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The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM
GUEST 29 Oct 19 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Brian Peters 29 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 08:48 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 08:38 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 08:06 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 07:43 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive) 29 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 05:55 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 04:51 AM
The Sandman 29 Oct 19 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM
The Sandman 29 Oct 19 - 03:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 05:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 04:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 03:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM
Raggytash 28 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 03:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM
Jeri 28 Oct 19 - 02:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Oct 19 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 12:00 PM

According to the Southern Poverty Law Centre, the far right in the US is also taking to 'folk song'.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/09/alt-right’s-new-soundtrack-hate


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM

Just come across this extremely incomplete of Irish Traveller songs on Facebook
It's been posted by a Traveller woman and doesn't even begin to scratch the surface, but it's indicative of the number of songs contributed by Travellers
Jim

Barbary Allen Andy Cash
Mowing The Hay Andy Cash
The Half Crown Andy Cash
Marie (Maureen) From Gippursland Bill Bryan
The Factory Girl Bill Cassidy
Pretty Polly (false night upon the road / Outlandish knight) Bill Cassidy
Enniscorthy Fair Bill Cassidy
Sam Cooper Bill Cassidy
Biscayo Bill Cassidy
The Sea Captain Jean “Suace” Driscoll
Constant Farmer’s Son Josie Connors
Lady In Her Father’s Garden Mary Cash
I’ve Buried Three Husbands Already Mary Delaney
Green Grows The Laurel Mary Delaney
The Kilkenny Louse House Mary Delaney
Phoenix Island Mary Delaney
Navvy Shoes Mary Delaney
New Ross Town Mary Delaney
What Will We Do When We Have No Money? Mary Delaney
Donnelly Mary Delaney
Town Of Linsborough Mary Delaney
Charming Blue Eyes Mary Mary Delaney
If Ever You Go To Killkenny Mary Delaney
Fourteen Last Sunday Mary Delaney
Peter Thunderbolt Mary Delaney
In Charlestown There Lived A Lass Mary Delaney
What Put The Blood? (Child 013) (Edward) Mary Delaney
My Brother Built Me A Bouncy Bower Mary Delaney nee riley
Selling The Ballards Mikeen McCarthy
Malone (The Half Crown) Mikeen McCarthy
Finn MacCool And The Two-Headed Giant Mikeen McCarthy
Dingle Puck Goat Mikeen McCarthy
One Fine Summer Morning Mikeen McCarthy
Early In The Month Of Spring Mikeen McCarthy
Go To The Water Mikeen McCarthy
Flowery Nolan Mikeen McCarthy
The Blind Beggar******** Paddy Reilly
Maid Of Aughrim Peggy Delaney
There Is An Alehouse Pop’s Johhny Connors
Gum Shellac Pop’s Johhny Connors
Poor Old Man Pop’s Johhny Connors
John Mitchel Pop’s’ Johnny Connors
Rambling Candyman Rich’ Johnny Connors
Appleby Fair Rich’ Johnny Connors
Charlestown Town (Bottany Bay) Irish Travelers
Come All you Loyal Travellers
Queer Bungary ady
Blind Beggar
William Scallon
The Banks of Newfoundland
The Banks of the Nile
The Boys of Barr na Shráide
Coolhesta’s Glory (on the bridge of Graig’)
The Factory Girl T1S1-01
The Fair of Ross T1S1-01
The Green Fields of America T1S2-01
Killaloe Town T1S2-01
Willy Leonard T1S2-01 Willie O’Connors
Devil in the pisspot, The Crabfish
Mickey Connors, Wexford johnny barnes mary mcgras Mary McGrath
As I went out walking one morning in May Mary McGrath
Donnybrook fair Mickey Connors
Ellen Brown Mary McGrath
William Scallion William Scanlon
Willie leonard – Lakes of Coolfin Winnie O’Donnell,
Bernie Reilly’s Cant Song Bernie Reilly, Meath
False Labmkin (Lancombe)The Lord and His lady John Reilly Jnr,
I wrote to you Nelly
John Reilly – As i went out a walking down by a riverside John Reilly Snr, Roscommon
Lady Margret Martin McDonagh, Roscommon
Tricolour house every rose grows merry and fine Mary McDonagh, Leitrim
Come all you young rebeles
I am a true born Irish man a traveller am I
I Wish I lived in Carrickfergus
Sweet William Kitty Cassidy –
Jaglin the Cobbler
The Trees they grow High – Long Growing
Paul and nancy hogan Mary Connors
The lovely banks of lee Mary Connors
Come all ye loyal lovers Mary Connors
I wish I was in New Ross (let the wind blow high or low – the Irish girl)
The blind man he can see (2) Mary Connors with chorus
Young kate from ballinamore Paddy Doran
Where are you going, my pretty maid Paddy Doran
Dungarvan Paddy Doran
The black velvet band Paddy Doran
Down by blackwaterside Paddy Doran
Seven little gipsies Paddy Doran
Three jolly sportsmen Paddy Doran
The dark-eyed gipsies Christy Purcell
The tree in the bog Christy Purcell
Sweet athy Christy Purcell
The lodging house at Carrick-on-Suir Christy Purcell
William Scanlon Christy Purcell
The pride of Inishmore Christy Purcell
The bandy-legged mule Christy Purcell
The fair at spansil hill Christy Purcell
Dingle puck goat Christy Purcell
Puck fair Christy Purcell
WHAT BROUGHT THE BLOOD (Edward) Mary Connors with chorus
THE BLIND MAN HE CAN SEE Mary Connors with chorus
THE LITTLE BALL OF YARN*********** Winnie Ryan
THE COTTAGE OUTSIDE MAROO Lal Smith
LONDONDERRY TO THE COAST OF KERRY Winnie Ryan
JULIA DONOHOE Winnie Ryan
I AM A POOR GIRL MY LIFE IS SAD – Blackbird******** Winnie Ryan
THE GARDEN WHERE THE IRISH PRATIES GROW Winnie Ryan
YOU RAMBLING BOYS OF PLEASURE******* – van diemans land Lal Smith
GOING TO MASS LAST SUNDAY*********** Winnie Ryan
I AM A MAID THAT’S DEEP IN LOVE******** Lal Smith
THE THRASHING MACHINE Annie O’Neil
THE ROAD TO KILLALOE Lal Smith
WHO’S THAT KNOCKING AT MY BEDROOM WINDOW – Grey Cock********
DUBLIN CITY
Doran
WHEN I WAS IN HORSEBACK – sailor cut down in his prime Mary Doran
OXFORD CITY Mary Doran
THE COUNTY TYRONE******** Lal Smith
Lullaby: HUSH LITTLE BABY******* Winnie Ryan
THE GALTEE FARMER Lal Smith
DEAR OLD KERRY Lal Smith


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM

"Always thought that it was Scottish and Cowdenknowes,"
It is Scottish, it is rare to get it from a source singer and even rarer to get it from a singer from Northern Ireland
I think most of us were introduced to it by MacColl's singing _ I was anyway   
I used the spelling given in 'British Ballads from Maine' - I am aware that it is probably incorrect
The Maine collection includes many other obviously Scots ballads taken from Irish singers - the 'The Two Magicians' for instance
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 11:04 AM

The Broom of Cowden Knowes" - Is one of Ireland's rarest Child Ballads???

Always thought that it was Scottish and Cowdenknowes, all one word, named after the farm/estate just south of Earlston in the Scottish Borders.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM

Thanks Brian - I hope that helps clear the foetid atmosphere that has been allowed to enter this discussion
The fact that the Travellers Vic mentions are dead rather makes the point that they were't hyped but have ben around for far longer than the revival
I only hope that someone will get around to putting up Peter Hall's magnificent collection on line one day - the CD Rom of Scots Travellers that Musical Traditions issued some time ago ought to have been enough to prove the Travellers worth as song carriers

We're hoping that Limerick Uni will put up our Irish Traveller collection, not just for the songs but also for the massed of information on how they operated in a living Tradition and passed between the settled and Travelling communities
Ironically, the Travellers in Ireland played a great part in putting their orally learned songs into print via their prominent involvement in the 'ballad-selling' trade

The Folk enthusiasts should have learned what might be lost from Gavin Grieg's adopting this negative and dismissive attitude towards Travellers
A piper on his estate in New Deer was overlooked as a possible source for songs when Grieg was hunting for them because he was a Traveller
When the School of Scottish Studies was set up, the Traveller banged on their front door and gave them one of the few Robin Hood Ballads found in Scotland

I've been working on Irish versions of Child Ballads - one of the most interesting source singers, a Famine Refugee who fled to New England, got some of Ireland's rarest Child Ballads from itinerant fruit pickers - Queen Eleanor's Confession, Hind Horn and (unbelieveably) The Broom of Cowden Knowes.

My late friend, Tom Munnelly, was delighted at the acknowledgement to John Reilly's contribution to Bronson's 'Tunes of the Child Ballads'

"Tom Munnelly, in sheer goodwill, sent me a tape of his spectacular find of “The Maid and the Palmer” (Child no. 21), from Irish tradition"

He treasured Bronson's letter saying "your finding this rare ballad has immortalised your name in ballad scholarship"

Some people didn't need to 'Go to Specsavers to see what was before their eyes   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM

Thomas McCarthy will be in Lewes on 8th December to run a day long TRAVELLER LIFE, SONGS & STORIES WORKSHOP at the Elephant and Castle. On the previous evening he is booked to sing the songs that he learned from his family ay the Lewes Saturday Folk Club.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM

I think Nick and Mally Dow would dispute that the traveller culture is long passed as well!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM

"Not one of the ballads in Child's collection came through any Traveller source, neither did anything Sharp collected..."

In Child's case, we simply don't know - he was not a field collector, so he could not have known the provenance of all his ballads, nor would his sources necessarily have chosen to record such information.

We do know, though, that Cecil Sharp collected from traveller singers, since he gave a vivid account of a visit to a gypsy camp where he met one Betsy Holland, a young mother who presented him with "the finest and most characteristic bit of singing [he] had ever heard". You can find Sharp's photographs of her and other members of her community online at the VWML site. He also wrote of setting out to collect songs from gypsy singers in the Forest of Dean. The interest in travellers as song carriers is hardly a late 20th century affectation.

"The fad for Traveller culture (hyped up by Hamish Henderson and MacColl/Seeger) is now long past in the folk scene. There are only two active British performers I can think of who still exploit it..."

I don't know about Scotland, but some of the younger singers in England are very interested in songs collected from travellers - Emily Portman, for instance. The rendition by her group The Devil's Interval of Queen Caroline Hughes' 'The Cuckoo' is one of the best modern interpretations of any traditional song I've heard in recent years.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 09:03 AM

And I have a particular contempt for people who cry 'racist' on spurious grounds in their own self-defence. It does the anti-racist agenda no good. Indeed, a lot of current 'folk music' in the UK comes from the young alt-right and pours scorn on anti-racism and for that matter feminism of all sorts and liberalism and tolerance, picking holes in cries of 'racist' and 'Nazi'. And this stuff is often acoustic, if posted on line, written by 'ordinary people' and as much 'folk music' as stuff by MacColl and Lloyd ever was. But nobody on this thread has seemed interested in learning about this or doing anything about it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 08:48 AM

I am sorry but what he posts here is posted by the real Jim Carroll. Unless somebody is pretending to be him. He chooses to do it freely, and has to live with the impression of himself he gives. To claim this isn't what he is 'really like' seems irrational to me.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 08:42 AM

Every single one of the Travellers mentioned in Vic's post is dead.

For the current generation of folk performers, the fad is over, and Traveller culture is only one of many sources they draw on. It has no unique importance.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 08:38 AM

I'm not apologising for anything I put.

And it isn't worth the effort to request that Jim responds to what was written, and not to what wasn't. Because I don't suppose he will change his habits after all this time.

Just more evidence for me that what Jim says isn't reliable. Because what he says about me isn't.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM

Jim wrote
"Illiterate and extremely impoverished Traveller John Reilly gave us about ten big ballads, including the long-disappeared Maid and the Palmer
I know damne well, as you should, that Sheila Douglas, Timothy Neat - and the School of Scottish Studies as a whole are proud of the contribution made by Travelers - The Journal 'Scottish Studies' is full of articles on and examples of Traveller culture
Books like those by Betsy Whyte, Sheila Stewart, Willie McPhee, Duncan Williamson and those on Jeannie Robertson by Gower and Porter are filling shelves on their contribution to Scots culture.

All the books that Jim refers to are on my shelves and I consult them frequently. All the people that he names are in my opinion, the heroic figures of our music. I would not detract a single name from his list but would want to add all their recordings which speak for themselves; and I would add Charlotte Higgins, Jane Turriff, Lizzie Higgins, Stanley Robertson.... I could go on but I would just like to add that I have met all the Scots listed by Jim and by myelf and feel that my life has been enriched by these meetings.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 08:06 AM

Thank you for encouraging personal attacks by adding your own Vic - much appreciated
For your information - Pat and I met and married in the seventies and have worked together for the near half century we have shared

Can I suggest than anybody genuinely interested in folk song ignores these personal attacks now involving my family life in the hope that a mod deletes them rather than closing down this discussion
This reall doed bring 'em out of their closets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM

Pseudonymous wrote:-
God help his wife, I have often thought, if he is remotely like this at home.
Rather a cruel and uncalled for comment, I would have thought.
The persona that Jim portrays on Mudcat is intensely irritating and I have crossed swords with him on numerous occasions as have many people here. We all know the aspects of his posts that we find utterly frustrating and it is difficult to know why he does it. It must give him some sort of perverse pleasure.
However, to assume that the particular type of character that he displays here aligns with the actual Jim Carroll shows simplistic thinking.
I have never met Jim, probably never will, but I do know that outside of Mudcat and in my communications with him by email and by private message, I find a man that is polite and entirely generous with information that he has gained and by sharing aspects of his vast personal archive.
Neither have I met Pat but I do know that they have worked together on a huge number of projects together in song, lore and story collecting, in preparing and releasing some of this material, radio programmes, archiving, presentations at academic conferences, books, articles, etc. This record suggests that they are a good team.
I don't know anything about their relationship, but I do know that what I have quoted at the beginning of this post, I find more hurtful than anything Jim has ever written. I also know that the pair of them have devoted years of their lives - unpaid to various aspects of the furtherance of the study of folk song, particularly amongst the travelling community and that we owe them a debt of gratitude.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 07:52 AM

" poaching/thieving/foraging "
Interesting summing of of tinsmiths, newsdealers and rural agricultural workers who eventually took to scrap metal salvaging, house clearance, tarmacking and now fancy drive designing - strait from the pages of a Ukip pamphlet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 07:43 AM

"And none of his print sources mention Travellers at all."
Nor does anyty of them go mention farmers or fishermen or any particular social group
The 'fad' as you so intelligently put it' for Travelers goes back to the early Irish collectors y who filled notebooks from singers and storytellers like The like Delargy who filled notebooks from singers and storytellers like The Sherlock Family and made a point of notint their importance as song and tale carriers
English collectors like Charlotte Burne and Alice Gillinton were taking songs down from Travellers
One of the earliest albums by Topic was of The Willet Family sweet fuck all to do with macColl, Henderson (or anybody else you care to take a pop at)
If MacColl Henderson et al drew attention to the importance of Travellers as tradition carriers, they should be credited for drawing attention to an important aspect of a usually despised social group - not accused of "hyping" anything up
I'd be interested to know if you count Pat and my thirty years of work with Travellers, or that valuable stuff turned up by Mike Yates, is part of your "hyping up"
Illiterate and extremely impoverished Traveller John Reilly gave us about ten big ballads, including the long-disappeared Maid and the Palmer
I know damne well, as you should, that Sheila Douglas, Timothy Neat - and the School of Scottish Studies as a whole are proud of the contribution made by Travelers - The Journal 'Scottish Studies' is full of articles on and examples of Traveller culture
Books like those by Betsy Whyte, Sheila Stewart, Willie McPhee, Duncan Williamson and those on Jeannie Robertson by Gower and Porter are filling shelves on their contribution to Scots culture
I suggest a quick trip to 'Kist o' Riches' might benefit those who doubt this   

Thravellers may be of no interest to those folkies to whom folk "isn't really their thing", but to those of us who are involved. I casn assure everybody - they are major contributors to both our pleasure and our knowledge

I'm really not sure what is going on here

"God help his wife, I have often thought, if he is remotely like this at home. "
Can this abuse attempt to involve my home life be deleted please - it is personally offensive and totally uncalled for
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM

But communicating songs didn't come into it. They were not like the Gypsy professional musician caste of eastern Europe.

One exception, the itinerant tailors of western Ireland described by David Thomson in "People of the Sea" - but nobody would call them "Travellers" - they were ethnically different and had homes to go to.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

My thinking is that Travellers - of Irish, Scottish or other background - had to communicate with the rest of society to make a living, unless they lived by poaching/thieving/foraging etc as unfortunately reputed. Otherwise, how did they live?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 07:07 AM

Not one of the ballads in Child's collection came through any Traveller source
Nobody knows where all Child's ballads came from - he was largely working from print despite his despising the broadsides


And none of his print sources mention Travellers at all.


We know that in the twentieth century they were a major source in Scotland

They were a minor source. By an enormous margin, most of what people sing or play now has never been transmitted through them.


There is no reason why that shouldn't always have been the case

There is not a flicker of reason to believe that. Travellers were even more marginal in past eras, with less opportunity to communicate with the rest of society.

The fad for Traveller culture (hyped up by Hamish Henderson and MacColl/Seeger) is now long past in the folk scene. There are only two active British performers I can think of who still exploit it, Thomas McCarthy and Sam Lee. Nobody in Scotland does.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 06:58 AM

Sorry to sum up, I would prefer to discuss the state of folk music in the UK with somebody with recent experience, and ideally with some experience and knowledge of music per se and without this load of baggage. And I get a bit fed up of the few who pussy foot around him, and appear to feel guilty about hurting his feelings, to be honest.

God help his wife, I have often thought, if he is remotely like this at home. Are there folk songs on such topics?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM

Since artists have been introduced to keep this thread running I would suggest that GOYA is the message for folks on here that don't support acoustic music venues and DEGAS is my opinion of the folk who just talk about it and don't really support "folk / acoustic" venues.

Long Live acronyms!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM

For me Jim's comments on Shakespeare suggest that he has, despite his long associations with the political left (a history which I to some degree share, though I am younger and was never a communist), never come to any kind of critical analysis of the way that particular playwright has come to be lionised as a 'great' of British history. This is about various things including patriotism, selective readings of his plays, and what might crudely be described as British Cultural Imperialism.

I think he is now - even perhaps subconsciously - setting out to portray himself as culturally sophisticated and discerning because this backs up his claim (which is relevant to the credibility of his claims to be the Big I Am relating to the current state of folk music in the UK) to be qualified in terms of bourgeois art appreciation to pontificate on which folk songs are 'great art' as produced by the lower orders as opposed to 'crap' produced by men of middling rank who got paid for it (leaving out Irish Travellers who got paid for it, who don't count as producing crap, apparently).

And yes, he contradicts himself all the time, and his famous definition of folk is a cumbersome and unwieldy composite. This relates to several things including a) his insistence on including MacColl within it and b) political bias and c) the element of subjective 'aesthetic' judgment which is the main basis for his decisions about what songs are and are not folk music. If he likes them they are, if not, not.

What I first noticed about this Jim Carroll who I first encountered through these threads, having never heard of him before, was his aggression and rudeness, his frequent use of metaphors relating to violence and toilets and such like, coupled with a tendency to go into sorry for himself mode when anybody really stood up to what looks very much like bullying. I speak as somebody who resigned from below the line as a result of insults heaped by this man.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM

Another partly-folk event spotted on FB which isn't a folk club. "Lord Bateman" would be a perfectly appropriate song for the context.

18 hours of music for 18 days of the Lebanese revolution

In solidarity with the joyful revolution bubbling across Lebanon, I will be playing an 18 hour concert at my home this coming Sunday to celebrate 18 days of the revolution.

The concert will start at 6 am and end at midnight. I will be playing electric guitar/electronics and curating the day.

I would like to invite all my fellow musicians, performers and artists (as well as non-musicians, non-performers and non-artists) to join us for this 18 hour long celebration.

This is a small gesture of support to help fuel protestors on the streets of Lebanon and support them in bringing about change in a country in desperate need for change.


This is in Edinburgh, I'll provide more details for anyone who messages me.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 06:11 AM

I am serious, Jim. On everything mentioned you have said you prefer the old to the new. It does not get us anywhere but helps me to understand where you are coming from. There is no better or worse as far as I am concerned and has sweet FA to do with the current state of folk so, as you are fond of saying, I think we are done with that.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 05:55 AM

"Well, the consensus seems to be, that we don't agree what folk music is "
This thread and those similar represent a tiny handful of posters in a centuries old music which has been clearly identified and documented for over 100 years
That fact that some pf ' we few. we few, we band of brothers' chooses not to accept the work of over a century and, apparently, is not prepared to pull a book off the shelf to prove or disprove that work, doesn't amount to a hill of beans Al
Those who can't define folk don't want to - probably because it suits them that it goes unrecognised

Old versus new - are you serious Dave - ?
I seriously hope not
As always, the proof is in the pudding
Once you drag an art-form down to that level you trivialise it beyond all discussion
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM

Well, the consensus seems to be, that we don't agree what folk music is - so we don't agree about the present, and thus the future is totally unfathomable.

nuff said , really.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM

I see the pattern emerging here. Renoir is better tnan Banksie. Dickens is better than Groening. Pardon is better than Sheeran. Old is better than new. Fine. Everyone to their own. As long as you do not insist that your tastes are better than anyone elses, there is no argument. Moving back to the state of folk in the UK...

Yes, Dick. There are a number of singer/songwriters who are a bit samey. On the other hand there are those who write about many things other than relationships. I think the best ones do, as with everything else, get to the top. This is where the folk world differs from pop. They get there by being good, not through marketing. There are a number of pop artists who are exceptionally good too but public exposure can have a much greater bearing in pop than it does in folk. That is where folk still has, to me, the advantage over mainstream.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:51 AM

"Humbug..."
I prefer Maltesers with a figure like meine
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:29 AM

Well said Jim,


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:15 AM

Renoir of course - Banksie works on the instantaneous impact principle - you see everything first time around with him, you see something new everything you visit the masters (if they are good and if you put the work in)
There are a series of war sketches by Goya - each tome I see them is like being punched in the face
That goes beyond simple enjoyment
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

"Anybody who just listens to folk songs for the music is just chewing the wrapping and throwing the sweet away

Humbug...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

Ok, Jim. I will just put it down to differences between how we communicate. Out of interest. Which do you think needs more work? Renoir or Banksie?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM

"So why say you have to understand it enjoy it in the first place? "
It's the difference between watching The Simpsons and reading Dickens Dave
You enjoy both (if you have any taste) but you have to put more work into one of them
Same with any Art - you can enjoy Renoir and Banksie - one takes more work to appreciate than the other
If you take on folk song as a performer you take on an important piece of social history created by a people that have largely been considered creativeless - 'The People's Songs'
I have always enjoyed listening to them - the better they were sng the more I enjoyed them, but the songs themselves are quite interesting
I didn't bother too much how I sang them when I started until I noticed the special buzz it gave m when the songs workd - for me and for the listeners, so I worked at them, technically and getting to understand them
I can pretty well get the same level of pleasure from a song I leaned fifty years go than I do when I find a new one
I won't live long enough to do all the things I want to do with folk song now - I'm only just beginning to understand folk song and its implications
That's what I call a half decent alternative to waiting for the next episode of Holby City - it's called fulfilling yourself (and, when it comes to research) leaving something behind you when you go.
Come in - the water's lovely
Anybody who just listens to folk songs for the music is just chewing the wrapping and throwing the sweet away - folk song is words and stories, the tunes are there to provide a matrix for them to be appreciated
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 03:00 AM

It is my opinion there are quite a lot of duos trios who are very competent musically and vocally but when you examine the content of the songs, there is little social comment and neither is there very much trad material. a large proportion their repertoire is singer songwriter songs about personal relationships,this can produce an overall sameiness, lightened only by instrumental variety , to precis more concern about presentation than form
there are also one or two singer songwriters who are masters of comic genre, who are an oasis in a desert of bland folk pop


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 05:30 PM

I get to watch the great model railway challenge as consolation. :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 04:48 PM

Yeah.. we got it on the £1.99 deal..

even at that price you don't get much Rutger Hauer cameo for the money...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

Damn! It's a pay one. You know what he tight Yorkshire sods are like. I might get sent back to Lancashire.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:50 PM

You've set my nights viewing, PFR. Looks good and has the late and very lamented Rutger Hauer in it!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM

Jim - I'll be watching "Sisters Brothers" again [2 day hire from Amazon prime]
The best new Western I've enjoyed this century,
possibly one of the best films regardless of genre..

I couldn't fault it..
It has wide audience appeal..
It's both instantly entertaining, and at the same time deep with complex meaning
But a commercial flop...?????
.. I've not seen a bad review so far by anyone who has seen it...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM

Agree absolutely, Jim. So why say you have to understand it enjoy it in the first place? I am just trying to get a better understanding of what you are trying to say to avoid future misunderstandings.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM

"Two seemingly contradictory statements."
They aren't
You can look at something ant take immediate superficial pleasure from it - you enjoy it
Look at it more closely and you see more - you enjoy it more
I find, say, the ballads something you can approach from different directions and get different levels of pleasure from because you see it differently each time
I believe this is the essence of good art - there's always something else to find,
Sometimes it's in the picture or song, sometimes it's something you remembered ot has just happened in your own life and it clicks

THere's a version of the Golden Vanity abot the cabin boy who volunteers to sink the enemy ship
Theres a verse in ir which describes the French crew relaxing, when the water pours through the olles the lad has drilled in the ship

Some were playing cards and some were playing dice,
Some where standing around giving good advice

You don't have to have been to University to appreciate that wonderful image- anybody who has worked in a factory and watched the lads playing cards or chess or cribbage at dinnertime with all their work-mates standing around whispering "You shouldn't have done that" know what that's about
Our ballads and folk songs are full of things like that - you can use images like that as a singer all the time - that's not education, it's observation

Off to watch shit on tele all night
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM

DtG - bloody America misspelled "Dessert "...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM

Can't say for certain Richard, I probably had a dram or two too many in your company. It was numerous years ago and on more than one occasion.

Yourself and your good lady had a well deserved reputation for wonderful hospitality.

Trying to think logically, Cleckheaton, Saddleworth perhaps, or even Bedworth. Upon reflection Bedworth may be the festivals !!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:18 PM

What's wrong with going through a desert on a horse with no name, PFR? :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM

""I still disagree that you need to understand something to enjoy it"
I don't say you can't enjoy it - I do say the more you understand it, the more there is to enjoy, that's all
"


Me and the mrs enjoy subtitled foreign movies...

We wouldn't be entirely buggered if the translation was missing
while watching an old kung fu movie, or 1970s soft core slapstick sex comedy..

But subtitles really are vital with complex serious drama...

Having said that, I readily enjoy foreign songs where I haven't a clue what they're singing about,
but the instrumental arangement and voice convey emotion that resignates with me...

..and again, I openly acknowledge I also tend to concentrate listening to the musicality of our trad folk songs,
the words and story often just wash over me as I concentrate on the emotionality of the sound...

That can be a blessing when zoned out and suppressing hearing really rubbish lyrics
that could pop out and spoil my listening pleasure..

For instance I like Lankum,
but was listening to one of their more long winded songs yesterday,
when the lyrics just started to irritate me,
and distracted from my connection to the song and enjoyment of it...

It wasn't the subject matter that started to bore me,
it was the the quality of the writing...

Obviously this is about my own personal tastes,
I'm not a qualified know it all creative writing teacher...

But don't even get me started on a lot of 1970's rock lyrics...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:54 PM

I will say one thing, then leave this.
This is not a discussion, it's a tennis match. Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

1. Folk song is like every other artistic endeavour - you have to work at it to understand it and you have to understand it to like it - it is not superficial - good things never are

2. I don't say you can't enjoy it - I do say the more you understand it, the more there is to enjoy, that's all

There is where I, and I suspect many others, have problems with what you are saying, Jim. Two seemingly contradictory statements. Version 1 says You have to work at it understand it. You have to understand it to enjoy it. Version 2 days you don't need to understand it to enjoy it. Then when I ask you to clarify you go ballistic and accuse me of hounding you. Please make yourself clear so us thick Yorkshire twats can understand what you obviously high IQ Scouse gits are trying to say.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:47 PM

So, Raggytash, which festival was it that you encountered my caravan?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM

"I still disagree that you need to understand something to enjoy it"
I don't say you can't enjoy it - I do say the more you understand it, the more there is to enjoy, that's all
Whan I started listening to the ballads I was knocked out by the stories, when I began to learn them I began to realise there were things I'd missed
For instance, I loved Ewan singing Gil Morricwe, but when he explained one of the lines the whole thing hooked me

A husband kills a hermit boy because he believes his wife is having an affair because she is aked to meet him in the woods
She explains he is not her lover but her illegitimate son who she has exiled
She confesses:
"I once was full o' Gil Morrice as the hip is of the stone" - one of the most beutiful descriptions of pregnancy in poetry, as far as I'm concerned - in the vernacular language of the folk

Just stick your thumbnail into the thin latyer of flesh of a rose-hip and you'll see what I mean
There - I've got a lump in my throat !
Jim


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