mudcat.org: The current state of folk music in UK
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39]


The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,kenny 22 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM
Raggytash 22 Nov 19 - 05:21 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 19 - 05:19 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 19 - 05:07 PM
Jack Campin 22 Nov 19 - 04:18 PM
Jack Campin 22 Nov 19 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
The Sandman 22 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
r.padgett 22 Nov 19 - 12:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 19 - 12:35 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Nov 19 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,jag 22 Nov 19 - 11:30 AM
Iains 22 Nov 19 - 10:56 AM
Jack Campin 22 Nov 19 - 10:54 AM
Howard Jones 22 Nov 19 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Peter 22 Nov 19 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 22 Nov 19 - 10:34 AM
Iains 22 Nov 19 - 10:28 AM
Vic Smith 22 Nov 19 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 22 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 22 Nov 19 - 09:32 AM
Jack Campin 22 Nov 19 - 09:22 AM
Vic Smith 22 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM
Joe G 22 Nov 19 - 07:08 AM
Vic Smith 22 Nov 19 - 06:52 AM
Joe G 21 Nov 19 - 09:07 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 08:57 PM
Joe G 21 Nov 19 - 08:56 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 08:53 PM
Joe G 21 Nov 19 - 08:43 PM
Joe G 21 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 19 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM
Backwoodsman 21 Nov 19 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 21 Nov 19 - 04:43 PM
Raggytash 21 Nov 19 - 04:22 PM
Vic Smith 21 Nov 19 - 02:54 PM
r.padgett 21 Nov 19 - 02:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Nov 19 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 21 Nov 19 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Observer 21 Nov 19 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Observer 21 Nov 19 - 01:08 PM
Iains 21 Nov 19 - 12:56 PM
Vic Smith 21 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM
Raggytash 21 Nov 19 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Observer 21 Nov 19 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,patriot 21 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

Kenny Hadden. Aberdeen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:21 PM

Hello Jim, I see you are back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:19 PM

And who are you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:07 PM

"In case you hadn't noticed, Irish music is played here too, and my comparison was with the Irish music scene in the UK."
You don't know anything about the Irish music scene in the UK, and certainly not currently in Ireland, so how can you make a comparison ?
"My only experience of the music scene in Ireland was 30 years ago,"
Exactly. See above.
"Ireland doesn't have "music buffs", they have musicians who play traditional music.
You were the one who introduced the label.

"There have been books of Irish polkas in the past"
Please list them [ plural ].
" but who would use them now? Would anybody in an Irish session these days point a newcomer to one as a standard reference?"
No. They don't need to.
The discussion is about "folk music in the UK". Now certainly, politically, a geographic part of Ireland is in the UK, so if you know about the current situation of "the folk scene" there, please feel free to enlighten us. Nobody so far has done in about 1600 posts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:18 PM

the Irish setup where everybody takes O'Neill as the bible and nothing ever gets formally added to it.
Now there speaks someone with no knowledge whatsoever about the current traditional music scene in Ireland.


My only experience of the music scene in Ireland was 30 years ago, which is why I wasn't talking about it.

There are any amount of tune collections in Ireland these days, the difference is that Irish musicians learn the tunes at home, and don't take them to the session.

Or they use YouTube and TheSession. If they're learning at home how could you tell? But the role of those smallish not-trying-to-be-canonical collections is a BIG difference. You can't go to a Scottish tune session with a lot of older players in Edinburgh and NOT know what sources they've got their tunes from. (Younger players are less predictable).

Ireland doesn't have "music buffs", they have musicians who play traditional music

Why would anybody care which label was used?

The OP was asking about the UK.

In case you hadn't noticed, Irish music is played here too, and my comparison was with the Irish music scene in the UK.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 03:30 PM

There have been books of Irish polkas in the past but who would use them now? Would anybody in an Irish session these days point a newcomer to one as a standard reference? Read what I actually wrote.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM

Part of Ireland is in the UK so it isn't really true that the thread has nothing to do with Ireland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM

ha ha jack campin, so why are there no polkas in o neills, i dont see or hear anyone playing the music of sliabh luchra talking about o neills why? cos theres no feckin polkas and very few slides in the book jack campin presumably lives in cloud cuckoo land, hey jack, there are no highlands either so what do they do in donegal? look for the missing page


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM

"'the Irish setup where everybody takes O'Neill as the bible and nothing ever gets formally added to it. '
Now there speaks someone with no knowledge whatsoever about the current traditional music scene in Ireland.
There are any amount of tune collections in Ireland these days, the difference is that Irish musicians learn the tunes at home, and don't take them to the session.
"For the most part Irish music buffs will say they learned a tune (if it's not in O'Neill) orally ..."   Ireland doesn't have "music buffs", they have musicians who play traditional music, thousands of them. "O'Neills 1001" is actually fairly irrelevant as a reference book these days, the settings within certainly so.
Anyway - the title of this thread is : "The current state of folk music in UK" - nothing whatsoever to do with Ireland. The OP was asking about the UK.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 12:36 PM

Yes well folk song participation has to start somewhere and it is true that earlier in life you have exposure to both the more chance of playing and singing later on in life

Not sure if school choirs and listening to folk music there is still done ~or whether opportunities exist at schools or church type events to learn ukulele, whistle or songs collectively anymore but certainly I could be a good idea!!

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 12:35 PM

I think folkclubs have had the same kind of challenges as football.

In the 60's and 70's - it was a male preserve. men crowded onto the terraces after a couple of celebratory drink, and in the crush pissed up the back ofeach others legs.

A combination of disasters like Ibrox, and Hillsboro - plus perhaps hooliganism not making it safe for a family day out dictated there had to change.

I suppose it would be nice if there were thousands of people devoted to the old songs and unaccompanied singing - but the vast majority of people who went to folk clubs went because it was a good night out. the humour was more adult than Rolf harris and Val Doonican - and there were interesting artistes.

It was very different from the scene we read about in the States - where people went to night clubs like the gate of horn, The Blue Angel and Cafe Wah to hear Josh White, odetta, alongside sophisyicated comedians like Mort Sahl and Lenny Bruce.

Maybe we need to learn a little from abroad, look at the way they go on. I think ,aybe the answer to Jim's anguish, is something the Spanish Tableaux - where people do go for the specific reason of encountering etnic music.

How we present what the rest of us think of as folk music needs to be a different kind of venue. Somewhere without the wet lettuce image of family entertainment, but sophisticated enough to offer somthing make peole put down their phones.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 11:44 AM

”the MC handed out song-books to the attendees, and then spent the evening telling them which songs they were going to sing, and leading the community singing."

What's the problem with that if it's what some people want to do? If it's not the way people think 'folk music' should be don't regard it as folk music. Maybe wonder why people were doing that rather that participating in what you think 'folk music' is on that evening.”

Absolutely nothing where the regulars are concerned, I guess. But that kind of rigid organisation isn’t for me - so I exercised my right to choose and never went back. Seems reasonable, n’est-ce pas?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 11:30 AM

"the MC handed out song-books to the attendees, and then spent the evening telling them which songs they were going to sing, and leading the community singing." What's the problem with that if it's what some people want to do? If it's not the way people think 'folk music' should be don't regard it as folk music. Maybe wonder why people were doing that rather that participating in what you think 'folk music' is on that evening.

Ditto pub tunes sessions with a limited repertoire. If the landord is happy, the other customers don't mind (or even like it) simply put it outside the scope of your perception of a tunes session. It's quite nice to be able to go out and play tunes with some others in the local community and stand a chance of playing for most of the evening. And to go somewhere else on another evening for something more fluid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:56 AM

@Nick Dow. Difficult to answer. I know I will still be male but I cannot answer for the rest of humanity.

But Timothy Leary said over 50 years ago:
"Turn on, tune in, drop out"
and:The Digital Revolution and Adolescent Brain Evolution

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3432415/

......... the main findings to emerge from the research process found that new media technologies within the home are leading to increased social isolation and a privatisation of people’s lives within the household.

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/sites/default/files/assets/document/SiobhanMcGrath.pdf

If social isolation is to become the norm, "the future could be interesting" in the Chinese sense of the phrase
A bit of an extreme view but perhaps this is a moment in time and things will change again, for nothing is static.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:54 AM

Irish setup where everybody takes O'Neill as the bible and nothing ever gets formally added to it.
That statement is utterly ridiculous Jack.


Well, what DOES the Irish scene have that's comparable to the mountainous accumulation of small tunebooks I was talking about?

For the most part Irish music buffs will say they learned a tune (if it's not in O'Neill) orally or they got it off the Internet. Where does it work differently?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:41 AM

I think it's more that young people now socialise in different ways. My other passion is climbing, and when I was young the best way to meet other climbers was to join a club, and you then benefited from the experience of older members. Now young people avoid clubs, which they perceive as being rule-bound and full of old people, and meet up at climbing walls and on-line. I'm sure it is the same with folk, I see plenty of young people getting involved in sessions, bands and festivals but they don't seem to be interested in my generation's folk clubs, probably because they see them as full of old people who won't like they way they interpret the music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:38 AM

My own opinion is that the weekly Folk Club event will slowly vanish, the Festivals will increase, and there will be more events like the Soundpost Festival (Fay Heald Bryony Griffith) and we will see more informal song/tune sessions in pubs to encourage the beginners.
That is certainly the direction that the folk scene seems to be moving in at the moment. There are a handful of successful high profile clubs that may perpetuate the format but most will either folk or morph into less formal events.

At its height the folk club gave an environment where you could go as a "punter" to be entertained but would still feel connected with the performers in a way that you don't in a formal concert. This brings people on to consider performing, or participating on the organisational side which has been the strength of the movement for the past half century.

The problem with the session / singaround type of event is that it is a place to go once you feel that you can sing or play and can be intimidating to somebody who is still at the stage where they just wants to listen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:34 AM

Thanks Vic some good points, and Iians, don't stop there! What do you believe will be the result of the transitioning?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:28 AM

There was once a time the local pub was a focal point, initiating such pastimes as morris dancing or, in the case of the cricketers arms, Wisborough Green, the ignoble art of lawnmower racing. On slack days the landlord tolerated folk singers, who were escaping from cold draughty houses to nick some heat off mine host's blazing open fires. Now the price of booze, breathalyzer, closure of pubs, central heated homes etc etc conspire to inhibit the gatherings of the people unless strongly motivated. This obviously had an impact on the club's existence and popularity. Progress probably arrested the folk revival but can you gauge the state of the genre just in terms of club numbers(which in itself is notoriously difficult to determine with any accuracy)
   A Noson Lawen, cèilidh,Troyl all preceded folk clubs and were originally gathering at people's houses and later village halls or their equivalents. The singing had to take its turn among the dancing and storytelling. For a purist these gatherings were the real McCoy and folk clubs a poor plastic impersonation. Now another transition is occurring, but flux is the way of the world, no matter how much Canutes decry it. Far better to accept that it is not dying, merely transitioning.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 10:20 AM

Nick wrote: -
Some of us will have gone to the great sing around in the sky, others will not feel like running weekly or even monthly Folk Clubs.
Well, a lot of us had done our share and we have been saying for a while that we need a lot a new blood on the organisation side but it is not coming through in the numbers that there were 30/40 years ago.
This is not just a folk music phoenomenon, Nick, it is a societal thing. There is an annual event at Lewes Town Hall called the Societies Fair where every local organisation, political, environmental, charitable, musical, artistic, cultural etc. are gathered together for the day. It is really encouraging to see that so many things happen in a small town but a couple of years ago when I was there the local folkie organisers promoting our festival and folk clubs, I took time to go round the stall holders networking with them, I found that nearly all the organisers were in their 60s or 70s and I frequently heard comments like, 'I shouldn't be doing this anymore, but I can't anyone younger to take over'.
It is one of the ways that society and communities have changed. If you try to examine the reasons for this, you will find they are complex. Employment is less secure and more demanding on people's time and energy. Just think how the conduct of General Elections have changed, Local hustings and candidate meetings used to be at the core of them - now it's all advertising, social media, radio and TV debates. This is just skimming the surface of the way we live has evolved.
All we can say it that compared with similar minority musics folk music is not doing so badly. In the 1960s there was probably as much jazz as folk music in pubs in the Lewes/Brighton area. The impression I get today is that there must be ten folk events for every jazz one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM

I realise no-body has a crystal ball on this thread, but I sometimes wonder where the younger end of the scene will be playing and singing in ten or fifteen years time. Some of us will have gone to the great sing around in the sky, others will not feel like running weekly or even monthly Folk Clubs. My own opinion is that the weekly Folk Club event will slowly vanish, the Festivals will increase, and there will be more events like the Soundpost Festival (Fay Heald Bryony Griffith) and we will see more informal song/tune sessions in pubs to encourage the beginners. Am I correct or overly pessimistic or overly optimistic or just plain wrong?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 09:32 AM

'the Irish setup where everybody takes O'Neill as the bible and nothing ever gets formally added to it. '

That statement is utterly ridiculous Jack.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 09:22 AM

Some time ago I went to a club in a small town twelve or so miles from my home. I was somewhat perplexed when the MC handed out song-books to the attendees, and then spent the evening telling them which songs they were going to sing, and leading the community singing.

That's the American "Rise Up Singing" model. Somebody here has had a certain amount of input into it...

There is something like it for instrumental tunes in Edinburgh, where an educational organization, and one of its members off his own bat, have been assembling books of accessible tunes for about 30 years. This has had a few unanticipated consequences, mostly negative.

- the repertoire gets standardized and accumulates in bulk over the decades to a point where somebody new to the scene (whether from another place or another generation) will get intimidated out of participating. It makes the scene much more cohort-based than the Irish setup where everybody takes O'Neill as the bible and nothing ever gets formally added to it. What looks like a move to flexibility turns out to create increased rigidity.

- one session has coped by making a selection that they have pretty much memorized, but they are VERY resistant to anyone suggesting they play anything else.

- another session has decided to take the whole lot on, but that means spreading a truckload of paper out on the pub tables before they start and it takes longer for them to find a suggested tune than it does to play it.

- a separate group has made less use of paper and rarely plays from it, but the memorized material is not merely a rigid tune list, each tune is only played in one fixed set. If you have your own idea about what tune might go with another, go try it somewhere else.

Tunebooks have their place, but I wish trad music organizations would produce them on thermal printers so they'd fade to white in six months.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM

I forgot to mention that there are also three all-day workshops whilst Simon & Hilary are in town:-
SIMON MAYOR MANDOLIN WORKSHOP Saturday 23rd. November 2019 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. The Elephant & Castle.

HILARY JAMES VOICE WORKSHOP Saturday 23rd. November 2019 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. The Royal Oak.

SIMON MAYOR FIDDLE WORKSHOP Sunday 24th. November 2019 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. The Elephant & Castle.


   Joe,I hope that my last two posts are sufficiently back on task for you.
   -Vic Smith-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 07:08 AM

Ah shame you are missing the film Vic - it is wonderful. I gather it is coming out on DVD soon but I'm glad I saw it at the little cinema (with a big sound system!) In Thirsk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:52 AM

In the small town of Lewes, there are three folk music events that I would like to be at tomorrow night (23/11). Simon Mayor & Hilary James are on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, a very talented local Cajun band are playing at a pub just round the corner from there and the film about the life of one of England's greatest folk song collectors - "All My Life’s Buried Here: The Story of George Butterworth" is on the really well appointed 4-screen community cinema. To make it even more attractive, before the screening, it will be introduced by director Stewart Morgan Hajdukiewicz..... and I won't be able to be at any of them! I will be calling the dances and playing with the Sussex Pistols at the town's All Saints Arts Centre. The organisers tell us that it is a sell-out. I sometimes wish that "The current state of folk music in Lewes" was a bit less hectic so that I could go to more events.

Ah well! At least I have a couple of sessions - one a mixed song & tune session, the other an English tune session - to look forward to, though one clashes with a club in Brighton, 8 miles away, that I like to go to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 09:07 PM

Cheers Steve - we're now at 1700 posts and I really would like this thread to continue to focus on the quite remarkable music that is still being made on the UK folk scene but also how things can improve, what opportunities are perhaps being missed and how we can secure the future of the music we all love

Once again my thanks to those who have contributed with their knowledge and opinions


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:57 PM

I was not wanting at all to start a new line of enquiry. So I agree with that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:56 PM

Thanks Steve. Absolutely appreciate your viewpoint as I indicated in my post. I think we just need this to rest now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:53 PM

In no way was my post an attempt to discuss the rights and wrongs of the suspension. I went out of my way to say that this isn't my gig. One thing about this forum is the swiftness of some people to take sides and rush to judgement. Do read my post again, which was carefully composed in very measured terms, properly this time. Glad you had a good evening out, by the way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:43 PM

Steve - having said you have no desire to discuss the suspension of Jim you then post a long, not unreasonable to be fair, argument against his suspension. Can we please respect Joe's wish that this is not a subject for discussion? I recognise the irony in my statement! A moderator has the right to moderate. If people are unhappy with that then it's not like the internet is devoid of places to discuss music - though I admit this is one of the best when people use it constructively. So ease back to the subject...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM

Been out for the night enjoying folk and not so much folk music in York including a gig in the library which is an interesting new venue - wood panelling, nice acoustics and sensitive sound engineering. Lots of promise there. Then on to the Three Legged Mare to the open mic with a good mixture of performers - again a mix of folk and not folk stuff.
Anyway what I meant to say was thanks for the posts since Mudcat was resurrected.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:43 PM

Well, I have no desire to discuss the suspension of Jim. This is not my gig.   I've pleaded with Jim many times to ignore his winder-upperers, and on the whole such people should be ashamed of themselves. I would just say this (and, once again, I'm an aficionado of traditional Irish instrumental music mainly, which often makes me a bit peripheral in these threads): Jim is unique here and his depth of knowledge and his connection with a past that goes way before my time in/interest in folk music, is unique and utterly invaluable. There's nobody else here remotely like him. He needs to be here to be passing on his incredible body of knowledge. I mean, what the hell is this website supposed to be about! Like the rest of us, he has many a bee in his bonnet, but we need people like that. He might be in touch in the next few days. I'll tell him if he does for the ****th time to stop bloody rising to the bait. What a shame that so many baiters, often shallow people of far less knowledge than him, are still here, probably impatient for his return so that they can resume their silly provocations.   

Roll on Dec 1!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

@ Backwoodsman

That's fine and I can see your view, but sometimes a few of us get together and we each take something and printed words and 'teach' the others then we sing and mess about. Usually involves nibbles and alcohol, some really good times. Some folk, some blues, some 'pop', whatever we like.

On song-books and ring-binders, it just depends on the context.

It seems wrong in some contexts.... in others it's ok or even fine …


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:30 PM

Some time ago I went to a club in a small town twelve or so miles from my home. I was somewhat perplexed when the MC handed out song-books to the attendees, and then spent the evening telling them which songs they were going to sing, and leading the community singing.

I never went back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:43 PM

I believe there is an article in the journal about Family Songbooks. They are used as a way to preserve songs for the future generations.
Old Bill House of Beaminster made his own song book when I recorded his songs, and his daughter in law stitched the pages into the cover. His son Norman used the book to aid his memory. He took it to a sing around where he was ridiculed for using it by some idiot. He went home and never sang again in public.
Much the same as Raggy, my wife has all her family songs written out in a small note book in her very best handwriting (which is much better than mine) and considering she is the first in the (Gypsy) family ever to have learned to read and write, it is a keepsake. She gets the book out when she sings, and then sings with her eyes shut.
I realise Family Songbooks are not really the point but it will open up the discussion a bit I hope.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:22 PM

I am sad to say my good lady feels she needs a crib sheet. She doesn't, but it acts as a crutch for her. she rarely if ever looks at it.

In her defence she didn't start singing until quite late in life and didn't as Iains suggested earlier learn songs the 'hard' way.

Having said that on Tuesday night she sang three songs and stopped the bar entirely with two of them.

Personally I don't use them, quite honestly I do not like them and I really dislike it when people 'read from them'

However, I have a dilemma, do I tolerate them or upset my good lady.

No contest !!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 02:54 PM

Observer -
Unfortunately Vic I have seen it on stage at both concerts and at one rather weird festival

In the context of folk clubs, I don't think I ever have seen a guest performer using crib sheets. In 50 years of running and usually compering weekly clubs. I don't think that I ever did unless you count this occasion.

Jez Lowe was the guest and in the middle of his usual excellent performance he told the audience that in the following week he had to go into the studio to record a song for one of the new Radio Ballads. He had never sung it in public before and he really wanted to gauge the audience reaction to it. He thought he had the words off but would we mind if he put the words on a chair next to where he was performing. the comments from the audience suggested that they would be pleased to hear his new song. He did glance down at the paper once when he was singing but there was no pause in her performance. The song was very well received and Jez made a point of thanking the audience for helping him out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 02:19 PM

Yes memory can play tricks and I find I need to get as many club visits as possible to sing and remember the words ~ Jim Potter is now 89 and does use an aide memoire ~ and good on him too

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:32 PM

Yes I saw Nick's performance, when I finally found the venue, the night before last. very creditable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:11 PM

I've just got back from touring. To answer Steve's question I don't think I saw one single singer use a 'prompt' electronic or otherwise.
I am in two minds about the use of words. Half of me realises that with age, memory fails, the other half says that it's lack of practice, or sheer laziness.
A part of the job of singing is training both voice and memory, much in the same way as an actor. I have been training my memory for 50 years, and to this day I can still recite scripts I learnt as a child, and songs I have never sung. I could probably recite most of Jake Thackray's lyrics. Well hooray for me! I'm supposed to remember the chuffing words because I'm a paid singer. If you are a 'hobby' singer and your memory is failing due to age, and you have been supporting Folk Clubs all of your life, then by all means use a 'prompt'. Anybody else, make the effort to learn the words and see how you get on. In my book it shows respect for your material and your audience. You might surprise yourself!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:11 PM

A "Flok Club" - now there's a thing - should of course be Folk Club, apologies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:08 PM

Unfortunately Vic I have seen it on stage at both concerts and at one rather weird festival - so not just at sessions and singarounds.

Worst offender by miles one person I have seen with one song who has been using a tablet for 12 years, on stage, in a flok club setting and at a singaround.

As long as you use your "prompt" you'll never learn the f**king song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:56 PM

Crib sheets and music stands.
Could it be that pre computer/internet days if you wanted the lyrics to a song you had to find a book of words, or carefully listen while busy scribbling. Having gone through that intensive effort the average person had largely learnt the piece. Today the same thing can be accomplished with a few clicks and the effort required is minimal, likewise the retention. I do not offer that as an excuse, just a possible explanation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM

Observer -
Today ringbinders, tablets, phones used with the reasoning/excuse of "Oh I only use it as a prompt" - yet time after time after time they sing the same bloody song and yet still they need the "prompt", they still sing to the room head down nose jammed in the ringbinder, tablet, phone.
I see a distinction between a free admission gathering such as a singaround or mixed session where in some cases it might be permissible - occasionally they are just a fairly closed group of friends anyway - and a paid admission event. I really don't want to pay money to hear someone read a song that they have not learned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:33 PM

Kenny, in answer to your question I have visited clubs in Devon, Cornwall, Essex, North Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, South East Lancashire, Greater Manchester and North Wales in the past 4 or 5 years. This together with reading posts from people in other parts of the country would lead me to believe my post was valid.
Cheers
Raggytash


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:28 PM

Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 05:55 PM


My observation over a similar timespan has been the exact opposite.

Bygone days very few ringbinders or prompts, if anyone wanted to entertain the company they took the trouble to actually learn what they wanted to sing.

Today ringbinders, tablets, phones used with the reasoning/excuse of "Oh I only use it as a prompt" - yet time after time after time they sing the same bloody song and yet still they need the "prompt", they still sing to the room head down nose jammed in the ringbinder, tablet, phone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM

Ewan MacColl was one influence among many in the early revival. However, talking about him has little purpose as we approach the third decade bof the 21st century.
Where are we TODAY- we can now ignore Jim Carroll & his jaundiced views- he's opted out of this discussion anyway- I thought Tory politicians were an arrogant bunch until I read his unpleasant and cockeyed opinions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM

This has become a thread where one sided insults have now replaced intelligent argument
I am sick to the stomach at the way one of Englands finest (dead) source singers has been treated, first by the posters here and now by a moderator who has banned opening a thread about him
None of you has offered a decent argument - not one, you have distrted what I have said and now you are openly insulting me
This forum has become a disgrace
I have offered my resignation so you might say you've wwon
Congratulations fellers
Sadly
Jim Carroll
    Mr. Carroll, this is to notify you that you are suspended from Mudcat until December 1, 2019. At that time you may email me or Max Spiegel and request reinstatement.
    Your contentious behavior has gone on for years, and it must be brought to a stop.
    I'm sorry it has come to this.

    -Joe Offer, Music Editor, The Mudcat Cafe-

    And no, I will not allow public discussion of this suspension.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM

I have just been told Walter Pardon will no longer allowd to be discussed for a while so you're safe lads
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 7 December 9:49 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.