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The current state of folk music in UK

Joe G 20 Nov 19 - 02:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM
Howard Jones 20 Nov 19 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM
Joe G 20 Nov 19 - 01:33 PM
Raggytash 20 Nov 19 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 01:23 PM
r.padgett 20 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
r.padgett 20 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM
Raggytash 20 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:24 PM
Joe G 20 Nov 19 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM
Raggytash 20 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 19 - 11:25 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 19 - 10:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM
Raggytash 19 Nov 19 - 06:39 PM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 06:28 PM
Jack Campin 19 Nov 19 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Peter 19 Nov 19 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,kenny 19 Nov 19 - 06:06 PM
Raggytash 19 Nov 19 - 05:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Nov 19 - 04:25 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 02:51 PM
Raggytash 19 Nov 19 - 02:51 PM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 02:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM
Jack Campin 19 Nov 19 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,HiLo 19 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM
Vic Smith 19 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Hi 19 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Nov 19 - 11:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 10:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 10:37 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,HIlo 19 Nov 19 - 09:21 AM
Joe G 19 Nov 19 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 08:41 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 19 - 07:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 19 - 07:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 19 - 06:38 AM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 02:13 PM

Thanks Dave. You expressed that much better than I did in my post

I really value Jim's contributions when he is being constructive and we had some interesting exchanges earlier but his antagonism towards the music and venues we love and insistence on it being better in the old days gets tiresome.

All I want is to have a friendly constructive discussion about what is happening today with examples. Thanks to those many of you who have contributed to that aspiration :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM

I reached the end of mine a couple of days ago! But I am willing to give it one more try.

Jim, this thread is about the current state of folk music in the UK. Your contributions about the past are welcome as a background to what we are doing now but they should not be the focus. One more time I plead with you to stick to what you know rather than disrupting what could be a very interesting and stimulating discussion with speculation about what has gone wrong and why. Please just accept that everyone on here but you accepts that the scene is not perfect but is happy with what currently goes on.

Give it a try at least and it you want to make suggestions that stem from your past experience, feel free. But we cannot turn the clock back so concentrate on the now and how we can make things even better.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:53 PM

I don't see why sessions shouldn't be included. They are just as much part of the folk scene as folk clubs, and are far more participatory than some clubs. Standards in sessions are no different from those in clubs - which is to say that some are dismal, and some are excellent.

Despite what Jim thinks, you can even hear ballads sung. It all depends on the audience, and you can have receptive and appreciative audiences in sessions, and unappreciative ones in folk clubs. To give only one example, I have a vivid memory of Martin Clarke singing a superb version of 'Lord Bateman' in what was primarily a tunes session, and it was very much appreciated by the sizeable audience.

Even taking sessions into account, I don't claim that the folk scene is in as good a state as in its heyday. But it's doing OK, and most importantly new generations are taking it up. I just don't recognise Jim's description of the currebt scene - I'm not saying the things he complains of aren't real, but they are not typical of my own experience.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM

I finf "moving on" from Walter et al a bit of a giveaway phrase, by the way
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM

"I asked that Walter be discussed elsewhere"
If I mistook your intention I apologies, I'm not sure I did -
I'm not sure how throwing Walter, as the only example of a traditional singer, being evicted helps a discussion such as this anyway nobody else was suggesting a return to real folk music
I wasn't the only one toto take your point as I did
It was followed by the suggestion that in future source singers be given their own perma - thread (to keep them out of the way, I took that to mean
What they had to offer should be a permanent guide to where the scene is heading if you are talking about folk song - go and ask Martin Carthy or Liza or Lal - all of whom have spent a great deal of time saying exactly that
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:33 PM

Once again Jim you are twisting the facts - and this will be my last word on this matter. I asked that Walter be discussed elsewhere as I considered that a detailed discussion about a specific singer would clog up this thread where we want to discuss what is happening TODAY at the many clubs and other venues where people enjoy what most people here consider to be folk music. I'd never heard of the definition of 1954 and to be honest I couldn't give a monkeys about it. Time moves on and fortunately so does the music. We have a fantastically diverse and interesting folk music scene at the moment and I am glad I am living at a time where the music is blossoming and access to it is easier than ever.

If you keep on insisting on throwing in such untruths as 'Walter was thrown off because his example was an embarrassment' I'd rather you did not participate in the discussion. Your contributions are getting in the way of what I think has been an interesting discussion. I'm sorry to have to say this but I am reaching the end of my tether


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:33 PM

Well said Ray.

I know just how time, effort and energy you have put into the folk music scene over the past few decades.

To hear that all your efforts were not worth a toss by someone who hasn't set foot in a folk club for decades is appalling.

Carroll, if he had an ounce of senseor common decency, should be offering grovelling apologies to many on this forum.

Yourself and folkes like Steve Gardham who I know has put so much effort in safeguarding material together with all the people who have played and sung folk for the past few decades are being told we are useless by someone who once knew Ewan and believes he is gods gift to folk music because of it.

Carroll you are a disgrace.

Again, my apologies to the rest of you good people,but this guy gets right up my left nostril. We should not tolerate his abuse.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:23 PM

"Please have the decency to at least believe that folk music and song has moved on from the early days of revival and collectors"
How can a revival that has admitted that it doesn't know what folk song i and is not prepare to discuss it have moved in any direction other than backwards
The revival doesn't know where it is going at present and from some of the of the examples of where some people want it to be going, that may be a blessing
Thank god you can't even agree among yourselves in my opinion _ I would hate to see it sold back to teh music industry lock, stock and barrel and all the remaining singers be replaced by super-star wannabes

As far as Walter, et al, people like Harry Cox and Sam Larner were pert of the revival long after they were dead as examples - there are no source singers in England now and few enough English language singers in Ieland
If there is no place for them on a discussion about the modern revival how else are those you have listed and people like myself, who believe that what they had to say is relevant to the modern scene, how are we gouing to discuss what be live should be happening   
Walter was thrown off because his example was an embarrassment(at least somebody had the balls to say that)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM

The Healthier climes is what you should steer towards, I have told no lies on here!

the scene has not bombed ~ it has changed as things tend to do

I have told you what you do not want to hear and you are the one with deaf ears

You are NOT helping the discussion you have your own agenda

Goodbye Jim, no I am not leaving

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM

Down "to telling lies now" - curioser and curioser
I don't suppose you can be arsed trawling through the forum archive for examples of people arguing for keeping things as they were when the scene bombed - I most certainly can't - wast of time - "deaf ears" comes to mind
I really don't think I want to talk to anybody who reduces discussion to this level Rag - you disappoint me
Let's move on to healthier climes eh what
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM

NO nope, Jim Carroll I am sure that Joe Grint, myself and other posters feel that Walter and MacColl are not currently at the forefront of the what is happening in folk clubs, concerts and mixed folk song and music sessions

Yes the traditional singers and source singers and other contemporary singer songwriters like MacColl Keith Marsden, Eric Bogle, Nancy Kerr and Kate Rusby are all part of the current body of music which folk enthusiast are listening to and finding pleasure and material to add to their repertoire

Please have the decency to at least believe that folk music and song has moved on from the early days of revival and collectors ~ entertainment was always part of singing and the oral processes still exist ~ the tradition does still come into play and singers do sing the traditional ballads ~clearly not as much as you perhaps would like but what can WE do about it? Indeed what do you WANT folk clubs and gatherings to do and why do WE on mudcat suffering your endless rants

I really find your posting a bit much ~WHAT do you wish to achieve, please?

Ray, Roy, Ron, Egbert ~for goodness sake


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM

Unless you were extremely unlucky I very much doubt your experience.

Or perhaps you are being economical with the truth.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:24 PM

"How the hell do you know what standards exist today if you have not been in a folk club for years. Idiot."
Nice tolerant language Raggy - makes it difficultly to give a reasonable reply but here goes
People have been arguing in favour of the use of crib sheets and describing suggestions for improvements in standards as "elitism" since I first started posting on this forum - if anything, those arguments have become more vehement
The decline in the folk scene was marked by a long, long series of letters in Folk Reciew (entitled "Crap Begets Crap") arguing that if standards didn't improve the clubs would bonb - and they did
At the last London folk club I visited, in the cellar of Cecil Sharp House" - I wass blinded by the glare of mobile phones being used as prompts and I couldn't hear the words of many songs for the rustle of crib sheets - song words were forgotten and singers sang out of tune
Unless there has been an epiphany in the last year or so, I have little reason to believe much has changed
Id...... sorry !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:19 PM

Can we get back to the second decade of the 21st century please. Some of us live, and go to folk clubs and other folk events there :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM

"how did we get back to Ewan MacColl-"
Probably for the same reason Walter Pardon was relevant to this thread (and was hown off unceremoniously)
If people had listened what both of them wee saying and doing the current revival wouldn't be blowing for tugs, at it is
I am discussion how MacColl argued the revival should conduct itself if it was to call itself "folk"
I thinkk you'll find Paggy says the same and she is very much out in front of the revival - in singing and songwriting - even at her age !!!
If some of the names mentioned here are relevant to the FOLK SONG REVIVAL I'm damn sure they all are
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM

How the hell do you know what standards exist today if you have not been in a folk club for years. Idiot.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 11:25 AM

My point Jack was that MacColl was far more sinned against than sinner
If he had behaved towards others half as badly as people are still behaving towards him, three decades after his death he world have desreved everything he got and more
If you think the Mudcaters "cunt" joke is acceptable your attitude towards how to respect your fellow folk enthusiasts is far different that mine

MacColl and Seeger devoted a great deal of their lives to helping the revival progress, passing on their collected material, working with less experienced singers, researching traditional material and sharing it...
Having attended their club from the late sixties to when it closed, I came to the conclusion that MacColl's 'poor' reputation was based his practice of, when he was asked his opinion on the singing of floor-singers, he gave it rather than saying when they wanted him to say - usually, that it was the best he'd ever come across since sliced bread'   
He ws an experienced and thoughtful singer (whether you liked his singing or not, and the research he and the Group carried out during its the ten yours life remains unsurpassed
He offered praise where he believed it was due and he offered advice
This doesn't go down well with a folk revival that believes itself above criticism
I felt it a privilege to work with good singers who were interested in my singing enough to offer assistance - most singers on the scene I knew adopted the Garbo "I vant to be alone" approach
That's why the standards declined and the performances fell below an acceptable public level - in m opinion -- of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 10:07 AM

how did we get back to Ewan MacColl- there is a separate thread asking for anecdotes about him- READ the title of the thread- he's been dead 40 years!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM

'The fact that MacColl and Seeger couldn't come up with such a response says they weren't exactly A-list troupers.'

They were on my A list, and I'm not even a traddie. This is a guy who gave and gave to the folk revival.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM

Joe Solo, Jez Lowe, Reg Meuross, John Tams, Robb Johnson also immediately spring to mind


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:39 PM

Folk clubs or sessions ............. who gives a flamingo as long as there is folk music.

I, for one, don't really care what you term the night.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:28 PM

Good question Jack

Greg Russell and Ciaran Algar have superb banter as well as being excellent musicians and song / tune writers. They are brilliant with the rare hecklers too


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:24 PM

That story about the chairback sign doesn't make the point Jim would like it to.

Most showbiz performers would have seen it as something to riff on for an ad-lib routine. Imagine what Matt McGinn or Hamish Imlach could have done with it (in fact they'd probably both have been capable of putting the sign there themselves). They'd have had the audience in stitches over it with a routine nobody could have seen coming.

The fact that MacColl and Seeger couldn't come up with such a response says they weren't exactly A-list troupers.

And if we're looking at current performers: who are the great stage-repartee people now?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:08 PM

Now either that area is over generously endowed with folk session, having more than the entire total given by Wiki or someone is talking their anal orifice.
Or perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges by including sessions.

The figure of 130 is total bollocks anyway but not quite as far out as you suggest.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:06 PM

Jim hasn't been discussing "sessions" - he specifically has been talking about organisations which designate and publicise themselves as "Folk Clubs". How many "Folk Clubs" are there in your list ? It's certainly not 200.
I can only speak from my experiences in Scotland, but I would think there are fewer than half the "Folk Clubs" in Scotland at the moment than there was in the 1970s and 80s. I can also say from personal experience that when I was in a band playing clubs in the mid-1980s, the average audience would have between 40 and 60 in number. I played a lot of the Scottish clubs about 7-8 years ago as part of another group, the average number in the audience was 20 - 40. Average age would have been over 50.
These are my personal experiences of "the current [ or very recent ] state of folk music in Scotland" - which I accept does not necessarily extrapolate to the whole of the UK.
I have also returned tonight from a "singaround / session" at the Aberdeen branch of the TMSA. There were 25 people there. When we started the branch in the mid-1980s, we very rarely had less than 60 attending. Not a single soul there under the age of 40, maybe even 50. Figure it out for yourselves.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:23 PM

Well Dave, I had quick look earlier and there are over 50 clubs/sessions in Greater Manchester.

That added to 144 in West Yorkshire and surrounds add up to over 200 in a relatively small area of the UK.

Now either that area is over generously endowed with folk session, having more than the entire total given by Wiki or someone is talking their anal orifice.

I'll get you guess which I believe. Especially given their attendence at such places in the past 30 years.

My apologies to all you good people to sing, play, promote and enjoy folk music but this has to be pointed out and if I ruffle a lot of feathers personally I don't give a f.............. flying flamingo.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:25 PM

Hi Raggy. I have already pointed out that the numbers quoted are irrelevant. They are obviously wrong but someone keeps quoting one of them, incorrectly, without the other. As I said a few posts back the main point of the Wiki article was that the number declined in the 80s but by the mid 90s the decline stopped. It also states that the decrease was due to changing musical and social trends. Which makes sense to me. Unlike the other explanation!. I have no idea where they got the figures from. EFDSS registered maybe? I dunno. But presuming they use the same source for both 1965 (over 300) and now (over 160) it shows that their source shows that the number of clubs had almost halved. No surprise to me as the number of pubs has reduced by a similar amount. Hope this helps and puts the 186, 136 or whatever figure is next quoted to bed once and for all.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 02:51 PM

"But honestly Jim, you have to understand that WE all accept that not everybody is going to like us if we become a professional artist."
THere's that in it Al, but with Ewan it lasted a lifetime and thirty years after he died
Bit much, doncha think
Like they say about the Irish - the plumber may forget to turn up but they'll never forgive Britain for the siege of Waterford
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 02:51 PM

For the sake of accuracy I will say again that the are more sessions listed in filofolk in West Yorkshire than are listed on wiki for the whole of the country.

There are not as some would claim a little over a hundred in the whole country. Can you HEAR THIS!!!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 02:21 PM

Interesting story Vic. one thing i think Ewan and Martin had in common was a love of life and of music and enthusisam for what they were doing


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:45 PM

No I'd never heard that story. But honestly Jim, you have to understand that WE all accept that not everybody is going to like us if we become a professional artist. It goes with the territory we occupy.

In one of Dirk Bogarde's books, he tells the story of a director who was always horrible to him, and just as Dirk was retiring said - I TOLD YOU'D never be any good!

Its just the bravery of the ordinary performer footsoldier. If you haven't got it, you can't do the job.

Some of your friends get very hurt when they see the way people treat you and the things they say. But the bottom line is that you don't let these assholes stop you from doing what you want to do ...i promise you, Ewan would have understood this.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM

"What stories about Ewan?"
Where have you been for the last thirty years since Ewan's death - and the thrity years before that Al ?

Here's one you might like
The Travelling People Radio Ballad was considered one of the most influential broadcasts in presenting the voice of Travellers to the general public and was reckoned to have helped Travellers improve their conditions enormously
When it was being finalised before broadcasting in 1964 the team put out an appeal for Traveller songs and recieved a tape of three from a 'Travelling woman'
They programmed it into the script and gave it to Sheila Stewart to sing as the recording was too poor
They later received a phone call revealing that the songs were not by Travellers but made up by folkie, John Brune putting on a phony voice
Sheila was dropped from the programme which was nearly abandoned because of the nearness o its going out - if it had gone out the anti- Traveller lynch-mob would have leapt on it as a fake
Frigging hilarious

And then there's the story told on Mudcat of Ewan and Peggy being booked at a folk club - as you probbly know, Ewan's relaxation technique was to turn it back-to-front and straddle the back
The Muddcatter who told the story baosed how he pinned a piece of paper to the chair back reading "WE ARE A PAIR OF CUNTS" facin the audience
Luckily one of them had the deceny to remove it before they started
Doncha just love the professional courtesy towards fellow artists shown by that sort of behavior ?
Want any more - there are a few ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 12:07 PM

Meet the Earl S. Landgrebe of music history:

I can't be arsed about how 100% accurate an insignificant story about somebody as predatory as Dylin is


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM

The post from Hi was me, sorry


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM

You've got to admire Jim's ability to fight on half a dozen or more fronts at once. I couldn't do it at my age.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM

Al wrote: -
There is actually a lot to be learned from everybody you meet on the folkscene and every audience has something to teach you.

Breakfast with Martin Carthy one of the many times he stayed after performing at our club.

Vic: All the very many times that I have seen you booked in folk clubs, you are always in the room all evening, always listening intently. Don't you ever get fed up?

Martin: You can learn from anybody - even if you are learning what not to do. Sometimes a not very good singer can sing an interesting song in a different way or they can remind you of something in your repetoire that you are neglecting and shouldn't be.

Another time he stayed with Dan Quinn, one of our resident singers. Dan told me that I would have blushed if I had heard Martin talking about how good he thought my singing of The Gypsy Laddies had been.

Not long after this I was reading one of the many magazine interviews with Martin and he said something like 'I was in the Lewes club not long ago and one of the floor singers was Marilyn Bennett. What a great voice and what a great way she has in putting over an unaccompanied song'.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hi
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM

I really don't give a toss what Ewan McColl called himself...I do care about your insistence on relaying stories that even you know to be false. Again Jim, it goes to you credibility. What is your opinion worth if you can't be "arsed" to tell the truth.
   And Dylan may have been a lot of things but Predatory was not one of them.And please don't respond with that old Jilted Joan story.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 11:43 AM

I posted the link to FiloFolk earlier Pseud - it might have been in your Rioja period ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 11:38 AM

Here's an example of online material. There is plenty like this.
I apologise for not providing blue clickies: I have tried, but in vain.

https://filofolk.tykesnews.org.uk/venues.php

And here is one person's work at listing folk magazines.

Plenty here to be positive about?

http://www.jacey-bedford.com/folkmags.htm


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 10:53 AM

What stories about Ewan?

I'm always the last one to know.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 10:47 AM

"Jim, you have got to stop telling those ridiculous stories about Bob Dylan not wanting to go to the south .."
I know the story from an interview with Theodor Bikel, which I still have here
It is convincing enough for me to tell the story as I do, and frankly, in a world that still digs up MacCool thirty years after his death to give him a kicking with stories I know to be blatantly untrue, I can't be arsed about how 100% accurate an insignificant story about somebody as predatory as Dylin is
If you people were equally concerned about stories about MacColl, Lloyd, Sharp (and now Child) were I might think a litle differently
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 10:37 AM

'i know high quality performers who will not go to some singers clubs in the uk because the standard is variable and sometimes very poor'

WE all do and some won't go to a club, unless its to network and try for a gig. There was atime when a BBC folk programme refused to publicise clubs were the programme comperes didn't have a chance of a gig.

Its the trouble with the folk world - it riven with people with superiority complexes. There is actually a lot to be learned from everybody you meet on the folkscene and every audience has something to teach you.

When you ignore the lessons or close your ears to them, then your music gets smaller - as it gets further away from life as lived and jumps into the abyss of the museum and the internet.

This isn't just applying to traditional music. There are hundreds of prosaic contemporary songwriters - who songs need 32 tracks of special effects to 'work'.

The folk world is very specific. The folk club audiences are, or should a unifying discipline that we all work to. Try to respect the achievements of others.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM

yes, we did maypole dancing at primary school, it would be good if it was introduced again , if it has not been,it teaches the benefits of teamwork in a fun way
people go to folk events to socialise they also do not go if the performances are poor, so both jim and al are right,
i know high quality performers who will not go to some singers clubs in the uk because the standard is variable and sometimes very poor and because they have to listen to poorly performed pop songs, and poorly performed trad songs. nobody minds if the people gradually get better, but when there is no attempt to practise,as is the case with some performers, its only fun for masochists


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HIlo
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 09:21 AM

Jim, you have got to stop telling those ridiculous stories about Bob Dylan not wanting to go to the south ..this has been refuted in two readily available interviews, one with Theo Bikel and another with Alan Grossman. I pointed these out to you on this forum about a month ago.
   You do seem to ignore all facts that prove that you are mistaken. You also seem to have a penchant for inventing facts that suit your view. This makes it difficult not to question your credibility.
I know you don't like Bob Dylan. fair enough..but that is no reason to make clearly dishonest statements about him.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 09:01 AM

Thanks for clarifying Al. I thought that was the case but wasn't sure


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 08:41 AM

"I don't think people go to folk clubs for critical analysis"
Of course they do to an extent Al
Try to get someone who has been forced to sit through an evening of crap singing back to that club and you'll see what I mean
Nobody switches off their critical faculties in order to enjoy singing - the two go together like a horse and whatsit
It has bencome too easy to argue that working on singing spoils enjoyment and has become an excuse for sloppy singing and not being arsed to learn words
Apart from anything else a singer has to enjoy his or her own singing and they are not going to do that by forgetting words, o over-pitching or singing out of tune
Singing wall enough to please yourself takes work and that work has to be based on self criticism, if people are going to refuse to listen to the opinions of others, as most folkies do, in my experience
Personally, I regard criticism of my singing a compliment paid by someone who cares enough to help
I find often that those in the most need of help are the ones who refuse to accept it
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 07:53 AM

Spot-on Al.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM

I don't think people go to folk clubs for critical analysis. I never did. I think it takes a lot of bottle, these days to get up and sing.

Most of the population are locked into a cycle between their phones and the wide screen TV. God alone knows how they get time to breed.

We who break out of the cycle are a persecuted minority. New recuits are welcomed - not criticised.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 07:13 AM

"Jim making snotty remarks about folk clubs like that."
Not the clubs Al, just the severe shortage of them and what is passed off as 'folk' in far too many of them
I think clubs are essential
I see no critical analysis here - any bugger can pat his and his mate's back
If I can put up with the snide that has gone on here without returning it in kind, isn't it about time you faced what is being said head on rather than back-heeling it into the gutter
Just a though ("for time is short dear")
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 06:38 AM

Joe, I was looking forward to going to my favourite folk club. The Oddfellows Arms in Wimborne.
I was looking forward to seeing all my friends and hearing them sing. Ididn't care what they sang. I didn't care how badly or well they sang. By eight o'clock the tiny room would be full and you'd have to stand.

But you have to park a way away. it was a cold night and I didn't want to get breathless with the cold. And I didn't want to carry a heavy guitar. I had to stay in.

I sit down at the computer and here's Jim making snotty remarks about folk clubs like that.

Like Voltaire says, I would fight for his right to say these things. My father in the much despised British army did fight. However sometimes it gets right on my tits.


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