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BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings

robomatic 07 Sep 19 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 19 - 02:31 PM
Iains 07 Sep 19 - 02:36 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Sep 19 - 03:37 PM
DMcG 07 Sep 19 - 04:34 PM
robomatic 07 Sep 19 - 04:44 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Sep 19 - 07:14 PM
DMcG 08 Sep 19 - 02:01 AM
DMcG 08 Sep 19 - 02:05 AM
The Sandman 08 Sep 19 - 02:53 AM
The Sandman 08 Sep 19 - 02:56 AM
The Sandman 08 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM
The Sandman 08 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM
The Sandman 08 Sep 19 - 04:30 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 19 - 04:39 AM
DMcG 08 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM
The Sandman 08 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 19 - 08:40 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Sep 19 - 11:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 19 - 08:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Sep 19 - 08:49 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 19 - 09:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Sep 19 - 10:20 PM
The Sandman 09 Sep 19 - 01:13 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 19 - 03:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 19 - 03:28 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Sep 19 - 04:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 19 - 05:22 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM
Iains 09 Sep 19 - 05:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 19 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 19 - 07:22 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM
Raggytash 09 Sep 19 - 08:31 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 19 - 08:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 19 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 19 - 09:17 AM
Iains 09 Sep 19 - 09:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM
Rain Dog 09 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 19 - 10:51 AM
Rain Dog 09 Sep 19 - 11:13 AM
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Subject: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:28 PM

The New York Times has an opinion piece centered on Dominic Cummings, who is probably unknown to the bulk of Americans even if they are concerned with the current pandemonium regarding Brexit in the U.K.

He is apparently a man of the single idea.

The author of the New York Times article mentions:

"Mr. Cummings, a spindly, socially diffident, unsmiling figure, spoke next. He was emphatic, evocative. He talked about pride, independence, nationhood, sovereignty, dignity, making our own laws and decisions.

I detested Brexit and all it stood for, but I was captivated. Mr. Cummings was making it sound like the noble path. I came home anxious and uneasy. Remainers were way ahead in the polls, but would they come up with something effective to combat the deep emotions that Mr. Cummings’s campaign was tapping into?

They never did. Mr. Cummings went on to drive Brexit, pushing it to a narrow victory against huge internal opposition, by focusing aggressively on what worked. He outwitted Britain’s establishment by combining a brilliantly simple slogan — “Take back control” — with shameless lies about the European Union, the National Health Service and the danger that Turks could soon emigrate to Britain en masse, all backed up by a huge and hidden microtargeted social media campaign. Every element was designed to have a powerful, visceral appeal.

Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact.


I think Cummings is portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch in last year's movie: "Brexit - The Uncivil War."


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:31 PM

Anarchist !!!
Gives a bad name to Syndicalism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:36 PM

He probably learnt his trade by studying the antics of Alastair Campbell, the Downing Street Director of Communications and spokesman for the Labour Party under bliar blair. The man who insisted Dr Kelly be named and shamed, and who sexed up dodgy dossiers of WMD to take us to war in Iraq. Dominic Cummings has a long and winding road to follow in order to equal Campbell in infamy.


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

”Cummings went on to drive Brexit, pushing it to a narrow victory against huge internal opposition, by focusing aggressively on what worked. He outwitted Britain’s establishment by combining a brilliantly simple slogan — “Take back control” — with shameless lies about the European Union, the National Health Service and the danger that Turks could soon emigrate to Britain en masse, all backed up by a huge and hidden microtargeted social media campaign. Every element was designed to have a powerful, visceral appeal.

Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact.”


And the indoctrinated half-wits, on this forum and elsewhere, still turn themselves inside-out in their efforts to defend the indefensible. You really could not make it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

oh well if you say we're halfwits BWM, we'll definitely take your word for it.

I regularly write to my MP and he understands my concerns, even if doesn't agree with me. You willfully misunderstand and then sling insults around. If anything loses another referendum for the Remainers- which is looking quite likely this week - it will be their rudeness.


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 03:37 PM

There are as many insults hurled around by Leavers as there are by Remainers Al - the most abusive and insulting poster on this forum is one of your lot, a Leaver.

I’ve never made death-threats against Leavers the way they have against me and many other Remainers, Al. I’ve mentioned it before - several times - and you haven’t responded even once.

And you really do need to grow a skin, and stop taking things said as generalities personally - if I’d wanted to insult you, I would have directed my comment at you personally, but I didn’t and I didn’t. But if you wish to identify yourself as one of the ‘indoctrinated half-wits’, and choose to be ‘offended’, there’s nothing I can do to stop you.

So - any comment on the piece I quoted in italics, or are you only interested in picking a fight with me...yet again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 04:34 PM

I think Al is partially right: rudeness, from whoever to whoever, hardens opinion, it does not change it. But I disagree that it is most likely reason: I think few remainers have genuinely tried to understand the reasons people voted leave. Too often it is only asked to get a reason to insult (racist! Stupid!) rather than to find out what motivates people who do not fall into such simple categories. There is no point repeating arguments that were not convincing first time around. Remainers need to show remaining is a better answer to those concerns than leaving. Unless it does that, it will fail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 04:44 PM

The photo of Cummings in the NYT piece makes him look, to me, scary crazy even more bughouse than Wayne LaPieere (of the American NRA).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 07:14 PM

Whilst I appreciate your efforts to understand leavers, DMcG (and, dammit, I've tried...), I do things like listen to Question Time and Any Answers (did you listen to today's, fer chrissake...), and attend to the cheap telly vox pops that the Beeb indulges in, and I'm afraid that there's no other conclusion to be reached than that the huge majority of leave voters are uninformed, quite likely racist and, at best, have an extremely superficial understanding of our politics. They are thereby suckered in by the likes of the Sun, Mail and Express and, by dint of their ignorance, are easy meat for right-wing populism. To me, that's how it is, and it goes a bloody long way towards explaining why the Tories, after everything, are still ahead in the polls...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:01 AM

Yes, Steve, but we don't have to deal with the majority of Leavers. I have no idea how accurate it was, but in the dramatisation of Cummings with Benedict Cumberbatch the point was made that there were committed Remainers, and there was no point wasting the Leave team wasting effort there. Nor was there much point preaching to the already committed Leavers. All the focus needed to be on the undecided. And remember in the last referendum it only needed around 2% of the people who voted to swing the result, and of course far less than that of the whole population. So no matter how many there are on either side who will not change their view, they are not the critical ones.

Of course, time marches on, and it is extremely hard to predict what all the effects of changes in demographics, the sorry saga of the past few years, and what might happen during a campaign but I don't think either side can assume it will be anything other than a struggle with an uncertain outcome. So I see no point in alienating anyone unnecessarily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:05 AM

Or to put it another way, I am not saying understand the opposition to be nice. I am saying understand them as a means to win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:53 AM

if anyone has read Diary of a Nobody Cummings is like his name sake, an insiinficant twerp who has risen above his station, he does not know if he is coming or going[ cummings or gowings=.
His contributions to the bigger picture of history will be as significant as being savaged by a dead sheep. he appears tro have a serious drink problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:56 AM

itis difficult to understand someone who his actions are fuelled by too much alcohol, most of the time he seems to be unfit to be able to drive a car himself let alone drive an economy


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM

Cummings is a political vandal a negative force whose destruction seems to be fueeled by bottles of booze


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM

It has to be understood that there were some leavers who did not vote for leave with a no deal, Denis Skinner has always been opposed to europe. i do not know how he voted, but i am sure he is opposed to leaving without a deal


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

I have also tried to understand the leave logic, DMcG, and have asked extensively on here and elsewhere why they voted as they did. A simple summary of the responses is

1. Control immigration
2. Not be bound to EU laws
3. Not be controlled by unelected beurocrats
4. Not pay into Europe
5. The EU is corrupt and inefficient

When I point out that 1, we do control immigration, 2, we help to create and approve those laws and 3, we elect the EU parliament, I am met with, at best, silence or, at worse, abuse. Point 4 could be valid. We do pay more in than we take out financially but I believe the non monetary benefits outweigh that. Point 5 may be true but we stand no chance of changing that if we leave and will still have to deal with them. I have not, to date, had any response to my last 2 points.

Some of my closest friends are leavers. I know they are not stupid. I do believe however that they have been conned by masters at the game. No shame in that. Those masters are still at it. They have no response to the predictions of dire consequences so it is all labelled project fear. They cannot address the genuine fears of remainers so they label them traitors and rebels. So, full circle, back to "Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact." Sad but true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, DMcG. Focusing on the undecided seems to be something that the devious and the possessors of ulterior motives are much better at than the honest and straightforward. The devil has all the best tunes, the leaver-liars had all the best slogans and we never seem to see that coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:30 AM

Dave, good points ,there is much to be critical of about the EU. FIRST originally we voted to join something different,.. the common market. HOWEVER points 1,3,5,also apply to the uk.
I am opposed to leaving the uk without a deal. from a purely personal point of view, I prefer to remain in europe.if however the uk were to leave and be in a similar position to Norway, that would not be as harmful in an economic sense[ for bothe the uk and ireland] as leaving without a deal.
point 2 .well there are good and bad european laws, but right now I TRUST the Eu to be more socially democratic than a conservastive controlled independent uk. in view of that I prefer europe, and if i get a chance to vote on a second referendum would vote remain


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:39 AM

From The Observer today.

The message Johnson wanted to convey was that the MPs’ attempts to block no deal were taking the heat off Brussels. During an hour of discussions, [Greg] Clark asked for some specific details on particular issues and Johnson said someone from his office would get back to him. Later that day, Clark received a phone call from Johnson’s closest aide, Dominic Cummings, which failed to provide answers. Instead Clark found himself on the end of a foul-mouthed tirade.

According to sources aware of the exchange, Cummings bawled at him, saying: “When are you MPs going to realise that we are leaving on 31 October?” before adding: “We are going to fucking purge you.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM

It seems very likely that the theme of the leave side in a further referendum will either be "Tell them again" or "People versus Parliament". Neither line says anything whosoever about whether being the EU is beneficial, or even anything about the EU at all. So it would be very easy for remain to campaign on the wrong ground. That is the kind of thing I mean when I say we need to addressing the things that people are being energised about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM

to con tinue, if there was a genuine chance of a socialist independent uk , that would be preferable ,but i do not think the establishment will allow that to ever happen, so i find remaining in Europe a slightly better option.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM

The Times this morning suggests that Cummings is more interested in destroying the Labour Party than he is about Brexit Corbin has him and his ilk scared shitless enough to destroy Britain rather than let Labour win
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:40 AM

Amber Rudd has said that the Government is no longer attempting to get a deal on Brexit - "90+% of its efforts are now concentrating on crashing out of Europe without a deal"
A
She describes the sacking of 21 MPs as "an assault on decency and democracy" - she gives this as a reason for her resignation

A matter of business:
Can I suggest that we now use this thread for the Brexit discussion rather than wait for the other one to reach the basement each time we want to post
It seems to cover all the angles
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 11:33 AM

Get Ready for No-Deal Brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM

1. Control immigration
2. Not be bound to EU laws
3. Not be controlled by unelected beurocrats
4. Not pay into Europe
5. The EU is corrupt and inefficient

When I point out that 1, we do control immigration, 2, we help to create and approve those laws and 3, we elect the EU parliament, I am met with, at best, silence or, at worse, abuse. Point 4 could be valid. We do pay more in than we take out financially but I believe the non monetary benefits outweigh that. Point 5 may be true but we stand no chance of changing that if we leave and will still have to deal with them. I have not, to date, had any response to my last 2 points.

Some of my closest friends are leavers. I know they are not stupid. I do believe however that they have been conned by masters at the game. No shame in that. Those masters are still at it. They have no response to the predictions of dire consequences so it is all labelled project fear. They cannot address the genuine fears of remainers so they label them traitors and rebels. So, full circle, back to "Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact." Sad but true.


Just once more. (point 1) We do not have control of immigration (from EU) freedom of movements prevents this.

(point 2) Self-explanatory


(Point 3) The bureaucrats in the EU who are unelected, are the only ones permitted to put forward new legislation. It doesn't really matter if we get the option to put a minority vote against them. We cannot put forward new legislation, and any suggested legislation which does not fit the mindset of the EU just doesn't get put forward.


(point 4) again, self-explanatory. We are one of the few countries making a positive financial contribution to the EU.


(point 5) The EU has failed to get its budget 'signed off' by auditors in many years. A business with that record would not be permitted to trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:34 PM

Bunch of lies, Nigel, and you know it.

First, immigration. We have total control, if we want it, over non-EU immigration. Yet non-EU immigration routinely exceeds EU immigration. Care to explain?

Next, EU laws. We are bound only by laws concerning food standards, animal welfare standards and the rest that are not only rather good laws (chlorine chicken, anyone?) but which we have wholeheartedly agreed with. We have wholeheartedly agreed with over 95% of EU laws and regulations over the last 30 years, abstained on about two percent and been outvoted on the rest, most of that "rest" being pretty trivial. In general, most EU regulations are unanimously agreed to without the need to go to a vote. That is, agreed to by 28 countries, Nigel. In the case of important issues that we may wish to disagree with, we, as a large EU nation, have the veto. For example, there can never be an EU army whilst we are members because we have vetoed it. Finally on this point, the EU has no control over our domestic laws, none whatsoever. They can't control our policies on taxation, housing, health service, education, welfare, policing and the rest.

Next, "unelected bureaucrats." Yes, the Commission (in which we are intimately involved) suggests policy. But that can't be executed without the express consent of the European Parliament, which is an ELECTED body (did you vote, Nige?). As you say, the bureaucrats can "put forward" legislation. But that's all they can do. You appear to think that we're stupid enough to think that "put forward" means the same thing as "agree to" or "execute." Tough shit, Nigel. You may be hoping that the electorate in general are stupid enough to swallow that lie, but some of us here on Mudcat can see right through you, old bean.

Next, the money. Well, we were lied to about the amount we pay in, as you know, but yes, we do make a net contribution as one of the richest economies in the world. But, Nigel, our overall EU financial involvement is about one percent of our GDP. For that, we get to help poorer EU countries in order to enable them to continue to run themselves according to high standards in terms of democracy, human rights and the rule of law, the sort of thing that has kept the peace across Europe for the last seventy-five years, and, in return, we get assistance for the poorer regions in the UK and massive subsidies for our farmers. The net deficit is tiny in comparison with our overall GDP and we get lots in return in terms of standards and security. A small price to pay, some would say. And a bloody small price compared with what we'll be paying if we crash out. Think tariffs, Nige...

Next, budget not signed off. This is blatantly untrue. Last time I comprehensively dealt with that was with Teribus donkeys' years ago. I'm not going to keep countering blatant lies, Nigel. I'll be charitable to you on this occasion and assume that you haven't actually looked it up, rather that you've swallowed a bit of propaganda from somewhere or other.

Keep trying, Nigel, but do try not to keep casting yourself as a brexiteer desperado. If you think we're better out, give us your reasons, but stop wailing about what we all know is by far the best setup for the UK, imperfect though it is, which is to stay in. Your challenge is to give us the good news about life outside the EU. We're waiting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:49 PM

The main reasons I vote leave is that I do not believe our position is sustainable within the EEC.

Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power. they are observably doing us down at every juncture.

BWM always blames the fact that about 75% of cars on our roads before we went in were of British manufacture and now they're not - on being the result of our lousy government. But what complexion of government could have made it work. We've had everything from Wilson, who had bona fide communists (with the Spycatcher gang waging war against them) right up to Thatcher who was just a bit right of Mussolini.

I think you have to accept that the motives of Johnson etc have little of the public interest at heart. But fuck it - we need out - while theres still a fish in the waters round our coast, while theres still the remnants of an industrial workforce in the north.

You point out that there is some conspiracy going on with Trump. But there are some bloody dodgy characters in your camp. Major the who masterminded the ERM business. Blair - nuff said. then there are these sinister millionaires who seem to be actively engaged whilst keeping a low profile. Web millionaires, who probably make more money in a morning than I've done in a lifetime.

I don't know why you have no doubts about your position. certainly I have doubts about mine. but I see no convincing answers - I just get told I'm a half wit, a racist, unintelligent....which may be true, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 09:06 PM

"Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power. "

Just not true, Al. I don't know where you're getting that from. With respect, you appear to be dealing with received wisdom. Read my last post and feel free to counter, with facts, what I said. The EU is no less democratically accountable than is our own government. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the EU consists of 28 fiercely nationalistic countries. That's very healthy. The EU operates on the basis of mutual consent. And if we don't agree on massively important issues, we have the veto. These are the facts of the matter, Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 10:20 PM

No Steve, the information is I'm dealing with is not received other than receiving the self evident facts before my eyes.

the countries in the EU have their own citizens to look after which they do with a zeal, alien to the patricians of Westminster.

What is quite evident when talking to my MP is that central government feels it has a blank cheque once elected. they're like Henry VIII , having signed a death warrant. they do what the fuck they like.   think of how Thatcher, once she had the constituencies in her pocket that would retain her power, the rest of the country could go hang and be pillaged at will.

Ask yourself - why in God's name a gang of twats over in Europe would feel themselves more accountable or less. the statospheric salaries we pay often to people unable to run a whelk stall in English politics really tells its own story.

Anyway I see no reason for bitterness, abuse, and insult. In a way, we are all victims of the situation that we find ourselves in. If there is a way through this chaos, it will be found by more divergent thinkers than the loudmouth gang currently in the House of Commons. Perhaps the first important step would be making a rule that when the speaker is speaking -everyone else shuts up and listens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:13 AM

ACCORDING TO THE GUARDIAN.British shellfish sales to the EU (mostly France and Spain) are worth £430m a year – more than a quarter of all UK fish exports by value. They are vital to small-scale fishermen in Scotland and the West Country. They will be devastated overnight if the UK loses paper-free access to the EU single market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:03 AM

NIgel's claims seem to have dropped the actual benifits on fisheries and farming they once did - they are now almost entirely based on unproven and largely unmeritd negative claims

"EU" laws are rules agreed mutually by by members of any organisation - they are not laws and they are changeable by those members
They are not made by faceless beurocrats, they are devised and agreed on by the members for the benefit of their own states
Britan has its own version of Rules and regulations for exactly the same reason
"nelected bureaucrats" - everything we doo is governed by rules made by "unelected bureaucrats" - safety, trade, working conditions.....
This is amorphously meaningless
You pay of the upkeep of everything you join - we are at present being asked to pay for Trump's Wall - if we refuse he will refuse to trade with us
Unsubstantiated corruption and efficianecy is a nonsensical suggestuion
C and I exists everywhere in and out of Europe - from our parliament to the overuse of the plastics which is helping destroy our planet
Within an organisation lke Europe it is possible to expose and control these thisngs - outside it is not
These are absolutely pathetic excuses and justifications grabbed from the ait=r, not reasoned out arguments

That immigration should be at the top of your list says everything that needs to be said about Brexit
Immigration in no way contributes to the problems of the UK and it has bnever nbeen claimed other than by fundamentalists of the like of the NF, the BNP and Ukip, that it has
There are no faxcts and figures behind this disgusting claim, on the contrary, the establishment itself has produced arguments of the beneficial aspects of emigration
One of the facts that has emerged during Brexit is that our science and medicine =industries will be be severely hit if scientists from abroad are not allowed to work freely in Britain
Britain is one of the leading nations to create the conditions which have caused the need of foreigners to leave home
We have financed, armed, and politically supported despots in countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other parts of the Middle East and Africa
We are part of the demand for oil that is a major contributor to the conflicts that are creating mass immigration and refugeeism
We fill our shops with goods produced under slave-like conditions - we are a part of a new, international slave-trade that has brought about an economic migration of massive proportions
It is inhuman and totally immoral to suggest we should not be part of something we are feeding and have come to rely on
But thank you for confirming that this is totally based on keeping people out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:28 AM

Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power. they are observably doing us down at every juncture.

The EU parliament is elected, just like the UK one is. Our own representatives have more say in what goes on in Europe than most of the other countries. The are not only answerable but totally replaceable. You have been sold a lie, Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:04 AM

”BWM always blames the fact that about 75% of cars on our roads before we went in were of British manufacture and now they're not - on being the result of our lousy government.”

That’s a lie, Al, as you very well know. Disagree with me by all means, but don’t demean yourself by stooping to barefaced lies.

What I’ve actually said - on several occasions - is that the decline of British industry was due to a complex set of circumstances, amongst which were...

1) Poor industrial relations
2) Under-investment by businesses
3) Short-sighted, complacent managements who believed that the customers would always ‘buy British’, no matter the quality (or lack of it) of the product
4) During the Thatcher years, a government policy which was designed to destroy TU power.

”But what complexion of government could have made it work. We've had everything from Wilson, who had bona fide communists (with the Spycatcher gang waging war against them) right up to Thatcher who was just a bit right of Mussolini.”

And if that’s the case, exactly how was it the fault of the ECM/EEC/EC/EU?

You’re a victim of your own prejudices, reinforced by the lies of Dom & Dumber, and the cabal of tax-dodging multi-millionaires driving and controlling the entire Brexit campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:22 AM

Its their fault because they have entered into an agreement with a party - that they have no intention of respecting - how ever they were approached and by whom.

its our fault - because a generation of plonkers (who could see very plainly that Edward Heath was Mr English twit personified) still went and voted for him.

And Jim it has fuck all to with keeping people out. It has much to with respecting the wishes of the coastal communities and northern communities of industrial workers, whose efforts supplied much of the wealth of this country and virtually all the political support for the party who made the place liveable in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM

One more time then:

"Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power."

EU policy and regulations are agreed either by consensus among 28 states (better be pretty uncontroversial before THAT can be achieved, eh!) or by an ELECTED European Parliament. Constantly churning out the blatant lie that anything is forced on us by unelected, unanswerable people in Brussels, etc, will never make it more true. I can't think where your "self-evident" conviction can possibly be coming from. Not from reality, that's for sure. And again, ninety-nine percent of our economy, in terms of GDP, has nothing to do with the EU. As for the environment, tell me exactly how you think the EU is damaging or controlling it via unanswerable people then tell me why the Green Party is desperately trying to keep us in the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:49 AM

To get back on track I wonder what cunning wheezes the master of the dark arts Mr Cummings has for our delectation and delight today? He has just been joined by an Irishman as head of digital communications, to reach the parts that others cannot reach.

Magic grandad is slipping nicely in the polls, 10 points behind Boris, and that is not even counting the brexit party. They are chewing away nicely at all those northern labour heartlands.

Should be an interesting week in politics


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:15 AM

In the meanwhile Baldric has a cunning plan to send 2 contradictory letters to the EU.

BoJo to send contradictory letters

Where is this story from you ask. The Guardian, that hotbed of communist revolution maybe? No, that well known fascist bum-wipe, the Daily Heil.

Maybe Dom boy is in the pay of BoJo's enemies? Maybe it is a plan of the clowns ringmasters to make Tess of the Dumbervilles original plan look good after all?

Who knows. Still, unless something happens before parliament is suspended we will have to wait a month. Hopefully the prorogation of parliament will have shot BoJo in both oversize feet as well :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:22 AM

"And Jim it has fuck all to with keeping people out. "
I'm afraid it has Al - go dig out Farage's Rivers of Blood Poster and put it alongside the spike in racist incidents
We've been through all this coastal communities shit - they are now running scared about having no access to European waters
FISHING
The Northern industrial communities are set fair to be hit hardest by Brexit
HERE
DETAILED STUDY
The North supported it because Farage persuaded them that immigratants were taking their jobs (they would have added "and women", if they thought they could have got away with it)
Not one of you stoppers inners have been able to put forward a single, viable reason for leaving
You've allowed yourself to be conned Al
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM

Let's put it another way - we've ended up in the shit.

We need to try another route. If you are content with a situation where your tax money goes to buy police cars from Skoda - if you want to extend this sort of largesse to our European neighbours - fair enough, I can see why you're really happy this week.

Of course the EU will hit us with everything they've got when over 12% of their funding disappears. But we didn't get into this shit overnight, and sometimes you've got to take the high road.

BWM -of course no one invests in us. Why would they when EU policy sticks the kybosh in wherever is most painful.

Jim - would it be possible for you to stretch your mind back to when we had virtually an open door policy to Commonwealth citizens coming here to work. West Germany at the time at the time had a strict gasterarbeiter policy and once their usefulness was over they had to piss off. East Germany actually had a wall round it. These countries had some making up to do. Our histories do not really start from the same page.

Anyway what the the bloody point. there are never any sensible rebuttals just reworded insults. the self righteousness quotient of the Remainers is up there in the guzillions. the last time i remeber anything like this was when the trots stopped Callaghan from making a single campaign speech, so clever and superior was their knowledge. And of course it ended in tears - 18 years of Thatcher.

By frustrationg moderate opinion on this matter - you will usher in the period of Farage/ and Boris - -possibly the most right wing gang of bastards in the history of electable British politicians. Well done fellas. You victory is virtually complete. because it will come to an election and you will lose.

I never really understood those lines about Lester Maddox in rednecks by Rany Newman- till I saw Boris in extremis last week - 'he may be a fool, but he's our fool. If they think they're better than him . - they're wrong.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:31 AM

It may help you if you got the simple facts correct Al. Thatcher was in power for 18 years.

Almost every report into Brexit has said that the UK will be worse off out of the EU.

These reports come from many sources which have studied the probably outcome.

Reports from the Banking & Finance industry, the Medical industry, insurance industry etc etc have all said we will lose jobs, we will go into a recession, we do not have agreements in place to ensure food and medicine etc etc.

If I thought for one second that the UK would be better off I would vote for it, but the truth is we will damage ourselves. For decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:34 AM

Your opinions are neither particularly moderate nor particularly well-informed. In my opinion, of course. It makes for very frustrating exchanges with you at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:47 AM

You also think that east Europeans are more inclined towards criminality than others, Al. You were wrong about that as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:17 AM

"Let's put it another way "
Why not responds to the points made Al ?
You're beginning to behave like Theresa May did when she was faced with questions she couldn't answer
Are you sure you're not her in drag ?
The driving force behind Brexit was always stopping immigration - can you explain why that is not the case ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:21 AM

Parliament to be prorogued tonight. Goody!
Wot abaht that bill that went stratospherically through the commons and Lords last week.
It is still but a bill I believe and the green grass wherein it lies is a growing longer by the day

OH happy happy days!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM

well seeing as I'm not well informed or moderate - let's see whose predictions come to pass. You clever well informed people or me.

not long to wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM

What some of the remainers here appear to forget is the fact that there has always been a sizeable number of people who, never wanted to join in the first place and then never wanted to remain back in 1975.

I don't think that has ever changed. For whatever reason some people have never liked the idea of being in the EU and they never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM

So why should they have had THEIR second referendum whilst we are denied one and denigrated for even suggesting it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM

What predictions are those Al? Those that every economic, comercial and political agency are making that there will be a lot of hardship or those of yours that when we leave the EU we will go back to the heady days of the 1960s where the British car industry was the envy of the world?

BTW - Playing the passive/aggressive victem does not suit you in the slightest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:51 AM

"For whatever reason some people have never liked the idea of being in the EU and they never will."
Hey have had over forty years to protest or make their displeasure known in some way or other - not a murmer until someone promised to get rigd of the foreigners Rain Dog
Shows exactly how opposed they were, I would have thought
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:13 AM

Jim Carroll posted "Hey have had over forty years to protest or make their displeasure known in some way or other - not a murmer until someone promised to get rigd of the foreigners Rain Dog"

I don't know what part of the country you were living in Jim, but in the past 40 years I heard quite a few making their displeasure know. A fair amount of it in the media as well. There has ALWAYS been people who did not like being in the EU. I don't think that any of you can deny that.


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