for simply alcohol sales for folkies is not going to be a money spinner, it is more likely a loss maker.
When taliking about folk are we
Talking about the number of venues
the size of the audience
the number of participants
the number of session both music and singarounds
performance of a largely moribund genre
or are we PC and inclusive of contemporary folk, and even the odd pop song such as Yesterday or Those were the days
In the UK several universities offer undergraduate and postgraduate degrees in folk music. THis suggests the subject has more vibrancy than some would admit.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM

I'm genuinely asking Jim to try to shift his focus, and indicate how he'd be a positive influence on potentially embryonic young UK folkies in 2019...?????

We're obviously never going to get anything helpful from that direction, and JoeG of the original question wasn't asking him.

So. Up here in Scotland it isn't very difficult. If you want to find out about traditional music and song there are lots of people who can give helpful information and constructive advice: Steve Byrne, Chris Wright or Cathlin Macaulay in Edinburgh come to mind. For instrumental playing, each instrument has its own network, and it's easy enough to find helpful people for fiddle, bagpipes, accordion or harp. Archives for sound, paper and video are easy to access and use (except for Edinburgh University thanks to its jobsworth management). Everything has got much more convenient over the last generation - the opportunities to perform may not be getting better at any great rate (they are at least getting more varied), but for finding out WHAT to perform, you can find what you want without negotiating self-righteous petty megalomaniacs - there have been a few and still are, but they're avoidable.

Performers under 30 know this and know where to look.

From what I know about Northumbria it's pretty similar down there (it's really part of Scotland anyway).

Is it so different for someone wanting to make their way in trad music in the Faragian Caliphate? I kinda doubt it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:57 AM

"Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger and Rod Strewart to name but 3 would disagree with you, Jim."
All of whom have spent a large slice of their lives perfecting their art in contrast to some of the pathetically incompetent attempts I have witnessed at trying to emulate them at folk clubs

Pop and folk come out of totally different stables - style, function and purpose is not only different but is often contradictory
Pop is non-narrative and repetitive - music rather than word based
Whatever the composers may wish to convey, unless it is profitable to the predatory music industry it doesn't get a look-in - this is a precondition of a song becoming pop(ular)
That is as about as far away from folk song as you can possibly get

Howard
The 'Horse music clubs' were based on the 'anything goes' policy of far too many of them
Nobody objected to an occasional departure but when it became a set policy to flood your evenings with non-folk many people found themselves down in the bar with occasional trips upstairs to see if any of the songs they thought they were going to hear were being sung
Our choice of what we wanted to listen to had been taken away

Regarding taste
I love Haydn and Mozart and jazz and early Sinatra - and that Peggy Lee -mmmmm!! but I wouldn't expect to hear any of these at a folk club but I used to know where to go if that's what I was looking for

Can I say something about the nature of this thread
Of course it's fractious - any serious discussion about the state of folk song will inevitably become heated because of the present state of the scene (no-I am not the only one who feels angry about what has happened to the scene -- those thousands that walked away from it didn't just drift into the stratosphere)
Some people have spent more time tryng to close this thread down than they have contributing to it - that has become a more and more common phenomenon on this forum
Mudcat has racked up more folk song no-go areas that it has opened new subjects - MacColl, Definition, now the club scene (if we're not careful)

I joined this forum to exchange ideas with people who shared my devotion to folk song - I was introduced to the ideas of people like Malcolm Douglas, Sandy Paton, and Brian Peters and some of the Scots singers and songmakers who used to post regularly
Posters like that have grown less and less and the attitude to serious discussion of traditional song has become more and more openly hostile
That cannot be right for a forum that describes itself as it does

Far from discussions like this being closed down, they need to become a permanent feature of this forum unless we want it to become a part of the malaise that is now infecting the folk scene
I am left feeling uncomfortably unwelcome whenever I say what I have to say about folk song
I am fully aware that I sometimes overstate my case, but, despite accusations to the contrary, I try to avoid losing my rag and insulting people - I damn well wish others would grant me the same courtesy
I've done my homework and served a long enough apprenticeship in folk song to have a degree of confidence in what I say - if I am wrong, I expect a little more than personal abuse and derision (which reached new depths recently when my family life was dragged into it (un-commented on by those who are happy to join in the kicking sometimes)
If I can no longer discuss folk song seriosly I'll piss off below the line and leave you all to it.

I treasured the friendships I have made on this forum and, even more, what I have learned from being able to take part, but I am far too old to go tip-toeing gingerly through the minefield that has been laid around some of the subjects I hold as important
There - that's my "rant" for the time being
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM

I'm coming to the conclusion - this isn't really about the artists.

Its about the audiences.

Something none of us can control. Put up the sign folk club, and what turns up, turns up.

If you don't like what turns up. try again somewhere else. if nowhere suits you - maybe its you who's the problem..


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM

I would direct him to the version known as the braes of bal quidder,but before that i wou advise him to work on his guitar technique, learn some melody picking either carter style [ eg maybelle carter donovan] or piedmont [etta baker, missipi john hurt].
improve his diction, no need for american accent[he is not american]. school report, has potential should improve diction and sing in natural voice acct work and harder on guitar even experiment with diferent open tunings, or learn to flatpick like doc watson or malcolm price.
if he had not had a number of hits i would give him a floor spot but not a gig, would suggest he learned the banjo or the concertina and i would tell him to buy one of my song accompaniment tutors. I would advise him to always remember to accompany the song but not let the instrument force the accompaniment, in that respect he is ok, better than that fellow you put up he used a feckin drum machine.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:45 AM

Thanks for the clarification Jim. I thought I had spent the last 50 years going to folk clubs, whereas in fact they were all "horse music clubs". No wonder we are at cross purposes.

In the parallel universe I apparently move in I find plenty of traditional folk music. I am unable to comment on "pop pap" because I can't recall the last time I heard anything meeting that description in a folk club. I do hear some contemporary songs, but resembling folk rather than pop. I have very occasionally heard pop songs given a folk treatment, but usually very well performed, and certainly not often enough to make me think that proper folk music is being driven out.

By the way, one of my bandmates who is a very fine fiddler and performer of mainly traditional music and song is also a heavy metal fan.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM

That sort of stuf f is beyond people of our age

I think Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger and Rod Strewart to name but 3 would disagree with you, Jim. Are you seriously suggesting that those of us in our later years should stick to music that has been around since Adam was a lad and have nothing to do with anything produced recently? If so, you may as well have me out down now!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

Thanks for the humour Vic
Personally, i think your "turgid and insult-strewn" needs to be addressed elsewhere - I havee insuted nobody but have neen the constant victim of it for daring to challenge some of the ideas that have sent most dedicated folkies running for the hills
Your myopic choice of your targets has become a feature of your postings and your failure to acknowledge apologies does you no credit
I feel as necessary to repeat things I have said as often as people claim I haven't replied to things I have - but then again, that must be difficult for a myopic to spot
If an important issue gets dealt with it's worth repeating a hundred times
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM

Jim wrote:-
he went down a bomb (especially when a couple of students sitting on the stage managed to set the curtains on fire while trying to light up a splif as he reached the end of 'The Flying Cloud'

Now I would suggest that a rather than the metaphor used; and given the context of this sentence, it would have been better to use a simile and make the phrase - he went down like a house on fire (especially.... etc. perhaps extending it to incorporate a development of the simile/metaphor into clouds of smoke and 'The Flying Cloud'.

Just suggestions - and an attempt to insert humour into a particularly turgid and insult-strewn section of a depressing and repetitive thread.

Right! Creative Writng lesson over, let's get back to the important back-biting.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM

From the lungs
The people I know tend to carry an air supply around with them in case they need it
The technique was devised to use the air in the most efficient way to meet the singers needs - coupled with the relaxation exercises it enables you to handle long lines without having to take a break
I have never used it publicly, but have constantly done so while practicing - it's proving invaluable at the moment with a difficult version of 'Banks of Newfoundland' - the lungs aren't what they used to be

"Le Petomaine."
I very much doubt if the technique would be of use to you as you appear to produce most of your utterances from the orifice that particular gentleman specialised in :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:30 AM

'Air through the body into the mouth ?'

It's called breathing out.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:16 AM

"sitting back to front of a chair was a technique, devised in Theatre Workshop, to allow a clear flow of air through the body into the mouth - a form or relaxation, particularly useful in handling long-line songs"

Air through the body into the mouth ?

Which orifice was used for the intake?

One wonders if they were inspired by Le Petomaine. The result was sometimes similar.


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