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The current state of folk music in UK

r.padgett 16 Nov 19 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 08:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 07:40 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 19 - 07:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 07:07 AM
r.padgett 16 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Joe G 16 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 06:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 06:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 06:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Nov 19 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 06:04 AM
Howard Jones 16 Nov 19 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 05:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Nov 19 - 05:56 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,JoeG 16 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Nov 19 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Nov 19 - 03:05 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:56 AM
The Sandman 16 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 09:04 PM
RTim 15 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Joe G 15 Nov 19 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,JoeG 15 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM
Jack Campin 15 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 19 - 04:03 PM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 10:48 AM

That's interesting I would have thought Harry Cox was most certainly of the traditional folk song singer as is Walter Pardon, Sam Larner, Arthur Howard, Frank Hinchliffe ilk

How is Harry Cox not a traditional folk singer Jim Carroll, is Nick winding us up?


Contemporary folk singers and singer songwriters are totally different and some singers fall into the realms of revivalist and traditionalist but I aint bovvered about definitions ~ they are ALL folk singers if they are singing folk songs ~ traditional or not!!

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:53 AM

Peter - it presumably tells you and I different things about the state of folk music :-)

But - Dave wasn't using Steeleye to comment on the state of folk music he was using the clip to demonstrate to Jim that Steeleye Span were still going. There were plenty of other performances at Shrewsbury that year and every year that would better demonstrate the healthy state of the music today


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:31 AM

"If contemporary songs are now to be referred to as folk, then we need another definition for the repertoire of Harry Cox."
Nice one Nick

"That is not correct ~ "
Been there-don that Ron
Folk referes to the community the songs originated from - tradition, the process they underwent to get where they ended up
Both are very specific terms when applied to the traditional arts
THe fact that 'folk' has now been made meaningless by misuse only confirms that it's earlier us is an accurate one
You really can't have it both ways, it either means something specific or it doesn't
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM

Dave,

I wasn't feeling sorry for you, after all everybody must like what they like, that's fine. But I do feel sorry for the English folkscene if that video is a measure of the state of it. I only watched it briefly and found no redeeming factors in it. I actually liked their original version of the Blackleg minor at the time but here the song is butchered, there's nothing enjoyable left. If that sells out concert tickets to great grannies and their great grandchildren, maybe that does tell us something about the state of things, and it isn't much to rejoice about.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM

Yeah I'd like to know about that bus too! :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM

OK, Joe, I believe you. Still waiting to hear about Dave's bus, though!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

Yep we are very lucky indeed in York, Dave. A hotbed of musical talent! Oddly enough I'm not too keen on Blackbeard's Tea Party. Nothing wrong with them of course and can't put my finger on what I don't like. Even though I'm not keen though they are certainly still folk :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

Just realised I saw that Steeleye Span set at Shrewsbury and it was pretty good. Not the highlight of the festival by any means but certainly enjoyable.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

Blackheads=Blackbeard's if you hadn't realised!

Another York band, Joe. Must be something in the water :-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:18 AM

Gosh Dave, what bus is that?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:16 AM

Good points Brian as always. I think that both Olivia Chaney and The Decembrists both have a fairly young following (I may be wrong of course) I agree that they are probably not the future of folk but they certainly are the present. I am hoping that the future will be as, or even more, interesting!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM

You are quite right of course, Brian. We are no longer young and do not fully understand the current state of young people's music. Any more than someone who has been out of touch with UK folk music can understand the state of that!!

I must say that it heartens me when I go to a concert by Blackheads Tea Party and see so many young people rocking in the aisles. Or hear local schoolkids discussing the latest albums by Granny's Attic and Jon Boden on the bus!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 07:40 AM

If contemporary songs are now to be referred to as folk, then we need another definition for the repertoire of Harry Cox.
Swans and ducks swim on a stream it does not make them the same bird. Horses and Donkeys have four legs and both pull carts, they are not the same animals and a dog is not a horse because it's born in a stable.
Why do we get so hung up on definitions? It's not a competition.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 07:31 AM

Personally I really liked Offa Rex's 'Sheepcrook'. Jim made a comparison with Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow' which is quite apt: listening to Offa Rex, as opposed to listening to my CD of Caroline Hughes singing the same song, requires adopting a different set of expectations - almost putting on a different set of ears. I would do just the same when listening to Butterworth's or Vaughan Williams' gorgeous orchestrations of traditional melodies. It's a different musical genre, albeit using raw material from folk song.

Whether Offa Rex actually represents'the future of Folk' is an entirely different question. Their arrangement borrows from the Heavy Metal end of rock music and, although many of us oldies on here are very comfortable with that style, it's not what most young people are listening to.

The question of ownership is a very interesting one generally, and especially in the case of this song. Who does own a song that was being printed commercially 200 years ago, and has been sung in different variants by a host of singers in the interim? But it's no accident that Steeleye picked Queen Caroline's version above any other - her alternative tune for the 'Here's my sheepcrook' verse is unique as far as I know, and has become the definitive element in Steeleye's version - so perhaps the song is hers to a significant degree. Then again, presumably SS will have copyrighted their arrangement, not the actual song, and that is their intellectual property. As Nick Dow said, all a bit of a minefield.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 07:25 AM

Peter, at least you said "to my ears" which indicates it is merely an opinion. I am sure there are artists amongst your favourites that are not my cup of tea either but I would not dream of suggesting, as some do, that my taste in music is any better than yours. Just different.

And, no, it was not posted as an indication of anything. Just trying in vain to bring Jim up to date. No need to feel sorry for me. I am lucky in that I can enjoy traditional, unaccompanied, accoustic, electric, contemporary, fusion and many other types of folk music. If there are some you do not like it is no skin off my nose.

Jim. "Game, Set and Match". Really? Sounds remarkably like "you lose". Are you channelling someone?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 07:07 AM

Apologies there was a totally unintended 'gone' in my post. No idea where that came from.

I agree with Ray. The songs of Jez Lowe, Reg Meuross, John Tams are every bit as much folk as any traditional song. They are also excellent songs which are every bit as important as traditional folk songs. Indeed there are many traditional songs I'd be happy to never hear again - though despite that I believe in them being preserved for those who like them


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM

that's why folk and traditional are two sides of the same coin ~

That is not correct ~ you may be listening Jim Carroll but you are simply not able to grasp the fact that traditional folk song has been added to with contemporary folk song ~ largely songs sung in the accepted style of the traditional ~ they might never ever, become traditional because of the definition of traditional folk song

However they ARE folk songs ~ you have been told countless times that very fact


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM

Jim you seem to wish to twist so many reasonable responses to your assertions. The fact that Offa Rex's version of folk songs will be heard by thousands does not make their interpretation into a 'pop' song such as are in the pop charts. It does make it popular and, as I say, likely to be heard by many people who may take an interest in the source material.

I know you are passionate about keeping folk music alive but you seem resistant to anyone who is doing that in any other way than you consider gone acceptable. Surely making the songs more popular is a way to help them survive? Otherwise they will die out with us.
As Dave says Steeleye Span are still touring, Home Service reformed, Albion Band are still going, Fairport still tour, lots of younger artists are taking innovative approaches to folk songs so folk rock is still very much alive - thank goodness!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM

Is that last 'Span' link really what passes for 'folk' nowadays ?
Game, Set and Match, I think
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM

'...and I suggest you get more up to date with your links!'

A good reminder why I went off them some time during the late seventies. That was deeply awful to my ears.

I have been keeping sort of one eye on this thread and I know little about Eniglish 'folk' music but if this is to be held up as a token things are well, I feel very sorry for you.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:34 AM

"It is not a farewell concert,"
I didn't say it was intended to be Dave - merely making a comparison
All these groups ate a blast from the Past and no longer prominent as they were when Dallas wrote 'The Electric Muse' so basically, they have nothing to do with "the Current state of the revival"
They are as irrelevant as some people believe Walter Pardon is, in fact
If we can't discuss Walter, we certainly can't discuss rock groups, whether they call themselves folk or not (and whether that claim has any validity or not)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:17 AM

...and I suggest you get more up to date with your links!

Steeleye Span. Shrewsbury 2018


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:09 AM

It is not a farewell concert, Jim and as I said the audience is from all age ranges and social categories. Every time you pontificate on anything recent you just show your ignornce more and more.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:08 AM

don't get much lower order than Villa fans, so they tell down at St Andrews.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:04 AM

"Steeleye Span are celebrating their 50 year anniversary with a new album"
Oh - come-on Dave
How many farewell concerts did Frank Sinatra Have ?
That's not a continuation, it's a Resurrection for the benefit of the crumblies who remember them - just !
https://youtu.be/6gH_X2efRdI
My point exactly - as far from folk as you can get - with all it' s Sheep Crooooooook
Dreadful
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 06:00 AM

"I'll give you an example a certain singer recorded a contemporary song with the writers permission. The writers recording and publishing company demanded he pay royalties. "

The problem there was that the writer was no longer in a position to give permission, he had assigned that right to his publisher. The publisher now owns the song and is the one entitled to the royalties. Hopefully the writer received a fair deal in return.

The publisher takes on the financial risks of publishing the music in return for being given the rights to make money from it. Ideally the writers and musicians will receive a fair deal, but all too often this is not the case, whether due to their naivety or the balance of power being in favour of the producer. The whole PRS/MCPS system is built around this model, which makes it difficult for individuals to receive royalties unless they are able to join these bodies, so it often works better for them to assign their rights to a publisher.

In the commercial music world the best an emerging artist can hope for is to tie themselves to one of the big labels and hope they don't get ripped off. Only once they are successful are they powerful enough to take back control after the initial contract ends. The folk scene is different, and it is increasingly common for musicians to act as their own publishers and retain control. Besides, most of the folk labels are cottage industries with close ties to the music and I have no reason to think they don't treat their artists fairly. However problems may still arise if they go out of business, as their ownership rights can then be acquired by anyone and don't revert to the artists (which was the cause of the Bulmer issue).


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:58 AM

"i think it is a load of old squit"
Everybody to their own Dick - whichever part of the body it comes from-)
NOWT WRONG WITH THIS
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:56 AM

the scen abandoned Steeleye and Pentangle and the rest in the last century

Just shows how out of touch you are, Jim. Steeleye Span are celebrating their 50 year anniversary with a new album and sell out tour. I can confirm that their concerts have massive audiences ranging from babes in arms to great grannies.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

people still listento and perform country and irish it is a well loved genre, but i think it is a load of old squit. yes your argument about bringing people in to the music is valid


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

62,238 "views"
https://youtu.be/6gH_X2efRdI


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:22 AM

"what you consider to be the only true 'folk' versions "
Don't remember saying there
Their ain't no such thing I'm afraid, you must be thinking of someone else
It doesn't matter how many people here itt - that would make every song on the hit parade a folk song - that would be silly, wouldn't it ?

"People still listen to, love and perform folk rock you know,"
As they do first wold war songs - the scen abandoned Steeleye and Pentangle and the rest in the last century
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

'It is a somewhat dated experimental rendition in a style that has gone the way all pop renditions eventually go'
Jim

Yes - heard by many thousands more people than what you consider to be the only true 'folk' versions will be heard by. Some of whom, as I have said, may be interested enough in the songs to discover more about them - like I was when I heard Steeleye Span and Five Hand Reel and became a life long devotee of the songs and music.

People still listen to, love and perform folk rock you know, and it is a well loved genre with quite a few artists such as Joshua Burnell finding new audiences for folk songs. All good in my view. It is certainly not dead.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM

"Then logically that could apply to any piece of music."
It might, if that music is anonymous - most composed music isn't
The term 'Folk' identifies a specific section of the community anyway - that's why folk and traditional are two sides of the same coin
'Folk' as applied to the peoples' culture was agreed on in the 1830s tp identify lore, tales music, dance, song..... the creation of 'the lower orders - 'The People'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM

no no no modern composed songs particularly pop songs , are always[in my experience performed lyric wise as written.eg yesterday, that means they do not get folk processed


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM

"The songs were taken up and passed on and changed by whoever took them up in the process - that's what defines them as folk songs"
Then logically that could apply to any piece of music.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:34 AM

If a song evolves is totally out of the hands of the music industry and the creator.

One of my songs was adapted and given naughty words by the fans of Bayern Munich football club and sung on the terraces (if those cultured EU countries have terraces). I didn't know anything about it. I doubt if I got any royalties.

I seem to remember Lloyd Webber's Jesu Christ Superstar suffered a similar fate:-
Ryan Giggs! Superstar!
How many goals have you scored so far

The song Son of my Father was adopted by Aston Villa fans in the 1970's

Oh Jolly Roger!
Roger! Roger! Roger!
Roger Hinds!.

One publisher who owned three of my songs and had some success with them,   went bankrupt. this was considered good business practice in the 1980's. the songs passed to the files of a huge conglomerate who do bugger all with them. I believe the the guy lives in Hawaii.

Its made me very wary of publishers.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

"Thanks Jim for saying the version I posted was an acceptable rendition - "
I didn't say it was an acceptibkle rendition of a folk song - I made it quite clear that I don't believe it is
It is a somewhat dated experimental rendition in a style that has gone the way all pop renditions eventually go
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:08 AM

Actually I'll do a bit better than that. Some people might say the music business is run by a bunch of well mannered thugs in suits. Right now we have the ludicrous situation where Taylor Swift is being banned from singing her own songs, Sandi Thom was pushed out of the business by the playlist of a certain broadcasting company and numerous artists have retired hurt. Just listen to the late Kirsty McColl's song on the subject.
We have had a few nasty bits of work on the Folk Scene as well, take a look at some previous threads on here. If you are a successful singer in any medium my opinion is you need to remain as independent as you can.
I'll give you an example a certain singer recorded a contemporary song with the writers permission. The writers recording and publishing company demanded he pay royalties. The singer said 'Not even a problem! I'll post the cheque directly to the writer then shall I?' The voice on the phone said he would be very displeased if that happened, and might take further action, for the money was his company's cash, and did not belong to the writer. The singer backed down and said OK, because he was fairly young and inexperienced, The singer later met the writer who said he had received no money at all.
At the same time the singer was turned over by his previous record label. Those who ran said label it is alleged did very nicely.
Oh happy memories- Dingle we have a luverly time the day we went to the cleaners!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:05 AM

"Only because we don't know who wrote them. They didn't write themselves. A really stupid statement."
Nothing stupid about it
It's not their anonymity that makes them folk songs but what happened to them
The songs were taken up and passed on and changed by whoever took them up in the process - that's what defines them as folk songs
Some of them almost certainly were made communally - we have a number of examples of recently composed (40-60 year old) being made by groups of people passing lines and verses between each other until they finished up with full songs
In each case, the names of the people who were involved were not known, the communities took them up and they became part of Traveller/Clare culture
The law deems such songs to be public public property - you think that stupid, take it up with the law
Walter was spot on (as he usually was) when he said "They're everybody's"
      
In my opinion, all folk songs are 'arrangements' so it is sharp practice for any modern artist to copyright their arrangement, because they are doing so on the backs of the legal owners "Everybody"
If there is any money to be made out of selling such songs it should be ploughed back into the preservation of folk song
Singers are entitled to earn money from singing folk songs (being paid for their labour) if that's what they choose to do, but that's it - end of story
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:56 AM

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

"... why paul macs songs will never be folk songs another reason is that they cannot evolve "
Crap. Of course they can "evolve". It's all down to what musicians do with them. They will "never be folk songs". So what ?
NO YOU ARE WRONG THE LYRICS OF YESTERDAY DO NOT CHANGE THEY DO NOT EVOLVE ,MUSICAL ARRANGEMENTS MAY CHANGE, BUT THE LYRICCS ARE PERFORMED AS WRITTEN ALWAYS. They will never be tradtional songs they are composed material and the lyrics are never changed ,they may be good songs but they are not trad material ,whether you like it or not there isan accepted definition of tradtional


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM

if you write a tune for a set of words , as i understand it it is more than trad arranged , you receive 50 per cent of the amount of a self composed song and sometimes more.
i did not say the amount would be so small it would be an insult. YOU HAVE MISQUOTED ME.
On the subject of bands having hits, it seems to have been quite common for the bands to have been ripped off depending on the contracts signed examples, bo diddley the small faces.
Nick if the music belongs to everybody, logically it means just that. trad music in the words of walter belongs to everybody , the problem arise when commercialism steps in and greedy agents etc.
all this illustrates the current state of folk music in the uk it gets fucked up when money grabbing people enter the scene be they, Kennedy. dave bulmer,
Nick called them family songs, but are they self composed songs? or tradtional material, and unless they are copyrighted gypsy like gorgios are not protected, if they are copyrighted it means in theory they cannot be sung by others if the people are getting paid for singing them ,enforcing that is more difficult


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM

A bit dodgy for me to comment, for obvious reasons. Until I see what they actually put, and what system they used for payments if any it would be better for me to keep my gob shut. I don't know that they did not put Trad arr. and which publishing company they used.
Like I said welcome to the muso business.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 09:04 PM

what would have happened if Steeleye had put Trad arranged by credit?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: RTim
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 07:32 PM

As Nick Dow said - Barbara Berry wrote a tune to a song that became very popular......and Barbara was an old old friend of mine - and I can tell you her and Len (her husband) were very very pleased with the regular cheques they received for the covers of the song....They probably made more from that than I have from 3 Traditional song based CD's....
And before you ask - most - if not all of the songs on those CDs came from Manuscripts and collected singers who have LONG been dead!!!

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM

Al
It wouldn't be up to Steeleye to get the money to them. The way it works is MCPS collect royalties from them, and distribute them accordingly. So had Peter Kennedy registered for MCPS or whatever other body does the same, he would have had the money and honest man that he was would have passed it on in cash to them.
The reality is that as Dick said the amount was so small it would have been an insult, however it really depends how many records you press (or CD/s you burn) If you have a run of 50k it might end up a reasonable amount. The late Barbara Berry wrote a tune to a traditional song that was sung by a very well known young singer and received royalties accordingly.
The Gypsy Folk are not interested in any of this, and they don't do 'misinformed'. What they see is a band that had a hit in the charts and plays in big places full of people, singing one or more of their family's songs and they are getting naff all. That they see as another Gorgio rip off, and I am not the one who is going to try to tell them any different. So it got round like wildfire and they now set their price, and sing accordingly.
Come to think about it so do you, and I, and anybody else you care to mention. We also sing for free if the cause is a good one and guess what. So do they. I have gained their trust over 30 years and they know that their songs are not going anywhere they don't want them to go. That's why I sit on my recordings and only pass them on to those I trust.
Welcome to the wonderful music business.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:14 PM

Sorry that should have read 'Thanks Jim for saying the version I posted was an acceptable rendition - glad we can agree on that. I still consider that version to be folk though. We won't agree on that but the conversation has moved on so I am happy to go with the flow'

Not a good idea typing on a phone on a bus!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM

Jim said 'I'm not saying for one minute that yours ia an unacceptable rendition, I am saying if it ain't narrative it ain't folk'

Thanks Jim for saying the version I posted was an unacceptable rendition - glad we can agree on that. I still consider that version to be folk though. We won't agree on that but the conversation has moved on so I am happy to go with the flow


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

"... why paul macs songs will never be folk songs another reason is that they cannot evolve "
Crap. Of course they can "evolve". It's all down to what musicians do with them. They will "never be folk songs". So what ? Who are you to define what will be regarded as a "folk song" in 100/200/500 years time ?
https://youtu.be/0MzetQfKwbE


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:12 PM

Ownership is something ethnomusicologists deal with all the time, and the variety of answers to "who owns this song?" are much more varied than anybody's mentioned in this thread. Ownership can be individual or collective, with all sorts of collectivities and legal frameworks. Most of the traditional songs of one region pf Melanesia are owned by specific families, and you would probably be on the pointy end of a spear if you infringed that. One Native American culture expects a man to make one flute tune for himself in adolescence, played on a flute he made himself, which will be his exclusively, and he will never play anything else. Other songs are mysteries, the property of religious groups who never let outsiders hear them (like Aboriginal corroborree songs and the hunt songs of northern England). Others are taught and performed under compulsion, like national anthems, and the coercion is directed at those who don't join in.

In many of these situations the question "is it folk?" Is irrelevant, and if you really did want an answer, the status of the song (tune, dance, costume, ritual) in statutory or customary law wouldn't help you find one.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:03 PM

I   see - but how would Steeleye Span get the money to the source singers if the source singers didn't claim some part in their ownership.

The basic proposition was that the source singers were diddled. correct me if I've got it wrong.

Seems to be my day for getting things wrong.


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