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The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,JoeG 13 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,JoeG 13 Oct 19 - 08:52 PM
Joe Offer 13 Oct 19 - 09:32 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Oct 19 - 10:58 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Oct 19 - 11:10 PM
Joe Offer 14 Oct 19 - 12:09 AM
r.padgett 14 Oct 19 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Sol 14 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Oct 19 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,matt milton 14 Oct 19 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,JoeG 14 Oct 19 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 05:22 AM
Vic Smith 14 Oct 19 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 19 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,PeterC 14 Oct 19 - 06:29 AM
Jack Campin 14 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM
Dave Hanson 14 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,PeterC 14 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Observer 14 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Starship 14 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM
Vic Smith 14 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM
Howard Jones 14 Oct 19 - 08:30 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 08:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Oct 19 - 08:39 AM
Jack Campin 14 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM
Iains 14 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,matt milton 14 Oct 19 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,PeterC 14 Oct 19 - 09:07 AM
Vic Smith 14 Oct 19 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Oct 19 - 09:49 AM
Howard Jones 14 Oct 19 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM
Iains 14 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,Observer 14 Oct 19 - 10:23 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 10:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,PeterC 14 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 14 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Oct 19 - 03:04 PM
Raggytash 14 Oct 19 - 03:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Oct 19 - 05:45 PM
Raggytash 14 Oct 19 - 05:47 PM
Raggytash 14 Oct 19 - 05:54 PM
Raggytash 14 Oct 19 - 05:54 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 19 - 05:55 PM
Jack Campin 14 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Oct 19 - 06:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Oct 19 - 06:29 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Oct 19 - 06:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Oct 19 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Oct 19 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 14 Oct 19 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Oct 19 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,Starship 14 Oct 19 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Sol 14 Oct 19 - 08:26 PM
GUEST 14 Oct 19 - 10:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 03:53 AM
Howard Jones 15 Oct 19 - 04:34 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 19 - 04:42 AM
Iains 15 Oct 19 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 19 - 04:50 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 05:26 AM
Jack Campin 15 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,matt milton 15 Oct 19 - 05:58 AM
Vic Smith 15 Oct 19 - 06:16 AM
Vic Smith 15 Oct 19 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM
Vic Smith 15 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,matt milton 15 Oct 19 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,matt milton 15 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM
Howard Jones 15 Oct 19 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Starship 15 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM
Jeri 15 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Starship 15 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,matt milton 15 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM
Jeri 15 Oct 19 - 09:56 AM
Vic Smith 15 Oct 19 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Oct 19 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Starship 15 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM
Vic Smith 15 Oct 19 - 01:15 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Oct 19 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 01:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Oct 19 - 01:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Oct 19 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 02:45 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Oct 19 - 04:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 15 Oct 19 - 04:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Oct 19 - 05:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 05:56 PM
Jack Campin 15 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 15 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Oct 19 - 06:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Oct 19 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 02:26 AM
GUEST,HiLo 16 Oct 19 - 02:33 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 03:24 AM
The Sandman 16 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Starship 16 Oct 19 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM
GUEST 16 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Starship 16 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 19 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Observer 16 Oct 19 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Peter 16 Oct 19 - 11:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 11:27 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 11:48 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 16 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,HiLo 16 Oct 19 - 12:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM
Allan Conn 16 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM
Howard Jones 16 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM
GUEST 16 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Kenny 16 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 01:56 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 19 - 01:57 PM
Stringsinger 16 Oct 19 - 02:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 03:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Starship 16 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Cj 16 Oct 19 - 04:17 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Cj 16 Oct 19 - 04:38 PM
The Sandman 16 Oct 19 - 04:47 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 19 - 06:33 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Starship 16 Oct 19 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,Observer 17 Oct 19 - 02:39 AM
GUEST 17 Oct 19 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,matt milton 17 Oct 19 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 19 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,CJ 17 Oct 19 - 06:10 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Derrick 17 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,matt milton 17 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Starship 17 Oct 19 - 07:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,HiLo 17 Oct 19 - 10:19 AM
Howard Jones 17 Oct 19 - 10:27 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 10:49 AM
Jack Campin 17 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 17 Oct 19 - 10:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 19 - 11:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 11:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 19 - 12:07 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 19 - 12:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 12:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 02:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM
Jack Campin 17 Oct 19 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Cj 17 Oct 19 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 17 Oct 19 - 05:37 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM
r.padgett 18 Oct 19 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,RA 18 Oct 19 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Kenny 18 Oct 19 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,JoeG 18 Oct 19 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,RA 18 Oct 19 - 05:06 AM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 19 - 06:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 19 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Joe G 18 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM
GUEST 18 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Oct 19 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,HiLo 18 Oct 19 - 02:11 PM
Brian Peters 18 Oct 19 - 02:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Oct 19 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Hilo 18 Oct 19 - 07:04 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,HiLo 18 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM
Joe Offer 18 Oct 19 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,HiLo 18 Oct 19 - 11:07 PM
GUEST,HiLo 18 Oct 19 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,HiLo 18 Oct 19 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Guest Tim 19 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM
GUEST 19 Oct 19 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Sol 19 Oct 19 - 05:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 Oct 19 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Peter 19 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,JoeG 19 Oct 19 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 19 Oct 19 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,JoeG 19 Oct 19 - 07:37 PM
The Sandman 20 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 05:57 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Starship 20 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 12:44 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 12:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 19 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Observer 20 Oct 19 - 01:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Jon 20 Oct 19 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Jon 20 Oct 19 - 02:06 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 03:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Oct 19 - 04:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 19 - 05:20 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 19 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Joe G 20 Oct 19 - 06:50 PM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 19 - 07:22 PM
GUEST 21 Oct 19 - 03:50 AM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 21 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Oct 19 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Oct 19 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Oct 19 - 08:01 AM
Howard Jones 21 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Oct 19 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,no Jim 21 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Oct 19 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,JoeG 21 Oct 19 - 11:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Oct 19 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,JoeG 21 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM
r.padgett 21 Oct 19 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,JoeG 21 Oct 19 - 12:35 PM
Howard Jones 21 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM
The Sandman 21 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Oct 19 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,JoeG 21 Oct 19 - 07:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Oct 19 - 07:28 PM
The Sandman 22 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM
The Sandman 22 Oct 19 - 03:29 AM
The Sandman 22 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,LynnH 22 Oct 19 - 03:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM
Iains 22 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,guest 22 Oct 19 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 22 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM
Howard Jones 22 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 19 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Peter 22 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM
Iains 22 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 22 Oct 19 - 08:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Guest 22 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 19 - 09:30 AM
The Sandman 22 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,JoeG 22 Oct 19 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Oct 19 - 10:28 AM
Iains 22 Oct 19 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Starship 22 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Oct 19 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 22 Oct 19 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,JoeG 22 Oct 19 - 12:11 PM
The Sandman 22 Oct 19 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 19 - 12:56 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 01:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,Peter 22 Oct 19 - 01:21 PM
Iains 22 Oct 19 - 01:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 19 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Joe G 22 Oct 19 - 01:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 02:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 03:16 PM
Vic Smith 22 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Joe G 22 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 19 - 04:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 05:45 PM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 19 - 06:43 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 08:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Oct 19 - 08:59 PM
r.padgett 23 Oct 19 - 02:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 04:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 04:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 04:49 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 19 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 05:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 06:19 AM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM
Howard Jones 23 Oct 19 - 07:16 AM
Jack Campin 23 Oct 19 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Oct 19 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 23 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM
Allan Conn 23 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Allan Conn 23 Oct 19 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 09:13 AM
Jack Campin 23 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 09:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 10:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 10:23 AM
Iains 23 Oct 19 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 23 Oct 19 - 10:52 AM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM
Jack Campin 23 Oct 19 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 11:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 11:49 AM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 19 - 12:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 23 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,JoeG 23 Oct 19 - 12:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,JoeG 23 Oct 19 - 01:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM
r.padgett 23 Oct 19 - 01:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 01:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM
Jack Campin 23 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM
Raggytash 23 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Oct 19 - 02:59 PM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 19 - 03:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 03:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 03:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 03:24 PM
Jack Campin 23 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 04:07 PM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 19 - 04:15 PM
The Sandman 23 Oct 19 - 05:39 PM
Raggytash 23 Oct 19 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Peter 23 Oct 19 - 06:18 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,Joe G 23 Oct 19 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,JoeG 23 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 19 - 08:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 08:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Oct 19 - 08:45 PM
The Sandman 24 Oct 19 - 02:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 19 - 02:28 AM
r.padgett 24 Oct 19 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 19 - 02:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 19 - 03:12 AM
Iains 24 Oct 19 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,P.Dant 24 Oct 19 - 04:27 AM
Jack Campin 24 Oct 19 - 04:43 AM
Joe Offer 24 Oct 19 - 04:54 AM
Iains 24 Oct 19 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 24 Oct 19 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 24 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM
Iains 24 Oct 19 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Starship 24 Oct 19 - 10:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Oct 19 - 12:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Oct 19 - 12:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Oct 19 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Oct 19 - 07:20 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Oct 19 - 11:49 PM
The Sandman 25 Oct 19 - 01:56 AM
The Sandman 25 Oct 19 - 02:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM
Allan Conn 25 Oct 19 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Oct 19 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 08:28 AM
Jack Campin 25 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Oct 19 - 09:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 19 - 09:15 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,patriot 25 Oct 19 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 25 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 11:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 11:55 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 19 - 12:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 12:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 01:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 01:44 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 19 - 01:57 PM
The Sandman 25 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM
Stringsinger 25 Oct 19 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Oct 19 - 02:12 PM
Raggytash 25 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 02:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 02:16 PM
Howard Jones 25 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM
Raggytash 25 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 04:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 19 - 07:02 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 07:32 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,JoeG 25 Oct 19 - 07:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Oct 19 - 08:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 19 - 09:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Oct 19 - 12:05 AM
The Sandman 26 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 03:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 04:27 AM
Iains 26 Oct 19 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Nick 26 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM
The Sandman 26 Oct 19 - 04:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 05:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,JoeG 26 Oct 19 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Peter 26 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 05:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Derrick 26 Oct 19 - 05:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 05:58 AM
Jack Campin 26 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 06:39 AM
Jack Campin 26 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 07:29 AM
Jack Campin 26 Oct 19 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Keith Price 26 Oct 19 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 08:15 AM
Vic Smith 26 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM
Howard Jones 26 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM
r.padgett 26 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM
r.padgett 26 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM
Jack Campin 26 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Oct 19 - 10:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Oct 19 - 10:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 10:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 11:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM
Vic Smith 26 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 19 - 12:06 PM
Vic Smith 26 Oct 19 - 12:26 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 12:47 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 19 - 03:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 03:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM
Jack Campin 26 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM
r.padgett 26 Oct 19 - 03:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 19 - 06:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 19 - 09:43 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 04:30 AM
The Sandman 27 Oct 19 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 04:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 04:52 AM
The Sandman 27 Oct 19 - 05:05 AM
The Sandman 27 Oct 19 - 05:07 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 05:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 05:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 05:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 27 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 27 Oct 19 - 08:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 08:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 09:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 09:22 AM
Howard Jones 27 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 10:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Oct 19 - 10:47 AM
The Sandman 27 Oct 19 - 11:11 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 11:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 19 - 12:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 12:21 PM
Raggytash 27 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 12:39 PM
Howard Jones 27 Oct 19 - 12:40 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM
Raggytash 27 Oct 19 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 12:58 PM
Raggytash 27 Oct 19 - 01:06 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 19 - 01:10 PM
Raggytash 27 Oct 19 - 01:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 01:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Oct 19 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 01:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Oct 19 - 02:09 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 19 - 03:03 PM
Stringsinger 27 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Oct 19 - 08:40 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Oct 19 - 09:30 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 19 - 09:38 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Observer 28 Oct 19 - 04:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Oct 19 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 28 Oct 19 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 05:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Oct 19 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Oct 19 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 06:38 AM
The Sandman 28 Oct 19 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,JoeG 28 Oct 19 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Oct 19 - 08:27 AM
Jeri 28 Oct 19 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Jack Campin 28 Oct 19 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 10:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 11:49 AM
Stringsinger 28 Oct 19 - 12:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 12:39 PM
Vic Smith 28 Oct 19 - 12:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 12:47 PM
Raggytash 28 Oct 19 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 12:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 01:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Oct 19 - 01:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 01:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 01:52 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Oct 19 - 02:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM
Jeri 28 Oct 19 - 02:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 03:18 PM
Raggytash 28 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 03:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 04:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 05:30 PM
The Sandman 29 Oct 19 - 03:00 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM
The Sandman 29 Oct 19 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 04:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 05:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 06:11 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive) 29 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 06:58 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 07:52 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 08:06 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 08:38 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM
Brian Peters 29 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM
GUEST 29 Oct 19 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Starship 29 Oct 19 - 12:06 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 12:52 PM
Stringsinger 29 Oct 19 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Oct 19 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Starship 29 Oct 19 - 03:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Starship 29 Oct 19 - 04:15 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 19 - 04:33 PM
Brian Peters 29 Oct 19 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Joe G 29 Oct 19 - 07:58 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 09:08 PM
The Sandman 29 Oct 19 - 10:10 PM
The Sandman 29 Oct 19 - 10:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 03:23 AM
r.padgett 30 Oct 19 - 03:51 AM
r.padgett 30 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 04:07 AM
The Sandman 30 Oct 19 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 04:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Oct 19 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Oct 19 - 04:54 AM
Howard Jones 30 Oct 19 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,CJ 30 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Guest Tim 30 Oct 19 - 08:42 AM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 09:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 11:54 AM
r.padgett 30 Oct 19 - 12:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 12:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM
The Sandman 30 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 02:37 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 19 - 02:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 03:07 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Oct 19 - 03:57 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 19 - 04:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 04:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Oct 19 - 04:23 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 19 - 04:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
The Sandman 30 Oct 19 - 05:12 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 19 - 05:24 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 19 - 05:31 PM
The Sandman 30 Oct 19 - 05:39 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 19 - 05:52 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM
r.padgett 31 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 04:35 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 04:51 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 04:52 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 04:58 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 05:01 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 05:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 05:29 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 05:34 AM
Howard Jones 31 Oct 19 - 05:45 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Hootennanny 31 Oct 19 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 31 Oct 19 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM
Vic Smith 31 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM
Howard Jones 31 Oct 19 - 08:45 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 09:57 AM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,crumbly 31 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM
r.padgett 31 Oct 19 - 10:39 AM
Howard Jones 31 Oct 19 - 10:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM
r.padgett 31 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 11:29 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Derrick 31 Oct 19 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 12:17 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 12:41 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 01:54 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,JoeG 31 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:44 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 19 - 02:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 02:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 19 - 03:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 31 Oct 19 - 03:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 04:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 04:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 19 - 05:18 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 06:02 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 31 Oct 19 - 06:32 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 06:49 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 19 - 07:29 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:06 PM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 19 - 08:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 09:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 09:28 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:35 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 01 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 19 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 19 - 08:54 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 09:17 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 19 - 10:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 01 Nov 19 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 11:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM
Joe Offer 01 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 03:25 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:38 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:39 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:48 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:52 PM
GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 05:02 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 05:16 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 05:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 05:29 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 05:40 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 05:48 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 05:56 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:06 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:13 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 06:21 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:21 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:28 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 06:32 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 06:41 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:43 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 06:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:57 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 07:01 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 07:03 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 07:06 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 07:23 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:37 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Nov 19 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:51 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 08:56 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 08:59 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 09:06 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 09:21 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 10:14 PM
Nick 01 Nov 19 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 05:12 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 06:29 AM
Jack Campin 02 Nov 19 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Starship 02 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
Dave Hanson 02 Nov 19 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Starship 02 Nov 19 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
r.padgett 02 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 12:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Derrick 02 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Derrick 02 Nov 19 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Derrick 02 Nov 19 - 01:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 01:17 PM
Howard Jones 02 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM
Howard Jones 02 Nov 19 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 02 Nov 19 - 02:15 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 02:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 02:56 PM
r.padgett 02 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 03:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 03:34 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM
Vic Smith 02 Nov 19 - 04:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 19 - 04:33 PM
Vic Smith 02 Nov 19 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Nov 19 - 05:10 PM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 05:27 PM
The Sandman 02 Nov 19 - 06:08 PM
Jack Campin 02 Nov 19 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 07:47 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 08:34 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 19 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Starship 02 Nov 19 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Joe G 02 Nov 19 - 09:55 PM
Stewie 02 Nov 19 - 09:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Nov 19 - 11:09 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 19 - 03:18 AM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 03:44 AM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 04:09 AM
r.padgett 03 Nov 19 - 04:16 AM
r.padgett 03 Nov 19 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 03 Nov 19 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 19 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Nov 19 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Nov 19 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,John Bowden 03 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Nov 19 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Hootennanny 03 Nov 19 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Joe G 03 Nov 19 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Nov 19 - 11:23 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 19 - 11:33 AM
Jeri 03 Nov 19 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Joe G 03 Nov 19 - 11:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Nov 19 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 03 Nov 19 - 12:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 Nov 19 - 12:17 PM
Vic Smith 03 Nov 19 - 12:39 PM
Raggytash 03 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Joe G 03 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM
Vic Smith 03 Nov 19 - 01:09 PM
Vic Smith 03 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 01:31 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 01:52 PM
Raggytash 03 Nov 19 - 02:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 Nov 19 - 02:10 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 02:30 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 19 - 02:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 19 - 03:37 PM
Nick 03 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM
Nick 03 Nov 19 - 04:09 PM
Nick 03 Nov 19 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,ottery 03 Nov 19 - 04:14 PM
Nick 03 Nov 19 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Joe G 03 Nov 19 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,ottery 03 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 03:24 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,Peter 04 Nov 19 - 04:25 AM
r.padgett 04 Nov 19 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 04 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM
Vic Smith 04 Nov 19 - 10:28 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Joe G 04 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM
r.padgett 04 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
Jim Martin 04 Nov 19 - 03:36 PM
Jim Martin 04 Nov 19 - 04:50 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Starship 04 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM
Brian Peters 04 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,Joe G 04 Nov 19 - 07:17 PM
Jim Martin 04 Nov 19 - 08:24 PM
The Sandman 05 Nov 19 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 05 Nov 19 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Starship 05 Nov 19 - 09:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Nov 19 - 09:50 AM
Howard Jones 05 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,JoeG 05 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Derrick 05 Nov 19 - 11:34 AM
Vic Smith 05 Nov 19 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Derrick 05 Nov 19 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Observer 05 Nov 19 - 01:13 PM
Brian Peters 05 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
Brian Peters 05 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,ottery 05 Nov 19 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,JoeG 05 Nov 19 - 02:20 PM
Howard Jones 05 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM
Jack Campin 05 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM
The Sandman 05 Nov 19 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 05 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Joe G 05 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM
The Sandman 06 Nov 19 - 02:48 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 19 - 06:14 AM
Vic Smith 06 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM
The Sandman 06 Nov 19 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM
Vic Smith 06 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM
r.padgett 06 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Nov 19 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,crumbly 06 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 19 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 19 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 19 - 02:47 PM
r.padgett 06 Nov 19 - 02:55 PM
r.padgett 06 Nov 19 - 03:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Nov 19 - 03:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 19 - 03:40 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 19 - 03:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 19 - 03:59 PM
Raggytash 06 Nov 19 - 04:10 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 19 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Starship 06 Nov 19 - 04:53 PM
The Sandman 06 Nov 19 - 05:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 19 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Joe G 06 Nov 19 - 07:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 19 - 07:21 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 19 - 07:41 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Nov 19 - 08:01 PM
Jack Campin 06 Nov 19 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Nov 19 - 11:16 AM
r.padgett 07 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Joe G 07 Nov 19 - 12:23 PM
Raggytash 07 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 19 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,JoeG 07 Nov 19 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,JoeG 07 Nov 19 - 01:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 19 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,JoeG 07 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM
GUEST 07 Nov 19 - 02:07 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 19 - 02:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 19 - 03:40 PM
Raggytash 07 Nov 19 - 03:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Nov 19 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Joe G 07 Nov 19 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Joe G 07 Nov 19 - 07:34 PM
r.padgett 08 Nov 19 - 02:35 AM
r.padgett 08 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM
r.padgett 08 Nov 19 - 02:42 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 19 - 02:51 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 19 - 02:53 AM
GUEST,JoeG 08 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 19 - 04:58 AM
Howard Jones 08 Nov 19 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,JoeG 08 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM
Vic Smith 08 Nov 19 - 07:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM
r.padgett 08 Nov 19 - 09:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 19 - 10:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 19 - 10:57 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 19 - 11:22 AM
r.padgett 08 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM
Raggytash 08 Nov 19 - 12:11 PM
Raggytash 08 Nov 19 - 12:12 PM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 19 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Joe G 08 Nov 19 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 08 Nov 19 - 02:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 19 - 02:11 PM
GUEST 08 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM
Raggytash 08 Nov 19 - 03:14 PM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 19 - 04:19 PM
The Sandman 08 Nov 19 - 07:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Nov 19 - 08:19 PM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 19 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Nov 19 - 12:50 AM
r.padgett 09 Nov 19 - 02:22 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 19 - 04:03 AM
peteaberdeen 09 Nov 19 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,8 Nov guest 09 Nov 19 - 06:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM
peteaberdeen 09 Nov 19 - 08:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 09 Nov 19 - 09:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Nov 19 - 09:36 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Nov 19 - 11:08 AM
Jack Campin 09 Nov 19 - 11:45 AM
GUEST 09 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM
Nick 09 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Nov 19 - 12:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Nov 19 - 01:01 PM
peteaberdeen 09 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 19 - 01:55 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM
Nick 09 Nov 19 - 02:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM
r.padgett 10 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Nov 19 - 03:38 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Nov 19 - 03:51 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 04:25 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Nov 19 - 05:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM
r.padgett 10 Nov 19 - 06:02 AM
r.padgett 10 Nov 19 - 06:42 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 06:56 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Nov 19 - 07:44 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Nov 19 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Nov 19 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 10 Nov 19 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 10 Nov 19 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,HiLo 10 Nov 19 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 10 Nov 19 - 11:48 AM
r.padgett 10 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Nov 19 - 01:20 PM
Nick 10 Nov 19 - 01:26 PM
The Sandman 10 Nov 19 - 04:52 PM
r.padgett 11 Nov 19 - 02:28 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Nov 19 - 02:40 AM
Nick 11 Nov 19 - 06:33 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 19 - 07:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 08:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 19 - 08:44 AM
r.padgett 12 Nov 19 - 09:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 19 - 09:20 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Nov 19 - 09:33 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Nov 19 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 12 Nov 19 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Nov 19 - 11:45 AM
r.padgett 12 Nov 19 - 12:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 19 - 12:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Nov 19 - 12:57 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Nov 19 - 01:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 19 - 01:55 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Nov 19 - 04:55 PM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 04:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 05:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 05:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 06:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 07:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 07:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 07:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 07:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 13 Nov 19 - 07:49 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 09:33 AM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 09:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,jag 13 Nov 19 - 12:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 12:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 01:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM
GUEST 13 Nov 19 - 01:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 01:51 PM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 02:02 PM
Raggytash 13 Nov 19 - 02:06 PM
Nick 13 Nov 19 - 02:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 19 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 02:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 03:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 03:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 03:24 PM
Raggytash 13 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Nov 19 - 04:39 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Nov 19 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 19 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 07:59 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 08:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 01:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 02:05 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 03:23 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 19 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 04:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 14 Nov 19 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Nov 19 - 06:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Nov 19 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 14 Nov 19 - 08:57 AM
Vic Smith 14 Nov 19 - 09:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 09:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 19 - 09:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM
gillymor 14 Nov 19 - 10:10 AM
GUEST 14 Nov 19 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 10:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 11:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 12:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 12:09 PM
Iains 14 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Observer 14 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 12:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 12:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 12:48 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Joe G 14 Nov 19 - 01:14 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 01:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 01:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 01:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 02:13 PM
r.padgett 14 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 02:21 PM
Raggytash 14 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 03:05 PM
Iains 14 Nov 19 - 03:10 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 03:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 03:23 PM
Raggytash 14 Nov 19 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 14 Nov 19 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 14 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 14 Nov 19 - 05:34 PM
Iains 14 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 19 - 05:58 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 08:40 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 08:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 19 - 09:34 PM
The Sandman 15 Nov 19 - 01:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 03:11 AM
The Sandman 15 Nov 19 - 03:22 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 03:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Nov 19 - 04:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 05:59 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Nov 19 - 06:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 08:43 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 19 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Nov 19 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 10:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 10:14 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 11:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 11:48 AM
Iains 15 Nov 19 - 11:49 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 12:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 12:05 PM
Jeri 15 Nov 19 - 12:18 PM
Vic Smith 15 Nov 19 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 12:27 PM
The Sandman 15 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 19 - 02:35 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM
The Sandman 15 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 04:03 PM
Jack Campin 15 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Nov 19 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM
RTim 15 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:56 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Nov 19 - 03:34 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 05:58 AM
Howard Jones 16 Nov 19 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 06:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Nov 19 - 06:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 06:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM
r.padgett 16 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 07:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 07:25 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 08:16 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 08:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 08:53 AM
r.padgett 16 Nov 19 - 10:48 AM
Raggytash 16 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 11:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 11:36 AM
Vic Smith 16 Nov 19 - 11:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 11:40 AM
Raggytash 16 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 12:04 PM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 12:29 PM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 12:45 PM
Vic Smith 16 Nov 19 - 12:56 PM
Raggytash 16 Nov 19 - 01:02 PM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 01:26 PM
Raggytash 16 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 01:42 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 01:43 PM
r.padgett 16 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM
Raggytash 16 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Roderick A Warner 16 Nov 19 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 02:16 PM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:47 PM
Vic Smith 16 Nov 19 - 02:52 PM
Vic Smith 16 Nov 19 - 03:07 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Nemisis 16 Nov 19 - 07:02 PM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 11:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 19 - 02:43 AM
r.padgett 17 Nov 19 - 03:21 AM
The Sandman 17 Nov 19 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Nov 19 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,JoeG 17 Nov 19 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 19 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,JoeG 17 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM
Iains 17 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,JoeG 17 Nov 19 - 05:30 AM
r.padgett 17 Nov 19 - 06:51 AM
r.padgett 17 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,JoeG 17 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 17 Nov 19 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 08:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM
Vic Smith 17 Nov 19 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM
Howard Jones 17 Nov 19 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Peter 17 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Nov 19 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Nov 19 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,JoeG 17 Nov 19 - 02:45 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Nov 19 - 03:02 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Nov 19 - 03:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Nov 19 - 06:41 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 19 - 02:05 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 03:16 AM
r.padgett 18 Nov 19 - 03:39 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 04:21 AM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 04:31 AM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM
GUEST 18 Nov 19 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 05:01 AM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 05:49 AM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 05:59 AM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 06:01 AM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Nov 19 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 06:48 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,HiLo 18 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
r.padgett 18 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 10:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,crumbly 18 Nov 19 - 11:13 AM
Vic Smith 18 Nov 19 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 11:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Nov 19 - 12:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 12:46 PM
Vic Smith 18 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 01:03 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Nov 19 - 02:26 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Nov 19 - 02:56 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 03:01 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 03:12 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 03:32 PM
RTim 18 Nov 19 - 03:34 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 03:41 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 03:43 PM
Raggytash 18 Nov 19 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM
Raggytash 18 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM
Raggytash 18 Nov 19 - 03:46 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 03:51 PM
Raggytash 18 Nov 19 - 03:57 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:01 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 04:19 PM
The Sandman 18 Nov 19 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 04:21 PM
Raggytash 18 Nov 19 - 04:23 PM
Vic Smith 18 Nov 19 - 04:30 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:38 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:42 PM
Raggytash 18 Nov 19 - 04:46 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 04:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Nov 19 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,JoeG 18 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 05:34 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:20 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Nov 19 - 06:36 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 06:37 PM
GUEST 18 Nov 19 - 07:20 PM
Joe G 18 Nov 19 - 07:27 PM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 01:54 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 01:56 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 02:11 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 02:16 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 03:40 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 03:59 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Nov 19 - 05:54 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 19 Nov 19 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Nov 19 - 05:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 07:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 08:41 AM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,HIlo 19 Nov 19 - 09:21 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 10:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Nov 19 - 11:38 AM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Hi 19 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM
Vic Smith 19 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,HiLo 19 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM
Jack Campin 19 Nov 19 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 01:45 PM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 02:21 PM
Raggytash 19 Nov 19 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 02:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Nov 19 - 04:25 PM
Raggytash 19 Nov 19 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,kenny 19 Nov 19 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Peter 19 Nov 19 - 06:08 PM
Jack Campin 19 Nov 19 - 06:24 PM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 06:28 PM
Raggytash 19 Nov 19 - 06:39 PM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM
GUEST 20 Nov 19 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 11:25 AM
Raggytash 20 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM
Joe G 20 Nov 19 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:24 PM
Raggytash 20 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM
r.padgett 20 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
r.padgett 20 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM
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Subject: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM

I think the discussion under the closed thread 'Folk Revival 2019' is worth continuing. Most people contributing to that thread were respectful of each others' opinions (even if we didn't all agree) so let's start a new discussion and keep it that way. Please refrain from any personal attacks on this thread and keep it friendly if occasionally challenging :-)

I won't post an opening statement as I had almost the last word on the closed thread and said what I wanted to say - I know Jim (and others) disagree with my broad definition of folk but I respect that view even though I totally disagree with it. Let's continue in that vein.

(My broad definition of folk for the sake of clarity is 'Songs which have a narrative thread, are rooted in place and are generally but not exclusively about the employment, politics and occasionally love lives of working people - I'm sure this won't stand up to analysis but that is my definition of folk - what instruments it is played by or the volume of its delivery are irrelevant. The Whisky Priests, Jim Moray, Jon Boden or Sail Pattern to name but a few are as much folk to me as the Copper Family - they are keeping the tradition alive and vibrant and they are building upon it to keep it relevant to people in the 21st c. Without their contribution many songs will die out with those of us who have been around for a bit longer. What is folk instrumental music is possibly harder to define - I just know it when I hear it :-) )


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:52 PM

Having said I won't post an opening statement I just did :-)

Remember to keep it friendly!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 09:32 PM

I think the topic of discussion was more-or-less exhausted, and the Usual Suspects got bored and got into infighting. I don't think this thread will go anywhere, but I will allow it. And if it goes bad, I'll close it and put a hold on the subject for several months.
And that being said, let it also be known that I will not tolerate any attempt by moderators or others to suppress any point of view in this thread, as long as it sticks to the stated topic of discussion. I undeleted a number of posts in the previous thread because I could see no logic behind their deletion. I don't know if they were deleted because the posts were political, or because they were right-wing or left-wing. Whatever the case, it's clear to me that folk music has a political aspect, and that aspect must be included in this discussion without interference - as long as it relates to music. Any discussion about which posters are "banned" or not banned has no place here - NOBODY is banned from the music forum, unless they're not talking about music. I closed the previous thread because it got into petty personal squabbles, and I will quickly close this thread if it goes in the same direction. As always, I will state my reason for closing threads, but I will not allow public discussion of moderator actions. Feel free to contact me by email or personal message if you wish to discuss moderator actions. If you don't like what I have to say, you can contact Max or another moderator.
Joe Offer, Music Editor
The Mudcat Cafe
joe@mudcat.org

And if you wish to complain about this statement, contact Mudcat owner Max Spiegel by personal message or email max@mudcat.org

OK, now let's talk about "The current state of folk music in UK" - and nothing else.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:58 PM

I vote it's exhausted as a topic. No one is changing anyone else's minds and the opinions they express are their own. Same ol' same ol'.

Citations would be nice. Has anyone any scholarly contributions to offer to expand the topic? Those I might sit up and listen to.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 11:10 PM

”I vote it's exhausted as a topic. No one is changing anyone else's minds and the opinions they express are their own. Same ol' same ol'.”

Me too.. I have opinions on this topic, but I seldom post because it’s a complete waste of effort - entrenched positions ensure that’s the case. People who never set foot in a folk club telling those of us who do that ‘clubs are failing’ and blaming we who keep them going for that supposed ‘failure’. Utter horse-puckey.

Might as well close it now, we all know where it’s going.

Just my 2p’s-worth.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 12:09 AM

But we'll wait and see where the thread goes. I wanted to join in the discussion last week but couldn't, because our power was out and it's hard to post thoughtful messages on a cell phone. It would be interesting to compare the folk revival in the UK, with that in the United States. Those with political interests, might say that the U.S. folk revival began with the People's Songs movement that started with Seeger, Lampell, Silber, and others just after World War II. But I think that research into more traditional folk music went back to the government-supported folklorists of the Depression years. The Library of Congress supported Lomax and other collectors in the 1930s.

American folk music went through a period of commercial success in the 1960s and into the 1970s, and then it mostly disappeared. But some of us "boomers" who came of age in that time continued to support it, mostly as volunteers, and it's still quite lively for us. Still, there are very few U.S. folk enthusiasts with anything but white hair - most of us are well past the grey-haired stage.

How did UK folk music develop in the 20th century, and where is it now? I think many of the best-known UK collectors were earlier than the US collectors(albeit with some overlap). Greig and Vaughan Williams and Sharp and Baring-Gould and others gave the movement a good start in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and others like Burns and Sir Walter Scott and Percy were even earlier. Ewan MacColl added a political aspect to the folk music community, and many others joined him.

Both in the UK and in the US, the folk music community has been two-sided: political and traditional. Neither should be neglected. We cannot deny one or the other and claim we are talking realistically about "folk." As for the singer-songwriter stuff, I'm not sure where to place it or how to deal with it. I like some of it, but mostly I prefer "folk-processed" songs that have stood the test of time.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 02:48 AM

Is live and well and performing many functions ~ improving musicianship, social gatherings, pub entertainment in uk, education in social history and helping the economy!

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 02:52 AM

If this subject is exhausted, then I am afraid any future discussion of folk music (as I have come to know if over the last fifty fifty-odd years of my involvement) has no place on this forum and the heading 'Traditional' should be removed from the heading.
That is the music I and my generation knew as folk and that is the music that has been documented and archived and left for posterity.
I have been told in no uncertain terms that if I wish to find that folk music in the UK, I must go elsewhere as it is no longer available on the folk scene I helped set up and was part of for so long
It's with a great deal of sadness I watch a wonderful movement crumble and disappear because it no longer has an identity - because nobody in the UK can agree what folk song is any more.

The folk music I know to have lived up to the description still exists in the UK - it can be found in The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library and a few similar establishments
On line, it can be accessed on The National Sound Archive at the British Library site, or the magnificent Scottish 'Kist O' Riches' site
Elsewhere, it can be listened to as part of The Alan Lomax Collection on line.
The Helen Hartness Flanders site is full of songs that were taken from Britain and Ireland in past centuries and survived long enough to be recorded by that dedicated lady - a wonderful resource for anybody wishing to enjoy some of our best songs
I understand that there are plans to make Ken Goldstein's Scots and Australian recordings available in the not-too-distant future - great news
I find it ironic and sad that that some of the finest examples of British folk music resides because there is no longer a place for them back home

Last week I was delighted to be told that our collection was now being put on line by the British Library - at last people can listen to what singers like Walter Pardon had to say about their folk music as well as enjoying their songs
Now I am not sure it's worth the effort and our remaining time wouldn't be better spent ascertaining that is established where it will be more appreciated and cherished - Limerick University seems the most promising
I was hoping at one time Mudcat would be able to make use of it - that didn't work out, probably just as well given what is happening

I am appalled that the last thread ended as it did
I put my case as clearly and rationally as I could, I insulted no-one and I offered evidence to what I had to say
I resent deeply that it was put down to "the usual suspects" when it crashed in flames as it did, when it in fact, the fault lay with an input of abusive and extremely personal postings aimed at my arguments and eventually at the "censorial" moderators
It has concerned me for some time now that there are a number of subjects on this forum that we are able to discuss because of this behaviour - I am saddened that traditional song has now been added to that growing list

On the bright side, I think I came out of that last thread with a clearer picture of 'The State of Folk Music in the UK' than I went into is
Useful to know, in somewhat depressing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM

One current effect on the 'folk' music scene is the disappearance of suitable venues. I know of at least two previously folk friendly pubs that are changing their layout (and/or theme) that will deem them unsuitable for sessions. This has an obvious direct on the clubs that use them. The situation is also compounded by the sad demise of local pubs in general which reduces the options for alternative venues. Alas, these days folkies are fairly or unfairly labelled as soda water and lime drinkers and not the beer swillers of yesteryear. From a profit perspective, this makes landlords less keen to allocate rooms for sessions as it's probably more bother than it's worth.
I should point out that folk music will survive and always have waves of popularity however, the disappearance of suitable venues is worrying.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:28 AM

I think the problem with your proposition is Jim that it leaves folk music in the archives and the libraries. Or the the province of a few sages.

The majority of the songs you approve of were written by young vigorous people living and participating in society. And of necessity they were on the edge of society - detached enough to comment on their lives. Did Sam Larner strike you as the guy who would spent his time rooting through libraries.

if we follow your predilection for the Irish model - people who would sit in classes being given a set of rules to express themselves - they have no appeal for me, nor I believe the English character.

The people's need to express themselves in song is folk music in our country. No one gets it together in five minutes, and stumbling across a roomful of people struggling with the chords of a beatles tune is not an inspiring sight or sound, but it deserves more respect than a sneer.   Everyone starts somewhere.

We are doing our best. We all choose our own starting point. for you it was the Spinners - for kids today it seems to be a Chinese guitar and Oasis. Its their first step towards creativity, and as such worthy of respect.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:33 AM

Actually, if we focus purely on the 'music' side, it seems fairly healthy to me.

If I wanted to, I could go out to a folk club or session every night of the week. (I live in London) The majority of the material at said events would be traditional.

Yes, the audiences tend to be quite old. But there are enough people involved in their 20s, 30s and 40s to suggest that traditional folk singarounds, gigs and sessions will continue to exist in London for several generations to come.

In terms of recorded music, I'm encouraged by musicians such as Stick in the Wheel, Lankum, Cath & Phil Tyler, Alasdair Roberts and Nick Hart, who are making music that's a lot less sugar-coated than the folk mainstream.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:54 AM

Thanks Joe

I did wonder about the wisdom of attempting to continue the discussion but it seemed to me that amongst the chaff of some unhelpful contributions there was some wheat to be harvested. If we can ensure this discussion remains focussed and free of personal antagonism then I think it might be worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:22 AM

"Jim that it leaves folk music in the archives and the libraries."
My point exactly Al
Those libraries were't set up to preserve the songs in aspic - they were there to allow them to be accesses and learned from
The archives had a double purpose as far as I was concerned - to preserve the songs fist certainly, but where possible, to make them accessible to be learned from
Books and Archives are tools, not an end in themselves
Your Chinese guitars and also tools - it's what you make with those tools that's important
It is ironic that now it is possible to make them available world-wide via the Net there is no longer sufficient interest to make use of them widely

The clubs were set up in the first place from the songs released from the BBC collecting project and later from a small handful of books
We took them snad learned the songs
The folk boom drew in more people, yet later became a diversion and, like the similar jazz boom, crashed when the industry decided there was not enough money to be made from it, leaving behind the die-hards

The best of the clubs came later - many survived and prospered
The Singers Club died shortly after MaccColl died because Peggy moved back to America (for a time) - so the club MacColl started in the sixties carried on to the end of his life - not a bad thing to take to your grave, I think

My start wan't really The Spinners - they were the first live music I heard, but it was the songs themselves that kept me here and still keep me active

Groups like Oasis have been around forever - they have nothing to do with folk music - or this discussion
When we first started coming to Ireland the kids were listening to Boomtown Rats, Thin Lizzie, Gilbert O'Sullivan and the like and it was widely believed that the rich traditional stuff had seen its last generation
Dedication and buckets of blood, sweat and tears shed by a few people have introduced Irish kids to their traditional inheritance and they've taken to it big-time

One of the strange contradictions I've seen is the changing roles of the generations
When I was an avid pop listener my father would deride my music and say I should "listen to something decent instead of that rubbish"
He and my mother bought me my first MacColl album for my 21st, which started the rot
Both were somewhat sceptical when I started to sing (my mother once said "If you were singing for shit you wouldn't get the smell of it" - I cherish that as a classic piece of Liverpool humour)
Both came around to it and began to like the songs, my dad even started to sing his father's sea shanties and some Dominic Behan songs.
Unfortunately, neither lived long enough to see my interest develop from a pastime to an obsession - they died within 18 months of one another when I was in my mid twenties) but I think that would have been happy to see how things turned out.

What seems to be happening today is, while The Irish youngsters have leapt the wall and joined tha band of traddies, back in the UK, the oldies still left in the revival have turned to the pop music my dad despised and aredoing their best to ascertain the the British kids won't follow their Irish counterparts and take an interest in their traditions
Strange or what !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:50 AM

GUEST,Sol wrote -
Alas, these days folkies are fairly or unfairly labelled as soda water and lime drinkers and not the beer swillers of yesteryear.

Recently, I received my regular circular email from South London's premier folk club. It has been having its problems with venues over the last decade. Once they were in a pub that was prepared to let them have the room but there were no chairs in the room so they had to ask their regulars to bring camping chairs with them. They found a more suitable venue a few stops down the Northern Line and found a suitable room in Tooting where they have thrived for the last three years. Then a new management came in and stated that unless the folk club could guarantee £500 sales of beer each week, they could not have the clubroom under any circumstances. They could not give this guarantee so the club is currently homeless. This is the reality facing current and potential folk club organisers in England, particularly in the capital. My interest (rather than my regular attendance) means that I am on the mailing list of two north London folk clubs, both of whom have suffered repeated venue problems in recent years.
One cannot blame the landlords; the old-fashioned drinks-only pub with an upstairs or back room available for hire seems to be no longer a sustainable business model. Publicans have to be inventive in the use of their premises to make ends meet and they seem to be fighting a losing battle with the price differential between supermarket and pub prices of drinks.
The nature programmes on television are always telling us that it is the loss of habitat that leads to species extinction. Well, the natural habitat of the folk club was the pub clubroom So it is adapt or die - and as has been pointed out on a number of threads of this nature, there is a lot of adaptation going on.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:07 AM

My penchant is for traditional Irish music, mainly not song, but for a number of years I hardly missed a single Friday night at our folk club until, sadly, it closed in 1996. So I enjoyed many of the great and the good (and a few of the bad) of the folk music of these islands and my harmonica playing had to be endured by attendees almost every time. We kept the fire aflame in the form of weekly pub sessions for twenty years after that. I had to stop several years ago as my hearing declined. Anyway, I think I'm qualified to read these threads and occasionally stick my oar in. Joe Offer, it's fine to try to firmly set the parameters for discussion but you should be doing that in a positive and constructive - and friendly - manner. I for one would applaud that. But, as I've said several times before, it's not fine to do it whilst failing (again) to resist the urge to eyeball those who you pejoratively call "usual suspects." I could name at least three "usual suspects" of the very worst kind from down the years who didn't even think they were (or, in one case is) "usual suspects." As they say, it's about outcomes, dear boy, outcomes...

As for the topic, as long as folk show up to sing songs without crib sheets, some old, some new, get us to join in the choruses now and then, and do it without plugging into complex sound systems and who don't put themselves on pedestals, or who try to "see a career in it," and who are respectful of the long tradition of folk song without necessarily shackling themselves to it a hundred percent of the time, let's enjoy it and see where it goes. And anyone can sing...

(Back to the cave, then, Stevieboy...)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:29 AM

Depending where I go I can see either Jim's scenario "the oldies still left in the revival have turned to the pop music my dad despised" or Mat's "The majority of the material at said events would be traditional. ". The folk music scene in south east England at least is by no means homogeneous. The split is in proportions similar to Brexit.

One thing that older people working in fairly young teams have commented to me is that younger people are less likely to go to "the club" every week be it any sport or genre of music or just a regular venue for a drink than our generaton were. If you can get somebody over 50 into your club and they like it they will probably come back of their own accord, with a younger audience you have to sell each night to them.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Trad music long predates its migration into pubs, and the pub session or club phase is nearing its end. I'm playing much more in people's houses now than ever before. And situating the music in private houses makes for much better intergenerational communication than even the most child-friendly pub.

The only people who lose out by this move are the obnoxious pillocks nobody would want to be host to unless they were buying enough drink to be worth the aggravation.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM

The ' pub seesion ' is hardly coming to an end, I play in 2 sessions every week, both very well attended and playing 90% traditional songs and tunes.

I know other sessions that are equally thriving.

Or is this happening in West Yorkshire only ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM

My previous post was explicitly responding to comments about "clubs". Certainly there are plenty of sessions around where I am but these are increasingly having to fit in around the meal trade. One regular session that I go to was bounced from its last venue earlier this year and could only find a new pub by switching from the Sunday lunch timings it had used for the previous 20 years to mid afternoon.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM

It would appear from what some are saying here that in various places in the UK what they see as "The Folk Scene" is thriving and to varying but constantly high percentages the material is "Traditional".

My guess with regard to those writing such statements and referring to "sessions" they play in, that these are predominantly "tune sessions" in which case I am not at all surprised that there is a high percentage of traditional material played.

Like others, if I wanted to, I could, with a low to moderate degree of travel within the area I live in, enjoy live music almost every night of any given week. Many of these venues describe themselves as "Folk Clubs", or "Folk Sessions" and they do so rather dishonestly as if truth be told very little if anything when it comes to songs are either "folk songs" or traditional songs. So what sessions and what venues do I go to? That is decided by word of mouth, which tells me who will be there and from that I know whether or not I will enjoy the evening. That being my personal experience I can appreciate what Jim Carroll and Akenaton complain of I do not want to drive 40 miles to what I think is a "Folk Club" to hear poor and mediocre acoustic versions of "Dire Straits" numbers, Beatles Songs and 50s rock 'n roll (Which oddly enough, we are told are so popular and such crowd pleasers that, those singing them and joining in only know the first verse and the chorus, then it just dries up).

Venues are getting fewer and fewer because the traditional venue, local pubs are closing right left and centre. "House Concerts" are becoming more common I have been to quite a few but there you tend to meet the same people time and time again and all seem to be very much of an age, I've certainly seen no evidence of "intergenerational communication".

When I was very much younger, you had to go to folk clubs to hear folk music, it wasn't played all that much on television or on radio. Today the big change is that if youngsters want to listen to whatever music they like they just use their mobile phones and listen to the actual artists performance, not some bumbling amateur making a hash of it.

Crib sheets, i-pads and tablets do not help anyone "learn" a song they become an indespensable crutch and the song is never learned. As to the contention that "Anyone can sing"? That perhaps is true but they should not inflict it on others until they have actually sat down and listened to themselves to hear what they sound like. I dare say anyone could be a brain surgeon but that does not mean they should actually attempt it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM

". . . with a younger audience you have to sell each night to them."

PeterC has voiced a common difficulty with clubs everywhere--meaning not just the UK and Ireland. Teenagers and young adults have authority figures talking at but not necessarily with them in schools, at work, at home. They won't go to a club, pub session or anywhere else if they think the same thing will be happening there. Unless people are made to feel welcome they just won't be back to places they aren't required to be.

Folk/music (whatever one thinks that means) becomes a commodity the moment it's promoted for sale, and like any other commodity it will be sought after by some and disregarded by others.

When I go to listen to a singer/vocal performer I go to listen. I don't want to socialize or otherwise interact with anyone else while the person I came to hear is 'in the spotlight'. But over the years I've noticed an increasing number of audience members who just have to talk while the performer performs, and frankly it's a real turn-off.

If older-in-age members would think back to the moment they had that 'Wow, this is for me' feeling about a club or music venue, what exactly was it that piqued your interest and kept it going, and took you with it? There are many good performers, musicians, singers, instrumentalists on this site who should be able to pinpoint why audiences are static or diminishing in numbers.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM

Peter C -
Depending where I go I can see either Jim's scenario "the oldies still left in the revival have turned to the pop music my dad despised" or Mat's "The majority of the material at said events would be traditional. ".

In Sussex, the majority of folk clubs would certainly fall into Matt's category but I have just received a circular email of an account of an evening from a place that used to be a folk club and still calls itself a folk club:-
2nd October 2019

Thanks to all for a great evening.

Yvette started the evening with Love Potion Number Nine by The Searchers, Ticket To Ride and Karma Chameleon by Culture Club

Laurie was next playing his accordion, You're My World, Windmill In Old Amsterdam, and Streets Of London

Tony Cox then played the harmonica, Yellow Rose Of Texas, Paper Roses originally by Anita Bryant in 1960 and later by Marie Osmond, and The Wayward Wind. A classic set of Country and Western songs.

Ted then ventured into traditional folk with High Germany, The White Cockade, and The Jolly Ploughboy

Audrey Lee was next up playing the autoharp, her own song Brittle Miss Harper, and Nick Cave's Ship Song

Lorna then played the recorder, Sunset Over Aire & Still Rushing Around.

Ged treated us to a section of old and new rock and roll with Picture Of You, Rosie, and Viva La Vida by Coldplay

The INTERVAL was an opportunity to buy tickets for the famous [*** NAME OF CLUB HERE***] raffle and catch up with friends old and new. Thanks to the Rafflers.

Ken opened the second half with If I Were A Carpenter by The Four Tops, Cats In The Cradle by Harry Chapin, and John Denver's Leaving On A Jet Plane.

Chris Leaney continued in the folky style with Vincent Black Lightning 1952, Old Goldmine, and Her Lost Youth.

Kim and Rob then entertained us with the 1951 Merle Travis song Nine Pound Hammer, Diamonds And Rust by Joan Baez, and the old Robert Johnson song The Last Fair Deal Gone Down. Such a sweet sound.

After the RAFFLE
Tony Simpson began the last 'spasm' with Teach Your Children, Blowing In The Wind, and Carolina Star

Bamboozle (Liz and Derek) closed the evening with Wading Through The Waters, Only You, and How Long

Hmm! Under a previous regime we used to be booked at this club. Well, each to his own, I suppose, but somehow, I get the impression that this would not be Jim's sort of club.
I must admit that it made me smile to read that - in a folk club - someone had "ventured into traditional folk" - very brave of them, I would say. It reminded me of those very old maps where the uncharted areas were marked "Here be Dragons!"
The circular was accompanied by some photos of performers. It was difficult to see some of the their faces because every head was bent over a music stand.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:30 AM

The decline of the clubs echoes the decline of the pub itself. Once pub landlords considered themselves a community service - many would still like to, but the harsh economics of the pub trade mean that they increasingly rely on selling food and many no longer have a spare room they can make available for free or a modest amount.

It also has to be said that we don't help ourselves. Folkies seem to be a remarkably stingy lot, unwilling to spend much at the bar (although drink-driving laws don't help) and unwilling even to pay a realistic sum to pay to hear the music they claim to love. Yes I know some genuinely can't afford much, but many more can.

Where the clubs can't carry on, folk events are either becoming larger by moving into concert-style halls and theatres or else they are small-scale house concerts. However there are still a lot of less formal sessions and singarounds.

Folk music is a broad term and for most people includes more than its more technical sense of traditional music. People tend to incline towards events where they will hear the music they most enjoy, so some prefer traditional while others prefer contemporary folk. There's room for both, but with fewer venues it may be more difficult to find one which suits you, and you may have to travel further.

No one would pretend that the folk scene is as strong as it once once, but it is still possible to hear a very wide range of excellent music superbly performed, and there are still opportunities for people to sing and play themselves.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:35 AM

"My previous post was explicitly responding to comments about "clubs"."
For me, if the clubs go, then so does the song - the music has found a comfortable niche in the sessions, though, as Jack said, its origins were in homes rather than pubs
Song is presented with a massive problem in the sense that it is not at home in pub sessions - nobody wants to stop drinking to listen to a song - let alone a ten verse ballad
Sam Larner once made the point perfectly when he said, "Yes, we sang at 'The Fisherman's Return' every week, but the serious singing was always done at home or at sea"
If festivals and concerts are the future, then we return to pre-revival days of being passive observers of performances - which is what we tried to move away from

That youngsters are capable of making and sharing music in a social environment is beyond doubt
When I started visiting this West of Ireland Town I saw youngsters learning to play from scratch   
Two of our leading local musicians were teenagers learning their craft
Bríd O'Donoghue is still playing superbly, but her greatest contribution to Irish music is the hundreds of youngsters she has encouraged and taught
BRÍD'S FAMILY are all fine musicians in their own right

EDEL FOX has become one of Ireland's leading concertina players, but she also has a track record of teaching young people to play   
As I say, singing has some way to go but IT'S BEGINNING TO HAPPEN
Jim Carroll

None of this would have happened if we'd settled for being passive audiences


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:39 AM

Well if i didn't mind playing rhythm guitar all week, i could attend trad sessions in Weymouth, 2 nights in Dorchester, 1 in Bridport.
That's without going too far down the shit Dorset roads. That's four a week - if i wanted. But as you know - I'm more at home with the people struggling to get started like i did. Plenty of those song sessions and open mics.

The thing -even if i play traditional material. People know that I do other stuff.

Your description of your parents' initial reaction to you becoming a singer - very much reminds me of my own, Jim. I'm really jealous of the supportive parents and the ease of access to music and instruments that kids have nowadays.

Still - they wouldn't have been your parents, would they?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM

My guess with regard to those writing such statements and referring to "sessions" they play in, that these are predominantly "tune sessions" in which case I am not at all surprised that there is a high percentage of traditional material played.

Your guess would be wrong. Most sessions are predominantly about recently composed tunes in the traditional idiom (or an idiom recognizably derived from it).


"House Concerts" are becoming more common I have been to quite a few but there you tend to meet the same people time and time again and all seem to be very much of an age, I've certainly seen no evidence of "intergenerational communication".

I was talking about participatory events, not concerts. (I've been to three house concerts in my life and I was playing at two of them).


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM

In Ireland the number of pubs has dropped 20% since 2005. In the UK 25% since 2000. Loss of venue is common in both countries. An additional problem in Ireland is much lower breathalyser limits.(50mg for all drivers, 20mg for specified drivers. In the UK it is 80mg) In rural areas this hits particularly hard. This all conspires to diminish the number of people out and about that would have had a casual exposure to folk. It is a dedicated diehard sups on orange juice all evening.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:52 AM

"younger people are less likely to go to "the club" every week be it any sport or genre of music or just a regular venue for a drink than our generaton were."

Some of the monthly folk clubs I go to seem to have regular attendees who are in their 20s. I make every effort to go to two particular ones (Tooting Folk Club and Bermondsey Folk Club if you're interested). I don't know if they'd go every week if the clubs were weekly, however. I would have felt the same: you're more sociable in your 20s and committing to a music night every week just seems too formal.

By the way, Vic: I know the club of which you speak. I often wonder if the Court Sessions attendees are aware of their near neighbours, Tooting Folk Club? www.tootingfolk.com
They would all be more than welcome to attend. It currently meets monthly at the Gorringe Park.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 09:07 AM

Bermondsey? Have they found a new venue? Last thing I heard was that they were temporarily homeless.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 09:33 AM

Could I politely point out to Jim that two of his three posts in this thread - though interesting - deal with historic matters? We have been asked specifically to stick to "The current state of folk music in UK" - and nothing else.
So far the thread has been interesting and informative with experiences in different parts of the country being shared. Let's keep it that way.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 09:49 AM

I agree with Al's point about respect.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 09:55 AM

Festivals and concerts are part of the future, but not the only part. There are still other opportunities to perform.

House concerts are usually by invitation (no one wants random strangers in their house) so the audiences do tend to come from a fairly small group, but no smaller in my experience than the group of regulars at a folk club. They include a range of ages. Whilst the performance itself is in the form of a concert, at the ones I go to there is usually an informal session as well, and sometimes a workshop.

The tune sessions I attend are usually mostly traditional English tunes, and usually a few songs.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM

Despite the drop in the number of Irish Pubs, finding a venue in rural ares isn't a problem to my knowledge
Landlords seem willing to accept anything that will fill empty pubs during the week
We're lucky here - there are still two bars which have historically hosted traditional music and they have been added to as this town has gained the reputation of being 'the home of Irish Traditional Music
There are sessions six nights out of seven, several on some nights
This used to drop when the visitors stopped coming, but there's little sign of that so far
The standard varies from reasonable to extremely high, one of our locals, Jackie Daly, has just won an award for his services to Irish music and at least three more have a national/international reputation
Certainly not the case all over Ireland, but the foundations have now been laid for that to change
One of the stars in our crown is Oidhreacht an Chláir a local heritage group with a strong emhasis on the traditional arts
Some problems, but getting there, thanks to a growing interest in the Tradition
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM

It has been a few years since I was in the Lincolnshire area, but it all seems very healthy to me.

http://www.folk-now.co.uk/folktalk/talk2.htm#Session
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-clubs/lincolnshire.htm
Some venues close, some even demolished but the scene continues.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:23 AM

Festivals and concerts are part of the future, but not the only part. There are still other opportunities to perform.

Festivals and concerts are where people are paying good money to place their bums on the seats and they are, or should be a "listening" and attentive audience (Agree wholeheartedly about people who feel that they have a right to chatter away during concerts). These venues also require a high standard of performance and that is where the University students and graduates from the previous thread come into the picture. So far this has all been non-participation so it is the "other opportunities to perform that allows participation of those attending and that if I am understanding Jim correctly is this sort of environment where "folk music" and trad originally in days long gone came from and is now nurtured. A place where old songs are sung and new ones fitting in style and content can be absorbed to be passed on and submit to the "folk process".


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:23 AM

"The current state of folk music in UK"
Sorry Vic - there seems little point in confining ones comments to what is happening, especially if you are not happy if you believe it needs improving (as it must be obvious I do)
I would much rather make helpful suggestions (with examples) of how things might be improved - no compulsion of course
If that's not allowed I'll just go and finish my Codeword, but I'd hate to think that anybody would restrict any discussions to just self-congratulatory back-slapping or griping and carping
That's not the way I have ever viewed this forum
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM

Having returned from an internet free couple of days away I am glad to see the discussion continues on this thread.

As far as I am concerned, the current state of folk music in the UK is pretty good for both listening and participating. Others will disagree of course but it does look like most posters on here concur with that analysis.

What do you want to get out of the discussion, JoeG? Is it a type of survey of views or do you want to get involved in talks about a definition of folk song? Or something entirely different!?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM

The ‘Folk-Scene’ in Lincolnshire is indeed very healthy - I will be going to Epworth Folk and Acoustic club tonight to do three or four songs myself, listen to seven or eight other performers (of varying levels of competence, but we all had to start somewhere didn’t we), and have a drink and a chuckle with Musket about the latest closed ‘WTF is Folk’ thread. Not all Trad - mostly the aforementioned Musket doing the Trad stuff - maybe a couple of ‘pop’ songs thinly disguised as ‘nearly-folk’, and plenty of ‘singer-songwriter’ stuff. And a grand time will be had by all.

There will be performers’ clubs and sessions operating during the rest of the week and at the weekend, I may go to one or two, or I may rest in the bosom of my family depending on how I feel.

But, in my part of the Backwoods at least, it’s out there and flourishing and, should I decide to take my passport and cross the border into South Yorkshire or Notts, it’s flourishing even more. Some of the stuff I, and others, are doing would probably not pass Jim’s Litmus-Test, but he won’t be there! ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM

Festivals and concerts are where people are paying good money to place their bums on the seats

Festivals vary as much as folk clubs. At one extreme you have events like Sidmouth and Whitby with a mix of formats where you participate or sit back and be entertained in whatever combination suits you and at the other what is no more than a longer than usual concert.

Looking around the demographics of various events I suspect that the next couple of decades will see a contraction in song based events as the dominant generation dies out and an expansion in dance which is where I see more youngsters.

Once we have all gone there will, no doubt, be another generation of "young radicals" who will rebel against the heavily arranged performances of the current crop of graduates and look back to the sources.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM

Is maybe a whole lot of generlisation going on here? Even to the likes of drink driving limit differences between the UK and Ireland. The limit for normal drinkers is the same in Scotland as it is in the Republic and much lower than it is in Northern Ireland. I live smack in the middle of the rural Scottish Borders and there are sessions on through the region on virtually every night plus the weekends. Some trad and some not right enough but folks are travelling and attending regularly despite the lower 50mg limit.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM

" Jim’s Litmus-Test, but he won’t be there!"
My 'litmus test' is based on what is sung - not how many bums are on seats Baccy
I've been told that I have to go else where if I want folk music so I'm happy to accept that's how it is
Not much of this means too much to me
If I just wanted a successful evening I'd probably be as weel looking up a good disco - at least they could probably explain what they are doing
Not what I signed up for
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:04 PM

I find all the folk music I like on the internet and CDs..
I represent the kind of folkie who enjoys listening on my own to high quality performers and recordings
through good Hi Fi headphones;
and who aint that interested in socialiing in communal sings songs...

I'd hazard to guess there are far more like me than folk club oriented folkies would prefer...???

If I ever do want to perform my take on folk music, It'll be recorded and uploaded,
just like all the many thousands of other world wide 21st century internet focused folkies...

'Pro' quality hobbyist recordings that if any good and lucky,
might be discovered by a few like minded musicians and fans
from all around the planet...

My aspiration would be enough 'fans' to merit me posting an Amazon wish list...

btw.. nearly all the 'new' folk I've found and enjoyed listening to
is East European and Indian/Turkish/Middle Eastern/etc..

Not the kind of live music I'd easily find in a culturally isolated provincial west country pub acoustic evening...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:49 PM

Despite reports to the contrary folk music, as I understand it, is alive and well and flourishing wherever I go in England or Ireland.

It is vibrant, dynamic and spirited all over these lands.

There are some superb performers, as well as others (to be kind) who are perhaps not quite so "accomplished"

However I doubt whether the vast majority would pass "the litmus test"

I really don't care for categorising what is and what isn't folk music. My criteria is that if it sounds like folk music, it moves me like folk music, it is folk music.

As I have said before the 1954 "definition" has done much to damage fok music.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM

Folk music and singing in our United Nations varies a lot, thank God - as mentioned on the other Folk Revival thread, e.g., Mongolians have their throat singing, whereas Chinese use a shrill voice and, in my opinion, our best folkies have an earthy sound.

And these traditions have survived due to folks being impressed by how THEIR OWN forebears did things - hence, as I also said, many classical musicians wishing to give a nod to nationalism have turned to folk music.

Accordingly and sadly, globalisation/Americanisation, economic/CAPITALIST immigration, and, in England, e.g., the relentless promotion of internal ethnic diversity (whereas, a few decades ago "assimilation" was promoted) are largely responsible for the decline of these traditions/the current state of folk music in the UK being much less popular than American (c)rap, pop, rock, country, etc.

And, accordingly, positive nationalism/ "Nationalism without Conquest" is a key solution.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM

"Despite reports to the contrary folk music, as I understand it, is alive and well and flourishing wherever I go in England or Ireland.
"
Sorry Rag - still meaningless unless you define your folk music
You mau as well take someone to a crammed ROH and say - "Look - who said the folk scene wa in trouble"
Why not ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:45 PM

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 08:52 AM

...
As a singer, I have a loose definition that makes sure that people who turn up to hear folk songs will hear them or songs based on folk syles


Remember tbat, Jim?

We all have our own "loose definition". Who judges which one is right?

You are right of course. We cannot judge what the current state of folk music in the UK is unless we know what we mean by folk music. You say yourself that the 1954 definition is not fit for purpose and you just have a "loose definition". I have a loose definition. Raggy has a loose defintion. We all know what is meant by folk music and I strongly suspect we are in agreement on 80% of the songs we chose. Can you not just accept that?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:47 PM

That's the problem Jim, you and your ilk have to "define" folk music. The majority of us understand folk music when we hear it. My interpretation of folk music will differ from the next man, woman or child, that does not make their interpretation any less valid than mine.

I suspect that most of the singer/songwriters who I consider to be brilliant exponents of the art won't past muster with you.

I seem to inhabit a world that frankly perished in the middle of the last century and have not be able to accept that folk music like all forms of art changes through time.

Your loss not mine.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:54 PM

Sorry that should have read "You seem to inhabit a world..." not "I inhabit a world ...."

Just one more thing Jim, I have been involved in my version of folk music for over 60 years, during that time I have seen dozens, scores, if not hundreds of people put of folk music because of the views expressed by people like yourself.

Reading the posts on this forum would lead to believe I am not alone in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:54 PM

Sorry that should have read "You seem to inhabit a world..." not "I inhabit a world ...."

Just one more thing Jim, I have been involved in my version of folk music for over 60 years, during that time I have seen dozens, scores, if not hundreds of people put of folk music because of the views expressed by people like yourself.

Reading the posts on this forum would lead to believe I am not alone in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:55 PM

Do a survey at a shopping centre in England asking have they heard of American Emmylou Harris, then try say Fay Hield or Bella Hardy of England - the gap would NOT be due to quality but hype.

If someone said to Paul McCartney that the Beatles were very good at an aspect of American, rather than their own, culture he would not deny it but probably say something like - it's a cool thing to do, man.

We need to convince English that appreciating, practising and performing their own good culture is a right and proper thing to do, lads and lasses.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM

Has anybody ever been to a gig on Jim's recommendation?

Didn't think so.

So why should "this act is folk according to Jim's definition" make it a box office draw?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:04 PM

Thanks everyone for contributing to this new thread I have found the discussion very interesting. In response to Dave's question about what I want to get out of this thread I'd say that I merely found it interesting to continue get a feel for the vitality of the 'folk' scene (in my broad definition of folk as outlined in my opening comment) across the UK (and Ireland as the scene there has been referred to). I'm based in Yorkshire so it is interesting to hear how things are going elsewhere. I only occasionally attend folk clubs as I cannot drive in the dark so my main club now is Black Swan in York since we moved here three years ago but as I love many genres of music and York has a vibrant music scene I am only an occasional attendee - probably about once a month on average.

I also wanted this to be a thread where we could discuss amicably even if we have different, and often strongly held opinions. I think so far that that objective has been achieved and would hope it remains so. For the record I find much to agree with in Raggytash's comments.

I will comment more on my impressions of the folk scene later from what I have gathered as a club, venue and festival attendee, a former folk club booking sec and a constant seeker of great music wherever I can find it - often as not on Radio 3!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:29 PM

"And these traditions have survived due to folks being impressed by how THEIR OWN forebears did things
- hence, as I also said, many classical musicians wishing to give a nod to nationalism have turned to folk music.
"

errrmm.. many classical musicians aint exactly a huge number of people really, is it..
not compared to an entire mass poplation that they are only a tiny minority of...???
So that's a very over optimistic spin on statistics to support your enthusiasm for nationalism...

Don't be too surprised if you get a gurt big "so what...!!!"
from most of the population who couldn't give a monkey's about folk, or classical, music;
and similar response from a fair few obsessive folkies
who aren't too impressed by elitist classical composers pilfering our old tunes...

So let's run your theory/opinion to hear what it sounds like...

"Trad Folk music inspires nationalist pride because a handful of classical musicians occasionaly dip into it..." wow...!!!!!!

Hang on, is that right..?? or maybe it's...

"Nationalism gets a boost from a handful of elite classical musicians borrowing from trad folk music
that most ordinary folks couldn't give a toss about anyway..."...???

Oh I don't know.. nationalism is too much of a minefield of crank theorising to get my head round...!!!

..and of course I am also playfully indulging in simplistic stereotypes..
We shouldn't be so presumptious and snobbish.. eh...???

Of course ordinary folks can know about and enjoy folk, classical, and all kinds of pop culture music...
That should have been the benefit of good state mass education..
.. or at least was until the early 1980s...
WE don't want nationalist soap boxers, or any other crackpots preaching what we should or shouldn't listen to, or reject...

So then, if we ignore the efforts of various nationalist think-tankers attempting to appropriate our trad heritage for their own ideological motives:
obviously we'd all agree it's great to be proud of and promote our own traditions..
Even if other folk's traditions from other parts of the world
are far more enjoyable to listen to and perform than ours...

Yep, can't beat positive internationalism... it's great...


I'm currently listening to Russian and Japanese Surf Music and Rockabilly bands..
Bloody good musicians with their own culturally filtered interpretation,
possibly playing it even better than the real old thing...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:58 PM

To clarify, PFR, I'm saying appreciate other cultures as well as your own, but only practise and perform your own culture - in order to keep our world/our UN nice a multicultural/ethnically diverse, and improve the state of folk music in England, Scotland Wales, Ireland, etc.; just as anthropologists should be careful what gifts they bear.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 07:36 PM

WAV - that's apartheid.

Its like saying African people have nothing to contribute when they perform Shakespeare.

We don't live in isolated villages any more. We are lucky enough to have access to all sorts of cultures. And we have the artistic freedom to practice whatever kind of music we think will help us express ourselves.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 07:52 PM

WV - I think you need to listen to this song

https://thehallbrothers.bandcamp.com/track/how-deep-is-this-valley


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 07:56 PM

"appreciate other cultures as well as your own, but only practise and perform your own culture"

Sorry WV, I just can't go with that. I play the fiddle. If I were to restrict myself to English tunes I would miss out on learning a wealth of different skills and techniques and a whole lot of fun! I would also miss out on the opportunity to play with musicians of other cultures. Remember that most of these cultures: Irish, Scottish, Old time, Bluegrass, French, French-Canadian, Cajun, Zydeco etc are the result of cultural mixing but are now discreet cultures of their own.

From a personal perspective, I would find English tunes a very bland and dull diet without, at the very least, some Irish and Scottish let alone a smattering of any of the above. (And yes, I have seen John Kirkpatrick - many times!)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:03 PM

Sorry forget to do the clicky link thing in my post above
Hall Brothers 'How Deep is this Valley'


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:05 PM

GUEST,Captain Swing, are you familiar with Jean Carignan?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:26 PM

Fwiw, songs written today will be labelled 'traditional' at some point in the future.

I prefer house sessions myself. You are with folk you respect and choose to be with. The one bad thing is this, it can become very insular. New blood is essential to all genres of music otherwise familiarity will deliver a lethal contempt.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:02 PM

appreciate other cultures as well as your own, but only practise and perform your own culture
Somebody has acquired the new woke orthodoxy over "cultural appropriation".


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:31 AM

Thanks, Joe G. From the responses so far then, what would you say the state of folk music in the UK currently is? I, like you, am in Yorkshire and in my particular area (Airedale) I have no complaints at all. Until about 10 years ago I did travel quite a lot and, wherever I went, I could usually find a folk club. Folk music may have evolved a little since 1954 but I think that in the main we have nothing to worry about.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:53 AM

"We all have our own "loose definition"
I have always said that, as listener or a singer, I don't need a 'definition' Dave, it is only when I write or talk about folk song that I need to be more precise
The Revival I was part of was based on had the most reliable and accessible 'definition' possible "I know a folk song when I hear one" - hopelessly inaccurate for research, but perfect for allowing you to choose what you listen to
The fact that this was generally agreed meant that you didn't have to send scouting parties out before you were guaranteed to hear the songs you thought you were going to hear
It was never a 'rule', it was more a general guide based on a definite type of song rather than on adhering strictly to it
An agreement on what that sound is no longer exists and, as for the present scene being based on anything - if it is it seems to be based on long rejected pop songs, from some arguments put up here
Our choice of what we wish to listen to was the first victim of the sea change that has taken place - it has been taken from us
I was told that if I wanted to hear the songs I know to be folk, I would have to go to places that didn't necessarily cater for them - how ridiculous is that?
Once that happens, the scene loses any direction and cohesion, and interest falls off - that would be the case with anything

There can be no argument that the clubs have declined dangerously - your own figures presented as a rise in fortune show that
There may be more professional musicians on the scene today - but that is a sign of personal success, not that the music is in a good state
At the time of the 'Crap Begets Crap' argument in Folk Review, one of the loudest howls was on the deterioration of singing standards - if nothing was done about that then the standards could only have got worse
I have been involved on this forum a number of times where suggestions of requiting a basic standard or expecting people to have learned the songs they sing has been howled down as "elitism" and expecting to hear songs resembling what I know to be folk" at folk clubs as "folk policing" or even "folk fascism"
That level of hostility got the last thread closed so our freedom to discuss our music openly of also being taken away

I make a point of listening to links put up during these discussions - I just have
I invariably find myself clicking out after a few bars, not because I don't like it but because it is irrelevant to what is being discussed - it ain't 'folk' or even 'folksy' in any way shape or form
New songs need to be made if a folk movement is going to have a purpose, but if you call your clubs or festivals or songs after a specific type of of creation, it needs to relate to the name you choose for it
"Folk" is fairly specific in terms for creative culture
The number of clubs, Festivals and other platforms for our communicating with one another that are steadily disappearing ought to be indication enough that all isn't too well - no matter how good your own personal pool may be, if the general indication are of an impending drought, something needs to be done
I'd have thought the disappearance of FRoots enough to suggest all is not well?

Every time someone posts how well their club is doing I think of the story of the feller falling down the side of the the Empire state building saying, "So far, so good"
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:34 AM

The positives:

A far broader range of opportunities to hear live folk music, from festivals big and small, traditional folk clubs, house concerts, sessions, singarounds, etc. As well as the traditional pub, which may have excluded some, folk can now be found in a wider range of premises, from theatres to private homes.

The internet makes it much easier to listen to recordings of both contemporary and source singers - VoTP is on Spotify. For example, I recently decided to re-learn "Our Captain Cries All Hands" and I was quickly able to find several sets of lyrics and listen to versions as varied as those by the Oysterband and Pop Maynard - all immediately available on line.

It also makes it much easier to learn about folk music and folk performers, and discover where to find it. The demise of magazines such as fRoots is sad but is a reflection that much of what it provided can now be found online.

Greater availability of good quality instruments and more importantly much better access to tuition, from workshops to one-to-one sessions. Thanks to Skype you don't need to find a local teacher, they don't even have to be on the same continent.

As a consequence, the standard of performance by those who make the effort to learn and improve is on the whole far higher than it used to be. The technical ability and musicianship of many young musicians amazes me. They have also got away from the reverse snobbery that saw musical knowledge and training as a barrier to being an authentic folk singer, many have had a good musical education and are all the better for it.

Negatives:

An overall reduction in the number of venues, especially the traditional club model with regular guest performers supported by floor singers. This reduces the choices available and perhaps leads to the situations Jim has found himself in where his choice of material is not acceptable to a particular audience, and their preferred material is not acceptable to him. Once this wouldn't have mattered, you'd simply find a different club more aligned to your preferences, but now this might not be possible in your locality.

Despite the higher standards at the top end of the scale, there is also a tolerance of low standards of performance which once would not have been acceptable outside events intended specifically for novices.

Taken together, this makes it less likely that on a random visit to a new folk club you will find the sort of folk music you like performed to a reasonable standard. This now takes more searching out and perhaps a willingness to travel further.

Continual and fruitless attempts on Mudcat to answer the unresolvable question "What is folk?"


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:42 AM

I would be prepared to go to a gig on jims recommendation
"We need to convince English that appreciating, practising and performing their own good culture is a right and proper thing to do"
I have no problem with this as long as other folk cultures are not deliberately ignored


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:45 AM

"Folk" is fairly specific in terms for creative culture
The number of clubs, Festivals and other platforms for our communicating with one another that are steadily disappearing ought to be indication enough that all isn't too well - no matter


How on earth can you say folk is fairly specific in terms for creative culture. You can give the tune a scientific analysis, some would argue you could dothe same for the lyrics, but I would question that. The classification within any particular genre is entirely subjective so trying to define an objective scientifically defined box to classify it within is a non starter. The box is an entirely fuzzy construction with tenuous walls with differing views as to where they should lie.
To me this means the actual definition of folk is inevitably hazy. Everyone agrees with the core idea but places the boundary in different places. It is not worth arguing over because it is an argument with no resolution. Just accept the boundaries are subjective and cannot have precise definition.
Traditional venues are closing. That is as true in Ireland as in the UK,you cannot argue with statistics. That is a function of the changed mores of society. If the decline of folk is part of the collateral damage so be it. However as society changes so do avenues for entertainment.
A person can go to a folk club and sit is a degree of discomfort to hear a performance of variable quality, or get a supermarket sixpack and listen to a perfect rendition on youtube. You equate loss of venue with loss of "audience" That is an assumption with nothing to determine whether the basic premise is true or false. I would argue it is difficult to determine the present state of folk in the UK because you conflate venue with audience.If a passive listener the material is available electronically 24/7 and no one has the first idea as to how big that audience may be.Is the club the be all and end all. For performers is the session not of far more interest?
There would seem to be a lot of assertions and very little in the way of supporting facts. The world of the sixties was a very different beast to the world of today. Has the enthusiasm for folk diminished, or simply changed? The tools used to gauge the health of the genre in the sixties need to be traded in for those of the new millenium,
The word communication needs clarification. In a session it is two way, for a club audience it is essentially one way, apart from polite applause. The communication is in the listening. If you do not like something you cease to listen, unless a masochist.
The eight track, cassette player, Cds and walkman opened up a whole new world beyond vinyl, mainly portability and music on demand . You do not have to be a performer to be an aficionado, you do not have to be in a club to enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:45 AM

"Continual and fruitless attempts on Mudcat to answer the unresolvable question "What is folk?""
If it's unresolveable Howard why is it necessary to use continue to us a term that doesn't mean anything anymore ?
We - you, I and those here may bot be able to agree on what it means, but it's too well defined, and has been for a long time, tpoo claim that nobody knows what it is
It is an essential part of what we do
I'm more than a litle disappointed that those who, more often than not, stand up for the rights of the less well off shoud remain silent (or even join in) when one of the most important creations of working people stands to be driven back into obscurity by an alternative largely inspired by the product of a predatory, all consuming Music Industry   
Beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:50 AM

The idea that folk culture or music does not have outside influences from other cultures is flawed.
for example some of the reels in Irish music, were originally scottish, and one or two were strathspeys or other tempos, the polkas that occur in irish music in 2/4 and england in 4/4 were originally mid european.an example is the jenny lind polka a tune written to celebrate the famous singer, turns up later in ireland as a slide


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:08 AM

I believe that folk music should be an alternative to the mass produced them and us consumerist driven popmusic.
In my opinion anyone who tries to be create and practise songs and music for the purpose of doin something with skill should be encouraged.therfore i support the uk and irish folk revivals [warts and all]
CCE have been criticised on this forum, however they have played a part in increasing the amount of people playing irish traditional and irish music, some people [myself included] do not like their attempts to make the music competitive or to alter style, and like many organisations they may be becoming over bureaucratic,and perhaps their role will soon be diminishing, but there are many more young people playing trad istrumental music than there is in england or wales


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:26 AM

"I believe that folk music should be an alternative to the mass produced them and us consumerist driven popmusic."
A thousand amens to that one Dick
That's why the revival started in teh first place
It is extremely significant that, when the Pop Industry took folk music under its wing, many who had come to it earlier danced to their tune, watered the songs down and often dressed in funny outfits to perform them
When the maxchine found an anternative music to prey on, the 'Glochamorach' crowd (Tim Lyons's wonderful description) were left in the lurch and the true devotees were left to pick up the pieces
Pop styles come with a sell-by date, our folk song proper has proven to be as timeless as Homer and Shakespeare
On satirday I'm playing a cante-fable form ballad that has it's roots in Ancient Egypt and is still sung as 'Get Up and Bar the Door'
I worth that's worth keeping that in mind
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM

Cultural intermingling in a non-musical context: my wife's younger son has a portrait that has come down in the family from around 1800 of a priggish wealthy Scottish gent (usually referred to as "The Ancestor"): it's probably by Sir Henry Raeburn. It usually has a glass of single malt whisky standing in front of it.

The idea came from our friend Lisa (who killed herself at the weekend, largely as a result of Brexit destroying her whole future). She was born in England of Chinese parents and while she was socially like any bright and dynamic young Englishwoman, she was also a serious Taoist. So her take on The Ancestor was that he deserved appropriate offerings, which meant Lagavulin.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:58 AM

@Peter C: Bermondsey Folk Club has found a new home at the Partizan Brewery, which I think is an independant brewery in a railway arch. Have a look on Facebook and it shouldn't be difficult to find the event.

Actually quite a suitable example for this thread: showing the sort of ingenuity folk club organisers have to resort to venue-wise to keep a club going!

Just to pick up on the traditional material/singer-songwriter material thread in some of the posts above: I have no problem with clubs where singers sing a mix of trad songs, trad-influenced singer-songwriter stuff (eg Dylan/Jansch/Baez/Gillian Welch) and their own songs. It's when the balance shifts so that the trad stuff is almost not there that it becomes a problem. A good club organiser/host can find ways of 'keeping it trad'.

I've been seriously into traditional music for about 15 years now (before that it was something I listened to, but not obsessively) and it doesn't seem to me as if there's been a downward spiral in that time. The folk clubs in London seem to be more or less as I first found them. If anything there appear to be a few more clubs with younger audiences, so they tend to come and go a bit.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:16 AM

I'd have thought the disappearance of FRoots enough to suggest all is not well?

The very sad demise of fRoots is much more complicated than an expression of the current state of folk music in UK. In fact, the state of the their subscription list was very healthy, but the majority of income of any national magazine derives from advertising. The virtual collapse of the sales of CDs meant that the folk & world music record companies that produced them cut back on everything except that was a sure fire success and they cut their advertising budget to reflect their smaller number of releases. At the same time M


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:34 AM

WHOOPS CONTINUING FROM ABOVE....
At the same time many artists moved to producing their own albums that were intended for sale of gigs. The collapse of shops that sold albums - both specialist and mainstream made self- production both necessary and financially productive.
The efforts of the folk scene to see the magazine continue were very heart-warming. Donations came from and benefit concerts were organised throughout the land. The Copper Family arranged one with Shirley Collins as guest and it was hugely successful, but the fact remained that the single-owner specialist folk/world paper magazine is no longer viable in a rapidly changing society. Costs were rising, income was declining, distribution through retail networks was becoming virtually impossible and the demise was inevitable in spite of the fact that fRoots was streets ahead of comparable publications in design, quality of writing, photographs, in fact in every department, yet the single editor/owner has been left with huge debts.

Ascribing single cause explanations such as I have quoted to complex issues is both deceptive and unhelpful.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Comparisons have been made between the state of folk music in Ireland and in the UK/England. Given the topic of this thread, and on the basis that the comparisons were intended to be relevant, these were presumably made to cast light on the state of folk music in the UK. It seems to me that the situations are different. The key may be in the idea that particular areas of Ireland have come to be seen (for whatever reason) as the home of traditional Irish music, hence attracting tourism, from, presumably those wanting to feel they are engaging with traditional Irish culture (albeit it in English, not Irish). I know English people, some of home have Irish origins, who head for pub sessions when in Ireland. I don't think you will get the same thing in England; tourism here takes a different form.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

Pseudonymous -
The key may be in the idea that particular areas of Ireland have come to be seen (for whatever reason) as the home of traditional Irish music, hence attracting tourism, from, presumably those wanting to feel they are engaging with traditional Irish culture (albeit it in English, not Irish).

Not always having a good effect, either. I have a very sad memory from decades ago of Miko Russell playing in the whistle in the company of a contemporary of his on fiddle in Gus O'Connor's pub in Doolin, Co. Clare to a barrage of young Germans playing not-very-good bodhran. Not a very eddifying sight or sound.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:22 AM

" as the home of traditional Irish music, hence attracting tourism"
Nothing whatever to do with tourism, on the contary
Tourists with death-watch beetle obsession with bodhrans can be a bit of a pain in the arse if not watched
There has been a genuine renaissance of a culture that was believed to be on its last legs - pretty much as the British revival revitalised a music that had been rescued from extinction by the previous revival and found to be acceptable to those tired of the pap being pumped out by the machine
That is a lesson to be learned from what has happened over here
There are other lessond of course
The history of song-making here has provided vital evidence for our "who made our folk songs" discussion
Irish song's link with it's social and political history is now well beyond the suggestion that most of its songs were made for commercial reasons

Deliberate attempts to use a music they didn't understand failed dismally in the tourist industry
Now we have people coming over just to hear the music - and to learn to sing and play it

Whatever the successes of some folk clubs in no longer catering for those who like folk music - unless you either change your identifying logo or live up to it, it can only possibly be short-term, especially if you have a gathering of folk clubs that cant agree on what the term means
As far as I am concerned, 'Identity theft' is the name of the game nowadays - if it says, 'folk' it should be folk
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:26 AM

Irish insturmental music is obviously huge in a way that English isn't, and it has been institutionlised via things like Comhaltas. It would be nice if English music had anything like that profile.

However, I'm not sure that extends to song in quite the same way. I could name hundreds of popular english traditional singers all plying their trade (Eliza Carthy, Jon Boden etc) whereas it's a lot harder for me to think of many Irish counterparts.

That might be cos I simply don't get to hear of them over here (in England) but it doesn't strike me that Irish folk song is significantly healthier than English in terms of numbers or profile of practitioners. I could be wrong...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

"However, I'm not sure that extends to song in quite the same way"
It has to Matt
Eliza is a successful" performer people go to listen to
In order for folk song to succeed it has to return to its grass roots where everybody stands a chance of taking a dip without having to be "successful"
This doesn't mean they can't be good at it, of course
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

All I meant was that, as far as I'm aware, the situation in Ireland when it comes to traditional song seems to be much the same as it is in England. Nowhere near as popular as Irish fiddle or dance.

Or am I wrong? Are the folk clubs in Ireland jam packed with teenagers singing ballads?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM

"I know a folk song when I hear one" - hopelessly inaccurate for research, but perfect for allowing you to choose what you listen to

I am sure that is the case. I will stick to choosing what I listen to and leave research to the academics thank you.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM

..."playing not-very-good bodhran."

What other kind of bodhran is there, Vic? ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:20 AM

My comment about unresolvable "What is folk?" discussions on Mudcat was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

"All I meant was that, as far as I'm aware, the situation in Ireland when it comes to traditional song seems to be much the same as it is in England."
Nor really Matt
There is solid backing for Irish language singing which is undergoing a huge revival in its own right
The singing scene never hit bottom as the British one did, but maintained a steady level
New venues like "Larry" have breathed life into it and things are now on the up again
The problem of judging what is happening is that Ireland never really has had a big 'club' scene - a few, but not as many as the UK
I am contantly being knocked sideways at singing sessions (not necessarily traditionally based, but well represented) when a younstar gets up and says "I learned this from the Clare Library website" - the long dead singers we recoded in the seventies and eighties are being given a young voice
I think the situation here was summed up best for me at the Willie Clancy School last year at a singing workshop I was involved in
You expect the people attending to be well versed in the music at teh Willie Week we weer all knocked out when a young woman nobody knew stood up and sang beautifully - I was almost tearful at her singing (a sign of old-age, I'm sure)
I aked where she'd learned to sing and she said she had become interested through watching one of the now many programmes on television and had scrabbled around to find songs, but, because of where she lived, had nowhere to sing them
It seems to me that the singing scene has yet to catch up with the steadily rising interest
If they don't snap them up, teh 'get known quick' media output will
Unless the folkies get their act together, any interest the media might have will quickly dissapate
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM

"Unless the folkies get their act together, any interest the media might have will quickly dissapate" Truer words . . .


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM

Every time the organizational committee of whatever starts one of these "hey, let's make some rules about folk music that nobody will have to follow, but will piss some people off", I think sure, fine, whatever. (NSFW)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM

I don't know if it's appropriate in this thread, but the song lyrics for Jeri's post are at

https://prridot.tumblr.com/post/182727304575/cold-and-analytical-thelogicalloganipus

I'll look later for the author unless someone else finds that info in the interim. Feel free to delete or transfer this post to somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM

"The singing scene never hit bottom as the British one did, but maintained a steady level"

Ah well this is it you see; I don't know what 'rock bottom' means in this context. Maybe at some point in the past, but I certainly don't recognise that as a description of what I encounter when I go to folk clubs (in England). I hear a healthy amount of singers old and some young singing unaccompanied traditional English (and Irish and Scottish) songs. Yes, young people are the minority, but there are still young people there. I would be suprised if on the whole Ireland was radically different in that respect.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 09:56 AM

Starhip: "Written and performed by Thomas Benjamin Wild Esq."

Joe, way-back-when, said the subject had run its course. First time I got on the internet, around 1995, people (UK and US) were opining about who should sing what, when and where. The subject will continue as long as some folks have opinions.

And for the record, "cultural appropriation" is pretty much what folk music is for almost all of us. It's just good to be nice about it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 10:10 AM

Matt wrote:-
I could name hundreds of popular english traditional singers all plying their trade (Eliza Carthy, Jon Boden etc) whereas it's a lot harder for me to think of many Irish counterparts.

Well, Matt, in terms of 'plying their trade' maybe dozens but not hundreds.
In terms of current singers - from amateurs to full-time professionals - that personally I find exciting and worthwhile in the way that they deliver traditional songs and ballads, I think that I could probably name as many Irish as English singers and that from a much smaller population.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM

""hey, let's make some rules about folk music "
Nobody ever has (here" Jeri - have you ?
Asking to hear folk songs at folk clubs isn't making rules - it's simple common sense
It doesn't take a 'committee to show the result of that not happening - thousands of enthusiasts walking away, the disappearance of shops, labels, magazines clubs... should have been adequate warning at what happens if your tin didn't contain what the label said it did
The revival that disappeared was a vibrant mix of traditional and newly made songs, accompanied and unaccompanied, sung to a passable standard - when they went, so did the clubs
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 10:49 AM

revival of newly made songs.....????


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 10:59 AM

Sotty - way off topic but anybody in need of cheering up should look up the funeral of Shane Bradley on line
Made my year
JIm


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM

Here's a link to Jim's last post. It's a hoot.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-50041509


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM

Asking to hear folk songs at folk clubs isn't making rules - it's simple common sense

Of course it is. Which is why at every single club I have been to has had folk songs performed at them. They may not be folk songs by your "loose definition" but they are by mine and they are by Raggy's. As I said before, "We all have our own "loose definition". Who judges which one is right?" Remember your own words too "I have always said that, as listener or a singer, I don't need a 'definition" .


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 12:54 PM

"Of course it isn't. Dave - don't be silly
Would you describe going into as greengrocers shop and expecting to find potatoes and peas "rules"
Why the hell should you not apply the same common sense to expecting to hear folk songs in folk song clubs
Your definition needs relate to what you call your songs and you need to describe it if you want to draw in the punters
I'm surprised you haven't responded to my point about the damage this silliness is doing to 'Songs of the People - or maybe not
This deliberate confusion which has been created by what we have always known as folk song is killing it off - or at lrast, driving it into archives
That saddens me - I thought iwt ould have dsaddened everybody who cared
Sorry about that
You are still the most persistent opponent of what I argue but you insist you agree with my description of folk song
Can't for the life of me understand that one
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

I know it is not about UK folk, but I found what PFR had to say about folk from other places. He mentioned Eastern Europe and Arabic Music..I too listen to a lot of music from those parts of the world.
I wonder if he would care to share some of his favourite sites, musician info ?
   Now for a brief analogy. It has been suggested here that the lack of clubs is an indication of the decline in folk music..People say that the closing of book shops is an indication that people read less..not so. Along with PFR I think people are simply accessing books. music and culture in general, in different ways.
   I listen to a lot of music on YouTube and am hearing styles, genres and artists that could I not have heard a few short years ago.
    The other great thing is that we no longer have to restrict our playing or listening to local or national traditions..the world is there for us and music is one of the great joys..no need to define it..just enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM

You are not making sense, Jim. I suggest you re-read what I just said. It makes perfect sense to expect folk songs at folk clubs. And that is what I get.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM

I've been some sort of folkie for over half a century...
So by now I've got a fairly educated ear for 'good' music...

So, when I suggest too much of our indigenous British folk music
is just plain dull and dreary compared to foreign folk music,
then I'm making a serious point.
Not just being contrary and provocative for the sake of trolling...

Nationalists who exploit our trad folk culture for political motives,
who put ideology before quality of music,
are not real music fans...

so there...!!!

Call me a traitor if you like...

Though I really do want to hear British folk music that engages and inspires me
as much as Eastern European music does..

Obviously, I can't make a full and intelligent judgement, or dismiss so much of my own national culture
whilst I am still deprived of hearing most of the fabled lost Bulmer hoard...
That is a void in our heritage that is inexcusable.
It's frustrating not/never knowing what treasures may be rotting away amongst it all...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:15 PM

Hi-Lo wrote:-
I know it is not about UK folk, but I found what PFR had to say about folk from other places. He mentioned Eastern Europe and Arabic Music..I too listen to a lot of music from those parts of the world.
I wonder if he would care to share some of his favourite sites, musician info ?


I also listen to a lot of foreign folk music and would join in discussions of it, but I think you would need to start a new thread with a suitable title to attract those who are interested.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:16 PM

100


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

DTG asked me earlier 'From the responses so far then, what would you say the state of folk music in the UK currently is? ...... Folk music may have evolved a little since 1954 but I think that in the main we have nothing to worry about.'

My own impression is that folk music in the UK (as I described the genre in my opening comment and is broadly accepted by many people here I think) is generally in good health.

I am at the moment listening to Jim Moray's latest release which is, I think, exclusively made up of traditional songs and I'm looking forward very much to Jon Boden's new CD which also will include much traditional material alongside some of his own superb songwriting. Jon's Folk Song A Day project has also been a great resource of traditional material.

There are many young artists making superb music that I would categorise as folk and, certainly in York and around there is plenty of opportunity to participate in music sessions, though singarounds are thinner on the ground - though as I do not usually attend these I may be out of the loop. Having said that the Black Swan Folk Club does have a Singers and Musicians night once a month.

Festivals are thriving (I am off to Musicport this weekend which features folk music from across the world - though perhaps not in the form that some here would appreciate) and, along with most festivals I am aware of, offers workshops and other participatory activities

As had been mentioned by others I think the main challenge is the availability of venues and this I think has been more of an issue than people not exclusively performing/ sharing a more tightly defined class of folk songs. Of course other issues eg easier access to music via the internet, cost of going out for a night, austerity, a far greater range of live music options will have also had an impact on clubs and again I consider these even individually, let alone collectively, will have had more of an impact on attendances than what types of songs are sung. The Black Swan Folk Club in York is sold out or close to sold out when I attend and so they must be doing something right!

So generally I would say the folk scene is in good health (but does need to be nurtured and supported) and I am enjoying the fact that I can discover new music easily as well as still hearing those artists I grew up on Jez Lowe, Wilson Family, Bob Fox, Runrig, Steeleye Span etc.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:26 PM

Don't know where any of that comes from
I'm certainly not a nationalist
Folk song has been regarded as 'The Voice' or 'The songs of the People since day on
Go look at the title Topic chose for it's mammoth and continuing series
Good or bad doesn't come into the issue - not all folk songs are by any meand "good" just as not all pop songs are bad" - taht's a matter of personal taste
THat the fact that a whole social group of people who have largely been regarded as not being culturally creative have been found to have been creating songs which reflect their lives and aspiration since the time of The Venerable Bede is not 'political' - it is a fact that should be roaed from every rooftop from Lands End to John-'o- Groats as loud as voices can carry it
It is 'political' to attempt to prevent that message from coming across
I got tired of peole telling me that the Traditional Ballads were "too good to have been created by the people", yet we owe their survivel to the lowest social group in |Britain, Tinkers and Travellers
Not neatly enough people know that - as Michael Caine should have said
Dave Biulmer's untouchable collection is a screaming example of what happens when money is allowed to dominate the folk scene
Jim
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:37 PM

HiLo - My listening is mostly very late at night after the wife has gone to bed.
So, Youtube is also my main source...
Random links that start with one song, and end up hours later
when I'm tired enough to go to bed.
My youtube history is dauting if I want to find an individual song again...
.. and my memory for names is disorganised and useless..

Some videos are so good, I will immediately google and wiki the artists...

So recent favourites are USA band Kitka

One CD can be heard on Amazon Prime..

and Russians Otava Yo

I've found their tracks on free download somewhere..

Those are two I can remember and find again quite easily...

Btw.. errrm.. thanks to the nether reaches of the internet,
there are barely viewable quality Turkish soft p0rn movies from the 1970s
with very listenable soundtrack music...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM

Jim - Eh ..?? wasn't even thinking about you when I posted that...

Dunno why you took that one a little personally...???

Just take a walk about back up the thread to last night's posts,
and you'll get the idea wot I'm on about...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

Thanks PFR...your youtube drifting seems a lot like mine..all over the place. Watched a chap last night who was playing two guitars at once, and playing them well.
I would be very interested in learning more about international music Vic. Perhaps a thread on that would be of interest to others as well.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:12 PM

I agree a new thread on music from across the world would be good.

As you'll not from my crossed posting I'm a fan too and would be happy to give some recommendations and receive some as well :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM

"Jim - Eh ..?? wasn't even thinking about you when I posted that..."
Sorry P - getting touchy in my old age
I'll look later - Holby City and The Troubles calls - might need the services of the first before long

Joe
"I agree a new thread on music from across the world would be good."
Amen a thousand times
The tragedy of this forum is that (I am told) the few Moslems that once posted were driven off by Islamophobia - I have Irish friends who washed their hands of the site for the same reason
If It's of any interest, I havve care of a huge number of international albums - with notes, and radio programmes on international music from some of the best reseachers (Levy, Battachara etc)
If anybody is looking for anything in aprticular, please let me know - if anybody wants them all they will have to send me a sizeable hard drive
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:45 PM

It's positive nationalism, Big Al, from someone who loves our world/our UN being multicultural as much as anyone.

Joe G - would be nice to see the English cittern (rather than the Spanish guitar getting a guernsey; apparently, a couple of centuries ago, there was one in almost every barber shop and tavern in England; I have seen Jez Lowe play one but, sadly, that is all...more on English Instruments

Captain Swing - are you sure there is not enough variety and interest WITHIN the English tradition? Without reaching trad purity, you could at least lean toward your own culture as much as possible - just as many Buddhist strive for nirvana - and, thus, help keep our world nice and multicultural.

E.g., my repertoire introduced with a tenor recorder/English flute and sung either unaccompanied or with the melody doubled on keyboards - NOT pure English but leaning well toward an aspect of my own good culture.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM

WV - I don't think there is such a thing as trad purity and it's certainly not something I would hold as desirable. Traditions are by nature impure.

If traditions were pure there would be, for example:

no Morris dancing in England
no bagpipes in Scotland
no banjos in America or Ireland (or anywhere else other than Africa).

Also:
Shetland music without the Scandinavian influences would not be Shetland music as we know it.
Northumbrian music without the influences of Irish and Scottish music would not be as rich.
Cajun, French-Canadian, Cape-Breton, Zydeco, would all not exist.
Bluegrass would not exist.

I'd be very surprised if you could give an example of a pure musical tradition.

One of the best musical experiences that I have had was at a concert about 2yrs ago at the Celtic Connections festival in Glasgow. The last set of (Celtic) tunes involved all of the acts that had performed. There were about 60 people on stage from the all four countries of the UK, from Ireland, from many European countries, from Africa, from Asia, from America and Canada. The instruments being played were equally as diverse. The performers had only one afternoon to rehearse and most had never met each other before. The performance was a dynamic and joyful collaboration mixing rhythms, harmonies and counter melodies. Now this was ('nice') multiculturalism WV. This created happiness and friendship and brought people together. And at no time were any traditional cultures harmed in the process.

Seeking 'trad purity', apart from being an impossible mission, also seeks to set people apart from each other, highlight differences rather than commonality, divide rather than include and promote intolerance. All in all not very useful.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:01 PM

Sorry, the last message was from me.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM

Daft as I may be, I have taken to watching reruns of detective programs on ITV3 at 8. Tonight it is Midsomer Murders. They have just changed from John Nettles to Neil Dudgeon.

You know, when I watch Midsomer Murders, I expect to see John Nettles. Not this new fangled Dudgeon bloke. Just who is who defines what a Barnaby should be anyway...

:D


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:26 PM

Aha - Viking sponsors early evenings on ITV...………………………………………….3!!!!!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM

You too then Bonzo! I'm hooked :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

Captain Swing: the last time I tuned into Celtic Connections it was more like "Curious Connections"- reinforced by your words.

And, yes, if you had read my post more carefully, we would agree on trad purity but we can keep leaning toward our own traditional ways - being impressed by how our own forebears did things, which is largely how traditions have survived (along with National Treasures in Japan).

Very sadly, to many in England now, their culture is dipping a pizza in a curry, after a night of American pop, and before fanatically supporting a World 11 in a premier league/farce.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:08 PM

WV: If you went to Celtic Connections you would find masses of people interested in the development of, not only their own traditions, but those of others too. Traditions by their very nature will change and develop over time and are subject to influence. If it doesn't change it is not a tradition it is simply a repeated process.

As regards English trad music (not songs), I find too much of it to be over simple in rhythm and melody and too predictable. There are notable exceptions of course, eg Playford. I'm guessing here, but perhaps we English have not enjoyed the same intense culture of social dance that say the Irish and Scots have. That same dance culture still exists in those places as it does in 'Celtically Connected' places eg Canada and Louisianna. ( I'm very sure someone will correct me here).

Regarding curry, I love the stuff but not with pizza. Of course the Indian curry we now consider authentic is usually not made by Indians but Bangladeshis and is very different to the original Asian preparations - that's tradition for you!

I think it's worth remembering the words of that great mixer of cultures, Dave Swarbrick on taking liberties with the tradition - "It's ok, the music won't mind!"


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:56 PM

"Of course the Indian curry we now consider authentic is usually not made by Indians but Bangladeshis and is very different to the original Asian preparations - that's tradition for you!" (CP)...or is it economic/CAPITALIST immigration?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

An example of a folk event that is slowly circling the drain with stultifying uniformity:

Scottish Fiddle Festival

It's always been ethnically exclusive, a spinoff of the moribund "Celtic music" idea expanded to include the equally Aryan traditions of Scandinavia and North America. Coffee-coloured or black violin traditions don't get a look in, even for such au lait varieties as Greek or Romanian fiddling.

Most of the people you'll see on that billing are unknown outside Edinburgh. Probably they don't have the money to do anything different now - Rhiannon Giddens would be way over budget - but Abdo Dagher or Aurel Mandache wouldn't exactly have broken the bank when they were alive, and they'd have brought musical ideas that would have been new and inspirational to almost everybody participating.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM

Don't confuse economic migration - what working people do to survive and/or better themselves, with capitalism. Capitalism is about the rich exploiting the poor by failing to pay them in accordance with the full value of their labour in order to make the rich richer.

Immigration is simply travel and resettlement - nothing more. It is usually of immense benefit to the receiving area/country and should be seen as such.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM

well, Jim, I too have washed my hands of below the line due to bigotry there. however, I find, for the most part, one can discuss ethnic and cultural music in the rather better atmosphere up here. I would very much enjoy a thread on international, intercultural music..many of us ,I think, would quite enjoy that, yes .


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM

Disagree, CP (people - often the better off - don't emigrate to England for the sunshine and, if from South Asian or African nations, often suffer rickets), but we should not drift further from the thread's topic, I think you will agree.

I'm not one, but I hope some of the session musicians (and I have enjoyed quite a few at the Cumberland Arms in Newcastle, e.g.) come on and introduce you to some of the English tunes that are not so "over simple in rhythm and melody and too predictable".


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:27 PM

Personally I don't believe we have any control about the songs or styles that inspire us to creativity.

Of course I did consider being the voice of the midlands folkscene, a sort of Lincolnshire Mike Harding - when I was starting out.

It was the smart move at the time of the great traddy purge in the 1970's - a time when the traddies were in the ascendant. Their electro groups were in the charts. they sneered loudly at at any American influenced or even American songwriter. And really they did for the for the folk clubs what Thomas Cromwell did for the monastries, as the vast majority of people at the time were there to hear American based material.

However the thought of realligning my entire sensibility to fit in with some ignoramus view of folk music was anathema to me - and it still is.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:57 PM

Nationalist Folk Club


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM

Ouch! A bit harsh but I recognise some truth in that - though most folkies I know are thankfully left leaning caring people.

Can we return to the original subject now please and not descend into arguments about capitalism and immigration. This is one place I would prefer to get away from the political discussions I usually find myself being drawn in to! Politics is very relevant to folk music of course and I think it is shameful the way the folk scene appears to have almost completely ignored one of our greatest songwriters Robb Johnson so I think discussion of the different approaches of clubs and festivals to political songwriters is relevant but as please keep it friendly - unless of course anyone makes openly racist or sexist comments in which case they deserve both barrels!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:26 AM

"Personally I don't believe we have any control about the songs or styles that inspire us to creativity."
Of course we don't - we use what we know
What is unique about folk songs, in my opinion, is their connection with natural speech - they turn spoken or thought-about experiences into verse - the old singers sang them as near as they possibly could to how they would have spoken them
They tend to be streams of consciousness rather than self consciously composed verse (the best of them do anyway).
That's how they appear to me, I believe that's why so many of MacColl's songs spread as far as they did and have lasted as long as they have
Ewan hardly ever visited Ireland, yet most of his songs on Ireland sound Irish; 'Indeed I Do', 'Tunnel Tigers', 'New Rocks of Bawn', 'Rambler From Clare', 'Farewell too Ireland', 'Come Me Little Son'.... all made from interviews with Irish people
I can't thing os another song form that allows you to do that to the extent folk form does.

"Jim, I too have washed my hands of below the line due to bigotry there"
I have found isolated spots of bigotry and I know Irish people who won't post to this forum because of the little there is; I believe we've lost Asians in the past
The problem below the line is that so much is about politics, and that causes trouble everywhere - Ive been into pubs with signs over the counter   saying "no religion, no sport, no politics" - especially in Liverpool
"Bigotry", doesn't wash for me - try "over-enthusiasm"

"Immigration is simply travel and resettlement - nothing more. It is usually of immense benefit to the receiving area/country and should be seen as such."
That should be carved in stone and displayed in every town square in Little England - not understanding that fact has placed a huge question mark over the future of our country - even society as a whole

PFR
I see now that you weren't referring to me - my sincere apologies for thinking you were - should have known better
I confess I am grateful for my own mistake - another excuse to say what I believe about folk song - "every little helps" as Tesco chants out interminably
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:33 AM

I know a lot of right leaning, caring people, and they are folkies too.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:24 AM

"I know a lot of right leaning, caring people "
So do I
People are people everywhere apart from and often despite their politics
In the end you have to judge all politics by the overall objectives of their philosophies
I have difficulties in getting my head around politics based on conserving a grossly unequal and predatory society
I no longer consider myself just left, as I once did - I think I am a social humanist and in order to have got here I find I haven't had to shed too many of my early beliefs (some maybe)
Doesn't mean I have become more tolerant, mind - heaven forfend :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM

It depends whether you believe that guest booking folk clubs help to raise standard of [performance,if one does believe this then one must be concerned at the diminishing number of guest booking folk clubs in the uk.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM

With respect Dick
Guest standards should never be a measure of club standards
If the level of resident performances cannot be raised and new people be drawn in, you may as well fold your tent and just run concerts
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

Sandman. By way of a contrast do you think folk is as vibrant in your part of west Cork as 20/25 years ago?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM

Surely the answer is quite simple.

If you want to have a strictly trad policy - you put it in the title of your club.

If you want to have singers and poets and whatever of any sort turn up and play - put that in the title of your club.

No one wants to listen to stuff they don't like.

If you feel the situation has come to this crisis point, wouldn't this solve the problem?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:36 AM

Thinking back, if you ask Dave Sutherland - he will tell you - I very rarely darkened the door of his club. The guest list of the Tiger in Long Eaton informed anyone of any intelligence, that an act like mine would have been ten minutes of pain for his audience.

I think I only went there when Brian Peters was playing, and I knew him cos we'd done a few things with him before and regarded him as a mate.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM

`"If you want to have a strictly trad policy - you put it in the title of your club."
Has anybody ever suggested this Al ?
If not, why raise it
I've haven't been to a strictly trad club for at leas thirty years and I never went back
A strictly trad policy would turn the revival into a museum - I've got sore fingers typing that
If woe mean club that specialised in a trad sound, that's a different matter

You appear to be suggesting what others have before you - if you wand folk besed folk clubs - piss off somewhere else   
As an alterinative, why nor identify folk clubs that have nothing to do with folk song or style 'Folkeokies' or simply 'Anything Goes" - it would be far more honest and would produce a far less hit-and-miss situation

It gets more and more like Brexit - "we do the damage, you make the sacrifices and compromise"
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:34 AM

Calling a fish a dog will not make the fish bark.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

"Calling a fish a dog will not make the fish bark".
Not even a dog-fish ?
Don't really understand that Starry !


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM

A few years back I had a discussion with a club owner who was promoting his business as folk. The music that was put on once a week was on a few occasions folk. However, I asked why there were people showing up with amplifiers and electronic machines: guitars, basses, trap sets, etc. I asked how 'de blues' or 'c+w' music was folk. How rockish songwriter stuff was folk. He admitted he didn't know what else to call it, so folk in his world was juat a catch-all name that had no real meaning to either the music his club presented or the people/groups he booked. I left the conversation saying 'You can call a fish a dog . . .' Inevitably it boils down to that old saw from Lewis Carroll: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM

Last post was me in response to Jim. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:13 AM

Oh, the number of times I have used that Humpty quote on this forum!

Glad it's not just me :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:26 AM

It depends whether you believe that guest booking folk clubs help to raise standard of performance

Well you'd think it would wouldn't you. I really do get where you are coming from on this Sandman. But from personal experience some have observed that the "Folk Club" I regularly attend, which runs every two weeks and puts on every year at least six Guest nights, it runs two festivals and puts on three concert nights all involving professional artists and good local performers, the following really odd pattern involving what crowd turns up to what.

Normal Club nights - We get a regular group turning up to play. Standard not really all that great and mostly mediocre 50s, 60s and 70s pop songs. Once in a while we get some quality nights with great singing but those are few and far between.

Guest Nights - Moderately to well attended by a few who turn up at the normal club nights with the bulk made up of people who do not attend normal club nights. The players who turn up at the normal nights rarely if ever tutn up and these would be the people who would benefit from seeing how it should be done.

Concerts - two Fund raisers and one memorial - Same crowd as for Guest nights.

Festivals - Draw in lots of visitors and players all concerts well supported and three sessions running all the time, again the players who regularly attend the normal club nights are nowhere to be seen.

It would seem that those who turn up to play at the normal club nights only actually want to hear themselves and do not seem to be interested in learning or improving.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

Suits me Starry
I thought it was one of those "which would you rather be or a wasp" questions
" “it means just what I choose it to mean"
When there is a definition that seems as silly as it is
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:15 AM

I have seen the same issues as Observer has where regular floor singers stay away from guest nights.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:27 AM

No Jim, i was saying - why not make it clear you want us pesky Beatle strumming gits to go away from your window of opportunity for trad sounding , or even trad singing music


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:48 AM

"Beatle strumming gits to go away from your window of opportunity for trad sounding"
I'd have thought if that's what you do you're not going to get too many genuine Beatles fans queuing up outside folk song club Al
You might actually try folk song Al - you might like it
Otherwise you're flying under false colours
Can't really see that that's unreasonable or purist - just common sense and honesty
It's dishonest to keep repeating that people are calling for a folk-only club when that isn't the case - there's far too much dishonesty surrounding this argument as it is
The words you chose were "trad-only" - you are the only one to use them as as far as I can see
I've never got a reply to my suggestion that you wouldn't do what you do to any other form of music and seem quite happy to drive the people's music into further obscurity
"I don't like it so I don't see why I should give anybody else a chance to" seems a bit mean to me
There you go - it takes all sorts
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 11:59 AM

Just a reminder other views exist...

I feel too excluded from Acoustic club nights...

If I ran a folk club it would be a strict policy of electric amplified Trad folk only.

Possible exceptions at the discretion of the club committee [me]:

because I do like reed & pipe organs, and loud abrasive acoustic instruments like bagpipes and hurdy gurdys..

as long as they stick to playing drones..............

Ok.. flutes and other wind instruments may be eligable..

Sax players will be banned for life if they smuggle in jazz improv phrasing...

That's a folk club I'd happily go to...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM

"you wouldn't do what you do to any other form of music and seem quite happy to drive the people's music into further obscurity"

I have a great deal of sympathy with your point here Jim. I share this example of the line-ups of a local 'folk' festival over the last few years:

https://cottinghamfolkfestival.co.uk/?page_id=2405


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM

"electric amplified Trad folk only."
A contradiction in terms, for a start, but what yuo are saying is, while you object to others confining themselves to a specific type of music, you are quite happy to put restrictions on your own
Yeah well - that sounds reasonable to some, I'm sure!
Yours list doesn't even approach asking that clubs calling themselves 'folk' commit themselves to presenting a music that lives up to that description
I ask would it be acceptable if Jazz or Classical music were treated with the same disregard and contempt?
Answer comes there none
Has nobody the balls to address the damage that has been created by deciding that folk doesn't mean anything any more ?
Just time-filling here anyway
I'm off to Belfast tomorrow to spend a few days with 70 odd others (I understand) who have no problem understanding a term that has been with us as long as 'folk' has
I hope it'll lift some of the gloom
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:27 PM

Well, classical music is often treated with contempt, as are those who enjoy it..elitists, snobs, singers can'e sing..etc. There have been a number of threads here denigrating classical music;not to mention threads which denigrate, pop, country and almost anything American...but it's ok because I know you are tolerant of diversity....except in taste!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM

Jim - just having a matey piss-take at the dominant intolerant acoustic only orthodoxy...

How many years is it since Dylan was heckled "Judas"...???

It was certainly long ago in a past century...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM

Some interesting names at Cottingham, Cap'n! I would say though that the names do not give us an indication of what the artists are going to perform and how they will perform it. Wilco Johnson, for instance, is a very talented blues guitarist. Should the blues be excluded from folk festivals? Maybe Steve Harley does a very passable famous flower of serving men or Sophie Ellis-Bextor plays melodion. I dunno! :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM

Re the comments from WAV about Celtic Connections. With the festival you get exactly what is stated on the tin. It does not claim to be a festival only for Scottish or any kind of wider Celtic folk music. Is it just this wee musical part of the world making connections with the rest of the world. It states on its website that the festival is over 300 events across "multiple genres of music" and it lists the type of genres as being Folk, Trad, World, Indie, Americana, Jazz&Soul, Gaelic, Blues, orchestral, rock&pop, fusion - plus various other genres. It does not claim to be narrow in outlook as WAV seemingly woud like it to be.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM

I agree that Cottingham Folk Festival is stretching the boundaries and doesn't look like something I'd choose to go to. At the other extreme, another part of Yorkshire is the location for a small traditional music gathering (it's too small to call a festival) which has a strong focus on both traditional songs and music. Capacity is limited so I won't give too much away.

My point is there is something for everyone. And while it's not to my taste, the line-up at Cottingham might attract someone who is then exposed to traditional music for the first time. We all had to start somewhere.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM

I don't kow much about jazz (although I know what I like!)but a quick Google of "jazz controversies" gives a set of results that suggest that the jazz world has similar issues.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM

.. so does 'eavy metal...

..and the various sub genres can get very nasty with each other..

I saw an arm get broken at the Hammersmith Odeon...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:47 PM

we had some rats under our shed - so we called in the rat man.

theres loads of food in the garden - why do you think they push it by going so close to the house, I asked the rat man.

Warmth, said the ratman.

That's really sad...just warmth, that's all they want?

Yes indeed, said the ratman, still they have have their place in nature, and its not under your shed.

I just think from the way you go on JIm - maybe we've been under your shed too long.
Perhaps we shouldn't call folk clubs, the sessions that house us pesky Beatles strumming gits. The problem, as I've said,will be that the great unwashed think Nowhere Man is a folksong - abd you wull have to politely direct them to our un-folk session, if they penetrate your aura.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Kenny
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM

"It would seem that those who turn up to play at the normal club nights only actually want to hear themselves and do not seem to be interested in learning or improving."
I see you've been to Aberdeen :)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:56 PM

£How many years is it since Dylan was heckled "Judas"...???"
Dylan had the decency to sing 'Its all over now Baby Blue and announce he was moving on to rock as a career move though many of the Bobby Soxers tend to forget this
I never liked him even though I tried at the urging of my mates,but I found him interesting inasmuch as way back he was actually basing what he did on folk song
I lost much of that when he refused to tack part in the Freedom Rides in the South he had made hi name singing about and had to be embarrassed ito showing his face when actor-folkie publicly Theodore Bikel presented him with his train fair to Mississippi

I'm not against experimentation, far from it (George Butterworth wrote the most EXQUISITE TAKE on a folk ballad I have ever heard - it only becomes a problem when it dominates the scene and gets mistaken for the real thing

Must pack my Knickers - will look in later in the hope that Brexit has bombed
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:57 PM

I had an uncle, who every time he lit a fag - he'd strike the match and announce, 'See that! Bonfire night in Aberdeen...!'

No, we didn't laugh either....


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:06 PM

This is not a legit discussion of semantics. It's a process of identification. What is folk?
It's a kind of music that when you hear it, you know what it is. When you hear a traditional singer who emanates from a specific area and has grown culturally in that area usually taught by parents or community that is generally isolated from other forms of music found on the radio, TV or movies, and is not prized for showmanship or popularity, then it's probably folk music. If you hear these traditional singers regardless of ethnicity, you know it's the real deal.

Punk Rock is a genre borne of a style of music that is part of the overall rock music genre which is a kind of manufactured music for a specific market. Some of it is quite musical, lyrically sophisticated and worthy of a listen. Some of it is pure hokum.

This can be said for some forms of folk music as well. Texts become bowdlerized, obscure requiring footnotes and some singers are better than others, pitch being truer, vocal production fuller, or instrumental players, some great others mediocre. Just because it's folk doesn't make it better but it does make it folk.

The current state of UK folk music has been obscured by the popular entertainment field.
There is no question that folk music has influenced the pop market as it has classical music but it ain't folk. Folk music is an acquired taste. You have to listen with a different set of ears. When you do, it's rewarding and unlike other forms of music.

The tradition of pub singing is viable in my opinion. You hear ballads in them, songs that you wouldn't hear otherwise and if a folk club is this, I think it works. If it's just a warmed over pop music with out of tune electrified guitars and sounds for the purpose of assaulting the listener or hyping them up into a frenetic contemporary "tarentella",
then it becomes boring quickly.

What Jim is advocating as traditional singing or playing is only appreciated upon listening, participating, suspending judgement reserved for evaluating other musical forms, and learning it and about it. It stands alone.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM

..except..

Many of those of us who were teenagers or slightly older in 1976
who were part of the punk scene from the beginning,
remember that punk and folk were very much inter-related in our small provincial towns...

Often the same people, same attitudes, same ideas, same themes of resistence and rebelion,
same musical competency and limitations,
same methods of indie cottage-industy self recorded and released vinyl and tapes..

etc...

Even sometimes sharing the same amps and PAs at our local gigs...

It's not a simplistic notion of punk or folk / punk versus folk...

Music and culture academics may like to pontificate more on my quick recollections..???

And we're now the 60+ years olds who care greatly about both branches from the same music family tree...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:44 PM

"Re the comments from WAV about Celtic Connections. With the festival you get exactly what is stated on the tin. It does not claim to be a festival only for Scottish or any kind of wider Celtic folk music. Is it just this wee musical part of the world making connections with the rest of the world. It states on its website that the festival is over 300 events across "multiple genres of music" and it lists the type of genres as being Folk, Trad, World, Indie, Americana, Jazz&Soul, Gaelic, Blues, orchestral, rock&pop, fusion - plus various other genres. It does not claim to be narrow in outlook as WAV seemingly woud like it to be." (Allan Conn)...here is Wiki on Celtic music
- a definition that would, indeed, make Celtic Connections seem more like Curious Connections.

And, from here
, "world-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other."


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM

In some people' minds maybe
Punk has it's basis in sound - our singing traditions are word based, the words used to communicate information   

What String says about the recognisable sound of fork is spot-on and it can trancsend national and even language barriers
Sean Nós singer was once played a dozen recordings from all over the world, dome folk, some art, some pop
He identified all but one of the folk pieces correctly
That has to mean something
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

Also, Stringsinger (and it would be nice if it was an English cittern, plucked with or without a feather, being sung with) just made sense, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:03 PM

Stringsinger I think I can understand what you are saying but I come away with the feeling there is an unstated elitism behind what you are saying. Talking about 'out of tune guitars' and 'suspending judgement for other musical forms as folk stands alone' are statements I would take issue with.
Do you not use the same modes of interpretation and impact on the emotions to gauge the worth of a symphony or a pop song, or dare I say a folksong. It has to be a rare bird approaches folk music in isolation as though it is some mighty scientific work to be understood and interpreted as being a wholly unique construction. Is there not a commonality.The film Blackhawk Down used The minstrel Boy as a background and Apocalypse now used the Ride of the Valkyries. Both pieces were chosen for a reason.
What analytical tools can be applied that are specific to "folk"

Please correct me if I misunderstand what you are saying , but I feel what you say can hardly widen the appeal to attract a casual observer and encourage them to greater involvement and to become "Folkies".
But I can also understand that Folk attracts some that like to collect and research the origins of folk music, some like to 'perform', others are happy to be an audience.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

I respect all who self identify as 'folkies'..

Though not so much those who consider themselve's superior because of that choice...

Which can be a real problem,
when that self regarding attitude is being passed onto kids
indoctrinated by the worst of the smug elitist acoustic only folkies...

Fortunately there seem to be fewer of them at mudcat than when I first joined 15ish years ago...

Btw.. Punk.. I'll add that at grass roots provincial level,
before the likes of EMI got £££$$$ in their eyes for a new fad bandwagon to leap on..

The average punk song lyrics were very similar thematically to a lot of old folk songs..

Just, the songs were mostly shorter.. [some might thank punk for that...]

Punk was just as close as Skiffle was to the folk tradition...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM

One thing for sure, when it comes to practising and performing the culture of others, modern English ARE among the world's best/worst - depending on your politics.

It really has gone from one extreme to another over the last 100 years or so - lording it over everyone else to letting everyone else lord it over us.

Why not just admit that our past imperialism was wrong and our present mass immigration is wrong, and that 2 wrongs...

Then, the state of folk music here will improve, along with many our culture and society in general.

Or, in WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM

"Punk was just as close as Skiffle was to the folk tradition..." That is an interesting comment. It's much like cell theory from a class I failed in high school: all cells come from previously existing cells. It is possible to isolate people from music, but I think even the groups of people who try to do that can't stop the leaks. Music forms will continue to develop and some will be accepted by people and some won't. I doubt anything can or should be done about it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM

WV - please keep your right wing political doctrine out of this thread. I disagree with you completely but I don't want this thread to turn into a political argument

Focus on the music and the venues / media where it is performed / heard / discussed please


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM

last quick recollection before I go downstairs for dinner...

.. and this should please UK nationalist muddcatters...

Punk differed from skiffle in that we refrained from singing in American accents...

At that time in the 1970s, us radicalised teenagers were getting sick of USA cultural imperialism in corporate rock music,
and made it a point of principle to sing with our own regional British accents...

.. to a large extent about small scale subject matter that meant something to our local community and mates...

40 years later, I may be generalising, but I do think it was mostly true of grass roots indie punk...

Not so different to folk song...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM

I genuinely believe the recommendation in the last post, Joe G, would improve the state of folk music here.

And are you sure someone who hates capitalism as much as I do, and loves our world/UN being multicultural as much as I do, is Right wing?

In WalkaboutsVerse
, and by getting into my own good culture upon repatriation from Australia to England, after studying Aboriginal land rights, I have got it right.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:07 PM

Agree about singing in your own accent, PFR; having just gone over the 50/50 mark in terms of time here/in Australia, I speak with the mixed accent of a repatriate but could have done better, frankly; however, I at least try to sing English songs with an English accent.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:17 PM

Surely WAV you and everyone else should sing in your own accent? Embrace being shaped by Australia. Otherwise you’re living a lie and presenting a lie to the audience. Or, acting.

I find the idea of “English” culture hilarious, not too long ago it was area vs area, village Vs village. The Idea of one unifying culture is bunkum. Even the language varies from region to region, let alone the music. How many times has the England / Scotland / Wales borders shifted? Are those areas suddenly Welsh? Or English?

It’s hogwash. Birds don’t care for borders, deer or rabbit either. Why should “culture”?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:30 PM

"living a lie" (CJ)...but I AM a repatriate - briefly, born in Saint Mary's Hospital, Manchester, the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the FIFA World Cup, I studied "Pre-colonial Aboriginal Society" and "Aborigines and the State," including Land Rights, at uni in Australia, before repatriating in 1997.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:38 PM

i didn’t say you weren’t a repatriate. I just said that you should sing in your own accent. Stop pretending to be fully formed by England and embrace your Australian heritage. After all, if England’s football team can have numerous heritages in it, and rightly so, I’m sure your accent can.

What English accent do you choose, btw? A sort of BBC thing? An Alf Garnett?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:47 PM

JimCarroll, i agree that the best clubs are ones with strong residents,
at the same time i have seen floorsingers and residents raise their game, one example i remember was when i booked ewan and peggy, another was when Martin Carthy was booked the singers seemed to make an extra effort, i believe this was because they upped their game in the presence of professional performers


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM

CJ - repatriating out of respect for Aboriginal land rights, I see myself as an English repatriate (although, technically a dual national); and, e.g., I came second in the unaccompanied trad song contest at the Alnwick Gathering, a decade or so ago, singing Cob-a-Coaling (not long to go now!) in a Northern accent.

Furthermore, being nearly 4 when my family left, I, of course, learnt to speak with a Northern English accent - maybe with a bit of RP thrown in, because Didsbury was/is quite posh...which was soon knocked out of me on the school playgrounds in Sydney.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 06:33 PM

I was going to start a new thread on this but realised this topic was inexorably linked.

Should we perform only in our own tradition to preserve it? If so, at what point in time to we lay down what the tradition is? Do we perform only English traditions as they were in the 18th and 19th centuries? Do we go further back and perform Anglo Saxon folk? Or do we come up to date, where other cultures have mingled with the English tradition? Whatever that may be!

In much the same way as the Balti house has taken over from the fish and chip shop (itself stemming from Jewish culture), are American country ballads now more relevant to 'folk' than 18th century broadsides? Is Bhangra the new Morris? Or do we feel, as I do, that they should all play a part in our rich tapestry of culture?

Maybe Jim and the traditionalists (good band name) are seeing the dilution of our own folk songs by newcomers and reading it as a fading of the folk culture they grew up with. I am not postulating that this is the only, or even main, cause of their complaints. But does it have a bearing?

Over to you.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 06:40 PM

Teaching by example can only have a very limited effect Dick and it's more likely to produce copyists in my opinion
Booking good guests can have the opposite effect - "I'll never be be able to sing that good so why bother?"
MacColl and others worked on the basis that. unless you had a physical problem, almost everybody could become a singer
He qualified it be saying, if you want to be a better singer you have to put in the hours
He went on to devise a technique whereby an aspiring singer could break down the problems - with help, if possible, but alone if necessary
I saw that work many times - beats the hell out of admiring somebody from afar
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:56 PM

Mr Carroll, could you explain the technique? I would really like to know. Thank you either way.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:39 AM

MacColl and others worked on the basis that. unless you had a physical problem, almost everybody could become a singer

If that is what he thought then I am sorry but he was wrong. MacColl himself was no great shakes as a singer, but that is only my opinion, years and years ago, I only ever listened to MacColl sing to pick up the lyrics, there was not one single song he sang that others (e.g. Luke Kelly) didn't perform and sing far, far better (Same goes for Bob Dylan who I have always regarded as a very poor singer)

He qualified it be saying, if you want to be a better singer you have to put in the hours

The first statement makes what he states here ridiculous, you first have to be able to sing before you can become a "better" singer, especially if you sing in public.

The ability to sing is a natural talent, it is a gift that once recognised can then be built on. The "anybody can sing" school must bear the blame for the absolutely abysmally poor standard of performance you come across in UK Folk Clubs - and no, running workshops within clubs is not the answer if you cannot sing, you cannot sing, best not to impose your shortcomings on an unsuspecting public - they don't deserve that degree of disrespect.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:34 AM

So Ewan got it wrong and Bob cant sing
not to mention the abysmal (absolute) standards in UK Clubs
what an insightful contribution, such humble opinion
truly a naturally gifted contributor
Keep coming back


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM

"If that is what he thought then I am sorry but he was wrong. MacColl himself was no great shakes as a singer"
That is a matter of opinion as you say.
Rather than having died with him, or, as with many singers, after having run their course when people became tired of them, MacColl's recorded songs have never been as accessible as they are now, thirty years after his death and are constantly being re-issued in different formats.
The release of a three?four volume set of live recordings is in the pipeline - that sort of thing doesn't happen with "poor singers" (apart from Florence Foster Jenkins maybe!)

I saw MacColl sing whenever I could; even when I had heard all the songs enough to almost be able to sing them myself - each time I came away having enoyed them and often, with a new take on them
That is, for me, the mark of a great singer
Let's face it, in the technical sense, Harry Cox, Sa Larner and even Jeannie Robertson were not 'good singers' in the technical sense, (I heard and read many criticisms of the speed at which Jeannie sang her songs)
Their greatness came from their interpretations of their songs and their abilities to relive them each time.
Sam Larner and Phil Tanner - old men both, still leave me with the impression that they are singing their best songs for the first time
I believe, as MacColl did, that anybody can learn to do that, jus as, with work, they can improve the quality of the voice with work and dedication
Many of us who have spent our lives singing were told by teachers that they would never be able to sing and were sat at the back of the calss while the others got on with it
Shame on you for your elitism

Incidentally - the abysmally poor standards weren't caused by telling people everybody could sing - they were caused by people telling them it wasn't necessary (and even detrimental) to do so - I was accused many times of being "elitist" and "putting people off" by suggest that clubs should set minimum standards of performance on their club nights
I always suggested (and still do) that the best chances of survival folk singing has is for clubs to set up workshops to help the inexperienced
Throwing them to the wolkves by letting them "have a go" is more likely to kill enthusiasm than it is to develop it

Starship
I have had recordings of the workshops where MacColl's ideas on teaching techniques wre developed and used - relaxation, voice and singing excrcises, along with the arguments for the need for each
I have been intending to make a 'user pack' of them for years but ahve never got around ot it, largely because of discussions like these where I have come away feeling "what's the point?"
I started to put the work of the Group up on the last MacColl threads, but never finished it - I mean to this time
Shortly after The Critics Group broke up I gave a talk on its work at a symposium at County Hall to celebrate Ewan's 70th (nobody wanted that particular
poisoned chalice' because of the acrimony)
I'm happy to let anybody have the script of that talk if anybody wants it - an e-mail address will do - it's not too bad a background (or so people said at the time)
Off to Belfast in a few hours so it'll have to wait till next week
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM

Of course there are those who do not want to sing. Those who enjoy folk song but just want to be entertained. And do not want to sit through some wannabe Harry Cox or Sam Lerner trying to improve their singing in public.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM

"Of course there are those who do not want to sing."
Of course there are Dave, but it's nice to know it's there if you want to
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:26 AM

When I look at the websites for the programmes of The Goose is Out, Tooting Folk Club, Islington Folk Club, Musical Traditions, Cellar Upstairs, Croydon Folk Club, Twickenham Cabbage Patch, there's more acts I'd like to see than I have time to attend.

And that's not counting singarouds such as Bermondsey FC, A Roving Folk Club, Sharps, the Harrison and others. And that's not counting gigs at The Green Note or the aforementioned Harrison. And that's not counting sessions.

So where I live there's plenty of folk.

Interesting albums being made up and down the UK by the likes of Nick Hart, Stick in the Wheel, Lankum, Alasdair Roberts, Cath & Phil Tyler, Burd Ellen and probably others I've not heard of; while the elder statespeople such as Martin Carthy and John Kirkpatrick continue to tour and record.

As spheres of musical activity go, folk's not doing too badly. Were folk to be cuturally 'bigger' in the UK, it would of course be a good thing for its professional exponents, but it wouldn't actually make much difference to my personal existence: I'm already at the limits of the time I have to engage with such content; I don't have the time to go to all the current folk clubs and gigs currently extant.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:38 AM

Fine if you live within reach of the few remaining
This is Wiki's estimate - as rliable as anything Wiki comes up with I suppoose but then again the numbers speak for themselves

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. But the decline began to stabilize in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s.[43]
Complacency is going to do as much further damages as is identity theft
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:10 AM

There's no such thing as a person who cannot sing, unless they have some physical or mental malady that literally presents them from opening their mouths and singing. Sure, we're not all Freddie Mercury, but we all have unique voices that are to be valued. For me, all those X Factor people who warble and vibrato and mid-atlantic meah are awful singers, as they have none of themselves and a whole lot of other people. Give me an untrained voice any day of year.

That said, Ewan M's techniques - as I understand them from Jim's explanations - for teaching people how to physically become a more at ease singer - more comfortable, more themselves - sound ok to me.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:36 AM

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s
It would be interesting to see the proof of that. Supposedly there were 300 clubs in the sixties.
The 60's were a unique time, the original teens of the late 50's were young adults, tertiary education expanded, disposable income soared. Any number of reasons can be postulated for the attraction of folk in the 60's. Dylan, Baez, The dubliners regularly hit the charts and thus got airtime, aided by the likes of radio luxemburg, Radio caroline etc.
Conscription finished and teens had cash, and could act as individuals as the national service mincing machine could not bust them all to the lowest common denominator. All these factors aided folk music.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_folk_revival

How popular folk is rather comes back to the ongoing debate. How do you define FOLK? Does electrification take the likes of the Strawbs, Run Rig, Fairport etc out of the equation? Is it a celebration of a fossil artform? If not, what are the modern equivalents? and of far more importance where and how do you categorize them?
Did folk actually decline or morph into other genres that fill the same void?
Could" I hate Mondays" be a modern folksong. It ticks many of the boxes!

The description below, if adhered to, defines folk as a fossil art form and takes no heed of modern technology. Either the music is an anachronism or the description.
a song originating among the people of a country or area, passed by oral tradition from one singer or generation to the next, often existing in several versions, and marked generally by simple, modal melody and stanzaic, narrative verse


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM

The Wiki page has no date that I can see.
A look on this site alone gives a good idea of the number of folk type
clubs available.
What mixture of material you might hear will no doubt vary from club to club as in my experience of 50years it always has.

www.englishfolkinfo.org.uk

See regional resources


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM

I can't get that exercised over whether there are fewer folk clubs today than 50 years ago when I wasn't alive. There are enough ot them now to occupy my time.

If you don't live near a folk club, you probably don't live too near many live music venues either: I imagine the same could be said for jazz or rock or classical venues, or Korean restaurants. Them's the breaks.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:24 AM

A couple of events occurring.
http://www.folklondon.co.uk/venues.html

In the beginning

https://www.johnmartyn.info/node/1531


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:57 AM

Jim, when you return I shall look forward to it. Many thanks, and have a great trip.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:33 AM

matt milton - enjoy being still youngish and living in a big city as long as you can..

I moved out of London 20 years ago to be closer to my recently widowed mum.
I was also only 40 and fed up being too skint to enjoy much of what appealed to me in the city nightlife...
..and it was getting near impossible to dodge ticket inspectors and railway police
on the tube line from the farest reaches of East London where we could just about afford to live.

I'm now 'retired' to a depressed west country town,
isolated with no easy affordable public transport to the regional cities.
City gigs would realistically need overnight hotel costs.

So the last time we could afford to make the effort was Bellowhead,
and as good as the band were,
the audience were a bunch of loudly over talkative smug middle class dicks
who spoilt the occasion for me.

Our town does have a small cramped poncey trendy student cafe that occasionally books lesser known touring acoustic acts,
who probably need the work and are swallowing their pride to gig in our town.

It's an expensive cliquey place for a miserable aging malcontent like me to enjoy spending an evening.
I suppose it's alright if you like cakes instead of rough cider...???

There used to be a proper good old fashioned pub with folk/blues sessions that went on into late night lock ins,
but it closed years ago.

Buying power of the wife's public sector salary has increasingly shrunk after 10 years of austerity,
while pints of cider have become a rare luxury...

That's when/why I gave up on the cultural desert I'm stuck living in,
and instead enthusiastically took up the worldwide joys of late night internet music
on the comfort of my own sofa..

"The current state of folk music in UK" is only something I'm really aware of to any extent,
by reading mudcat threads...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 10:19 AM

If I may, I would like to clear up a total fallacy stated above, re Bob Dylan and Theo Bikel...Bob Dylan never refused to go to Mississippi. Theo Bikel never spoke directly to Bob Dylan. Bikel spoke to Dylans manager, Al Grossman who told Bikel that Dylan would probably not be able to afford the trip as he was playing only in small clubs at that time and his album had only just been released..none of his early records sold very well, so he was not rolling in dough. Bikel suggested that he (Bikel) would pay for Dylans ticket to Mississippi.
Bikel gave the ticket money to Grossman who then passed it on to Dylan. Dylan did not know the source of the money and assumed it was from Grossman. They did not go by train, they flew..Bikel sat next to Dylan en route, they chatted and according to Bikel, he seemed to think Dylan was happy to go.
So the story related by Jim is a total misrepresentation of what actually happened and Jim has repeated this fallacy many times.
The truth of this story is confirmed by several interviews with Bikel...interview with both Joan Baez and Albert Grossman.
Another wee correction..Bob Dylan did not steal Scarborough fair from Martin Carthy.
It is time to put these myths to rest.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 10:27 AM

It's all very well saying that clubs should organise workshops, and I don't disagree with the sentiment. However in my experience not many clubs have people with the knowledge and experience to run these, or the time available. Being able to play or sing does not necessarily mean the ability to teach.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 10:49 AM

For 10 years, the summer highlight for us was the Burnham on Sea Free Folk Fest...
It was a reasonably balanced program of 'Trad folk', 'Contemporary folk',
'World Folk', and 'Are you really sure it's folk ?' acts..

.. and the local Morris dancers...

A small scale unpretentious or snobby weekend festival in the town pubs and park..
Handy because we could stay at a relative's house..

A great under the radar weekend that more cosmopolitan folkies didn't seem to give a toss about,
The audience were mostly ordinary towns folk out for free entertainment and booze..

Sadly RIP due to tory austerity funding cuts, and the organizers getting older and tired...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM

Should we perform only in our own tradition to preserve it?

Which "we" do you have in mind? There are a lot of different people using it, with their own reasons for folk music to serve many different purposes.


If so, at what point in time to we lay down what the tradition is? Do we perform only English traditions as they were in the 18th and 19th centuries?

That we can be fairly definite about. Both tunes and songs from that period arose in a well-connected international culture. Any time you play a tune with I-IV-V-I chords you're using an Italian idea from the 16th century, and it was obvious by Child's time that most of the best-known ballad stories had cognates across Europe. The material English folkies perform today was never part of a purely English tradition, and you can say something analogous about every other part of the British Isles. Scottish Highland bagpipes were introduced from England in the late 1400s, were always made outside the Highlands using African woods, and for the last 150 years have usually been accompanied by drumming that comes partly from the continental European and Ottoman military traditions and partly from colonial Africa.

The music most people heard most often in the 18th and 19th centuries in the UK was hymns and psalms. Which mostly originated as a collaborative effort by Calvinists from all over Western Europe and never developed any regionalized idioms - the only ones that look that way (like the psalms of the Western Isles) are relics of once-widespread repertoires. The instrumental music that formed the core of most practical music making at the same time was in the army, and you played much the same stuff in the same way in military bands in Peterborough or Petersburg.

Cherry-picking the historical record to create a "national" idiom is inventing a past that never was. It may sell downloads and put bums on seats, though - which gets back to the your first sentence - who is this "we"?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM

"ordinary towns folk out for free entertainment and booze.."

ok.. I'll be a grammar pedant..

Unfortunately the booze wasn't free.. we can dream though...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 10:56 AM

HiLo,

It isn't uncommon with some folks to not let the truth get in the way of a good story. Or sometimes their own beliefs.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 11:38 AM

Thanks, Jack. Very informative and pretty much what I thought - the English tradition is somewhat a fallacy anyway!

The "we" was just a description of anyone interested. No one specific in mind. The point I was making though was to anyone who thinks there is something pure and special about an English tradition. It is not English! Hence the mention of traditional English fish and chips springing from the Jewish culture as well :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 11:51 AM

The musics not pure, my mischling blood's not pure.. thank f@@kfor that...

Trying to maintain unhealthy incestuous purity of a lineage didn't do the pharaohs much good...

Nationalists please note - purity might sound ideal in theory,
but not in practice...

You'll have to look for other excuses for continuing to inbreed within a limited gene pool...

musically and literally...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 12:07 PM

200!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 12:38 PM

'inbreeding within a limited gene pool'- sounds like the Tory party....


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM

I think your testimony about the state of the folkscene PFR seens about the most honest and decent I've read in a long time. I'm sure there are a lot of people in your situation. Players as well as audience of our generation.

Also I want you to know that I find it moving. Moving because in the little towns that I grew up in (Grantham and Exmouth) - there were in the 1960's, there were three folk clubs in each. well attended - and the standard of the floorsingers frightened any dummies like me who weren't really good enough. To be good enough to do a floorspot was my teenage ambition.

Something has been lost, but sadly something much too subtle for the people here to sort out. there was all kinds of music, and all kinds of approaches to folk music, which as i remember were accorded respect.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 12:55 PM

Jim - on your 16 Oct 19 - 06:40 PM you seem to be forgetting the oral tradition of songs being passed on through listening to others.

As I built my repertoire, if the tune was already on Mudcat or elsewhere on the web, I used it (occasionally transposing for my tenor recorder intros) but, if not, I learnt solely from the singing of others (at clubs OR radio, CD, etc.), them mimicked my voice with that recorder or keyboards and wrote it down using a simple ABC notation system - not trusting my memory.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM

"there were in the 1960's, there were three folk clubs in each" (Big Al)...and assimilation, rather than internal ethnic diversity, was being promoted by government and media, and the majority of mass economic/CAPITALIST immigration was yet to occur.

My poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Remember Them?"


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

this is true - think about songs like Blackand White , and Melting Pot that were in the charts and in the case of Black and White in the folk clubs.

We certainly thought and were taught differently in those days. What the NF and the other right wing gangs seemed to object to - was the friendliness between races....

I'm not sure how this impacts on the folk scene though WAV. i don't really think any foreigner coming into a folk club and doing a spot would be treated with anything other than courtesy. By and large - they don't come though, do they.

It was our project to make a go of, and we screwed it up bigtime.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

...there are a lot of young English people enjoying steelpan music who could (without the relentless promotion of internal ethnic diversity here) just as well be enjoying their own good English folk music - and leaving steelpan performance to folks from Trinidad and Tobago.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM

Walky - yeah.. it's a brilliant idea to proscribe the music and art races/nationalities are not permitted
to enjoy and participate in...

Then we can all merrily stick to the oficial list of sanctioned national cultural activities...

I don't know why no-one has ever thought of trying that before..

can't wait...!!!

Bring on the right thinking kind of government asap...

Do we get uniforms as well...??? I look good in black or dark blue...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM

...just quietly, PFR, I only have 5 sets of blackish trousers with white buttoned shirts, plus 2 fleeces and 2 suit jackets - on which I always do up the bottom button!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:33 PM

I've already got black steel toe capped boots.. no harm in being prepared...

I can always say I thought they were just nice for clog dancing...[nod..wink..]

Now to get some hefty sticks I can say are for morris dancing...

WE'll show those multiculturalists the cost of not respecting their own folk culture alright...

As a passing thought I don't look too good in a brown shirt, but if needs must...

Obviously, I'd prefer to wear a good traditional British Black shirt..

.. oh.. wait a minute... I'm sure this has been done before..?????


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM

There's what we want and the tactics we are prepared to use, PFR - I prefer education and the non-violent non-cooperation of Gandhi, who, upon repatriation from South Africa to South Asia, did NOT say Europeans and their culture should stay in the name of internal ethnic diversity.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

Wait a sec.. you got me so swept up and carried away with nationalist ferver
I momentarily forgot I'm an internationalist multiculturalist...

Phew.. that's some powerful stuff you're peddling...!!!???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:10 PM

Just finished a band practice. Present: one Egyptian, one Turk. four Greeks, two Iranians, one Scot and me (English/Kiwi/Scottish, take your pick). Practiced four pieces, Iranian and Turkish/Greek (rembetiko) things we knew well, an easy Greek one we've nearly got down and a very complicated Arabic song it'll take a bit longer to get right. We'll try a Kurdish piece next week. All sorts of instruments, I mainly play Turkish ones. We play out quite regularly, if anybody near Edinburgh needs a typical Scottish band like us, just ask.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:19 PM

Culture has always spread throughout the world, ideas and songs, instruments, poems, stories, from village to town to city to country, along trade routes. Stopping it now, in the name of keeping something "English" just seems deadly dull and completely ignorant of history. As if every culture just arrived where it is today fully formed! I call Hogwash.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:37 PM

So WAV, this is Mohsen Amini he is half Iranian and half English. He started learning the concertina when his sister started Irish dancing. He is a former Scottish Young Musician of The Year and a concertina virtuoso. Are you going to tell him he should really be playing Morris tunes on a qanun?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdcck3G8PXU


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

Firstly, CS. I have posted before that genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest (in terms of culture and geography) safe nation and that, of course, may be England in some cases - e.g., persecuted Christians from Iran.

I don't know if that is Mohsen Amini's background but, either way, if he is "half Iranian and half English" he should, in my opinion, stay in England and practise English culture - such as accompanying Morris dancers with his concertina, or more challenging classical music with it (as I believe Alistair Anderson has got into a bit).

When I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne, there was an elegant old poet and poetry organiser who, I think, was a Christian from Iran.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:35 AM

Singers with guitar accompaniment or other instrument ~ arrangements of traditional songs or /and contemporary or self composed songs

Unaccompanied singers singing mainly traditional style ballads and chorus songs ~ including industrial songs and shanties

Concert clubs meeting weekly/fortnightly monthly or regularly

Folk club with or without membership regular frequency of meeting

Audience or non singers or indeed singers supporting as audience

All support in terms of doing what is usual and more ~ a cheerful crowd out to enjoy themselves and the guest

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:29 AM

Mohsen Amini is Scottish, not English!!!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Kenny
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:40 AM

Mohsen lives in Glasgow, I believe his parents were from Iran and Ireland. Whether he is Scottish, Iranian, Irish or any combination of all 3 is up to him, and nobody else. His music is certainly based on the Irish tradition.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:49 AM

Well I am off to Musicport where people from many countries play music from their own and other cultures to great effect. Particularly looking forward to seeing this fabulous young band who received a standing ovation bother times they performed previously

http://varldensband.com/


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:06 AM

Yes GUESTKenny - exactly right! Thank you.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM

An interesting stroll through history to the state of music in English Schools. It also resparks some old controversies:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=zptMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT43&lpg=PT43&dq=should+a+folk+singer+onlysing+their+own+tradition&source=bl&ot

scroll right to the end


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:28 AM

I believe the Bosnian Sevdah singer Amira is going to be at Musicport. Lewis the multi-instrumentalist I play with every week in Leith will be in her backing band. We occasionally do sevdah stuff in that session, I'll have a listen to the Amira CD I have before next week and see what I can figure out. (I've got Mohammed Zero's sevdah book).


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

Yes its okay with the traddies if you toe the party line.

Because Sunjay's influences were mainly American based when he was runner up in the BBC Young Folk Musician of the year at the age of 18 - several people on mudcat felt entitled to be very sniffy.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 09:47 AM

Amira: Rosa


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM

I'm looking forward to seeing Amira, Jack. I love music from that part of the world. Tonight's highlight for us will be the Warsaw Village Band - one of my favourite bands


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM

"So the story related by Jim is a total misrepresentation of what actually happened and Jim has repeated this fallacy many times. "
A damn sight more accurate than most of the stories told my MacColl
I repeat the story as I read it in The Irish Times
I don't know whether Bikel and Zimmerman (real name!!) ever met, but in essence - he had to be persuaded to go to take part in the events he was building his career singing about
Would that stories such as this all be even handed and fair I really wouldn't bother - let's face it, they took place in the dim and distance past
At least Zimmermann is still around to put his side


"I can't get that exercised over whether there are fewer folk clubs today than 50 years ago when I wasn't alive. There are enough ot them now to occupy my time"
Too "Ding-ding - I'm on the bus" for me I'm afraid Matt
As things stand with the present numbers, I seean increase in clubs as the only way to guarantee a continuation of folk songs as a participatory activity rather than passive entertainment
Survial depends on new singers who don't necessarily see themselves as superstars - and new enthusiasts willing to organise and research   
Some of our best researchers came through the clubs, Vic Gammon, Roy Palmer and Bob Thomson spring to mind
When that stops the songs willl be confibed to the locked cupboards
Jim
(sory if this is full of typos, as usual - I ***** hate unfamiliar compuers and this hotel doesn't seem to go in for a aplellcheck)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:56 PM

Jim - have a little think about this..

Truly listening to music and engaging emotionally/intellectually with it,
is far from being a mere passive recipient...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:11 PM

I doubt The Irish Times
would have printed this without having looked into the veracity of it..good journalists do not that.
Dylan did not have to be persuaded to go, He flew on a plane seated next to Bikel..Bikel confirms this in an interview readily available on youtube.
Dylan did not steal Scarborough Fair from Martin Carthy..Martin Carthy refutes that story. There are times when you have a rather outstanding credibility problem, yet you continue to tell this demonstrably untrue story.
I know you do not like Dylan, but that should not be a reason to malign him....should it ?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:42 PM

Dylan did not steal Scarborough Fair from Martin Carthy.

Indeed not, and I've never heard anyone claim that he did. It was Paul Simon who recorded an arrangement of the song uncannily similar to Martin's. Dylan did borrow elements for 'Girl From the North Country' from SF, but he was friends with Carthy and there was no suggestion of 'stealing'.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:47 PM

Anyway.. no British folkies ever had a Magic Roundabout character named after them...?????


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 07:04 PM

It was claimed on the Argo Guthrie thread that Dylan stole Scarborough Fair from Martin Carthy? I was simply stating that all evidence is to the contrary.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:29 PM

But Mr Zimmerman stole Canadee-I-O from Nic...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM

Was it in the Irish Times ?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 10:27 PM

Martin Carthy had a misunderstanding with Paul Simon about "Scarborough Fair," but later cleared up the disagreement.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4722968/Friends-again-with-Paul-Simon.html

Davy Graham composed the guitar piece "Anji," or "Angie,", which was later recorded by Paul Simon and others. Don't know if there was a disagreement on that one.

As for Dylan, I don't know of any UK musicians who accused him of expropriation, but Jean Ritchie sued Dylan for his copyrighting of "Nottamun Town." Ritchie claimed it was a traditional song that had been in her family for generations - and she won.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:07 PM

I don,t think she actually won, Joe. There was a “ buyout” and the case did not go to court. it may have seemed to her lawyers that they would have a difficult time establishing Richie,s “ ownership “. Of a traditional song. For their part, Dylan’s laweywers must have conceded that Dylan’s arrangement was very much like richie,s .
that is my take on it anyway .


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:26 PM

Paul Simon and his brother,Ed, performed Anji live on television and stated that the song was written by Davy Graham. the same song has been recorded by many people including Bert Jansch and John Renbourn.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:48 PM

canadee io did not belong to Nic Jones ,so could not have stole from him   ,nor did Dylan steal Jones,s arrangement, Dylan’s guitar onCanadee io is VERY different from that of Nic Jones. so there are really no grounds for the accusation of theft.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM

We are lucky down in the far south west away from the metropolis, within 10 miles radius of my home, Helston Cornwall, there are pub sessions virtually every night, some better than others I must admit. Because of the lack of public transport down here they do not attract the same players.
What I have noticed is that they all attract a good audience and the occasional contribution from them, some songs that just don’t get heard outside of the Dutchy.
My local is renowned as a singing pub, most weekend nights someone will strike up with a few songs, mostly trad, I wonder if that is because of the choir tradition down here. It’s not just old folks as well, there are a bunch of youngsters from Porthleven who have been to the sessions and have learnt the songs, great voices, now taking them out to new audiences in their own age group.
It’s not all doom and gloom


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:20 AM

"I doubt The Irish Times "
None so convenient as those you wish to doubt, as they should have said
Lat'e be clear about this
We weer involved in the music with out aspiring to make a careere out of it
Robert Zimmermann (real name) was involved as a step on te road to fame
So we should shed tears fpr someone stugglibng to hget to the top on songs of the tarvails of black people, who is more concerned about getting to the top using those songs
I was just out of my apprenticeship at the time and was struggling to pay my way at home, yet me and many more also had to find the fares to Aldermaston to try stop the nuclear madness, and South Wales and Faslane to stop Britain being used as a US Nuclear base
And pay what we ddi to keep up with our involvement in the musiC
Sorry - not many tears for Booby ran down my cheeks, especially as I am now being asked to be happy that the clubs should now stand aside for the scene to become something for young people who want to make careers and win prizes

"Truly listening to music and engaging emotionally/intellectually with it,
is far from being a mere passive recipient... "
Are you serious ?
That is exactly what it is
We set up the folk scene to give people the opportunbity to play an active part in our art
We could have satyed and got Emotionally amd intellectually involved in Max Bygraves
Must go - folk song proper calls
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 05:17 AM

Tbh, I generally listen to music I like (and occasionally some stuff I don't like). I don't restrict myself to any one style although I appreciate there are those who prefer to stick to a well-defined genre. That's fine by me. Seek and ye shall find.

Btw, nobody apparently 'steals' anything these days, they call it 'sampling' now :)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 09:49 AM

""Truly listening to music and engaging emotionally/intellectually with it,
is far from being a mere passive recipient... "
Are you serious ?
That is exactly what it is
"

Jim - it's called "music appreciation"..
it's an active skill,
which can be improved with training and experience..

"We set up the folk scene to give people the opportunbity to play an active part in our art"

That's nice of you.. Thanks..

But down here in Scrumpyshire where some bloke named Cecil many years ago collected songs
in villages where my dad's ancestors very likely lived, worked, drank cider, and entertained themselves with song..
Well.. seriously.. those long ago simple ordinay working folks may have beat you to it by a century or so...
..and with real social and cultural authenticity rarely ever to be found in later 20th century urban folk clubs...

"We could have satyed and got Emotionally amd intellectually involved in Max Bygraves"

You could have.. and nowt so wrong with that.. each to their own and all that...

But even in the 1950's there was a wealth of diverse music available on the radio, TV, and 78s
to be actively appreciated and enjoyed...
Not just "Pink Tooth Brush"..
as much sheer joy as that record was for a lot of folks...

My mum and dad had a great time in that era,
they were massive music fans...
There was no sitting passively still to the big swing bands and rock n roll...

Who know what they may have been listening to while I was being conceived...
Perhaps blame Stan Kenton or Frankie Vaughan...???


To put it rather unsubtly, it's complete bollocks to dismiss other folks personal relationship with music
if they are not opening their gobs and singing it themselves...

You are one of my favourite mudcatters, I have sincere respect for you,
and would be happy to know you in real life as a mate and mentor..

But sometimes you do work yourself up into talking such over-opinionated tripe...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM

"To put it rather unsubtly, it's complete bollocks to dismiss other folks personal relationship with music
if they are not opening their gobs and singing it themselves..."

As a dancer who loves folk songs but has no intention of spending time learning them for performance, nor of using a crib sheet, I can relate to that.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM

Mohsen Amini is Scottish, not English!!! (Guest RA)...of course he is, sorry - hadn't seen the video!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM

'We set up the folk scene to give people the opportunbity to play an active part in our art
We could have satyed and got Emotionally amd intellectually involved in Max Bygraves'

More people of that generation love Nax Bygraves - his songs,films, even his singalong amax albums than evercould get involved the supposed and largely imaginary merits of Sheath and Knife.

Must be a bugger pretending to like folk music when you don't like folk very much. Certainly you show no respect for the music they have taken to their hearts.

I have no idea how you intend (if you ever did) to promote folk song. But what precisely is wrong with having the ambition to make a living from folk music? they may end up as Max Bygraves or Cliff Richard - whose career does have a straightforward trajectory? Wanting to be a folksinger is better than wanting to be serial killer, or a tory Prime Minister. What pleasure do you derive from pissing on peoples' dreams? In some cases dreams is all some kids have.

My nightmare is they end up singing Sheeath and Knife and the Ballad of tam Linn to four manic depressives and me at Sidmouh Folk Festival.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 05:48 PM

Following on from my earlier comments about how good cross cultural music can be the Vaarldens Band turned in another astonishing set tonight at Musicport
Jack your friend Lewis provided beautiful accomplishment to Amira - especially as they only met last night. A fine musician!
Jim Moray turned in a superb set of traditional songs too. Folk music from many lands in excellent health here :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 07:17 PM

JoeG - I must get to Musicport - sounds great!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 07:37 PM

It is our unmissable festival!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM

It has been affected by the lack of available venues due to changes in the nature of pub ownership, I notice some performers are now presenting themed nights in village halls.
My impression is that vocally the scene is more varied than it is in ireland where tradtional music is mainly unaccompanied ,instrumental traditional music[excluding vocals]seems to be of a technically higher performance standard in ireland, that does not necessarily make it more interesting music, while technique is necessary it is not the" be all and end all" of performance


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:57 AM

"Jim - it's called "music appreciation".."
It should be callaed musical participation if it i to have a future
You can appreciate any knind of music without being actively involved in it
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Simply listening is being involved.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM

Ham and eggs: The chicken was involved, the pig was committed.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

Researchers have found a part of our brain dedicated solely to music. Because of this, all sorts of reactions occur in our brains in response to hearing it. ... Hearing music alters the neurochemicals in our brains and triggers the release of dopamine and endorphins.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM

Jim - so singing along and playing instruments whilst listening to recordings,
don't count as participation and learning...???

So recording a performance at home and posting it on youtube
for potentially thousands of other music entusiasts to sing and play along to,
don't count as participation learning...???

Nah.. that's all passive reception and consumption.. innit...!!!???

is it, bollocks...

It's 2019, not 1959, folk clubs could die off overnight and eventuially not be missed,
but folk music will continue to thrive as long as younger generations of folks all around the world
share and communicate, and express themselves freeely on the internet...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

..and we are not too far away from faster and more reliable internet connections
that will enable folks from all around the world
to enjoy sessions playing together in real time
from their own homes.
Where-ever they may be...

Though the UK may continue lagging behind because of our shite Internet provider companies...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:44 PM

"Jim - so singing along and playing instruments whilst listening to recordings,
don't count as participation and learning...???"
That is little more than cultural masturbation - we never needed clubs for that - we might as well have stayed at home and done it for ourselves
Is that really how you view cultural participation ?
You are perfectly describing alienation
Humanity is basically gregarious - we have always tended to express ourselved and shared our abilities communally
We spent a full day yesterday swapping experiences annd ideas on folk songs with about fifty others - then we adjourned to a pub room and swapped songs till about midnight
We enjoyed the company, we value the knowledge we took away from our meeting up, and it's a long time before we'll forget some of the excellent singing we heard
We returned to our hotel and were having a last pint in the bar when one of the young women singers we had been listening to joined us - and we spent another hour talking with this fine new singer (soeone who had not long come to singing)
We're off for a meal with a similar bunch shortly
Beats staying at home and pulling youtr pud any day - or posing yourself on the net in the hope someone will like you
Both, I find more than a little sad though I do understand why some people have to do it
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:50 PM

Well said, Jim.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:52 PM

If joining in with something from home is cultural masturbation then many people talking about folk music on an internet forum must be a mass debate.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM

Anfd performing Dave
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM

Well.. I'm keeping both hands on my keyboard whilst I'm here at mudcat...

I never thought Jim could be that kinky...!!!???


Btw.. What I type in this thread is two parts serious to one part playing devil's advocate...

But the internet will become the most effective communal worldwide folk club
long after we're all gone......


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM

We come here to discuss music. When we play or participate, it's not through a computer, it's in the physical presence of living people. Bleedin' obvious, I would've thought.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:59 PM

"Jim - so singing along and playing instruments whilst listening to recordings,
don't count as participation and learning...???"

That is little more than cultural masturbation - we never needed clubs for that - we might as well have stayed at home and done it for ourselves. Is that really how you view cultural participation ?
You are perfectly describing alienation


Excellent observation Mr. Carroll. Brilliant comment, well said indeed!!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM

Jim - what's most important..

the music...???
or being within touching and smelling distance
of a bunch of the same old folkies you're stuck with week in and week out...

The internet future offers potentially more and improved possibilities to combine the best connectivity and community of both options...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:05 PM

Well pfr, Mudcat did have a spell of live Internet music, starting with Hearme and moving on to PalTalk   but I think it fizzled out. At one point, as well as taking it in turn sessions, there were a couple who would do “concerts” that way. Time zones are a bit of a problem with that sort of thing but there were for example someone from UK and another from NZ sometimes getting online at the same time.

I’m not sure what to think about online sessions. Even if the speed and absence of lag were there, I might still have doubts. Thinking now, to me, at least in a good session, there are other interactions such as the way one can get caught up in the overall atmosphere, sound and visual clues that might not translate too well over distance.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:06 PM

"I’m not sure what to think about online sessions"

(Join in together that is)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM

"The internet future offers potentially more and improved possibilities to combine the best connectivity and community of both options..."
How sad.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM

How exciting...

Folk and their music adapt, evolve, and survive...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM

Actively participating listeners have been an essential part of musical performance ever since music was invented. In some genres, the performers can expect the audience to know in depth how the music works and express their appreciation - audibly - when something special happens. This is true for Indian classical music, Arabic art and popular music and pretty much every variety of African-American music. It often makes the performance completely unrecordable, since you need to be there and be able to discriminate the music from the reactions to it - but so what? Who needs all their music pickled?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:56 PM

The Musicians Union motto used to be [ I hope still is ] "Keep Music Live". As relevant today as ever.
What do you do when your internet connection goes down ? - or did Jim supply the answer to that above already ?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:27 PM

How many different GUESTS here at the moment while Jim is temporarily signed out..

Jim - sorry if I've responded to others thinking they are you...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM

What do you do when your internet connection goes down ?

It's usually down for a short while so I suffer in silence until it comes back.

What do you do when your folk club closes down?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:20 PM

I'm assuming that any posts ostensibly by Jim that are not headed "Jim Carroll" sans the hateful "guest" addendum (and I mean it: no-one here should be posting unless registered and signed in, my long-time hobby horse, and sod democracy, and I don't care what you think) is not by Jim. I'm playing safe.
    Yeah, there are some people trying to yank our rope in this thread. If any guest posts in this thread have even the slightest hint of animosity, I've been deleting them. Anyone trying to hide behind anonymity, gets no "benefit of the doubt."
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:23 PM

"What do you do when your folk club closes down?"
What folk club ? We don't need them.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:50 PM

I tend to agree to a large extent to pfr's general gist re the importance of the internet in discovering folk music (and indeed sharing it which I frequently do via Facebook and occasionally on here) Of course the experiences of listening to, performing or sharing music live are wonderful things (I'm just coming down from an astounding weekend at Musicport!) but they are not the only means of access to folk and nor should they be as that would exclude many people who for whatever reason cannot attendsuch events


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:22 PM

The Musicians Union motto used to be [ I hope still is ] "Keep Music Live". As relevant today as ever.

When I made a scrap-plywood case for my C melody sax it ended up looking just like a coffin. So I painted on a pair of vampiric hands trying to escape from it and a slogan on the lid: KEEP MUSIC UNDEAD.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:50 AM

"the music...???
or being within touching and smelling distance
of a bunch of the same old folkies you're stuck with week in and week out..."
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but one is dependent on the other
None of us same oold folkies would be here without the music)a very specific music) And we wouldn't have that music withoutt a bunch of us same olds hadn't got tgether to share the songs and the knowledge that we had gained from them
Do you think the songs and music got here in the first place because people loged into Utube, or read a book or boaught a broadside (as some would claim it did)
The thing that makess folk song unique is that is arises afrom shared experiences and aspirations and the desire top record them and pass them on
I live in rural Ireland - I think sometimes that people tend to forget how many people remain uncomputered and technology illiterate - certainly very many my age do (my partner Pat crosses herself and hangs up garlic at the sight of a computer screen and she was a skilled administrator of a swish upoholstry firm)
It is both arrogant and communal suicide to believe that we don't need the company of one another to be creative human beings
This ia almost as depresibng as the suggestion that we don't need folk clubs
Sad, sad, sad   

I take it we have had an attack of cowardly, identity-grabbing trolls -
I have come to reagard this as one of the highest comliments to be awarded
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:41 AM

Some genuine research. Make of it what you will. (Cannot see a date but definitely post 2011)

http://livemusicexchange.org/wp-content/uploads/Investigating-the-health-of-the-UK-folk-club.pdf

British folk music has rarely been in more vigorous health than it is today(The British Council)Oct. 2018


https://music.britishcouncil.org/news-and-features/2018-10-15/british-folk-in-the-21st-century


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

The date in the header data of that British Council paper is May 2012.

It tries to cover everything but doesn't do much more than repeat what a few informants say. Okay as far as it goes, but not my idea of research.

It also perpetuates the Not Invented Here chauvinism of the British folk scene - there are other ways of doing things which have to some extent been imported from elsewhere (the American "folk camp" and "house concert", the Breton "fest noz") and which don't necessarily need to stay tied to a particular style of music. A lot of British-invented formulas have been failures in the long term, mainly through cohort-based generational exclusiveness. It's well worth looking around to see where things work better.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM

I'm thinking it possible that as Jim is, as he has told us, away from home, he is posting as a guest because he can't or hasn't logged in from whatever device he is using at the moment. I'm also thinking that perhaps he was not fully sobered up before posting some recent contributions. Also that detailed accounts of What Jim did on his holiday in the foreign country where he lives are not the most useful way of forwarding a discussion of the state of folk music in the UK.

For me, the use of metaphors like 'cultural masturbation' adds little to the discussion and do have a hint of animosity.

But when Jim asks whether 'the songs and music' got here via the internet in the first place, obviously not. However, they did mostly get here via the technologies of the past time, as Jim himself has frequently explained: manuscript and printing, radio, television, tape recordings etc.

It seems to me that it would be romanticising, possibly with an underlying ideological bent, to assert that the songs got here because of what people who are now old (including Jim) did in their youth. Also it seems that there is potential conflict between taking this view and claiming that folk music is based in some sort of continuous historical 'oral tradition'.

The idea that human sensory experience of the world is ever a purely 'passive' thing seems to me to be at odds with common sense and a great deal of research.

ha ha pfr some humour much needed


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:52 AM

Also ironic that Jim is insisting on the need to 'actively participate' in folk music when a) as far as I am aware he is not and has never been a musician, and b) when some of the comments he has made on these threads about technical aspects of singing with which he has engaged as a listener have been technically incorrect (and some of the historical glosses provided on songs). So arguably, more and better informed passive listening would have resulted in learning in this particular case.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:58 AM

To use Jim's metaphor (I feel he cannot really object) some people are better wankers than others. And what's all this puritanical/Papistical (take your choice, trying to avoid denomination bias here...) objection to self-pleasuring? Lloyd famously liked dirty songs; are we arguing that the frisson of enjoying this has to be a group activity as opposed to a private one? Hmm. Kinky or what????

:)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:01 AM

To interpret my own metaphor (or my use of Jim's) some people are better interpreters and commentators on the music that they listen to in an allegedly passive manner than others. And just listening to more music may not be the way to improve in this area.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM

Participation is important (it certainly is for me) but Jim's insistence on participation would seem to exclude those who go to folk clubs simply to listen to and enjoy the music. In my experience these usually make up the majority of folk club audiences (with the possible exception of singarounds and expressly singers' clubs), significantly outnumbering the floor singers in most cases.

It also occurs to me that most other genres have a far lower ratio of active performers to listeners, yet most of these seem to be in a far healthier state than folk, in terms of size of audience and public perception as well as financial sustainability.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:39 AM

Yes Howard, but it still seems self-contradictory to put it at as gently as I can to insist on people participating in the production of music when one has reached a ripe old age and not achieved that oneself, especially as low standards are another reason you give for people not attending.

I am afraid Jim's positions have the (for me) uniquely irritating quality of being passionately held to the point where language verging on the abusive is hurled at opposing views and deeply self contradictory. One might sympathise or even agree at times, but the approach at persuasion (if that is indeed what it is, as opposed to wilful cruising for a bruising ), for me at least goes beyond failure.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM

The British Council piece praises Sam Lee, whose name provoked a lot of hostile commentary on this site when he appeared on a BBC folk prom.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:23 AM

I know of people who have been subsidised by the British Council   to inflict folk on parts of the Middle East and South America. A good gig if you can get it!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,no Jim
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM

"What do you do when your folk club closes down?"
What folk club ? We don't need them.
My apologies for the above. I should have said that I - personally - don't need folk clubs. My opinion, my choice, and nobody is going to tell me I'm wrong.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:58 AM

Jim may or may not be aware that the sex toy industry has a thriving new product line of USB and WI FI devices
that transmit and simulate the stimulating touch of a distant 'partner' from any point on the planet connected by the internet...

There is potential for such equipment to be modified to keep far-flug folkies in touch with each other...???

For example, such a device could be programmed to blow smoke in your face, spill beer on you, and emit noxious smells,
all to your preferred settings in the comfort of your own home...

Advanced, more adventurous, users could select a Folk Festival level option...

It's a brave new world...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:10 AM

pfr you seem worryingly familiar with the products of the sex toy industry - it's not that quiet down your neck of the woods is it? ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:23 AM

You'd be surprised [ or not ] of what you can find out on the internet
in the early hours of the morning whilst listening to the sound track music
of 1970s Turkish equivalents of "Carry On.." and "Confessions of.." soft core sex comedies...

Added bonus, 1970s Turkish actreses are very watchable......


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM

Er best we get back on topic...... :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:55 AM

May I perhaps suggest that UK has basically two sides to it:

A ~ The Professional side where guests are invited by clubs and promoters to perform in front of a paying audience to entertain

B ~ The participatory side where singers and players get together on a regular basis to enjoy the performance of song and music

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:35 PM

Seems perfectly reasonable to me Ray. Both are valued and have equal merit. I prefer the former but also enjoy the latter. Not being a singer or sufficiently proficient at playing an instrument I would rather those who are do the performing - though I will join in on the choruses or refrains.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

The clubs used to have a foot in both Ray's camps, usually combining a "professional" guest with unpaid floor singers. I put "professional" in inverted commas because these were not necessarily making a living from it, and could be fairly local singers offered the opportunity of an extended spot. The requirement to entertain the audience tended to encourage at least minimum standards of performance.

These days the clubs seem to have polarised and more seem to fall into one or the other camp.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM

Perhaps a look at Hobgoblin's accounts might give an indication
of the health of the UK folk scene...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM

Perhaps a look at Hobgoblin's accounts might give an indication
of the health of the UK folk scene...???"
Why? how would hobgoblins accounts or any other music dealers accounts do that,for instance many musicians have had the same instruments for years, and also the sales of instruments does not reflect the amount of instruments being played or the health of the uk folk scene,
after all some of those imstruments that have been sold in the last year might well be going abroad and not for the use in the uk folk revival at all., and sales within the last year do not reflect accurately the total amount of instruments being played in the UK folk revival.
I find it necessary to have places to play and sing folk music where people go to listen to words of songs, much as they might go and listen to classical music or opera , that is why i think it is good to have folk clubs, Jim Carroll has in the past stated that when he goes to folk clubs he expects to hear traditional music but not popsongs and presumably he now no longer wants to go to folk clubs because he believes that he cannot hear the music he wants to hear in them .However he has not given us an indication as to how many he has visited in the uk in the last year.
I would state in fairness to Jim that compared to 40 years ago there is now less traditional music played in uk folk clubs and a small to medium increase in buddy holly and pop, that is my experience, other people may have different experiences. if people want elvis or buddy holly why dont they clear off and watch am n ELVIS or buddy holly tribute band


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:06 PM

Dick - Why..

because it's bloody obvious supportive evidence... that's why...!!!

no matter how much you are grumpily making a meal of refusing to acknowledge this...

For instance, how many beginners folk instruments sold per annum might be of particular interest...


"if people want elvis or buddy holly why dont they clear off and watch am n ELVIS or buddy holly tribute band"

As I said a few posts ago..
It's 2019, not 1959...

Though a good rock n roll band does sound like a better night out than a bunch of miserable old folkies...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:16 PM

Keep it friendly please folks - we can disagree or argue but try to keep it respectful. I know I haven't on occasion in the past which I regret - and it doesn't help the debate :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:28 PM

I'm too friendly..

My first response was to post the lyrics to the Frankie Avalon song "Why"..

"I'll never let you go
Why? Because I love you
I'll always love you so
Why? Because you love me
No broken hearts for us
'Cause we love each other
And with our faith and trust
There could be no other
Why? 'Cause I love you
Why? 'Cause you love me
I think you're awfully sweet
Why? Because I love you
You say I'm your special treat
Why? Because you love me
We found the perfect love
Yes, a love that's yours and mine
I love you and you love me
All the time
Yes, I love you
(I'll always love you so)
(Why? Because you love me)
Yes, you love me
We found the perfect love
Yes, a love that's yours and mine
I love you and you love me
I love you and you love me
We'll love each other, dear
Forever
"

But then I thought, nah.. as much as we all love him.. Dick aint in a mood for classic rock n pop...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM

first of all hobgoblin are a private company ,of course they will not open their accounts to you,
secondly as i said, new sales of folk instruments are not supportive evidence of the health of the uk folk scene or the amount of people playing instruments because they do not record the amount of existing instruments being played, therfore that would not be overall evidence. , i replied to you politely. please keep it civil ,because, my post destroys your argument it does not make it a grumpy post.
the amount of beginners playing instruments would have to exclude people playing violins or other instruments for classical music,or pop jazz or brass band music , even if hobgoblin and other dealers were willing so your idea it would involve so much paperwork to just record instruments for folk use only , it becomes a non starter, your idea is flawed in more ways than one[ and that is a polite statement]


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM

What I suspect Hobgoblin's sales figures would show: less general purpose guitars and more specialized ones, less specialized and expensive melody instruments (partly because people buy them from specialist dealers now), and a LOT more ukuleles.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:29 AM

PUNK FOLK ROCKER,
But then I thought, nah.. as much as we all love him.. Dick aint in a mood for classic rock n pop..." your post is taking the discussion in a personal direction, pack it up, and debate the point about hobgoblin letting people know their sales[ even though it will never happen]


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM

pfr.

Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.

Jean-Jacques Rousseau


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:39 AM

I look at folk music this way - what we now consider 'folk song' was the pop song of its' day just as songs from Buddy Holly, Elvis, Joy Division etc. will, in time, become 'folk songs'. Of course, 'it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it....' plays a role.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM

I agree, Lynn. Especially the last bit. Of course there are those who will argue that it is what you do and only a specific list of songs (of which there are many) can be classed as folk songs. Meaning of course that there can never be any new folk songs. They also seem to argue that some people can never perform folk songs and if, for instance, Roger Daltry or Kylie Minogue or Rod Stewart turned up at a folk club and sang Matty Groves unaccompanied it would not be folk either. I suspect some people are just contrary ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

Most of those posting from the UK suggest folk is quite healthy. Those who do not live in the UK say UK folk is in a dismal state. Who to believe?
This thread has the same arguments played out by the same people as one earlier in the year:

uk folk clubs high standard. It would be best just to agree to disagree.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:36 AM

" if people want elvis or buddy holly why dont they clear off and watch am n ELVIS or buddy holly tribute band"

So where does Molly Windley by the singing postman fit in a folk club Dick


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM

what we now consider 'folk song' was the pop song of its' day

No it wasn't. Look at some Victorian or Georgian popular music publications. The only (small) part of them to have survived in folk tradition are those that started off as folksongs anyway.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

"So where does Molly Windley by the singing postman fit in a folk club Dick"

This makes me think of a regular at a singers' club I went to in the 1970s. He was probably in his 60s or 70s - maybe average age for folk clubs now, but then it was considerably older than most of the rest of the audience. He sang unaccompanied and had only had a few songs, and this was one of them. It was always well received, and why not? No one pretended it was a genuine folk song, and anyway in the course of an evening you expect to hear a broad range of music which was all 'folk' in the wider meaning, including plenty of traditional song.

It was a great club where I made a lot of friends and learned a lot about singing and performing, and most importantly had a lot of fun.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:22 AM

all 'folk' in the wider meaning

Isn't that the big bone of contention though, Howard? I agree with you but there are those who would say that there is no wider meaning. It is the inclusion of a broad range of music that has destroyed the 1950s folk club.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM

That sounds like Ernie the singing bus conductor Howard. I remember him a few years earlier at Brentwood before he retired. He would sing Hev You Gotta Loit Boy or the theme song from the Beverley Hillbillies. I think he had a third song but I can't remember what it was.

The decline of that club was down to the pub going downhill after the druggies were thrown out of the High Street pubs and moved there rather than with his floor spots.

My experience is that the use of contemporary popular music in clubs followed on from the general decline in the 70s rather than being a cause of it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM

Sorry my last post did not make it clear that I disagree with those who believe that broadening the range is a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM

The hoary handed sons of the soil are too busy driving tractors and those on the shop floor terrorised by time and motion experts so where does modern folk music originate? Is it now a fossil genre or has the medium and it's proponents changed?
It either has to be one or the other.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:40 AM

The notion that the pop songs of today will become the folk songs of the future is spurious. It suggests that folk songs and old songs are interchangeable - they are not. Pop songs differ from folk songs in many ways, not least in the range of themes they cover. Pop songs are predominantly about love and romance and almost always in the first person. Love and relationships in folk songs can be first of third person and often include developed plots. But folk songs also cover the themes of travel, food and drink, immigration, law and order and crime, separation, war, politics, class struggle, work and unemployment etc, etc. In pop songs, where these themes are touched upon they are few and far between and seldom with any depth or enlightenment. There are seldom any good stories in pop songs that will stand the test of time.

By the way, I like pop music and was a massive Beatles fan. The Fab Four were not folkies though!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM

Dick - so you are still carrying your ages old petty grudge over into any thread you find me in...

Get over yourself and stop playing the victim.. yet again...

Now, let's consider this.. which one of us is habitually most grumpy, and starting fights in threads...???

Which one of us habitually starts fights then blames the person they pick on,
whilst then playing the victim...?????

Which one of us is nearly always in good humour and friendly,
though sometimes a little too irreverent and sarcastic...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM

Howard,
       I asked Dick the question in view of his statement on Buddy and Elvis songs, because he sings Molly Windley.
I, like you see little harm in the odd song or two of a non folky nature
if they are well performed and well received. A little variety is a change.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM

Dick -
Did I actually suggest Hobgoblin should surrender their accounts to the folk authorities..

No of course not...!!!

So stop making such an exagerated fuss taking it so literally..

I merely made a quick off the cuff generalised remark indicating a POSSIBLE
practical line of evidence in considering the state of UK folk...

Hobgoblin being possibly the primary shop of interest beginner folk musicians...

I can suspect 2 reasons why you are making such a meal of it,
and so can most other mudcatters used to your personality...

So please give it a rest...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 09:30 AM

What genre something belongs to and how good it is are unrelated questions. Saying the difference between folk songs and pop songs is that folk songs are better is just going to make you look an idiot if you're trying persuade people to listen to folk music.

It also make you an embarrassment to anybody else today who is trying to get people to listen to folk music of some sort. "Before you can appreciate what I'm trying to get you to listen to, you have to agree with me that Ed Sheeran is crap" - fuck that.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM

PFR,I disagree with a comment you made , i explained why i disagreed with it, you can make what you like of that ,that is your problem.
guest guest, I consider some of the work of Alan Smethurst to be good well written songs , i have no problem with them being sung in folk clubs.,I THINK THEY ARE WRITTEN IN A FOLK STYLE.
However i do not want to hear Elvis songs, when i go to a folk club, unlike Jim, I do not think that is why folk clubs are in decline, HOWEWVER it would put me off from attending a folk club, it is not what i want to hear, if i go to a classical concert i expect to hear classical music not country and western
i think there are a number of other reasons, why folk clubs are in decline
whether pop songs will become folk songs is debatable ,but should have another thread.
I HAVE EXPLAINED MY POINT OF VIEW ,I HAVE A LOT OF OTHER THINGS TO DO RIGHT NOW INCLUDING WORK ON PREPARING A FOLK FESTIVAL SO GOOD BYE FOR THE TIME BEING


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 09:54 AM

Dick - no problems...

Mudcat spats are light relief compared to the daily real life problems and fights
us ordinary folk have to contend with..

Will there eventually be trad folk songs concerning the trials and tribulations
of claiming social care benefits for aging parents under a tory governmnent...???

Or buying and fitting expensive key safes
that a child could easily break into within minutes..???
That the key safe industry must surely be aware of..
fer instance...

Agreed, there aren't that many pop songs written on such topics..

But punk bands would tackle these mundane domestic 'folk' issues...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:11 AM

Joe Solo and Reg Meuross to name but two artists I saw this weekend are writing songs on similar issues pfr :-) Reg sang his song 'Faraway People' which is the possibly the most poignant song demonstrating the tragic impacts of austerity on people. A folk song if ever there was one - in my opinion of course!
Reg Meuross - Far Away People


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:28 AM

I agree with the remark made by Jack Campin in the first part of his last post. Indeed, I had framed a reply to the post by Captain Swing, but didn't bother to post it. I wondered whether Captain Swing was in fact Jim Carroll in an usually calm and proof-read mode.

People ought to engage with music on the internet, not least because I am aware of local music-makers who make up songs giving far-right perspectives and post them on sites with a lot more far-right stuff, Breitbart-type inspired 'libertarianism', often anti-Islamaphobic to boot. That is grassroots 'folk music' if anything is, and not consumed passively or intended to be, but intended to persuade. We get links to US far-right stuff stated by the Southern Law Poverty Centre to be 'hate speech' posted on local music pages. So don't assume grass roots song making is dead, and don't assume none of it is online and don't assume it will be forgotten soon. Some of these youngsters didn't grow up as we did in the shadow of WWII and, it appears, cannot see why oldies make such as fuss about them being far right. This dreamy fantasy about 'the people' producing lefty/liberal (in the nice sense not the tea party libertarian anti social democracy sense) songs is nice, tempting, but potentially dangerous.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:28 AM

Pop songs are predominantly about love and romance and almost always in the first person. Love and relationships in folk songs can be first of third person and often include developed plots. But folk songs also cover the themes of travel, food and drink, immigration, law and order and crime, separation, war, politics, class struggle, work and unemployment etc, etc. In pop songs, where these themes are touched upon they are few and far between and seldom with any depth or enlightenment. There are seldom any good stories in pop songs that will stand the test of time.

Songs vietnam war
Fortunate Son
Creedence Clearwater Revival · 1969
For What It Is Worth
Buffalo Springfield · 1966
Eve of Destruction
Barry McGuire · 2016
We Gotta Get out of This Place
The Animals · 1965
The “Fish” Cheer / I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin’-to-Die Rag
Country Joe and the Fish · 1967
Gimme Shelter
The Rolling Stones · 1969
Waist Deep in the Big Muddy
Pete Seeger
Paint It Black
The Rolling Stones · 1966
War
Edwin Starr · 1970
Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is a Season)
The Byrds · 1965
Hello Vietnam
Johnnie Wright
A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall
Bob Dylan · 1963
Give Peace a Chance
Plastic Ono Band · 1969
Goodnight Saigon
Billy Joel · 1982
Ohio
Crosby, Stills & Nash · 1971
Masters Of War
Bob Dylan · 1963
Run Through the Jungle
Creedence Clearwater Revival · 1970
I Ain't Marching Anymore
Phil Ochs · 1965
Draft Morning
The Byrds · 1968
Riders On The Storm
The Doo

or from Oz
"Only 19" is the most widely recognised song by Australian folk group Redgum. The song was released in March 1983 as a single, which hit number one on the national Kent Music Report Singles Chart for two weeks
or from South Africa
Fernando by Abba was adopted by troops involved in the Angolan bush war and had a lot of airtime in country.

Difficult to say how American troops reacted to the songs above. I have worked with many Americans who served in Vietnam. Not one of them would ever speak about it.
Pop song or folk song? Sometimes the boundaries are blurred and dictated more by personal experience than scholastic endeavour.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

JoeG: that is a beautiful and powerful song. Thanks for posting the link to it. It tells a story and touches the heart of social protest like so many others in the pantheon of this thing called folk. He has one dynamite voice, too.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM

So when Jim posts I always have in mind that he and Lloyd and MacColl were in fact a type of 'agit prop'. And Jim seems to me to be trying to continue in this vein, though for me he is as likely to alienate those he is trying to reach as to persuade them. Don't assume that 'the folk' will produce nice lefty stuff in line with Marxist views about base and superstructure and progress towards a classless society is what I am saying or even with liberal views about what the poor/weak/exploited will write. Folk music as in "the dream" is and let us be very clear about this under serious threat by a right backlash, anti minority, anti feminist (when a lot of the folk world hasn't even caught up with 2nd wave feminism).

Humph!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:42 AM

"Is it better to say 'person of obesity' than 'obese person'? I'm asking for a fat c**nt"


That's a quote (presumably some will find it funny) from a modern roots music web site featuring self written music. Pro freedom of speech. Determined to say what they like. People who hate hate speech, they say, simply 'hate speech'. Pictures of tongues in barbed wire to make their points.

Written by somebody definitely 'one of the people'. About politics, certainly. Lots of it in the first person.

So be careful what you wish for.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:04 PM

Iains - so, hardly a massive catalogue of songs about Vietnam, considering the pop output during the period of the war. Also, a number of them have only a tenuous link to say the least. This is not a criticism of pop music or the quality of pop music. There are some great songs in that list.

On the whole, pop is not equipped to deal with issues in depth - that's not the function of pop.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:07 PM

"I'm also thinking that perhaps he was not fully sobered up before posting some recent contributions"
Lot oto read here but I'll start by aking why people feel so insecure that they feel they have toyo be so f**** rude
Grow up Pseud - I've suggested you do before now - you don't seem to have reached adulthood so far
If you can't answer arguments, ignore than please
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:11 PM

I'm glad you like Reg's song Starship - he has many others which are well worth a listen - as you say he has a stunning voice to. Reg is well worth seeing live - as is Joe Solo who is possibly the most passionate performer of any I have ever known


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:37 PM

like JIM,I do not want to go to folk clubs to hear pop songs, if people want to play pop songs in an acoustic manner call it an acoustic music club.but do not expect me to be there
I HAVE PEOPLE COME UP TO ME AT MY GIGS AND SAY HOW NICE IT IS TO HEAR TRAD SONGS and VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE SINGING THEM,you can draw whatever conclusion you like from that but that is my experience


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:42 PM

May as well get the misinformation out of the way first
"Also ironic that Jim is insisting on the need to 'actively participate' in folk music when a) as far as I am aware he is not and has never been a musician, and "
I have been a singer for over fifty years -
I started by accompanying myself but never thought I was good enough
so I worked with a friend for about two decades
Since moving to Ireland I have settled on unaccompanied singing, first out of necessity, later because I found I preferred it
Totally immaterial anyway - it is sheer elitism to suggest that a listener can't have as good an understanding as does a performer
In my opinion many of them have a far greater grasp of many of the singers I have listened to and thought "Someone needs to tell him/her....."

" Jim Carroll has in the past stated that when he goes to folk clubs he expects to hear traditional music but not popsongs and presumably he now no longer wants to go to folk clubs because he believes that he cannot hear the music he wants to hear in them "
I've sort of said that Dick =- I actually said that I stopped going to clubs when I found my self not hearing anything that resembles one
Tousands of others did the same - that's when the clubs started to disappear, as did the shops, record labels magazines and everything that went with them
We are down to a tiny handful of magazines - no shops few labels - and 130 folk clubs
I also made the point that I didn't believe folk clubs were the place for pop songs -
I don'r suppose there are many pop fans who would appreciate being given unaccompanied ballads if they turned up to hear their chosen music
Maybe ours isn't as important to us as theirs if to them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:56 PM

" 130 folk clubs" - who counted them ?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:02 PM

" 130 folk clubs" - who counted them"
I was shocked some time ago to be told there were 180 and to be told that that was propf of a healthy scene
Since then, the wiki article has dropped the number to 130
This has been on offer in during these arguments for a few months now and nobody has challenged it to date, so I assume that people are fine wiith that
The argument seems to have turned to "We don't need folk clubs"
Please try to keep up
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:13 PM

The thing to remember is that we are all* here because of our enthusiasm and repect for 'folk' music..

[* discounting a minority of politically motivated 'trolls'...]

That is what unites us as being on the same side..

I personally prefer 'trad folk' to singer songwriters..
I personally, for whatever reasons in my history, do not go to folk clubs;
though I do support the need for them to exist for as long as other folks want them..
I personally prefer some types of music to most UK folk..
I personally have more emotional engagement with the sound of the music and singers, than the words of old songs..
I personally think electricity is a good thing..

We are not all the same, or here for the same homogenous reasons...

But I stand resolutely alongside any mudcatters I may have petty disagreements with,
when it comes to continuing the survival of our trad music...


.. Right then, who fancies a gratuitous squabble about anything most folks don't give a toss about....


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM

"Jim Carroll in an usually calm and proof-read mode."
I have always believe that people who regularly indulge in childish insulting such as this while at the same to=ime leaps on the rarest chair screaling "insult" at the faintest hint of a challenge to their statements is a sign of limited intelligence
We already have our resident one of those
Can we assume that, now I am back to defend myself we've seen the back of this childish behaviour that is more in the schoolyard pseud
Pack it in eh, there's a good lad !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:21 PM


" 130 folk clubs" - who counted them ?

By my reconing that puts about 20% of the country's folk clubs within Greater London. But then how are you defining a "folk club"? When does a guest booking club turn into a "concert" and when does a singers club turn into an informal singaround?

I am not sure how you would count folk clubs in a realistic manner. There is no central reguister not every county still has a folk association (Ex EFDSS district) that could provide figures.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:24 PM

We already have our resident one of those
little jimmie you are being a pain, Behave!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:34 PM

There are more than 100 listed in Tykes News and over 40 in Folk North West. Just out of interest. Perhaps the 130 refers only to clubs that conform to the 1954 definition? ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:39 PM

Can we continue with the assumption hatchets are buried? Most posts here have been friendly and interesting. Petty squabbles don't help debate. As pfr says the great majority of us are on the same side (though possibly in the way that Labour supporters like me are ;-). I assume we all want to see traditional music survive but have different views on how that is best achieved


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 01:57 PM

Joe G - It's too tempting to paraphrase myself [..ooer.. mrs...]

"But I stand resolutely alongside any Labour voters I may have petty disagreements with,
when it comes to ending the survival of our tory government...
"

well.. nowt wrong with a bit of self indulgent solidarity on a miserable overcast Tuesday evening...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 02:57 PM

"Petty squabbles don't help debate."
Tell those specialise who hurling insults
I just tried to put it into context
"little jimmie you are being a pain, Behave!"
You've been warned above the line - not sure what they can do about your behaviour up here, but you seem to have more friends (not difficult as you have none down below)
"I am not sure how you would count folk clubs in a realistic manner."
I assume they do so by counting those who choose 'folk' in their job description - whether singaround or residents/guests/ floor-singers set ups
As I said earlier, it's beside the point if folk song clubs aren't needed, as is being argued

We had a superb night at a folk-based evening on Saturday - not a bad singer or out-of place song all night (I think I was the only one to sing a non-folk song all evening and I had three requests for the words of it at the end)
Mixture of ages, including half a dozen English visitors from the TSF conference, and half-a-dozen relatively new-to-the-scene singers, mainly women, who were singing like veterans - the whole evening unaccompanied
They had to drive us out at twelve, but I'm told some of the singers draged out musical instruments and joined in the trad session till three in the morning
I got six requests to be linked to my PCloud box by singers looking for new material
THe secrat seems to be that the organiser has been running workshops aimed at drwing in new blood

Bit of a let-down to come home to comments on typos, personal insults and accusations of insobriety
I'd rather the people here lerned from those I met than Saturday's singing crowd learned from the nastiness here
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:16 PM

it's beside the point if folk song clubs aren't needed, as is being argued"

Jim - if you are refering to me..

I've made it explicitly clear I was playing devil's advocate..

part seriously, part in response to other mudcatters ingrained prejudices...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM

Jim -
Tousands of others did the same - that's when the clubs started to disappear, as did the shops, record labels magazines and everything that went with them
We are down to a tiny handful of magazines - no shops few labels


You are describing specifically the folk scene but actually, you are also describing a malaise that exists over all the minority musics and a good part of the Indie and mainstream rock scene. You might add the severe decline in pubs and small music venues and the fact that many festivals, folk and mainstream, are having to look way beyond their purely music content to satisfy today's tastes. You try to ignore the fact that this is a societal not a folk scene only situation. Actually the folk scene is better structured than most to cope with the and well attended song sessions and tune sessions and mixed sessions are thriving as never before because of the high participatory and low or no financial elements. If you lived here you would see these changes for yourself. "No shops few labels" - this is because so many people make their own releases and the sales of digital downloads outstrip the declining CD and vinyl sales.

It has been said by me and others before but I'll say it once more. Fixating on the number of folk clubs does not help because the scene is much more varied, more diverse than you claim. Folk song and music is welcome in many non-specialist venues and in many ways is much healthier than inside the folk ghetto.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM

Very good points Vic. Totally agree. Many of the younger bands & artists who perform traditional material eg Lankum, Jon Boden, Jim Moray, are being heard in a wide range of venues and being discovered by non folkies through You Tube, Spotify etc


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:21 PM

I know where the fixation on numbers came from. The article in Wikipedia about folk clubs that says

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties.[13] The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s


Whoever is fixating on the number is completely missing the point about the decline being down to changing musical and social trends and now stabilising.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:38 PM

Jim - I apologised, and amended my statement "WE don't need folkclubs" - which referred to where I am musically and geographically - to "I [ personally ] don't need folk clubs". It may have been presumptious of me to speak for the other musicians whom I regularly play traditional music with, but it is an undeniable fact, that very few of them have felt the need or desire to set foot in any of the local folk clubs for many years, in some cases, never. You, and nobody else here are in a position to refute that statement, so I would humbly ask you to believe me, and accept it as the truth.
But please, it is at least disingenuous of you to bring this quote up again when I have corrected it. I was speaking solely for myself. I don't think I can be any clearer, or more honest, than that


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 05:45 PM

Just a reminder of the title of this thread...

anyone notice the word "clubs" in it...???

Now as much as clubs were/are important to the folks they are important to...

We were asked to discuss UK folk music in 2019,
not just fixate on one restricted aspect of it...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 06:43 PM

How do people involved in folk music ever find the time to go to folk clubs?

Wednesdays, I've been going a session of some sort for years, currently a "multifolk" one where all kinds of stuff happens. That's Edinburgh Folk Club out (and they do often have good guests).

Thursdays, Middle Eastern band practice. That's my village folk club out (ten minutes walk away but I haven't been there in 15 years).

Tuesdays, klezmer session - not every week but often enough that I've hardly ever been to Leith Folk Club (which can also have good acts).

I do occasionally get to sessions at weekends (not much this summer with either Middle Eastern gigs or drumming on Scottish independence marches) but midweek is when clubs meet.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:15 PM

"I apologised, and amended my statement "WE don't need folkclubs" - which referred to where I am musically and geographically "
The argument has been "we don't need folk clubs" has been a long-running and all encompassing one for a long time now - your saying it was a latecomer into these discussions - it's become the mantra of a dying folk scene
We've had alternatives like concerts and festivals, the internet; and excuses like "folk is no longer relevant" or whataboutism like, "look at what's happening on the music scene in general
Anything but "what can we do to put things right, or even, "is the music worth putting things right for
I don't want apologies - I would like to know what people think
Instead we get insults about alchoholism and typos and snideswipes from the feller who presented 180 odd clubs a sign iof a healthy scene
I think the music is far more important to be sunk under this nastiness and indifference and I have yet to see a single suggestion of how the music willl draw in newe people, as it has in Ireland, without starting at the bottom and rebuilding the foundation it once had

I know the music still has the power to create a buzz among a mixture of experienced veterans and young people - it will be a long time before how it worked on Saturday - I can't see urban Belfast being that much different to London or Manchester or Liverpool
For me, the music is worth it

Dave
The Singers ran steadily till Ewan died - it ran on a little later until Peggy went back to the states
Ftar Peggy got over Ewan's death she played to a packed audience at another club in Hamstead before se reopened The Singers - there was never the lingering demise due to a loss of direction or enthusiasm
In its history, the clubs had a few 'thin' nights but mostly enjoyable comfortably attended ones, because people knew they would hear the music that it carried on its label
In the summer months it became a sort of Mecca for folk lovers from all over the world - particularly the States, but plenty of other places
The residents used to argue that they were committed to presenting w reasonable night whether twent or two hundred were in the audience
If got recordings of club nights where you could walk on the atmosphere - with ewaan and Peggy, or the others

For them, the music was worth it
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:59 PM

I wonder if the entire notion of hobbyist clubs is on the wane..

When I was at school from the early 60s to mid 70s
clubs were very much part of the fabric of our lives.
Pets club, cycle club, angling club, stamp collectors club, war gamers club, model rail club, D&D club, etc...

All actively encouraged and supported by school and parents..

Do clubs still matter to that extent any more these days..??
Are they a fading reminder of past cultural pursuits and social structures..???

Some clubs for adults do seem to be thriving locally,
but what they get up to behind closed doors is best not mentioned here.
They are an open secret seemingly tolerated by the town council and the police.
As long as any folk instruments they may use are thoroughly washed afterwards...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:47 AM

I believe and know to some extent that clubs do meet and have regulars and guest booking policies ~ best is either a sole enterprise or a well run and set up committee! all have pitfalls

Note that clubs are not necessarily all Concert clubs who predominantly book guests and have a wide remit of choice, good for the professionals

Sessions to my mind are different: Mixed sessions instruments, melodeons largely with strings and reeds also and songs usually chorusy ~ or just music sessions of course

Workshops usually attracting up and comers in specific types of instrument, or song

Unaccompanied song sessions with harmony type ideas

Do students bother to read any of these postings?

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:46 AM

Jim, as far as I can see no-one has said we don't need clubs apart from the above guest who has apologised and explained and PFR who was playing devil's advocate. Nor has anyone said that 180 (sic) clubs is the sign of a healthy club scene. If they have, I suggest that you link where they said it.

As far as I can see the vast majority on here have said they can attend folk clubs in their areas very easily. No indication that they are not needed.

It was me who first introduced that wiki article (many years ago it seems) to point out that it says that clubs declined through changing social and musical trends and the decline stopped in the mid 90s with a resurgence of interest.

The figures in the article, seeing as it is you that keeps quoting them, are over 300 in Britain in the mid 1960s down to over 160 whenever the article was published in the 2000s. Whether the figures are right is disputed but the trend indicates an almost 50% reduction. Whatever the actual number, it seems to be plenty enough to satisfy current requirements.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM

"Do clubs still matter to that extent any more these days..??"
Thye don't if you reduce the Songs of the Peiople to "hobbyist' and place it next to "pets" and "stamp collecting" PFR
I've never ever come across it placed in that category
I came onto the scene looking for alternative entertainment too Max Bygraves and Ricky Nelson - I was immediatly swept up in the tidal wave of what folk song was really about
The first concert I ever attended was a benefit raiser in a posh Liverpool Hall, by Rambling Jack Elliot for the then dying Woodie Guthrie, who carried his guitar into war against Hitler bearing the slogan "This machine kills fascists"
I picked up a leaflet for a Pete Seeger Benefit Concert - he had been sntenced to ten one year sentences by the House Un-American Activities Committee
I joined The Spinnrs Club - somewhat bland and over-friendly in the view of an apprentice electrician working on the docks, but the experience, but their singing of anti Apartheid and Ban the Bomb songs immediately got me to realise that, while these songs were very entertaining, they were much much more than that
Topic Records were pouring out records about people just like me - seamen, soldiers and factory workers and when I met Ewan and Peggy I realised that songs such as these went back centuries and operated as a voice for people on the same social level
I listened to and saw Dominic Behan sing songs about a week-long event in Dublin that sent the many-centuries old British Empire crashing about its ears
All this happened in the "hobbyist" clubs that were set up to give youngsters like me a voice of our own, to listen to songs about our forefathers, and and to encourage us to song them ourselves
I wouldn't have got that in the West Liverpool Goldfish Association in Speke
Later I met Lomax, who had toured the Texas prisons taking songs from black Convicts and Charles Seeger who, with his wife Ruth, helped introduce American youth to their heritage duruing Roosevelt's 'New Deal' project

I met Pat and we plunged into recording singers from the lower echelons of society - the despised Tinkers - we took them to folk clubs so others could meet them - we even to three singers, storytellers and musicians to the somewhat starchy Cecil Sharp house and sat them in front of an audience of young people to hear them sing play and tell stories and - most important of all - to swap their knowledge, skills and personal experiences with each other and the listeners - all carried out under folk-club conditions
Those clubs lasted for decades and allowed us to explore our songs and via them, our backgrounds (mine Liverpool post famine Irish, Pat's Anglo Scots) though the songs we listened to and weer able to sing - at the "hobbyist" folk clubs
None of this would have been possible without a club scene and it would be a crying shame to see the generations that come after us deprived of this by being condemned to life sentences of staring at little screens - not if I can help prevent it by making myself a pain in the arse to those who advocate on behalf of shuch inhuman life-sentences

I've got a clear enough view if the state of folk music in the UK, if the opinions of a small handful of people who post here are anything to go by - it's been betrayed and sold back to to the predatory Music Industry we managed to escape from all those years ago
The history of the British Folk Scene is beginning to read like THIS HISTORIC SERIES
Hobbyist - really ???
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:21 AM

we don't need clubs
Read through all the arguments Dave - you don't have to go back further than PFR's four postings up
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:26 AM

Read it Jim. Nowhere does it say we don't need clubs. Are you sure we speak the same language?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:49 AM

...and I hate to break it to you, Jim, but most of us are hobbyists. Aside from professional artists and the handful that make a living from folk academia, none of us are reliant on folk songs for our living. It is a passtime, an entertainment and even an education but so is keeping the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway open. So is enacting civil war battles. So is watching football. No matter how passionate you are about it, to most of us folk song is a hobby.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:56 AM

Ah, fuck it. I tried to explain, I tried to be nice, and what do you get ?
Enjoy your folk clubs. I'll carry on with the music somewhere else, and also stop wasting my time on "Mudcat Cafe".


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:09 AM

Jim, but most of us are hobbyists.
I'm beginning to gather that Dave and find that very depressing
Read it Jim.
Nobody needs hobbies in the age of the computer - we have a little screen that does everything for us
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:36 AM

A hobby is a regular activity done for enjoyment, typically during one's leisure time, not professionally and not for pay

Most of us are, therefore, hobbyists.It has always been thus, Jim. Even in golden era of the folk club. Why does the truth depress you?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:19 AM

Much more than that Dave
If you are serious about your subject you don't have any spare time, for a start - it becomes an extenstion of your life
These are PFR accuriate lists of hobbies
Pets club, cycle club, angling club, stamp collectors club, war gamers club, model rail club, D&D club, etc..
A far cry from how I - and many others regard folk song
Yoy were somewhat disparaging about the idea of talking for a day on folk song
On Saturday we did just that, had a meal and then spent four hours listening to and singing the type of songs we'd been talking about
John Moulden gave a stunning talk on collector Sam Henry and later went and sang about shipwerecks
Maurice Leyden spoke on Belfast Mill Songs and then sang |about them
Fergus Woods talked on Monoghan Songs and then sang them
I talked about Irish Child Ballads and later sang a MacColl song about Navvies and one about A Liverpudlian escaping enlistment in the English army
A perfect end to a perfect day and a massive ruch of adrenaline thrown in for good measure
I came home with a bundle of promises I have to fulfill to share our collection with what will eventually be over a dozen singers, some of them starters out
If you think that's hobbyism, then we live in different Universes
That's the club scene at its best, as I remember it - room for a wide spectrum of all levels on involvement

I have no intention of being part of degenerating this still very promising discussion into one of semantics, by the way - I suggest you look ad PFR's list again
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM

Jim,
Could I politely ask you to re-read through your long post at 23 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM and then answer these two questions?

1] Is there one word in that post which deals with the subject of this thread which is The current state of folk music in UK?

2] Is there one point or statement in that post in that list of your life experiences in this music that we have not read previously, some of them many times, on the Mudcat Café?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:16 AM

I have suggested elsewhere that the figures in that wikipedia article are highly suspect. There is no mention of how they were arrived at. My recollection from when I started going to folk clubs in the late 60s and early 70s is that there were at least a dozen clubs within a 20 or 30 minute drive. Scaling up over the whole county, and even allowing for the more rural areas, that would suggest that 10%-15% of folk clubs were in Essex alone, which I don't find remotely credible. Similarly, when I look at the number of clubs in my region today the wikipedia figure looks like an underestimate.

Folk clubs are pretty special. I can't think of many other situations where amateurs get to perform alongside professionals, or where both floorsingers and general audience are able to easily meet with and talk to their heroes. However none of the clubs I went to, over 20 years and in many different parts of the country, were anything other than places of entertainment. I can't think of any which regularly held discussions or workshops. Of course people chatted about music in the intervals, as well as the other usual topics of conversation, but the clubs of my experience were not centres of education.

However folk clubs are not the only place to listen to or perform folk music. To focus solely on the clubs while ignoring or dismissing all the other options is to gain a false impression of the true state of folk music today.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:17 AM

None of this would have been possible without a club scene and it would be a crying shame to see the generations that come after us deprived of this by being condemned to life sentences of staring at little screens

The average age of the people involved in this folk-based event would be a bit under 30. I don't think there's much screen time involved in it. And even less time sitting around listening to twisted old guys whining.

https://beltane.org/beltane-fire-festival-2019/

Maybe Valmai can chip in about the bonfire societies in Lewes, which are along the same lines. As are the Mari Lwyd events in Wales which Mick Tems here used to play a big role in.

Would they be miffed by having it described as a hobby? I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:27 AM

Absolutely agree with Vic Smith about people using streaming and to let others hear their songs. Soundcloud and lots of others. And if we define folk songs as songs composed by 'the people', as is sometimes done, then you will find a lot of it online.

Also would add a questions 3) to Vic's list that I feel I am not the only one who much prefers long posts to be proof-read and therefore is it not in the interests of people with an idea to convey to do this in the clearest way ie in reasonably well crafted prose?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

On the latest post reporting on the current state of folk music in the Republic of Ireland we read:

"I picked up a leaflet for a Pete Seeger Benefit Concert - he had been sntenced to ten one year sentences by the House Un-American Activities Committee"

Jim, have you got this right? I believe you have stated that you first got into the music courtesy of The Liverpool Spinners in 1960.

If that is correct then your memory isn't.

Pete Seeger had had his travel restrictions lifted and as a result was able to appear in London in concert on 4th October 1959. The concert was promoted by Ballads & Blues. It is quite possible that he also came to Liverpool but presumably at this time you were still enjoying Max Bygraves.

Peggy and Ewan were in the audience and can be heard on the recordings made and issued by Doug Dobell.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM

It's still a hobby, Jim. Every passionate hobbyist in the world is convinced that their own particular passion is the most important. From preserving railways to LARP, everyone will make the same arguments as you. And do you want me to quote Bill Shankley on the importance of football? All you are doing by saying your own hobby is more important than theirs is alienating a lot of people and giving the impression that you think their passion is worthless.

As to Yoy were somewhat disparaging about the idea of talking for a day on folk song

Was I? Just when and where was that? Once again you are arguing against what you think I said rather than against what I actually did say.

Anyway. As I believe I did say, many moons ago. You believe there is something rotten in the state of folk. I, and many others, don't. You left for greener fields. We stayed to enjoy what we have. Win-win situation. We all have what we want. These discussions are interesting but will never achieve anything.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM

Jim - you seem to make the same mistake someone else did yesterday..
Taking light hearted off the cuff words of mine too literally,
and then going off on a rant with them...

But having said that,
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:18 AM
is a prime example of why you are one of my favourite mudcatters..
and also one of our most prickly

Remember, I'm from a working class council estate.
My dad was a factory machine operative, and shop steward.
My mum a cleaner and care worker
She had also been a member of the Labour League of Youth,
and both were idealistic young lefties in the 1950s..
It's their belief in the power of education that got me to grammar school and off the estate.

Despite the fact I am from a region that was source for Cecil Sharpe,
folk music did not exist to any degreee in my upbringing.

Our working class culture was the factory social club and pop covers bands..
and the telly..
Real authentic provincial 1960s and 70s working class culture.
It was grammar school and 6th form college that got me into the town library,
where I found shelves of folk LPs.

As much as you tend to belittle hobbyist clubs,
they have always been of immense importance in working class self education and pride.
School hobby clubs enpowered me to at least care enough about learning to be selected for the best state school in the area..
[rights and wrongs of grammar schools ought be another thread..]

My list was off the top of my head late at night,
and nothing like a serious academic treatise.
But you seem to take it to heart and respond as if it was.
I could have included working men's pigeon clubs and competetive vegetable clubs...
You can be sure those blokes are just as passionate as you about their committment to their life's interest,
and that their clubs are possibly better symbols of working class pride,
than the average posh village folk club.

It was school hobbies that shaped us as people..
and adult hobbies that gave us sense of individuality and status..
Jim, you are a power house of the working class cultural history and music movement,
which is why I admire you.
But you unjustly underestimate the value of other folk's interests and activities, and popular entertainment.

That's why I interact with you the way I do.
A mix of respect and irritation..
If I wind you up occasionally, it's out of friendly mischief, not malice.
Same as I'd do with difficult old opinionated mates in a social club...

Btw.. the humble traditionl working men's clubs and social clubs,
which some pundits say are also living on borrowed time,
mean more to my life than urban middle class folk clubs..
That's just the way it is..
So, I don't take well to patronising put downs on our real working class culture
as it's actually lived in our contemporary era...

..and yes that does include well pissed up kareoke nights,
where ordinary working folks have a great time letting off steam,
and showing off there singing skills for the enjoyment of their friends and strangers...
One old bloke is an excellent 1950s style crooner.
It's probably the highlight of his week and perks his life up a bit...
I'd rather spend a night out in their company than with a bunch of condescending folkie snobs..

That's if I could actually afford to go out drinking anymore...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM

ps.. In my post late last night I was specifically focusing on the general cultural concept of 'clubs'..

I deliberately avoided mentioning 'folk clubs'...

The post before that, I considered whether this thread topic
should even be monopolised by discussion about folk clubs..

Seems some folks just can't help filtering the world through their own entrenched bias...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

I've got to agree with Howard the number of clubs stated does sound far too few if comparing it on a local level. If there are only 300 in the whole of GB (ie Scotland, England and Wales) then by using percentage of population there should only be 12 in the whole of Scotland. The Scottish Borders only consists on 2% of the Scottish population so there should be only a quarter of a folk club. There are of course far more than that. Here in the central Borders three long establised clubs spring straight to mind. My own at Kelso as well as Denholm and the Rolling Hills in Melrose. Add to that there are other regular sessions etc which are maybe not quite so organised along club lines. There are regular song sessions in Hawick, Duns, Selkirk, Yetholm and Morebattle. There are trad mostly tune sessions again here in Kelso as well as Jedburgh. There are regular more small concert type nights in St Boswells, Selkirk and Hawick. This isn't taking into account any clubs or sessions over in the far west or far east of the region.

Likewise as to how people access their music. I love going to the club but it is clear there are lots of people who enjoy folk music who don't go regularly, if at all, to the clubs. There are great online resources for playing music, for discovering music and for sharing music with others.

I use all of the above methods and personally would miss my weekly live club sessions but I also appreciate how others get their music differently.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 08:14 AM

Apologies that should read 25 in the whole of Scotland and half a club in the Borders


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM

Allan
Online resources for playing, discovering and sharing music.
Yes.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:13 AM

I am totally appalled at the level this has sunk to with its ageist and personal insulting
I have put my arguments without rancour and have avoided insulting anybody - would that everybody had doe the same

Vic
If we can't compare what is happening now to what has happened in the past and what we believe could and perhaps should happen - in essence - putting the present scene in its context - then there is little point debating at all other than to say how great things are - there are more than enough sites fro doing that- "thread drift" is usually an escape hatch for those with no answers, in my exerience
Yes - I have said all those things before and have received no replies as any times as I have raised them so I will repeat them as often as I consider necessary

Hoot
Elliot was handing leaflets out at the Guthrie Benefit Concert in 1962 - the year Seeger's sentence was quashed - I can't remember if I had joined the Spinners club then - it was nearly sixty years ago
I still have that leaflet

PFR
Your working class background does you proud - it's a pity it's nort reflected in your attitude towards an extremely important part of working class creative culture
You appear to regard working people like me who indulge in the study of that culture as dogs walking on their hind legs
a bunch of condescending folkie snobs..Shame on you

Jack's ageism is beneath deserving an answer
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM

Yes - I have said all those things before and have received no replies as any times as I have raised them so I will repeat them as often as I consider necessary

I don't suppose I'd get many replies if I posted as often about something comparably interesting, like the composition of my bellybutton fluff.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:43 AM

"like the composition of my bellybutton fluff."
You have as high an opinion of folk song as you do for old people Jack
well done you
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:58 AM

Jim's right..

everyone else is wrong and should be ashamed of themselves..

ok.. got it...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:07 AM

"everyone else is wrong and should be ashamed of themselves.."
Don't twist my words or take them out of context - my remarks are addressed to someone who boasts of his working class heritage and compares the only chance working people ever had of actively participating in workers culture as "trainspotting"
That's you, I think
It isn't a matter of being "right" or "wrong", it never has been - I came here to find out how my opinions stood up in the light of public discussion
There's been little response to that so far
I've long (or short) shown you mine - your turn now
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:23 AM

I have put my arguments without rancour and have avoided insulting anybody

Sorry Jim but I must pull you up on that one.

What about the dozens, if not hundreds, of folk club organisers who put their heart, soul and, often as not, money into folk clubs who you accuse of not knowing What folk music is?

What about the tens of thousands of hobbyists of all types who live their lives for a hobby which you decree is not as important as folk music?

What about me, who you have repeatedly misinterpreted and will undoubtedly continue to do so?

But, once again, is there any real point in continuing this? It seems to have got to the stage where we all know what everyone's views on the current state of folk music in the UK are and are all happy with our own environment. Why try to convince anyone here otherwise? New blood is what is needed and if that brings changes, so be it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:25 AM

There are now an estimated 500 folk clubs thriving in British pubs and backrooms and, contrary to what you might think, they’re not weirdy-beardy or fusty.
In 2015, they embrace wider genres, inspire younger generations and are tremendous sources of fun, friendship and creativity.
Leave your woolly Aran jumpers at home, pull your finger out of your ear and join the "crumblies?".............

https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/entertainment/music/21st-century-folk-clubs

Probably not the most reliable source of statistics, but then neither is wiki.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

I have put my arguments without rancour and have avoided insulting anybody   ….

Good luck with that line of argument!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:50 AM

btw.. accusing any of us of agism is a bit comical..
I don't know how old Jack is,
but at 60 I'm probably one of the youngest here...!!!???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:52 AM

Jim,

Did I mention Jack Elliott or Woody Guthrie ???

Do you not digest anything you read before firing off a reply?

I guess not.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM

Joe Offer (administrator) 13 Oct 19 - 09:32 PM
OK, now let's talk about "The current state of folk music in UK" - and nothing else.

Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 09:13 AM
Yes - I have said all those things before and have received no replies as any times as I have raised them so I will repeat them as often as I consider necessary.

Well, it seems to me that you are getting no replies because those participating want to concentrate on the subject in hand which has led to some interesting and thoughtful posts rather your expressed wish to "repeat them as often as I consider necessary." Another reason is that you expect answers to questions but we do not see much evidence of you giving answers asked of you.

It also seems to me that you should consider the statement made to you by an administrator as he was forced to close yet another recent thread down through your intransigence -
You know lots of good stuff about music, and yet you seem to turn every discussion into a discussion of yourself and how you are offended. Most of us here, don't give a rat's ass HOW offended you are and who offended you. We want to talk about music, not about Jim Carroll.

I am not trying to be unkind in quoting this, Jim, but I don't want to see another good thread closed down and I know that even if you are not up-to-date with the UK scene that you could contribute much of interest to the current thread. Do you think that I could ask you to do so?
To me, it seems to me that people here are bending over backwards to accommodate you. I certainly feel as though I am. I feel that the closure hammer is close again. I want to discuss the state of the UK scene and here I am - being suckered into talking about Jim Carroll again.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM

"someone who boasts of his working class heritage "


Jim - and why would you think I was boasting...??????

I think the word you might have been struggling for was 'explaining'..

or some other neutral word like that..

Yet again, you get yourself worked up into confrontational/defensive mode,
when most of the rest of us are just having a matey straight forward, sometimes hypothetical, discussion..


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 11:15 AM

There are now an estimated 500 folk clubs thriving in British pubs and backrooms and, contrary to what you might think, they’re not weirdy-beardy or fusty.
In 2015, they embrace wider genres, inspire younger generations and are tremendous sources of fun, friendship and creativity.


And folk music also includes the kind of event I mentioned where music is only part of the spectacle - these involve far more effort than any folk club night, on a vast scale with script development, prop and costume making, makeup, pyrotechnics, circus skills training, first aid, working with children... in other words pretty much the same sort of commitment popular festivities anywhere have involved for millennia. They attract audiences of thousands. Folk music is also the kind of act I was doing a couple of weeks ago as one of the musicians on the Edinburgh Scottish independence march - 200,000 people ranging from facepainted people in their 90s being pushed in wheelchairs to pre-school girls in unicorn costumes. Popular creativity doesn't have to involve sitting through a raffle with 30 pensioners.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM

"confrontational/defensive mode,"
Not me
But yet again, you fal to respond to what I argue

"OK, now let's talk about "The current state of folk music in UK" - and nothing else."
Joe has no more right to direct the way a thread should be discusses as any of us has if it can be shown that the direction it has taken is relevant - I believe I have done that on numerous occasions
When I said my poit have not been responded to I was referring to other threads, as you were when you referred to my repeating points
Nobody has suckered you into talking about me - you have chosen to do that in order to stop this present discussion
Sop blaming others for your own bahaviour
If you are not going to respond to what I have said, please make your own points and stop trying to prevent me from making mine

Hoot
I put in Guthrie and Elliot in order to confirm my having picked up the leaflet - 1962 - the same year as Seegers's sentence was finally quashed
Go and look it up before you indulge in insulting please
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 11:37 AM

Good post, Vic.

Can I suggest we concentrate, as you suggest, on the thread topic.

What is good?
What can be improved?
How can we help to improve it?

I can kick off by repeating my views that the current folk club scene seems healthy enough but, in my experience, does need an injection of new blood. I don't think we will get that new blood by insisting that only traditional songs, sung in the traditional manner should be performed. Tradition should certainly always be in the fore but young people need to be given their head to find new ways to enjoy it. I would certainly never subscribe to the "anything goes" school (despite being accused of just that) but I see nothing wrong in trying something new.

I accept that there are whole new ways of enjoying folk music too. How can these be utilised to inject new ideas into the way us old gits enjoy our folk? Usually over a pint or three :-)

Next!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 11:49 AM

On a roll now. Virtual sessions have been mentioned. There are problems with latency etc. but how about a virtual room where people can perform without the pressure of a live audience? Ok. You cannot join in but a skilful and sympathetic room admin could use it to help and encourage performers by inviting constructive criticism from viewers. A sort of virtual critics group :-) It may be better than the original as we would soon see which viewers should be allowed to comment and which should be kept on a tight leash!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:01 PM

Dave
How can we help to improve it?

By constant analysis, evaluation and discussion about development followed by action. In many ways this is already going on; Jack Campin enumerates a lot of things that we should feel proud off, but there are still ways in which things can be improved and one of my bugbears has been the use of cribsheets & electronic devices to read the words. Here I would distinguish between a free admission singaround and a paid event like a guest night at a folk club. I resent paying money to her someone read a song that they have not bothered to learn. My own impression is that this is not anything like as common as it was five years ago in Sussex but I am old enough not to give a monkey's about what I say so if I encounter it I will always gently point out to singer and compere my feelings that a song cannot be expressed until it has been learned.
I can see more of a case for in free singarounds but it still irritates because it never used to be considered good enough.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

Could having a virtual room where inexperienced performers could practice their act and be "judged" by sympathetic viewers help with that, Vic? If you saw someone live who had obviously not learned their songs you could suggest they try out on virtualcritics.com first :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

Jim,

Your posting seemed to imply that a benefit concert was being held for Pete Seeger.

As Pete had appeared in the UK in 1959 it seems unlikely that he needed a benefit concert in the 1960's.

He had also appeared at the Royal Albert Hall in London on 16th November 1961. I still have the flyer and I quote

"Phillips Recording Star PETE SEEGER SINGS"

"a Singers Club Presentation"

I am NOT attacking or insulting you just trying to clarify/correct what your posting implied.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:28 PM

"Your posting seemed to imply that a benefit concert was being held for Pete Seeger."
Sorry Hoot - could have sworn I said it was for Woodie who was suffering from Huntigon's Chorea - my fault
It was at the Bluecoat Chambers in Liverpool
I saw Pete at the AH in the seventies - a spectacular show in extremely luxurious surroundings
Our singer friend, Oliver Mulligan was an accountant for McAlpine's and he got us seats in the Company's box, right over the stage - should have saved the wood-chips from Pete's chopping logs onstage
Not at my best today - I returned from Belfast with a streaming cold as well as a load of books

"Can I suggest we concentrate, as you suggest, on the thread topic."
You too - not really surprised any more

Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:28 PM

Phew - you've all been busy whilst I've been away - we must be past the 300 by now Dave?!

Thanks to the last few posters for trying to get the discussion back on track - lots of interesting stuff here - let's keep it that way and not descend once again into pointless arguments. I'll keep my tongue bitten if everyone else will when it comes to the comparative importance of preserving our transport heritage, civil war re-enactments and folk song collecting and singing :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:43 PM

DtG - I'm out of touch with how well it's progressing,
but online musicians communities have been working on solving latency problems...

Maybe in the not too distant future,
with faster more reliable internet connections,
it may be possible for folks within a reasonable distance from each other
to play together in real-time sessions on line...???

But right now it is possible to work out simple set ups for online turoring and mentoring...

. even auditions...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM

Joe G. If I remember rightly either the KWVR or the Embsay Railway have had folk events in the past. Moira Furnace festival always had a civil war re-enactment event. Maybe we can combine the lot. Would I need to wear an anorak over my Aran jumper though and where would I keep my halberd?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:26 PM

Us folkies often have a lot of common ground with other enthusiasms - I'm a bus and beer man myself. Fully paid up anorak :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM

Moira Furnace Folk Festival that is!

BTW. Forgot to mention. I was in Whiby on Friday but didn't realise Musicport was on! Not that I could have got tickets but maybe I could have bought you a pint somewhere. Ah well. Next time perhaps :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:44 PM

No one is obliged to make comments on others views ~no matter how many times the views are expressed!

The question above is seeking views as to the "current state" of folk music in the UK~ this does pre suppose that views and comments are invited from people attending or participating in folk music (however defined!) or song as a hobbyist or professional

Thread drift once again is not appreciated (hope Joe G agrees)

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:53 PM

btw..

"Your working class background does you proud
- it's a pity it's nort reflected in your attitude towards an extremely important part of working class creative culture
"

That's insulting and patronising... and very wrong...

Even though we on the same side, with similar objectives,
you are too wrapped up in your own preconceptions
to show fair respect for my different experience and knowledge..

"If you aint with Jim exactly, you're against 'im..."...???


"You appear to regard working people like me who indulge in the study of that culture as dogs walking on their hind legs
a bunch of condescending folkie snobs..Shame on you
"

Again.. wrong...!!!
That's just you distorting what I said to fit your own misunderstanding
of what I posted...

I dont care what class background a condescending folkie snob is from...

I just don't take well to smug elitist folkies who think they and their music
are superior to mass popular entertainment,
usually associated with real life modern working class culture,
and the millions of folks who love/live it...

Now I'm not saying you are the class traitor,
because neither of us is..

But you are lining up with middle class folkie snobs
in your dismissive disdain for what most ordinary folks take great pleasure and comfort from...

.. and let's not have any of that 'opiates for the masses' bollocks...
We already had you dusting of 'alienation' from our old marxist text books...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

One aspect of the current scene that we haven't discussed is the way in which all musicians have altered their attitudes to recording their music.

I think this has impacted on folkies in many ways. Sometimes I think the recorded versions of songs are more comprehensible, Its easier to understand and apprediate than the live version.

I also think some people who have something to say are not robust public performers find the recording situation more comfortable than singing in the competitive pub atmosphere.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM

I can kick off by repeating my views that the current folk club scene seems healthy enough but, in my experience, does need an injection of new blood. I don't think we will get that new blood by insisting that only traditional songs, sung in the traditional manner should be performed.

Or perhaps the folk club regulars could haul their arses out of their comfy armchairs and make the case for the music they care about in the outside world? The sort of large-scale ritual/drama I was talking about can easily incorporate traditional song, and often has done - but better it comes from somebody willing to get their hands wet in the papier mache first.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM

In the past 5 years I have visited Essex, Devon, Cornwall, Lancashire, and North wales.

I found folk clubs for each night we where in those counties.

When I am North Yorkshire there are two weekly clubs close at hand and in the town I live in their are sessions EVERY night of the week.

That seems pretty healthy to me.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

"That's insulting and patronising"
"If you aint with Jim exactly, you're against 'im..."...???
"But you are lining up with middle class folkie snobs"
THink were're finished here - don't you ?
I've told you exactly where I'm coming from - over and over again
You have obviously made up your own mind on that and nothing I'll ever say will change that
That little diatribe along with the ungainly rush for the 'thread drift' escape hatch just about finished me for now - I really have had enough
I'd happily continue this till Tim Henman takes the Mans' Singles, but not under these fouled-up circumstances
I'll leave you to it
- for now at least
Enjoy
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:59 PM

Perhaps because posters here are relatively old, few if any posts have referred to University Folk Clubs. I have googled and quickly found evidence of clubs at the following unis:
Leeds, Sheffield, Bristol, Durham, Glasgow, Nottingham

Some of these specify that they are interested in a range of folk music, not just that deemed to be of UK or British Isles origin, but this is within the range of the subject line of this thread. So that is a positive, I hope. Some seem to run events open to town as well as gown.


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