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The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 05:02 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:52 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:48 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:39 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 19 - 03:38 PM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
Joe Offer 01 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 01 Nov 19 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 19 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Nov 19 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 09:17 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 19 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,JoeG 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 19 - 08:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 01 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Joe G 01 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Oct 19 - 09:28 PM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:02 PM

Is this folk music. We were practising the other day and now I don't know whether I am a folk person or not.

Confused. Moi. Aye

Oldish song

If it IS folk then we are a folk band round York.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 03:52 PM

Oh and while I'm on a roll our Maritime Concert at Hull Maritime Museum is on the 9th but don't bother coming as the last 2 have been packed out and we've had to turn people away as the room can only hold a 100. And this is just with local artists performing sea songs, all of the type Jim would approve.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 03:48 PM

But just to pile it on, in my immediate area, say 3 miles radius, there are 3 folk clubs and numerous sessions and singarounds and I can guarantee that 90% at least of what is performed is of that material that Jim has said he would approve, i.e., traditional, or of the type that is of the Radio Ballads, local material using traditional tunes and largely of some sort of local heritage connection. Added to that there is a local Folk Archive and a charity Folk in Hull that runs bigger events throughout the year, oh and I know the Sheffield area has 10 times this amount.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 03:39 PM

But this has been said here many many times. There's nothing new to add and nothing needs adding.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 03:38 PM

Okay, I've stayed out of this one hitherto. I've plenty more important things to do with folksong, like singing it and writing about it for publication.

When people express their opinions that's fine, we can't argue with that,
but presenting statements as facts >>>>>Until this one is sorted out, folk song will not move an inch<<<<< has to be challenged.

You have been told repeatedly that the UK folk scene has evolved/changed from the 60s when we were all young and fresh to the music and had the time to dance, play, sing, research, act to our hearts' content. Many many people here have stated fact that folk music now takes place in a wide variety of places. Technology has advanced significantly. Many people, young and old like us, are working extremely hard to promote folk music all over the country, in a wide variety of forms. One way of introducing new people to the scene is to run sessions where a wide variety of styles and genres can be included, and as long as our traditional music forms an important part of that, performed well, then it will draw in new people. This happens most days of the week where I live and I know of plenty of other places where it thrives even more.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 03:25 PM

For a long time, the Church in Ireland was not the Church of Rome"THEAT IS STILL THE CASE THERE IS A PROTESTANT CHURCH CALLED THE CHURCH OF IRELAND PLUS METHODIST AND PRESBYTERIAN AND EVEN QUAKERS.
If you check the irish constitution,Article 44 of the Constitution deals with religion. You are free to practise your religion and your freedom of conscience. The State guarantees not to endow or favour any religion and not to discriminate on the grounds of religion.Dec 24, 2018


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM

On topic
The problm when soeone writes "'I do enjoy a variety of music which goes under the label 'folk', am quite happy" I believe they need to define what they mean in relation to folk clubs
Some people are quite happy to listen to pop ot pop type songs that have lbeen labeled 'folk' somewhere or other on today's folk music scene, which brings the discussion to square one - what are we entitled to hear if we turn up at a folk club - or are we no longer allowed to choose what we hear?
Folk song cannot be the only medium to remove the meaning of it's description, but that appears to be the case
In my opinion, it is why we have lost most of our clubs and our followers
Until this one is sorted out, folk song will not move an inch
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM

The current state of folk music in UK..

Not as bad as some folks fear, not as good as some folks wish for...

But it's best not to overgeneralise from any individual point of view...

At least there is a new younger generation of folks
who will continue to care enough about it,
even if some of us don't welcome what they might do with it...


Well at least I like this recent 'collaboration'...

Lowlands


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:21 PM

I can understand that Joe but hopefully people will desist and keep on topic - thanks for being tolerant so far


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM

I don't have any problem with people referring to the past where it has a direct relevance to the topic of discussion - I imagine I will do so at some point! It's the petty arguments about specific incidents that I feel have no place here


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM

I'm tempted to close this because of the animosity that keeps popping up here. Please stay on topic.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM

Vic: Ha ha! Of course the 29th was a typo for 20th century: I owned up to these in advance! No need to search iplayer further:

Sorry if raising the past as I have seems irrelevant; it just seems that views of it permeate in a variety of ways so much discussion of the state 'folk' is in today.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM

Psuedonymous said ' For me, the sort of folk music we need is one that addresses the problems with racism, nationalism, religious hatreds and fundamentalism of various sorts, and, last but definitely not least, environmental issues.'
'I do enjoy a variety of music which goes under the label 'folk', am quite happy to live in a world where this term has varying definitions, but for me any attempts to limit or control how people sing, or even decry people making a living out of making music, there I tend to lose interest.'

I couldn't agree more!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM

And, yes Joe, you are right. This thread is about folk music but some are out to close it down. Just ignore tnem.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:54 AM

I do apologise: the last guest, was me, I forgot to sign the piece about Lloyd. And also for the typos; read the biography of Lloyd and all will become clear.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM

Come on people - arguing about things that may or may not have happened decades ago has nothing to do with the topic under discussion - if you want to discuss historical issues that have no relevance to this subject it would be far better to do so under a new thread. It might surprise you but the great majority of people here almost certainly have little interest in your arguments


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:46 AM

"or are you simply trying a bit of troublemaking by making very pointed accusations with zero to substantiate"
Now there's a description to conjure with
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:39 AM

"any more than meeting Ewan's three wives."
My having met them and been there when reminiscences on how Theatre Workshop operated has far mre relevence to your challenging the technique I was describing than does how far newr The Theatre Royal you lived
Jean Newlove was one of the main members of T.W. who helped devise some of the techniques that they used - including its relaxation methods
It is both arrogant and insulting for you dismiss something I have heard discussed, have been taught and am still using out of hand based on your living in Stratford East
The technique worked then and still does - please don't ridicule it bey comparing it to a fart - there has been far too much arrogance and insulting as there is

"Soviet propaganda"
This type of language used to attack leading figures in the revival who gave us the chance to make our music should have died when the MacCarthy witch-hunt trials were ended
Lloyd's book was, and still is inspirational and far more relevant in my opinion is the other book bearing that title
Pete Seeger narrowly escaped a jail sentence for being a "lefty"
These peopel Maccoll, Lloyd and Seeger had a perfect right to hold whatever views they chose to - none of them were politically active in any way shape or form anyway, but even if they had been so what
I met them all and found them intelligent, kindly and far mor humanistic than most people I have met
Even out of common courtesy, they ought to nbe left to rest in peace - as Peggy wrote to The Living Tradition - they're not around to speak for themselves any more
Jim Carroll
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:12 AM

Jim,

Just as I expected "hearsay".

Re your Malcolm Nixon story which you raised before on another thread it just points out how much you rely on gossip and second hand information. If you had any real knowledge of the folk scene in London at the time you would realise how laughable that accusation is. I pointed that out then. And if I remember correctly you complained many times of what I think you call "grave dancing".

Re the BBC recordings I was there that night but don't know what relevance that has any more than meeting Ewan's three wives.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM

Going back to A L Lloyd's book, which, when read for the first time long after its publication seems so plainly to have been written by a lefty in the thrall of Soviet propaganda (if not directly pointed out by the Soviets as the biography of Lloyd points out did happen).

He was hoping for a new folk music, which, because of the political stance underpinning the book, in effect meant music reflecting the sort of political movement he hoped to see emerge. That part of his dream one might share in without following his flawed analysis of the benefits of Soviet domination and the command economy.

Well, for me, the sort of folk music we need is one that addresses the problems with racism, nationalism, religious hatreds and fundamentalism of various sorts, and, last but definitely not least, environmental issues. All of which, of course, come across as middle class issues irrelevant to the needs of the white indigenous population …

I do enjoy a variety of music which goes under the label 'folk', am quite happy to live in a world where this term has varying definitions, but for me any attempts to limit or control how people sing, or even decry people making a living out of making music, there I tend to lose interest.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM

"and I don't intend to read any response that Jim Carroll posts, because too often experience them as bullying or generally belligerent in tone"
I'll tell my wife and my travller frioiends that - should make them smile
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM

Any mention of nasty Nick is a good excuse to play Chumbawamba's marvellous Dance, Idiot, Dance they

I have already linked It once on this thread but It is always worth repeating. It is the perfect response to the misappropriation of our traditions by the extreme right.

Sadly, Joe, it is still going on and Griffin's pet attack dog is still active on here, regularly using the names of other Mudcatters to spread his bile.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:59 AM

Pseudonymous wrote
....was popularised by some TV programme mid-29th century.
I have just checked and this programme is not yet available on BBC iPlayer.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM

Anyway the current moment is a very good time for folk music in my opinion as both Jim Moray and Jon Boden have just released their new CDs :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM

Some useful points there Pseudonymous and, as the OP, I have no problems in you saying that the thread title is not a perfect springboard for discussion (nothing on Mudcat is ever perfect ;-)) - it has however resulted in a long running and, in my view, mostly interesting discussion.

Like you my own interests lie far wider than the music of the folk revival and what followed in folk clubs and the like and I would see no harm in widening the debate to cover such music - as an attendee at the Musicport Festival for 16 years of its 20 years existence I have seen great examples of music from other traditions being made by musicians who have lived in this country all their lives as well as of course music made by musicians who live in the countries where such music originates. Sorry that all sounds a bit clumsy! Unlike some I welcome cross cultural experiment eg Afro Celts, E2, Imagined Village, Keetama, Vaarlens Band etc. It doesn't always work but when it does it can be extremely powerful. I consider such cross cultural music to be folk music every bit as much as an unaccompanied singer at a singaround. There of course I would differ from some here but, as has been demonstrated, we all have our own impressions of what we consider folk music to be.   

I had meant to respond earlier to your comments about the far right using acoustic or folk music to further their cause - I must admit I hadn't realised that this was still such a threat though I remember well the odious Nick Griffin and his cohorts trying to use the music for their nefarious ends. So I think the fact that other people hadn't raised the issue was more because, like me, they were not aware of it still being a significant problem rather than not being concerned. i hope I am correct on that point


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:48 AM

Sorry one or two typos, it should be border 'where' the UK ends and the Republic begins, of course.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:47 AM

With respect to the OP, my view (and I don't intend to read any response that Jim Carroll posts, because too often experience them as bullying or generally belligerent in tone) is in agreement with the thought expressed above that the discussion title might not have been the perfect springboard for discussion. Moreover, I will also add that very often the concepts we are using are in some sense 'theoretical' rather than 'factual' or 'definitional'. Moreover, these and other concepts are also at times blurring historical reality, which was mentioned above.

Partly it depends on how long your historical view is. I have just read two books on the history of Scotland, one on the Vikings and one on the Anglo Saxons. And of course I have read more history than this.

Just because today we have a clear geographical sense of where Scotland, England and the island of Ireland, together with the border across it when the UK ends and the Republic of Ireland begins, it does not mean that if we go back historically and culturally the same borders applied.

And if (big if and I'm not sure how far I subscribe, especially if the argument is one about pure orality of cultural transmission) we apply these same labels and areas to whatever cultural practices existed in the past we are likely to be going wrong.

To give a micro example, I recently learned that the word 'craik' which people I know use almost as in indicator of Irish ethnicity comes from 'Anglish' via Scotland, and was popularised by some TV programme mid-29th century.

So for years history books have been telling as that the tribe known as the Scotti (that may not be spelled correctly) actually came from the island of Ireland. There were kingdoms that straddled the borders over water, including one of Viking dominance and, as I understand it, earlier Celtic ones. So a neat Scotland/Ireland/England distinction falls down. Neither was Scotland as monolithic as all that. It is believed that the people in the far North East spoke a different form of Gallic to those in the West. At the time of the 'Anglo Saxon' invasion/immigration, the Angles came to occupy much of what is lowland Scotland as well as England, hence the language.

For a long time, the Church in Ireland was not the Church of Rome. There was a synod at Whitby. So many concept we now take for granted, such as Roman Catholicism in Ireland are on a long view, reflections of cultural interchange via one route or another, in more or less violent ways in different contexts. Ironically in the theory of the middle ages rulers got their legitimacy from God via the Pope who authorised the Anglo Norman invasions of Ireland.

Part of what led to this line of thinking is the use of the term 'indigenous' by somebody above. This reminds me of the sort of cultural threat that the far right assert hangs over 'British culture' and the young far right who claim, virtue signalling their patriotism, that this is under threat. One young acoustic song=writer I know of posted a poem amid he songs including the phrase 'kick a Moslem' or some such, and actively supports Tommy Robinson and the far right party supported by Morrisey (an interesting example of cultural interchange as his Irish roots are something he has commented upon). I think we need to be careful.

And nobody here has posted anything about the people in the UK playing or drawing upon folk music that is not 'indigenous' in the sense intended by the original poster. Not to mention the overwhelmingly male posters. Where are the traditional lullabies?

My understanding is that nobody knows much about what music people outside churches and the educated elite were making in England in the past. My belief is that some 'definitions' put forward of folk music and better described as 'theories' because they beg so many questions about what happened when and how far back practices observed in the 20th century, all too often by researchers whose research methods seem almost designed to pollute their ethnographical reports.

What is plain is that some people claim that their favoured definition is the one that has always been used, and this is so far from the truth that it is difficult to escape the thought that such claims are used as some sort of conversational battering ram.

I agree with some posters in that cannot see how the state of clubs related to the state of folk music as this is defined in some definitions. A revival seems to me to be something different from a tradition. I could stuff a chicken so that it looks lifelike and leave it on the kitchen table for all to admire: it could not be said that I had 'revived' the chicken.

I have seen some very enjoyable acoustic music recently that I suppose is folk, some from China, some from Iran. This is the sort of 'folk scene' we might usefully be promoting, I believe.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM

"RTE & BBC Alba - & very good it is too."
It is of course Jim
The fact that there is so much good tratitional music (and song) ifs available in Ireland at the present time makes it a little hard to keep up with where it's coming from - we're certainly spoiled for choice sometime
It's heartening that, by and large many of the programmes may be hosted by well-known names (like Julie Fowlis) quite often they concentrate on lesser-known singers and musicians
The Seamus Ennis dedication was an example - a programme dedicated to possibly Ireland's finest piper which concentrated on the Hebridean an Irish source singers
It could so easily have been (yet another) hour of Ennis's own musicianship
TG4 specialiased in local sessions and events
Thanks for clearing up my point
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:17 AM

However I cannot begin to imagine what it might cost to digitise all this and make it available.

A worthy candidate for a lottery grant for some enterprising person.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:58 AM

On the topic of libraries, I know that Essex County Record Office has many hours of reel-to-reel recordings of evenings at Chelmsford Folk Club (both guests and floor singers) and a separate extensive collection of recordings of folk club and other folk events. However I cannot begin to imagine what it might cost to digitise all this and make it available.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:54 AM

Just from my own knowledge of my local area (which itself isn't comprehensive) I can see that the Living Traditions lists are far from being complete.

It is probably impossible to know how many clubs and other folk events there might be. Lots of smaller events are still publicised by word of mouth or very local advertising and may not have a web presence. I know of one local folk evening which is publicised through the pub's website and doesn't show up if you google "folk club" I am confident that any attempts to calculate the number of clubs will substantially underestimate the correct figure.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM

Ah thanks Dave - yes I see now! Thought it was odd!

Whoever that particular Guest was needs to read the posts on here more closely or just save all our time by not commenting


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM

Jim Carroll

You mention N. Ireland tv but I think you'll find most of the Irish/British trad music co-operation is between RTE & BBC Alba - & very good it is too.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:01 AM

Dick wrote:-

look at irish folk awards and then see the difference with the english folk awards , that is the relevance comparing one country that is closer to its indigenous roots and the uk which has moved further away from oits indigenous roots

Dick, this would only be true if the awards had any relevance, which in my opinion they do not. The organisers are a self-appointed coterie of interested parties who decide themselves who the awards should go to without any reference to public opinion and who have their own axes to grind.
What you are saying, Dick, is that the Irish candidate selection cartel is more inclined to the tradition than the English candidate selection cartel.

As for the Scottish Awards, we have heard that they are a meaningless boondoggle of mutual backpatting.. Now I don't speak jackcamipnese but I am assuming that this means the Scottish shortlists and awards, like the other two are selected by a very small panel with no sense of how the judges are appointed.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM

No one "hacked in", Joe. They copied Dick's comment into their own post and then tagged their own comments on to that. Both posts are still there to view.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM

"How can you 'seem to remember' something that you didn't witness?"
Of course I didn't witness it, but I actually have recordings from the period - one done by the BBC
MacColl was quite clear what he believed was happening to The Ballads and Blues when he wrote "Why I am starting a New Club" for Dallas' Folk magazine - we have it here
I knew Ewan and those around him long enough to have some picture
Even one folkie who was not particularly sympathetic wto Ewan's ideas wrote in his reminiscences of the period that the B and B was becoming a bit of a free-for-all
He told the story of Nixon doing a runner with the club's finances in the same piece

I still find it amazing how people who revel in MacColl Urban Legends leap on their high chairs demanding proof when their own flavours-of-the-month are criticised

From Iains's list, it seems pretty conclusive that there are less than 200 clubs in Britain (and I never really think of Northern Ireland as being part of the British scene - for historical reasons and because of the fact that Ieland never really had a strong club ethos)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM

Thanks Djck. I thought it was unusual as you have made some helpful and interesting contributions to the debate

Wonder how they hacked in? Very sad and potentially very disruptive. It's already too easy to fall out here without people attributing comments to others!

I agree with your later comment about the north east of England being very strong. My first club was the Hartlepool Folk Club at the Nursery - I've lost touch with what has happened up there in detail but many of the clubs that were around in my early days still seem to be going strong


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM

"I see seem to remember The Ballads and Blues was beginning to look like that when MacColl left"

Jim,

I just cannot ever take you seriously. You have said in the past that you had never been to the Ballads & Blues Club but your future wife had. The above event took place in 1961 when I believe you were still up North not having moved to London until 1966.

How can you 'seem to remember' something that you didn't witness?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM

I am talking about england as a whole, in the north east the folk scene is stronger imo, there are more tradtional bsed folk clubs with strong resident singers, however Newcastle bridge folk club apparantly gets more people when they book local acts that is an intersting phenomenon, the conclusion could be viewd in different ways ,it could be inward looking,or it could be a sign of a strong local scene


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM

According to the living tradition there are 178 folkclubs in the uk. They do not claim the list is complete. (6 in N. Ireland)


Interesting resources:
one among many(not yet online)
Jim Carroll & Pat MacKenzie's Collection

http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/magazine/articles

Sessions and useful links

http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/session-index

In Ireland the listing is different (apples and oranges)


http://www.folkandhoney.co.uk/ireland/venues/


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 AM

joe g , i reckon someomne hacked in and added the bottom bit


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:35 AM

yes joe g, that was me, but this below was not so i do not know what is going on
Then if you're comparing England with Ireland, you should have titled your discussion "The Current State of Folk Music in England", which I'm fairly certain is not the same as the state of folk music in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
There's not a single person here who is in a position to judge "the current state of folk music in the UK". For that to be meaningful, you would have to know what's going on in Shetland down to Lands End, and all points in between. If anyone has that experience let them come forward.
What's happening her is that people are reporting their own personal local experience and extrapolating it to cover the whole of the UK, which is meningless.
It was a badly-worded "discussion" in the first place, and nobody's any the wiser since it started.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM

I know everything you say is true Guest - England has a great deal to learn from what if happening in parts of Scotland (I would love to believe "all of Scotland)
I am constantly turning on Northern Irish television and seeing programmes of Sc
ots and Irish singers co-operating in musical projects) - Julie Fowlis is a regular and our Clare Musician Edel Fox made one a couple of weeks ago
The Scots have a tradition to be proud of - hopefully there are more people recognizing that fact than there are in England at present
Lang may your lums.... whatever !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM

I'm assuming by the use of capitals that was you Dick? Apologies if not but Guest 31st October wasn't the person who titled this thread. That was me. Thanks for the criticism anyway. For a badly titled thread it has received over 800 responses - ok some were pointless arguments but I personally think there has been a lot of interesting reading


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM

no guest 31 OCT
i love scottish music, i am critical of how English FOLK MUSIC HAS MOVED AWAY FROM ITS ROOTS ,ENGLAND IS PART OF THE UK SO MY COMMENTS ARE RELEVANT, IT IS NOT A COMPETITION YOU SILLY BILLY BUT A COMPARISON
Then if you're comparing England with Ireland, you should have titled your discussion "The Current State of Folk Music in England", which I'm fairly certain is not the same as the state of folk music in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
There's not a single person here who is in a position to judge "the current state of folk music in the UK". For that to be meaningful, you would have to know what's going on in Shetland down to Lands End, and all points in between. If anyone has that experience let them come forward.
What's happening her is that people are reporting their own personal local experience and extrapolating it to cover the whole of the UK, which is meningless.
It was a badly-worded "discussion" in the first place, and nobody's any the wiser since it started.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

Dick
Thanks for that - I'll look them up and if I ahve any trouble locating them, I'll get back to you
They're all digitised and listed so it would b e a formality to just pass them on
Who's in charge of The Norfolk Archive?
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM

jim,perhaps norfolk county sound archives might be ther lace for Walterand Harry cox recordings


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM

Jack you are right there are more important things than handing out gongs, i thought that comparing the irish and english awards might throw light on each countries state of folk music and i think to some extent it does,of course that is not a reason for having the silly awrds in the first place


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM

PFR
I have to say you weer right to a degree to say I didn't know the full situation of the local libraries in Britain - so I looked it up, and was horrified to see the level they have been driven too by the Government's..... - some would say 'neglect' but I believe it's more deliberate that that - one of the tenets of the Slave Trade was that it is dangerous to educate those you would dominate
THE SITUATION TEN MONTHS AGO
I'm grateful for the education

That aside, it doesn't stop any enterprising group from going higher up and attempting to involve the County or even National libraries in folk song, as we did in Clare
This is an example of what might be attempted, instigated by two friends, Michel Fortune and Aileen Lambert, from Wexford
TRADITIONAL FOLK SONG PROJECTS

Mick and Aileen devised a number of projects, got together groups of singers, (good but not necessarily widely known and certainly not professional performers), approached The National Library of Ireland, who agreed to sponsor them in taking their work around venues in various parts of Ireland at irregular intervals (not a 'tour') and putting on mini-concerts to schools and colleges.
Each one had an increasingly positive effect, the best know and most successful was the 'Man Woman and Child' Project
The immediate effect was the marked increase in the singing of Child Balllads in clubs and sessions, almost unheard of previously.
I was inspired to fulfil a long-time intention of gathering all the Child Ballads that had been captured from the older generation of singers - I've now been working on it for over two years and am hoping to finish it in the next few months
Then I will get all the example I have found, get singers for the ones from print, and pass them on to whoever is interested (probably via PCloud, but I ham hoping that ITMA might consider putting them on line for me

I see no reason why similar projects can't be taken, say to The National Sound Archive at the British Library and try to win their interest
The British Library has, at long last, shown an interest in folk song, thanks to pioneers like Lucy Duran who herself a renowned field worker
This would fit in perfectly with the B.L's putting collections of folk song and music on line, as it has been doing for some years now.

It needs to be confined to folk song as documented and not "I don't know what folk song is" wishy-washiness, which will give it roots in the academic world while at the same time showing the 'entertainment' value of the people's culture.
Its aim should not be to provide work for established singers, but to give the job to folkies who are there for the love and promotion of songs, not for earning a wage or making their name - hopefully there are enough competent and dedicated singers to put together such schemes without them costing a fortune -
Groups could be put together in various parts of Britain rather than them being centralised in London and having to travel to the venues - but they would need to be well-co-ordinated
By using non-stars you would be introducing songs showing you don't have to have been singing before audiences for years - every man and woman a singer (if they work at it)
Mick and Aileen's work did much to increase folk song nationally in Ireland - I wonder if anybody had such dedication in Britain

Ideally, EFDSS not only could, but should do it - I doubt if they would be interested
I thought of broaching the idea with The Traditional Song Forum when we were in Belfast a couple of weeks ago but didn't get the chance.
Something needs to be done, and quick, if Britain is not going to lose its greatest cultural asset
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:28 PM

Why.. it's almost as if the tories don't want ordinary small town citizens
to educate themselves.....?????

Unless they fork out hard earned cash to commercial tuition companies
selling vocational courses the tories approve of...


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