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The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 09:17 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 19 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 19 - 08:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 01 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 09:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 09:22 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 PM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 19 - 08:11 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:06 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 07:29 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 31 Oct 19 - 06:32 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 06:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 19 - 05:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 04:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 31 Oct 19 - 03:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 19 - 03:41 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:47 AM

With respect to the OP, my view (and I don't intend to read any response that Jim Carroll posts, because too often experience them as bullying or generally belligerent in tone) is in agreement with the thought expressed above that the discussion title might not have been the perfect springboard for discussion. Moreover, I will also add that very often the concepts we are using are in some sense 'theoretical' rather than 'factual' or 'definitional'. Moreover, these and other concepts are also at times blurring historical reality, which was mentioned above.

Partly it depends on how long your historical view is. I have just read two books on the history of Scotland, one on the Vikings and one on the Anglo Saxons. And of course I have read more history than this.

Just because today we have a clear geographical sense of where Scotland, England and the island of Ireland, together with the border across it when the UK ends and the Republic of Ireland begins, it does not mean that if we go back historically and culturally the same borders applied.

And if (big if and I'm not sure how far I subscribe, especially if the argument is one about pure orality of cultural transmission) we apply these same labels and areas to whatever cultural practices existed in the past we are likely to be going wrong.

To give a micro example, I recently learned that the word 'craik' which people I know use almost as in indicator of Irish ethnicity comes from 'Anglish' via Scotland, and was popularised by some TV programme mid-29th century.

So for years history books have been telling as that the tribe known as the Scotti (that may not be spelled correctly) actually came from the island of Ireland. There were kingdoms that straddled the borders over water, including one of Viking dominance and, as I understand it, earlier Celtic ones. So a neat Scotland/Ireland/England distinction falls down. Neither was Scotland as monolithic as all that. It is believed that the people in the far North East spoke a different form of Gallic to those in the West. At the time of the 'Anglo Saxon' invasion/immigration, the Angles came to occupy much of what is lowland Scotland as well as England, hence the language.

For a long time, the Church in Ireland was not the Church of Rome. There was a synod at Whitby. So many concept we now take for granted, such as Roman Catholicism in Ireland are on a long view, reflections of cultural interchange via one route or another, in more or less violent ways in different contexts. Ironically in the theory of the middle ages rulers got their legitimacy from God via the Pope who authorised the Anglo Norman invasions of Ireland.

Part of what led to this line of thinking is the use of the term 'indigenous' by somebody above. This reminds me of the sort of cultural threat that the far right assert hangs over 'British culture' and the young far right who claim, virtue signalling their patriotism, that this is under threat. One young acoustic song=writer I know of posted a poem amid he songs including the phrase 'kick a Moslem' or some such, and actively supports Tommy Robinson and the far right party supported by Morrisey (an interesting example of cultural interchange as his Irish roots are something he has commented upon). I think we need to be careful.

And nobody here has posted anything about the people in the UK playing or drawing upon folk music that is not 'indigenous' in the sense intended by the original poster. Not to mention the overwhelmingly male posters. Where are the traditional lullabies?

My understanding is that nobody knows much about what music people outside churches and the educated elite were making in England in the past. My belief is that some 'definitions' put forward of folk music and better described as 'theories' because they beg so many questions about what happened when and how far back practices observed in the 20th century, all too often by researchers whose research methods seem almost designed to pollute their ethnographical reports.

What is plain is that some people claim that their favoured definition is the one that has always been used, and this is so far from the truth that it is difficult to escape the thought that such claims are used as some sort of conversational battering ram.

I agree with some posters in that cannot see how the state of clubs related to the state of folk music as this is defined in some definitions. A revival seems to me to be something different from a tradition. I could stuff a chicken so that it looks lifelike and leave it on the kitchen table for all to admire: it could not be said that I had 'revived' the chicken.

I have seen some very enjoyable acoustic music recently that I suppose is folk, some from China, some from Iran. This is the sort of 'folk scene' we might usefully be promoting, I believe.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM

"RTE & BBC Alba - & very good it is too."
It is of course Jim
The fact that there is so much good tratitional music (and song) ifs available in Ireland at the present time makes it a little hard to keep up with where it's coming from - we're certainly spoiled for choice sometime
It's heartening that, by and large many of the programmes may be hosted by well-known names (like Julie Fowlis) quite often they concentrate on lesser-known singers and musicians
The Seamus Ennis dedication was an example - a programme dedicated to possibly Ireland's finest piper which concentrated on the Hebridean an Irish source singers
It could so easily have been (yet another) hour of Ennis's own musicianship
TG4 specialiased in local sessions and events
Thanks for clearing up my point
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:17 AM

However I cannot begin to imagine what it might cost to digitise all this and make it available.

A worthy candidate for a lottery grant for some enterprising person.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM

On the topic of libraries, I know that Essex County Record Office has many hours of reel-to-reel recordings of evenings at Chelmsford Folk Club (both guests and floor singers) and a separate extensive collection of recordings of folk club and other folk events. However I cannot begin to imagine what it might cost to digitise all this and make it available.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:54 AM

Just from my own knowledge of my local area (which itself isn't comprehensive) I can see that the Living Traditions lists are far from being complete.

It is probably impossible to know how many clubs and other folk events there might be. Lots of smaller events are still publicised by word of mouth or very local advertising and may not have a web presence. I know of one local folk evening which is publicised through the pub's website and doesn't show up if you google "folk club" I am confident that any attempts to calculate the number of clubs will substantially underestimate the correct figure.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM

Ah thanks Dave - yes I see now! Thought it was odd!

Whoever that particular Guest was needs to read the posts on here more closely or just save all our time by not commenting


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM

Jim Carroll

You mention N. Ireland tv but I think you'll find most of the Irish/British trad music co-operation is between RTE & BBC Alba - & very good it is too.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:01 AM

Dick wrote:-

look at irish folk awards and then see the difference with the english folk awards , that is the relevance comparing one country that is closer to its indigenous roots and the uk which has moved further away from oits indigenous roots

Dick, this would only be true if the awards had any relevance, which in my opinion they do not. The organisers are a self-appointed coterie of interested parties who decide themselves who the awards should go to without any reference to public opinion and who have their own axes to grind.
What you are saying, Dick, is that the Irish candidate selection cartel is more inclined to the tradition than the English candidate selection cartel.

As for the Scottish Awards, we have heard that they are a meaningless boondoggle of mutual backpatting.. Now I don't speak jackcamipnese but I am assuming that this means the Scottish shortlists and awards, like the other two are selected by a very small panel with no sense of how the judges are appointed.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM

No one "hacked in", Joe. They copied Dick's comment into their own post and then tagged their own comments on to that. Both posts are still there to view.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM

"How can you 'seem to remember' something that you didn't witness?"
Of course I didn't witness it, but I actually have recordings from the period - one done by the BBC
MacColl was quite clear what he believed was happening to The Ballads and Blues when he wrote "Why I am starting a New Club" for Dallas' Folk magazine - we have it here
I knew Ewan and those around him long enough to have some picture
Even one folkie who was not particularly sympathetic wto Ewan's ideas wrote in his reminiscences of the period that the B and B was becoming a bit of a free-for-all
He told the story of Nixon doing a runner with the club's finances in the same piece

I still find it amazing how people who revel in MacColl Urban Legends leap on their high chairs demanding proof when their own flavours-of-the-month are criticised

From Iains's list, it seems pretty conclusive that there are less than 200 clubs in Britain (and I never really think of Northern Ireland as being part of the British scene - for historical reasons and because of the fact that Ieland never really had a strong club ethos)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM

Thanks Djck. I thought it was unusual as you have made some helpful and interesting contributions to the debate

Wonder how they hacked in? Very sad and potentially very disruptive. It's already too easy to fall out here without people attributing comments to others!

I agree with your later comment about the north east of England being very strong. My first club was the Hartlepool Folk Club at the Nursery - I've lost touch with what has happened up there in detail but many of the clubs that were around in my early days still seem to be going strong


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM

"I see seem to remember The Ballads and Blues was beginning to look like that when MacColl left"

Jim,

I just cannot ever take you seriously. You have said in the past that you had never been to the Ballads & Blues Club but your future wife had. The above event took place in 1961 when I believe you were still up North not having moved to London until 1966.

How can you 'seem to remember' something that you didn't witness?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM

I am talking about england as a whole, in the north east the folk scene is stronger imo, there are more tradtional bsed folk clubs with strong resident singers, however Newcastle bridge folk club apparantly gets more people when they book local acts that is an intersting phenomenon, the conclusion could be viewd in different ways ,it could be inward looking,or it could be a sign of a strong local scene


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM

According to the living tradition there are 178 folkclubs in the uk. They do not claim the list is complete. (6 in N. Ireland)


Interesting resources:
one among many(not yet online)
Jim Carroll & Pat MacKenzie's Collection

http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/magazine/articles

Sessions and useful links

http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/session-index

In Ireland the listing is different (apples and oranges)


http://www.folkandhoney.co.uk/ireland/venues/


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 AM

joe g , i reckon someomne hacked in and added the bottom bit


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:35 AM

yes joe g, that was me, but this below was not so i do not know what is going on
Then if you're comparing England with Ireland, you should have titled your discussion "The Current State of Folk Music in England", which I'm fairly certain is not the same as the state of folk music in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
There's not a single person here who is in a position to judge "the current state of folk music in the UK". For that to be meaningful, you would have to know what's going on in Shetland down to Lands End, and all points in between. If anyone has that experience let them come forward.
What's happening her is that people are reporting their own personal local experience and extrapolating it to cover the whole of the UK, which is meningless.
It was a badly-worded "discussion" in the first place, and nobody's any the wiser since it started.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM

I know everything you say is true Guest - England has a great deal to learn from what if happening in parts of Scotland (I would love to believe "all of Scotland)
I am constantly turning on Northern Irish television and seeing programmes of Sc
ots and Irish singers co-operating in musical projects) - Julie Fowlis is a regular and our Clare Musician Edel Fox made one a couple of weeks ago
The Scots have a tradition to be proud of - hopefully there are more people recognizing that fact than there are in England at present
Lang may your lums.... whatever !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM

I'm assuming by the use of capitals that was you Dick? Apologies if not but Guest 31st October wasn't the person who titled this thread. That was me. Thanks for the criticism anyway. For a badly titled thread it has received over 800 responses - ok some were pointless arguments but I personally think there has been a lot of interesting reading


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM

no guest 31 OCT
i love scottish music, i am critical of how English FOLK MUSIC HAS MOVED AWAY FROM ITS ROOTS ,ENGLAND IS PART OF THE UK SO MY COMMENTS ARE RELEVANT, IT IS NOT A COMPETITION YOU SILLY BILLY BUT A COMPARISON
Then if you're comparing England with Ireland, you should have titled your discussion "The Current State of Folk Music in England", which I'm fairly certain is not the same as the state of folk music in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
There's not a single person here who is in a position to judge "the current state of folk music in the UK". For that to be meaningful, you would have to know what's going on in Shetland down to Lands End, and all points in between. If anyone has that experience let them come forward.
What's happening her is that people are reporting their own personal local experience and extrapolating it to cover the whole of the UK, which is meningless.
It was a badly-worded "discussion" in the first place, and nobody's any the wiser since it started.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

Dick
Thanks for that - I'll look them up and if I ahve any trouble locating them, I'll get back to you
They're all digitised and listed so it would b e a formality to just pass them on
Who's in charge of The Norfolk Archive?
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM

jim,perhaps norfolk county sound archives might be ther lace for Walterand Harry cox recordings


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM

Jack you are right there are more important things than handing out gongs, i thought that comparing the irish and english awards might throw light on each countries state of folk music and i think to some extent it does,of course that is not a reason for having the silly awrds in the first place


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM

PFR
I have to say you weer right to a degree to say I didn't know the full situation of the local libraries in Britain - so I looked it up, and was horrified to see the level they have been driven too by the Government's..... - some would say 'neglect' but I believe it's more deliberate that that - one of the tenets of the Slave Trade was that it is dangerous to educate those you would dominate
THE SITUATION TEN MONTHS AGO
I'm grateful for the education

That aside, it doesn't stop any enterprising group from going higher up and attempting to involve the County or even National libraries in folk song, as we did in Clare
This is an example of what might be attempted, instigated by two friends, Michel Fortune and Aileen Lambert, from Wexford
TRADITIONAL FOLK SONG PROJECTS

Mick and Aileen devised a number of projects, got together groups of singers, (good but not necessarily widely known and certainly not professional performers), approached The National Library of Ireland, who agreed to sponsor them in taking their work around venues in various parts of Ireland at irregular intervals (not a 'tour') and putting on mini-concerts to schools and colleges.
Each one had an increasingly positive effect, the best know and most successful was the 'Man Woman and Child' Project
The immediate effect was the marked increase in the singing of Child Balllads in clubs and sessions, almost unheard of previously.
I was inspired to fulfil a long-time intention of gathering all the Child Ballads that had been captured from the older generation of singers - I've now been working on it for over two years and am hoping to finish it in the next few months
Then I will get all the example I have found, get singers for the ones from print, and pass them on to whoever is interested (probably via PCloud, but I ham hoping that ITMA might consider putting them on line for me

I see no reason why similar projects can't be taken, say to The National Sound Archive at the British Library and try to win their interest
The British Library has, at long last, shown an interest in folk song, thanks to pioneers like Lucy Duran who herself a renowned field worker
This would fit in perfectly with the B.L's putting collections of folk song and music on line, as it has been doing for some years now.

It needs to be confined to folk song as documented and not "I don't know what folk song is" wishy-washiness, which will give it roots in the academic world while at the same time showing the 'entertainment' value of the people's culture.
Its aim should not be to provide work for established singers, but to give the job to folkies who are there for the love and promotion of songs, not for earning a wage or making their name - hopefully there are enough competent and dedicated singers to put together such schemes without them costing a fortune -
Groups could be put together in various parts of Britain rather than them being centralised in London and having to travel to the venues - but they would need to be well-co-ordinated
By using non-stars you would be introducing songs showing you don't have to have been singing before audiences for years - every man and woman a singer (if they work at it)
Mick and Aileen's work did much to increase folk song nationally in Ireland - I wonder if anybody had such dedication in Britain

Ideally, EFDSS not only could, but should do it - I doubt if they would be interested
I thought of broaching the idea with The Traditional Song Forum when we were in Belfast a couple of weeks ago but didn't get the chance.
Something needs to be done, and quick, if Britain is not going to lose its greatest cultural asset
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:28 PM

Why.. it's almost as if the tories don't want ordinary small town citizens
to educate themselves.....?????

Unless they fork out hard earned cash to commercial tuition companies
selling vocational courses the tories approve of...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:22 PM

Jim - We moved out of London nearly 20 years ago back to tory dominated south west England....

The library here and in the next town down the road have both been closed permanently in the last 2 or 3 years..
We used to have a substantial CD collection,
accumulated over years by a Librarian
who was obviously a UK Folk Music enthusiast...
Also a lot of British folk books,
I know that because of all the late fines I used to pay on them...

The loss of such resources is far more immediately important to us out here in the provinces,
than any big specialist library in the capital city...

It's great that those special academic collection libraries continue to flourish,
but they are not so relevant to ordinay folks as our local public lending libraries were for so many decades...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM

"What am I supposed to be making an excuse about...!!!???"
The state of local libraries maybe?
Again, if I mistook your meaning, I'm sorry
County libraries are the places to aim for

"why you are being so argumentative about the forced closure of UK public libraries,"
I'm not - I know what's happening - it's happening to a degree over here with local libraries being centralised in Dublin, but in my experience some of the larger UK libraries were open (sort of) to expanding their activities
I've lectured on folksong to specialist libraries and the Deptford Library once hosted a day devoted to Travellers which enabled us to bring in singers and storytellers to perform to schoolkids - one of the most memorable days I've ever spent
This is the type of thing that could be done by EFDSS if they cared enough about the music to get up off their arses
Jaysus - how I miss Malcolm Taylor even if his taste in folksong was sometimes a bit iffy)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 PM

""I was just a bit astonished that you'd not give a monkeys about our libraries being cut by tories...???"
Of course I do - but it is not relevant to your excuse (sorry - argument)
"

Jim -"excuse"...???

What am I supposed to be making an excuse about...!!!???

What is it you think my argement is, because I'm buggered if I know..

Have you got me confused with someone else again...???

I seriously can't fathom out what's going on in your head,
why you are being so argumentative about the forced closure of UK public libraries,
and the loss of local small town free to borrow collections of folk music CDs and LPs...??????????????


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:11 PM

Yes there are Scottish folk awards too. Lots of them in countless categories the general public doesn't give a monkey's about. A meaningless boondoggle of mutual backpatting.

There are a lot of things Scottish folk does very well but handing out gongs isn't one of them.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:06 PM

"Obviously you are unaware of this and why should you be but I once lived about two miles from The Theatre Royal, Stratford."
So - I once worked with one of the founders of Theatre Workshop - for over twenty years
What's your point ?
Incidently _ I met both of Ewans wives - three if you count Peggy (who is still a friend)
I've told you what the technique was used for - I use it occasionally - I suggest you do
"You admit that it is second hand knowledge that you have from this side of the Irish Sea."
Did I say that - no - course I didn't
My forays into British clubs is nowhere near as frequent as they once where but every time we visit the UK we make a point of trying to vissit one or two
Impossible in some places as tere are none, but thee ones we have managed (partoicularly that in the home of the English Folk Song and Dance Society) haas confirmed the description of what many have defended here - folk clubs minus folk songs
I see seem to remember The Ballads and Blues was beginning to look like that when MacColl left

"I was just a bit astonished that you'd not give a monkeys about our libraries being cut by tories...???"
Of course I do - but it is not relevant to your excuse (sorry - argument)
I became a member of my local library at the age of 13 and remained one ti;; we left Britain, when I joined The Patrick Hillary Library (Miltown Malbay)
Not having a library would be like having part of my brain removed

I'm rather proud of teh fact that my merchant seaman grandfather helped start the forrst btanch of the seaman's branch of the Worker's Education Association
He later translated several of Shekespear's plays into fluent Scouse and was invited to talk on his interest to students at Stoke on Trent college of (something or other)

""The Voice of the People"?"
Humour or more piss-take I wonder
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:29 PM

no guest 31 OCT
i love scottish music, i am critical of how English FOLK MUSIC HAS MOVED AWAY FROM ITS ROOTS ,ENGLAND IS PART OF THE UK SO MY COMMENTS ARE RELEVANT, IT IS NOT A COMPETITION YOU SILLY BILLY BUT A COMPARISON


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:49 PM

hoot look at irish folk awards and then see the difference with the english folk awards , that is the relevance comparing one country that is closer to its indigenous roots and the uk which has moved further away from oits indigenous roots


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:32 PM

Jim,

Obviously you are unaware of this and why should you be but I once lived about two miles from The Theatre Royal, Stratford.

I wouldn't say that all of this thread was stupid but as with many posts above I can't understand why you think that the situation in Ireland is relevant to what is or is not going on in the UK.

You admit that it is second hand knowledge that you have from this side of the Irish Sea.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM

So what ? It's not an international competition. I believe Scotland has "Folk Awards" too, but obviously they are not worth mentioning - or of course, you are totally dismissive, or more likely, ignorant of them.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:02 PM

Compare the irish folk awards with the uk folk awards in my opinion the irish are closer to the roots of the music


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:18 PM

Hello Hong Kong! What's weather like over there?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:59 PM

hello.. hello.. sorry the signal is breaking up... hello.. hello.. oh sod it.. been cut off...

The peoples voice goes unheard...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:45 PM

Ah, Ok. Is it like "The Voice of the People"?

:D tGs


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 PM

DtG.. I have a "Peoples mobile phone" best value for money budget price smart phone..
A cheap Lenovo/Motorola..

I'd never have one of those flashy conspicious consumption Apples or Samsungs...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM

Jim - we cross posted..

No problems, no sneers ever intended...

I was just a bit astonished that you'd not give a monkeys about our libraries being cut by tories...???

Which you obviously would never seriously mean like that...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM

I'm back on my PC now..

This is a corrected repeat of that post...
=====================================================

Jim - no, I'm not having you lump me in with your perceived enemies..
I've never once before mentioned anything about you living in Ireland
disqualifying you from having an opinion..
Neither am I doing that now..

But here in this thread about the UK,
I can't accept you completely dismissing our problems in England,
while you then continue to bang on about how great Ireland is...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM

"I don't recall any other singers or even Theatre Workshop players adopting this pose"
So you saw their plays and monologues then
This gets stupid
Maccoll used it for the reason he said
We tried it and it worked
It's a part of relaxing the bod i otderr to produce an uncluttered sound - S.W, developed it from the ideas of an expert on relaxation, Nelson Illingworth
Why do you do this Hoot - it really does you no credit
"Jim - no I'm not having you lump me in with your perceived enemies.."
I wouldn't do that P - I have people I disagree with heer but I couldn't very few of them as "enemies" - I leave that to those who consider argument insulting
You mentioned that my "living in Ireland" has put me out of touch with what's happening in British Libraries - maybe I'm knee-jerking in memory of all those who tell me I don't know what's happening on the club scene because I "live in Ireland" - if so, I apologise - (long day and still not shaken off a heavy cold)
I don't regard them "enemies" - just lost sheep in need of a shepherd :-)
Jim   

Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM

You can't afford a mobile phone PFR. They are the province of us nouveu riche middle class folkies... :-P


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM

That should have read "neither am I doing that now"..

Bloody mobile phones...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:43 PM

To Peter Laban,

Thank you for your answer to my query way above but I would just like to point out that "breathing out" does bot bring air INTO the mouth.

I don't recall any other singers or even Theatre Workshop players adopting this pose. But I wonder did Christine Keeler ever sing a folk song???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM

Jim - no I'm not having you lump me in with your perceived enemies..
I've never once before mentioned anything about you living in Ireland disqualifying you from having an opinion..
No idea what doing that now..

But here I can't accept you completely dismissing our problems in England, while you then continue to bang on about how great island is...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:41 PM

I sometimes wonder if some people can actually clean their teeth from the inside.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM

That guest was me pfr..
My mobile phone has signed me out without me realising...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM

Dick - but for folks who grew up never knowing him or his music,
he is still an unknown quantity...

For me personally, it's only since I joined mudcat 15 or so years ago that I've noticed his name mentioned occasionly...

Listening to his recordings is something I now intend to do,
and I'll do it with an open mind,
and come to my own conclusions about how much I enjoy him in 2019...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM

"Why would that even need explaining to you...???
as it's so obvious to any small UK town
that no longer has a public library"
Ennis is a County Town and has taken on the musican and song heritage of the whole county
It has done that because they have been persuaded of its cultural and historical importance - that is never going to happen if the so-called exponents of folk song don't take their responsibilities seriously
It was through the eforst of people like me and Pat, Reg Hall, Malcomlm Taylor and a few others going to the National Sound Archive who, in their turn,, went to the British Library, that Britain Got it's 'Bright Golden Store' online-archive so dion't come the 'living in Ireland' bit please
Scurrying behind "you don't live in England any more" is wearing a little thin
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM

he was known s harry boredom by raggytash and his chums but for many others throughout the uk folk rvival he was a well respected performer, the very fact you call him harry boredom is an insult and a slur on a man who ran a club for many years and who gave the chance to and encouraged many performers such as brian peters myself mark dowding, you are insignificant compared to Harry, when you have acieved half of what he achieved someone might respect you, in the meantime, stop this boring mantra, if you had repeated this slur to my face ,i would have told you in al ess polite manner my opinion of that shitty remark


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