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The current state of folk music in UK

GUEST,crumbly 06 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Nov 19 - 11:35 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM
r.padgett 06 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM
Vic Smith 06 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Nov 19 - 07:55 AM
The Sandman 06 Nov 19 - 07:42 AM
Vic Smith 06 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 19 - 06:14 AM
The Sandman 06 Nov 19 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,Joe G 05 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 05 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
The Sandman 05 Nov 19 - 04:58 PM
Jack Campin 05 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM
Howard Jones 05 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,JoeG 05 Nov 19 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,ottery 05 Nov 19 - 02:08 PM
Brian Peters 05 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM
Brian Peters 05 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Observer 05 Nov 19 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Derrick 05 Nov 19 - 11:37 AM
Vic Smith 05 Nov 19 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Derrick 05 Nov 19 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,JoeG 05 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM
Howard Jones 05 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Nov 19 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Starship 05 Nov 19 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 05 Nov 19 - 09:23 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 19 - 03:46 AM
Jim Martin 04 Nov 19 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Joe G 04 Nov 19 - 07:17 PM
Brian Peters 04 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,Starship 04 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 04:51 PM
Jim Martin 04 Nov 19 - 04:50 PM
Jim Martin 04 Nov 19 - 03:36 PM
r.padgett 04 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Joe G 04 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 10:29 AM
Vic Smith 04 Nov 19 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 04 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM
r.padgett 04 Nov 19 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Peter 04 Nov 19 - 04:25 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 03:28 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 03:24 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,ottery 03 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM

what do you want your 'folk' on Telly for? Surely the main idea is to get out and DO it & not watch a lot of three chord plonkers on the box?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM

Bain and Cunningham. Agree, not English but is UK. WOnderful


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:35 AM

Live music content of all sorts on mainstream UK TV is drastically less than the 1980s / early 90s...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM

'Julie and Mairead'

Muirreann nic Amhlaoibh?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM

Looks like the current UK scene is streets behind in televised folk artists ~ although guitarist over the last 50 years seem ok, as do the American likes Dylan, Paxton and Paul Simon etc

I suspect that BBC and the likes have little on Eric Bogle, Nic Jones, Tony Rose, Pete Coe, Dave Burland, John Kirkpatrick and other solo singers/musicians that is on film, what a great pity

I love the Scottish/Irish stuff on "Port" with Julie and Mairead and the Gaelic stuff, likewise Celtic Connections and Transatlantic sessions with Phil Cunningham and Aly Baine but it aint English folk music

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM

Dick -
“You don't love someone for their looks, or their clothes, or for their fancy car, but because they sing a song only you can hear.”


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM

And a sense of humour.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:55 AM

Nagh, for me it has to be the cooking.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:42 AM

“You don't love someone for their looks, or their clothes, or for their fancy car, but because they sing a song only you can hear.”


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM

GUEST asked -
Oscar Wilde ?
Yes! Have you never heard his wonderful interpretation of that great traditional ballad, "I can resist everything except temptation." It's magical.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:14 AM

Oscar Wilde ?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:48 AM

I realise how lucky i was to have met played sang and got to know all the tradtional musicians and singers from a period of 1968 onwards, these include julia clifford reg reeder isobel sutherland oscar wilde,oscar woods, billy bennington bob lewis   fred jordan, my thanks to all of them sorry if this sounds a bit like widdecombe fair.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM

Walthamstow Observer?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

I couldn't get to Denholm as I am down in Yorkshire at the moment but as far as concerts go it very much did involve folk bands. Malinky on the Saturday night and Northern Company on the Friday. Can't comment on the sessions but they generally tend to be more mixed


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 04:58 PM

guest ottery, here
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM

however in scotland, i am sure it is more like ireland, and of course nobody mentions Wales[ can anyone update us on the forgotten province


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM

I guess "Observer" can't be in Scotland - where as far as I know the only folk festival last weekend was Denholm. The entire membership of the session that would otherwise have happened at Stow that Sunday went to it, and I doubt any of them COULD have done Americana or 1960s pop if you'd asked. (I wasn't there - working).


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM

Vic, Jim Causley's comments are pretty much what my friend says. I think the reason I am so reluctant to accept it is that I discovered folk music (almost by accident), I didn't grow up with it all around me as part of a living tradition. I don't feel I can claim to be a "folk singer" in the same way the term applies to those who were part of that tradition, what I am is a singer of folk songs. I feel there is a genuine distinction to be made. However that is from the privileged position of having been around at the same time as those "old boys", and for those who now don't have that opportunity perhaps we are the next best thing. I still find it difficult to think of myself in those terms though.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:20 PM

You're forgiven Brian :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:08 PM

Jim Martin, thank you for the link to casbar.co.uk - I think it may have been me you were responding to. This thread is so long it's hard to go back and find anything once you've passed over it once.

Enjoyed reading Brian Peters's posts.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM

Ah, I see that the Walter Pardon thread is up and running. I promise not to so as much as breathe his name on Joe's thread again.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM

Hello Mr Sandman - I quite agree about Gemma Khawaja, and Jack Rutter's stuff sounds good too from what I've heard. I'm sure you're right that it's much harder to make a living from folk music than it was 40 years ago, and many of the young musicians I know certainly do have as many strings to their bow as they possibly can. I'm not going to go into possible reasons for that decline, but it doesn't strike me as surprising given how much the world has changed since the the 1960s, and the particular circumstances that made folk music a prominent counter-cultural movement back in those days.

I remembered what I was going to say last night - again small-scale anecdotal evidence for what's going on at ground level, aside from my own professional engagements which I'm way too modest to boast about (winking emoji). My wife and I, when we're at home, attend two informal monthly sessions. One is at he Gaslamp in Manchester, where a singaround takes place in an acoustically-excellent tiled basement room, the repertoire is predominantly traditional with plenty of choruses, and the expectation is that people will sing unaccompanied. The other is at Glossop Labour Club, where singers and instrumentalists gather to share a more eclectic mix of a few trad songs, a few songwriter pieces, maybe a bit of Americana, a recitation or two, and some (generally English) tunes. The more traditional one is the more likely to feature younger singers, though last time I went to Glossop there were some recently-converted and very enthusiastic young shanty singers. At both sessions the standard ranges from excellent to a bit less excellent, and there are sometimes one or two phone cribsheets in evidence. Despite the quite marked difference in repertoire, what both sessions have in common is that they're an opportunity for musical friends and acquaintances to get together and share the kind of songs they like, in a very informal atmosphere, helped along by the odd glass of intoxicant. I really enjoy both - it's the kind of event that's very definitely part of my understanding of 'folk music'.

Vic asked why we "are always saying, 'No no. Don't listen to me; listen to.... and then you reel off the names of the generation that inspired you."

We do this because we're enthusiasts and we want to share the objects of our enthusiasm with others. It doesn't mean we think we're rubbish ourselves. I love watching the expressions when I play a class a recording of Phil Tanner singing 'Young Henry Martin' or Sam Larner chortling his way through 'Butter and Cheese and All'. Ry Cooder always used exactly the words Vic quotes, and no-one thought he meant that he was rubbish.

Lastly, since Pseudonymous has brought up Walter Pardon again, I have to refute a couple of suggestions. Walter's repertoire clearly didn't consist of 'Victorian pop songs', not least because a number of them predated Victoria's reign. Many were certainly popular broadsides, but is calling 'Van Dieman's Land' a 'pop song' in any way useful? He acquired his reputation on the folk scene because of his extensive and interesting repertoire, his skill in singing it, and the sense that he might be the last of his kind. His views on the nature and history of his songs are of great interest not only because he was by all accounts an intelligent and articulate man, but also because folksong academics have often been very good a deciding for themselves what constituted 'folk', without asking the very people who had been singing it for the last couple of hundred years. I've no idea who is alleged to have copyrighted his songs, and as for a 'booking agent', when I saw him (on more than one occasion) he was being driven around by the Watersons and sharing their gigs. Methinks here's too much 'ideological framework' being erected here, but Martin and Norma are still around, as is Bill Leader (who recorded WP), and of course our own Jim Carroll knew him pretty well, so there are plenty of people to ask.

Oh, and as usual I agree with Howard Jones!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:13 PM

Well what did I hear at the "Folk Festival" between last Thursday and Sunday?

In the main it was what I'd describe as "Americana"
Then "contemporary" singer/songwriter contributions
1960s "pop music"
Very, very little was delivered in concert or in sessions that one could describe as "Folk Music".

As I said the Festival IS promoted as a "Folk Festival".


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:37 AM

Not only the sons but the songs as well


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:36 AM

Howard wrote:-

I used to go to listen to the "old boys", and now he sees me as one of them. That is quite a responsibility, and not one I feel I deserve. But that is what folk music is, it is passed from one generation to the next by whatever means possible.

Jim Causley, one of the times that he was staying with us after playing at our club said over breakfast (well, something like...)
Your generation took great inspiration from the wonderful traditional singers that so many of you heard and met and talked to. It makes me jealous to realise how much you admire them.
Our generation hasn't got them, we have got you lot. We like what your generation has done and want to admire you but you won't let us. Your people are always saying, 'No no. Don't listen to me; listen to.... and then you reel off the names of the generation that inspired you. Why do you do that?

Good question, Jim!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:34 AM

My take on the final paragraph of Howards post at 11-10 is does it matter if you are the authentic article or a revival singer.
He was inspired and came to folk music by the revival,and became a
singer
of the songs of the old singers.
As a the result songs are still sung, if the revival had not happened they would have survived only in dusty collections.
The old singers only knew the songs because they were in the right place when their forebears sang them.
The songs and tunes will only survive if sombody plays or sings them be it in a folk club,a pub session or any other place where people hear them.The singer who regards him as one of old singers is singing the songs himself and hopefully will inspire some of those who follow him to
keep the sons going


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM

Two recent projects that suggest to me that the situation for traditional folk song isn't as bad as some fear - whatever the state of folk clubs (The Jon Boden webpage has some odd technical text at the top but works fine!). As stated in the review of Songs From The Seasons, Joshua recorded a song each week - I can't find these on line now but next time I see him I will ask if he plans to republish them

Jon Boden - A Folk Song A Day

Joshua Burnell Songs From The Seasons


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM

I think that, as always, Brian has summed things up very well. I don't think anyone would claim that the folk scene is as healthy as it once was, but neither is it as moribund as Jim would have us believe. There are certainly fewer folk folk clubs, but these have been at least in part replaced by other types of venue, and these are not all passive "bums on seats" but many allow for participation. I agree with Brian that the familiar folk club format may no longer be how people want to enjoy folk music.

There is a sizeable body of young performers who, as Brian describes, are full of both enthusiasm and respect for the music. However they are doing things their own way, and if those are not always what the older generation would approve of perhaps that is no bad thing. I am confident the music is in good hands.

One thing I find sobering is that at least one younger musician of my acquaintance regards me and others of my generation as genuine links in the chain of the tradition. I have always regarded myself as a revival singer and musician, and distinguished what I do from the source singers who were the "real thing". But because I have heard Walter Pardon, Fred Jordan and others sing and played in sessions with Oscar Woods and Reg Reader, because I have heard Peter Bellamy, Tony Rose and Swan Arcade sing live, he regards me as a direct link to all that. I used to go to listen to the "old boys", and now he sees me as one of them. That is quite a responsibility, and not one I feel I deserve. But that is what folk music is, it is passed from one generation to the next by whatever means possible.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:50 AM

Pseud - that sounds like a synopsis for a movie satirising fad hungry music industry / showbiz,
and hack academics & critics...

In 1954 it could have been a gentle Ealing comedy..
In 2019 a darker tragi-comedy...

I'd watch both versions on streaming...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:31 AM

Twelve year old thread resurrected: 'Walter Pardon - which song first?'


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:23 AM

Hello All

I agree about the Unthanks, but when they were on the folk proms, hardl anybody on Mudcat had a good word to say on them, and some comments focussed on their weight not their music.

Pardon is relevant as he is a 'case study' from a former time which is used as a basis for comparison with the current state of music.

I had looked at previous material on Pardon on Mudcat and considered starting a thread, as Pardon and the journalism and other literature etc framing him for public consumption seem to me to provide the basis for an interesting case study.

To me, this is an elderly single man, living in quite a large farmhouse who occupied some of his leisure time working out tunes on a melodion, and remembered a lot of what look to me like Victorian pop songs which he believed his maternal grandfather had learned from broadsides. He stated in an early interview that he did not regard his material as folk, folk being something they did at school. He got taken up by a group of enthusiasts and entrepreneurs, copyrighted, presented as coming from the lowest ag lab level despite the plain educational achievements of his family and their place on the electoral register at time when there was still a propertly qualification. He gets presented as an expert on 'the tradition', a 'source singer', a person able to identify what is folk and what his not, as if he is even an expert on what the tradition is, he is subjected to all sorts of third rate qualitative research which itself portrays how not to do it, he gets a booking agent (albeit the gigs were not always easy to obtain, and I am interested in the ideological framework within which all of this takes place. It isn't just that people put in opinions as if they were 'facts', stuff that doesn't fit the required image seems to get left out.

But I am sorry, and it was a good idea to open op a separate thread.
Jim Carroll winds himself up.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 03:46 AM

hello brian hope all is well in dock green.Iwuld agree there are some talented younger peformers Gemma Khawaja[ who has been influenced by Harry Cox] ans who is booked this year at www.fastnetmaritime.com. jack rutter is another i have noticed.
That does not convince me that the state of the uk folk scene is as healthy as it was 40 years ago. my advice would be do not turn professional, i was lucky i made a living during my years ,thank god i now have a pension.
my advice to aspiring performers would be have another string to your bow, one that allows you time to spend on music, but means you are not entirely dependent on it ,
there are also singers[ they are a minority] who are happy to be slipshod at singers nights but who are not prepared to listen to guest singers who have worked at their craft,the same people are treating audiences with a lack of respect by not bothering to work harder at their performing, this has not always been the case, there was a time when people procrastinating with paper portfolios was unheard of


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Martin
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 08:24 PM

'The Sandman' - Ah ha, right - thks!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 07:17 PM

Thanks Brian - some very good points there and I totally agree with you that it is up to the next generation to decide what to do with the songs.

From what I have witnessed - and Granny's Attic are an excellent example - they are in very safe hands. Re communicating the background to the songs to the audience, Jim Moray did this very well during his recent set at Musicport. All of the young (or youngish!) singers I have heard and met have huge respect for the source material but they, quite rightly want to put their own stamp on it - whether that is keeping close to the original - as I would say Granny's Attic tend to do, or rocking them up like the Whiskey Priests did with mining songs in the 90's (and more recently when they reformed), or using electronica (Jim Moray, Broadcaster) or small orchestral or brass ensembles (Jim Moray again, Bellowhead, Unthanks). That in my view is what will keep the music alive for people to enjoy in the future in whatever venues exist in the future.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM

Evening all.

I've been lurking on the margins of this thread waiting for a moment when I might have something useful to contribute. I've carried out no extensive surveys, so any evidence here is purely anecdotal, and based on the experiences of a performer who generally inhabits the more traditionally-inclined areas of the folk world.

The distinguished Cajun fiddle player Dewey Balfa – both a ‘traditional musician’ and an active revivalist of his indigenous music – once made a very interesting statement: “A culture is preserved one generation at a time”. I take this to mean that it’s up to the next generation to decide what they do with the old music I’ve loved all my adult life, without people like me telling them what they should and should not be doing. I say this without denying the inspiration and advice I received back in the day from more experienced singers like Harry Boardman and Roy Harris, but my approach is to perform and teach the music as best I can and hope something rubs off on the people who hear it.

Over the last few years I’ve worked with several very talented musicians thirty or more years younger than myself, and it’s been a lot of fun. They are all different in character, and their musical interests have varied from a passionate focus on the old songs, to a talent for new compositions of their own - but all of them have had a huge respect for traditional song and music. As far as I’m concerned, that’s as it should be. The best thing their elders can do is to make the musical resources – song collections, source recordings, anecdotes about singers, etc - available to young singers and players like that, to use in whatever way they might choose. There is no shortage of interest there – one of this year’s festival hot tickets, Granny’s Attic, play a high proportion of the kind of songs Cecil Sharp would have nodded approvingly at, to an extraordinary degree of musical virtuosity – and they’re all in their 20s. If that’s the kind of music that floats your boat, you’ve plenty of reasons to be cheerful.

But all of those young musicians – whether or not they’re trying to base a career on their talents – are well aware that their audiences contain more than a few grey hairs, and that folk clubs are dwindling as their organisers lose some of their youthful energy, and I think there’s a growing awareness that they need to be organising things for themselves. However, much as I’ve always found the folk club format very well-suited to the kind of songs that came to us from the tap room, barn and nursery, we also have to accept that the venues of the future may not tick all the boxes of the upstairs pub room, the two 40-minute guest spots, the floor singers, and the raffle.

While I’m here I can’t resist commenting on a couple of the tangential discussions aired in this thread. I first saw Walter Pardon (yes, I know, sorry...) onstage when I was just over 20, at Whitby Folk Festival. I’d never heard of him, and was certainly unaware of any ‘lionization’, but he completely won over his audiences with a good mix of songs well sung, an entirely unassuming – yet very committed – approach to them, and plain old modesty and warmth. There was nothing of the variety performer about him, even when singing Music Hall – he looked down at his shoes while singing. Forty years later I still listen to his recordings and play them to workshop classes - he didn’t have the flamboyance of a Tanner or a Larner, but was one of the best in my opinion - though of course that doesn’t mean everyone has to like his stuff.

Secondly, although I would always say that folk music should be immediate, and be able to grab an audience from the off without any kind of analysis, the fact is that learning about the history of the music and the way it works is fascinating in itself. I’ve always believed that the old songs are not ‘just songs’. They come from particular historical periods, they tell particular stories, they have interesting melodies, and they were sung by real people whose own stories are often colourful and fascinating. Audiences tell me they like to hear some of that; it really isn’t a binary choice.

I’m sure there was another point I wanted to make, but that’s probably enough for now.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM

Jim Martin, I have begun to think it's in the way one holds his tongue ;-)

http://casbar.co.uk/folk-clubs-festivals/


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:51 PM

I asked the question


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Martin
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:50 PM

I've tried to do a 'blue clicky' link on the casbar.co.uk website but for some reason it didn't work! I downloaded it & it was grand - it says it covers S Wales but I've been assured it also encompasses Mid & N too! Hope this is some help?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Martin
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:36 PM

Whoever asked the question about the state of folk clubs in Wales - I'm sorry I just can't find the message amongst the morass of stuff on here - have you searched casbar.co.uk? May be of help.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM

Great source of songs on MT I have a number of CDs and Vinyl, see online lyrics

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM

Walter Pardon would be an interesting thread in it's own right now in 2019,
but is he really that relevent here in a thread about 2019...???


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM

I agree with Dick - any discussion about Walter Pardon or any other singer should really be in a new thread otherwise we'll drift way off topic again!



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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 10:29 AM

Pseud if you want to discuss walter can you start a new thread thanks,are you trying to wind jim caroll up or are you just trolling


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 10:28 AM

Pseudonymous wrote -
Pardon says he did learn some 'folk songs' at school, but plainly differentiates between what he learned at school and the 'old' songs he learned from Billy.

I found this to be quite a common experience when we used to book the old singers in Sussex at our club in Lewes, particularly for our 'Sussex Singers Nights' when the entire evening was given over to them. Every time George Spicer came - and like most of them, he didn't wait to be booked to show up, he came because he enjoyed the evenings - he would say "I don't know any folk songs, you know!" and then he would disprove this by singing them in an absorbing and entertaining way.
There was also some mutterings about where Bob Blake and Bob Lewis learned their songs.... but it didn't actually matter that much. They were all good singers, they had that authentic style of the pre-folk revival singers and those who came learned a lot from them.
That was all that mattered.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM

Any body interested in hearing Walter Pardon's own statement that the songs he learned from his Uncle Billy mostly came from broadsides can do so here, towards the end. The 'Tom' referred to is Billy's father, Walter's maternal grandfather.

They can also hear Pardon deny point blank that they called the songs they sang 'folk'. Pardon says he did learn some 'folk songs' at school, but plainly differentiates between what he learned at school and the 'old' songs he learned from Billy.




I am collating the information I can find about Pardon, who, it seems to me, was most certainly lionised. I was particularly interested to find one of the many Pardon researchers reporting that Billy would go to music hall/variety and then go through the songs at home since some of Pardon's delivery reminded me of variety singers I recall seeing on the TV in my youth. I have lost the reference for that but I'll post it in a thread later, and then people will be able to add other information they have.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 08:21 AM

Loss of many pubs and similar venues does contribute greatly

The collaborations between pubs micro breweries and sessions and folksongs should be noted and this does not necessarily pre suppose the use of microphones ~ provides real ale and a ready audience!

Some great mixed sessions at Doncaster Tap, Kelham Island, Fernandes Tap and folky Polka Hop

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:25 AM

The loss of folk clubs is probably under stated because of a trend from weekly to monthly when new clubs do start.

in the nineties and noughties there was a definite move away from clubs to sessions. Where I am now this is suffering due to pub closures and the shift in pub culture from drinking to eating.

Comments above about Yorkshire suggest that people up there still eat at home and drink in the pubs but south of the Humber the trend is definitely to eat out and drink cheap supermarket booze at home.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:28 AM

IN YORK there was a club run by noel dobson NOEL DOBSON, plus the ancestor of the black swan folk club, scarborough used to have a club, hull had a club selby had a club, i dont thik any of these exist now


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:24 AM

With respect i have been travelling the uk folk clubs for approx 45 years, there are fewr folk venues than there were 45 years ago. i am pleased to hear york is healthy, however it used to have2 flourishing folk clubs in the late 70s .I PLAYED THEM BOTH A NUMBER OF TIMES


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

I imagine many towns and cities have a less flourishing scene"I THINK you are probably right,LEWES LOST ONE OF ITS folk clubs macclesfield used to have two it now has none ,the isle of wight used to have two, idont thik it has any now, bishps stortford has lost its folk club,ipswich no longer has a folk club sudbury and haverhill no longer have clubs and that is just for starters


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM

I lived in Leeds for a while, and enjoyed the liveliness of the folk music scene in Yorkshire. Powys so far seems to be a bit quieter on that front afaik, and York, Otley, Whitby etc. are now out of my reach.


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