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The current state of folk music in UK

Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 04:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 19 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 19 - 02:05 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Nov 19 - 01:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 19 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Nov 19 - 04:47 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Nov 19 - 04:39 PM
Raggytash 13 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 03:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 03:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 02:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 19 - 02:36 PM
Nick 13 Nov 19 - 02:28 PM
Raggytash 13 Nov 19 - 02:06 PM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 02:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 01:51 PM
GUEST 13 Nov 19 - 01:50 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 01:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,jag 13 Nov 19 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 12:01 PM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 11:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 09:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM
r.padgett 13 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 19 - 09:33 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM

The attitude to folk music being shown by today's clubs

You have said yourself, Jim, that you neither go to nor care about folk clubs yet here you are again pontificating about the state of them. How about you stick to things you do know and care about like Travellers or Walter Pardon. Your knowledge and passion on those subjects shine like a beacon. Your ignorance of the current state of folk music in England is plain for all to see. I will no longer engage with you on something you so blatantly know very little about. I shall continue to learn from your posts on things you are an expert on. I suggest you do the same with people who actually know and care what goes on in folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:58 AM

I regard postings from trolls telling me not to post have the opposite effect -thanks for the encouragement to go on Troll

Al - most music has it's roots in the past and comes back to life at the point of performance - not sure what that was all about
We are talking about what is being passed off as 'folk' which has nothing to do with that description
People keep taling about 'definitions' and 'rules' - they are the only ones to do so
For me, if you are going to involve yourself in pulicly presenting folk music there are a a couple of guidelines
a. You respect your audiences by giving them what you tell them you are giving them - if you don't, you are conning them
b. You respect the music you are giving them by performing it to a level that it doesn't damage its image or its identity

The attitude to folk music being shown by today's clubs breaches both of those guidlelines and the reluctance to discuss it indicates that that today's scene respects neither the audiences nor the music nor those who come to listen to folk song
The reason for this was put perfectly by an earlier poster - the clubs are being run for the benefit of the performers, the audiences and the music has ceased to count

"You could listen to ThWell down in the Valley, or Knife and Sheath half a dozen times without having a clue what they were about. They're a bit cryptic - wouldn't you agree?"
Like all worthwhile things, sometimes you have to work at something to appreciate it
I take it you are not a film fan or a reader (or maybe you confine yourself to Star Wars and Jack Ryan)
Both of these ballads have survived fro centuries - 'Well' was preserved in the non-literate Traveller community
If they found it worth listening to, why can't we ?   
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:34 AM

The last time I saw Joe was back in the 90's at the Embassy in Skeg - along with Mike Penders Searchers. Yes he is good on the mandolin, and the uke. But to my mind, he plays it like an inferior sort of guitar - rather than looking at it as a unique instrument. Of course he tore everyone's heart out playing I'll See You in My Dreams at the Concert for George.

I sent him my Barbara Windsor song - got a snotty dismiss from his management - " Not foe Joe". I wrote back saying, are you the guy who picked Three Hats for Lisa?

As for folk, blues, jazz, being rooted in the past. Its the sort of comment that makes mw wonder if you understand anything about the nature of music generally. At the point of creative performance, even the oldest song should feel like cutting edge to the performer. in a way the audience can supply part of that feeling. The only thing I can compare it to, its like feeling a live fish at the end of a line. And its what keeps everyone doing it.

As to the narrative element being an essential ingedient of folk music. I'm not sure. You could listen to ThWell down in the Valley, or Knife and Sheath half a dozen times without having a clue what they were about. They're a bit cryptic - wouldn't you agree? And the drinking songs. Are they not folksongs? Some of them are a bit incoherent, for obvious reasons.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM

Hence it would be better to have his own personal thread where he can type away all day and the rest of us can have more reasonable conversations and even disagreements. Time after time things get constructive here when Jim is bestowing his greatness on the Irish folk scene.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM

"You, who claim to love folk music, damage it every time to start to pontificate about it."

Example: I had got to loathe even the mention of the name Ewan MacColl, largely as a result of the tirades relating to him I had encountered here, some of which is in the copious posting and splatter as referred to above.

It was only going back to Harker, that I began to appreciate his talents again, though I still do not regard him as a folk singer.

And I'm still not sure that a trained technician, who at one point was almost certainly self employed counts as a manual labourer as opposed to petit bourgeois.

I would not mind copious posting if it were carefully thought through, organised, well written and reliable. I know Jim has in the past sneered at people not literate/careful enough to write correctly in their posts. Time he took his own advice. And as complaint after complaint shows, his reading skills seem a bit rusty. Too much taking out of context and twisting.

IMHO


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM

Aaaahh! Mea Culpa!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM

"Not the kind of Yellowbelly I was talking about Jim! "
I do know that Baccy - it was a wry comment on what seems to be happening on the scene today (which people would rather not talk about)
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:42 AM

Not the kind of Yellowbelly I was talking about Jim! My reference was to Joe Brown, who is a Lincolnshire Yellowbelly, having been born in Swarby near Sleaford.

And I didn’t make any mention of folk, I said he’s a great entertainer! Which he undoubtedly is. Although, as usual, that’s IMHO and YMMV.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:23 AM

FOLK - YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS !!!!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM

"You would do yourself, and mudcat a big favour if you also
showed a bit more self restraint with your copious posting..."
There we have it - we have no answer to your questions so shut up

Says it all really
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM

Another great Yellowbelly! And an excellent entertainer.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:05 AM

Have you listened to Joe Brown reccently, Al? He is very good on ukelele. Also does a surprising amount of folk and folk related stuff although I care say some would disagree. He is one that shows quite a remarkable evolution. Not someone I ever considered before but I went to see him a couple of years back. He has moved on considerably from the 50s and now does a show with something for evetyone. Lots of new stuff and diversity mixed in with old favourites done in a more up to date style. Rather like the folk scene really:-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:56 AM

G’waaa-a-a-an, ya know ya wanna! ;-)


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 PM

I've just typed a follow up, which I'm now thinking twice about..

I think it's funny, most others would get it is intended tongue in cheek..
But as usual, you'd probably take the matey sarcasm entirely the wrong way and have a huff...

ooh.. should I risk it...?????


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM

Jim - That post makes some sense up until "fortunately for both of us, I don't"
Fair do's..
After that it just falls apart into random misdirected splatter...

Here's a thought...
Today, as most days, I typed at least two long posts,
which after a break for a mug of tea,
and a further proof read,
I decided to not submit - so scrapped them...

I've another, written this afternoon which I am still considering
if it will genuinely add any value to the discussion.
It will probably also be discarded..


You would do yourself, and mudcat a big favour if you also
showed a bit more self restraint with your copious posting...
Or at least, please proof read your posts properly
so we have some idea who you are talking to,
and what about...

You too often make totally wrong conclusions,
about our individual words and intentions...

ie.. "Nevr mind - yo all have ,Pseudonymous on your sisde
That should ease your consciences a little
"

what complete bollocks...!!!


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:02 PM

"I think we just need to accept that while there are people with their heads firmly planted in the past "
Folk, like much of classical, jazz, theatre Blues, is of the past
That's what you sign on for

"No insult at all Jim, perchance a rather insightful description of your attitude"
rose coloure glasses to someone who has spantgetting on fidor sixty years in the game, from asomeone who urefuses to offer any arguments is deeply insulting
If I bothered about this sort of thing it would also be deeply hurtful - fortunately for both of us, I don't
You have offered no argument - you have offered no alternative description of what you mean by folk songs - just dismissive insults - fine
I think you make my point for me far better than I can
Not one of you acknowledges or denies the importance of the music you have swept aside to make for..... whatever
I wonder why I keep seeing pictures of the state we have left our planet in for our kids....
Nevr mind - yo all have ,Pseudonymous on your sisde
That should ease your consciences a little
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:59 PM

One of the greatest contributions made to our access to and understanding of our song tradition over the last 30-40 years has been the Roud Index. The work continues and must count for something.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM

There was a window around 3 - 6 Nov where the thread seemed a lot more positive.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:10 PM

Anyway - can we talk about recent developments.

I love this revival of the ukulele. I've got to admit it has provided me with a lot of inspiration. There are lots of uke groups - one meets every week in Weymouth.

Personally I relate to the George formby split stroke style more than the hawaiian thing. Although , that's fun as well.

I just think its great. there are singers in our local folk circles using all versions of the uke - soprano, tenor, baritone and bass.

One trad group uses the bass uke rather like a bass guitar.

The uke has been around for a long time and English players have been amongst the most innovative, and by and large it has been ordinary working class people who have adopted into their folk culture.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM

I'm with Dave the Gnome. I think there a certain degree of what amounts to heckling.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:47 PM

I must add that in my opinion the folk clubs started to fold because the teenagers and twenty somethings that made them in the 60s got married and had families and didn't have enough time to put into it. Our club was so successful people started going off and forming ceilidh bands, dance teams, mummers teams, writing books, collecting folk songs, turned professional, and didn't have time for the club so much. Another massively important reason is we didn't see the writing on the wall and didn't do enough to encourage younger people to participate. Result many clubs in the 80s 90s full of ageing folkies and now today those clubs that are left, with a few notable exceptions who did encourage younger people, resemble old people's homes.

However, that does not mean the scene is not thriving in many other ways, lots of festivals, concerts, sessions, singarounds, going into education, etc., etc.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:39 PM

For God's sake not the 'definition' again! This has been perfectly well covered in great detail in other threads. The only thing I'll say is that like most terms in the dictionary/encyclopedia 'folk' has several meanings and means different things to different people. Words evolve.

For someone who celebrates the evolution aspect of tradition, Jim, you are remarkably anti-evolution in your outlook.

The folk scene has changed. It had to. Many of us were there at the beginning when the folk club was the hub. There weren't that many festivals or workshops or singarounds or sessions, and there were lots of relatively passive people who made up the audiences. Nowadays because of the many more active participants, the festival, singaround and session are much more predominant.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM

No insult at all Jim, perchance a rather insightful description of your attitude ................. and I do mean attitude, because you do have one that resembles a belligerent bad tempered old bastard.

You want your 'folk music' wrapped in Aspic, the rest of us realise it is a vibrant, living entity that evolves with time.

We see and listen too the immensely talented singer/songwriters of today (and the past 60 years) and marvel at their talents.

All you do is denigrate them saying 'that not folk music'

Well it is to us and I and I suspect the majority of people don't give a flying **** for a usesless outdated 'defintion'

And if saying this upsets you I really don't care.

You, who claim to love folk music, damage it every time to start to pontificate about it.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:24 PM

If I live long enough to 'interpet' trad folk songs the way I'd be interested in hearing them myself..
.. a valid approach.. a fair project to embark on..
.. and make them available for potential internet listeners..

I've never had any intention of calling myself a 'folk artist'...
..never...

I'll leave that sort of thing up to critics and academics,
if any ever stumble across me...

.. oh.. and also any big prize money TV/radio Music Awards shows...

.. and guitar sponsorhip deals...

and... etc..etc....


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:18 PM

DeRail any discussion...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:15 PM

I think we just need to accept that while there are people with their heads firmly planted in the past and determined to detail any discussion on the present or future is impossible. I can only suggest that now the "good old days" have now been done to death, we ignore any further attempt to compare the then with the now.

We have seen that the current state of folk music is fit for now. How do we help to take it into the future?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 02:59 PM

"With respect it is Jim who has got this constant need to go back to the definition he prefers of "folk song" a!"
It isn't the one "I prefer" is is the century old established one
So far not one of you have com3e up with an alternative so that one ramains intact

"Just who is using the term folk song if it is not the folk clubs then?"
I used to respect you before you started al this ducking and divng Dave, I really did

More nasty insulting Rag - ah well - beats thinking I suppose

"The thing about 'sharp practice' and 'con' artists is that they are motivated by a deaire to make money."
Vonning is deceiving Al - nothing to do with making money (I've never mentioned it)
You are pretending to be something you are not and are daamaging a very important of people's culture
What you are involved in is identity theft - no more, no less - and you don't care what damage your hostile takeover has done
That saddens me
Another appeal to peoples' better nature down the tubes, I suppose
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 02:36 PM

The thing about 'sharp practice' and 'con' artists is that they are motivated by a deaire to make money.

I can honestly say that I cannot think of one club organiser who is motivated by financial gain. Really ...not one.

Folk music of the kind that you value has not fallen into my hands. I've never been a fan but I've recognised some of its strengths. However it has nothing for me as a singer/songwriter.

However many folk based music forms - blues; jazz; country music; poets like Noyes, Auden, Coleridge who use the ballade form; music hall artists; ragtime guitarists; have influenced the synthesis that I arrived at and which generally a modern audience can relate to.

The essential problem about your variety of folk music is that a lot of modern audiences cannot relate to it. There are artists who try to interpret traditional folk music to audiences and I respect that, but I'm not sure that you do.

I think anyone who tries to make that interface with a contemporary folk audience has respect when they see it being done with skill and sensitivity. They have come through the destructive civil war of traddy versus contemporary that emptied the folk clubs, and there has been a realisation that we are all folk. We have a common aim.

Catch up.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 02:28 PM

Raggy - Did you put them on? Can you see the truth now? I hope so

I'm not sure whether to start another thread or put my questions here. It's both relevant but at the same time tangential.

From my end I don't have the same urge to polarise discussion that people seem to love here. And when I saw voice of the people I thought I was on a Brexit thread. It has the same passion to be RIGHT rather than to discuss. Jim, this is NOT directed at you - it is more general.

And I have just relistened to Walter Pardon from 1982 and realised that he was only a couple of years older than I am now. Also realised that I've played various of those songs in different guises over time in various styles. It's the song at the end of the day

While I ponder it here's something a bit lighter - one of my favourite music based cartoons EVER


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 02:06 PM

I was driving through Miltown Malbay yesterday and I found a pair of rose-tinted blinkers, does anyone know who may have lost them?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 02:02 PM

With respect it is Jim who has got this constant need to go back to the definition he prefers of "folk song" and no matter what sensible way anyone tries Jim will try to trip up people who do not agree that life has moved on and folk song definition is not what he still wants it be!

No point carrying on this thread as according to Jim the title is a misnomer Or perhaps WE are all out of step and not answering the question (as he sees it) gawd 'elp us


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 01:51 PM

Just who is using the term folk song if it is not the folk clubs then?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 01:50 PM

".so we both now accept that the internet is the future of folk preservation and passing on..."
Fuck all of the kind.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM

" it just petulance that makes you keep harping on about them then?"
You are not responding to what I am saying Dave - I've long got used to that
I AM SAYING THAT THE DISHONESTY OF USING THE TERM "FOLK SONG" IN THE WAY IT IS BEING MISUSED IS DAMAGING THE PEOPLE'S MUSIC AND HELPING SILENCE THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE
I really can't put it more plainly than that
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 01:16 PM

But, but, but...

I'm not interested in the Club scene any more - I'm beyond caring about that

Is it just petulance that makes you keep harping on about them then?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 01:09 PM

""
How many times do I have to repeat this Dave
Because the sharp practice being carried oty by clubs using the term folk is endangering the future of folk song
It doesn't matter that I now no longer visit them - I and thousands like me stopped doing this because we felt we were being conned - you are telling me I have no right to demand folk songs when I go to a folk club
Out of the mouths of babes.....
This gets utterly ridiculous
"Kitchens, travellers vans and fires. No?"
??????????????????
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM

Jim, if you are not interested in folk clubs, why are you so scathing as to how they are run? You freely admit you do not visit them. You now say you are not interested in them but you repeatedly tell us they are shit. Why is that?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 12:42 PM

"I'm not interested in the Club scene any more - I'm beyond caring about that, but I am interestierd in preserving and passing on folk music,"

hold on a sec.. that's worth repeating...

"I'm not interested in the Club scene any more - I'm beyond caring about that, but I am interestierd in preserving and passing on folk music,"...

Jim - Right then.. WE... me and you are just about in total agreement...

I've never really been interested in folk clubs...

..so we both now accept that the internet is the future of folk preservation and passing on...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 12:29 PM

...goes against the philosophy of all public performances.
If that's your attitude stay at home and sing in your kitchens"


I don't get this I thought 'traditional singers' were the ones who learned their songs in the family and in their communities. Kitchens, travellers vans and fires. No?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 12:01 PM

"Why do you feel that your definitions should prescribe folk music for us?|"
You do that by referring to yourself as folk - if that's not what you are doing you are not only conning your audience but you are damaging the music/song
Surely you can see that ?
You wouldn't sell apples and call them potatoes - why on earth should you call something folk and and then sell something else
I'm not interested in the Club scene any more - I'm beyond caring about that, but I am interestierd in preserving and passing on folk music, which I beliebve to ve an extremely important part of our (working people's) culture and history

"folk" is for performers, by and large and not for punters
THat is arrogant and elitist Ray and goes against the philosophy of all public performances
If that's your attitude stay at home and sing in your kitchens - please read what I've just written to Al
At least we are at last getting to what has gone wrong with the folk song scene
When MacColl said folk music would die when it fell into the hands of people who didn't like it or care about it I told him I thought that would never happen
You arwe proving me wrong - it has happened
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:41 AM

Jim ~ folk music as it was in the old days of thriving folk clubs was a different animal than it is today ~ audiences/customers and floor singers and guests are no longer "separate" entities ~ the life blood is in those who attend and more often than not attenders at sessions where paying guests are not actually needed ~ the audience do not pay and there are no "Stars" as such

Simply put currently "folk" is for performers, by and large and not for punters ~ the scene is complex and will and does differ ~ the thrust here is to look at how the more traditional scene is and how people would like it to be

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM

The point is Jim that you don't seem to grasp the function that folk clubs perform for us, and what we regard as folk music.

Why do you feel that your definitions should prescribe folk music for us?

You say that you want to make folk music available to future generations. Okay, you've told us where it is, If we want it, we'll know where to look.

Mean while, this generation has its own story to tell. And theres quite enough negativity for young songwriters, instrumentalists and dancers without theminence gris of the folk world pitching in.

I don't know why you stopped a thread about you either. The snatches of info you have revealed about yourself have been intriguing - I'm sure a lot of people would have been interested.


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:43 AM

" for pities sake Jim, please, you are a total pain!"
Still doesn't answer the points I am making Ray - perhaps your pain is self-inflicted
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM

Jim - I seriouly need some sleep..

but, before I do.. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick again..
..actually I'm pretty certain of it..

"Interesting ~ possibly indicative of the need for folksong to be integrated into main stream acoustic music to survive in concert clubs??"

It seems obvious to everyone else, that Ray was posing a question referring to the guest list over 20 years
of one specific acoustic club way off on the somerset coast..

It is founded as an Acoustic Club - but the organisers seem to have been sneaking in real Folk guest artists,
to entertain and test out the general acoustic membership.
This appears to be a strategy that is working positively for folk.
Folk is being introduced in a positive way to a mainstream acoustic club membership...

So now that has been cleared up for you,
what's your complaint now going to be about that...

right I'm definitely off for a much needed sleep now...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM

"Interesting ~ possibly indicative of the need for folksong to be integrated into main stream acoustic music to survive in concert clubs??

~ traditional song unless packaged will be squeezed out, maybe ~

certainly folk festivals tend to still cater more for traditional song, yet presenting more contemporary artists in the trad style"

This was my quote above ~ note the concert clubs and the double question marks, please

Once again I fell I am being constructive and commenting on the title question as above ~ as to how I find the scene is currently ~ for pities sake Jim, please, you are a total pain!

Ray


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:33 AM

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:39 AM

...the gold we spun has been turned to shit...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

...Nobody is knocking any kind of music here...


Can you genuinely not see how saying the music you like has been turned to shit is knocking modern music? I saw your first statement as being very disparaging of what happens in today's folk clubs. Does 'turned to shit' mean something else to you?


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:24 AM

"Jim - It's getting hard to make out who you are talking to,"
I'll talk to anybody who listens PFR
Folk must be struggling to survive if the folk scene no longer knows what it is; how can it possibly be otherwise ?

I was brought back here by the statement
"possibly indicative of the need for folksong to be integrated into main stream acoustic music"
THat it totally irrelevant if it doesn't mean tying it to a dying industry - what else does "mainstream" man
I've described the structure, function and origins of folk song (as documented)
If my analysis is wrong then it's up to those who think that say where
All this shadow boxing is getting nowhere
How can a music that cannot be defined possibly be "healthy"?
I know what it is, many thousands like me used to know what it is, if it has become something else - what has it become ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM

.. I suppose I could have extended that metphor to..

"Some folks don't like either mash or chips.. fair enough..
Rice and pasta are good too..
Just as long as nobody thinks everybody should only eat raw spuds
with muck from the field still on 'em..."...


ooh.. A packet of Smash anyone...??? aahhh the 1970s...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 AM

Jim - It's getting hard to make out who you are talking to,
and what you are trying to get at..???

I said your idea of the predatory music industry is outdated..
That dreaded music industry as you remeber it, is struggling to survive..

I didn't say folk is struggling to survive..

I don't think it's as unhealthy as you do..

To the best of my memory, nobody here has said "folk is no longer relevant"...???

I don't see it in your combative terms of folk versus other forms of music...

I like mash potato, and I like chips..
A nice treat is to have both on the same plate smothered in gravy and chilli sauce..

That's my metphor for today..

now I'm off for a mid day kip...


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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

"Jim. You have said in the past that you no longer listen to modern music as it all sounds the same to you"
I'm not dismissive of it Dave - I say it has nothing to do with the folk scene
"What's left of it is struggling to survive..."
Than to put folk song into that situation would be like taking the passengers out of the lifeboats and putting them back on the Titanic
What's your point ?
Folk song has entertained people more or less up to the end of the 20th century in Britain
If you believe it no longer can - but you need to stop calling what is happening on the scene 'folk' to give future generations a chance to get the pleasure out of it that we did
Nobody is knocking any kind of music here (except those who say folk is no longer relevant)
All music genres would die if you started replacing it with something else because you no longer like it
That's simple logic
Jim


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