mudcat.org: Brexit and music
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Brexit and music

Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 10:53 AM
Rain Dog 30 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM
Mr Red 30 Aug 19 - 11:59 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Aug 19 - 01:24 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:27 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Aug 19 - 01:40 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM
Roger the Skiffler 30 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 19 - 02:28 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 02:43 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,JoeG 30 Aug 19 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Observer 30 Aug 19 - 07:59 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 31 Aug 19 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,Akenaton 31 Aug 19 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Observer 31 Aug 19 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,akenaton 31 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,akenaton 31 Aug 19 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Observer 31 Aug 19 - 12:34 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM
Mr Red 02 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:46 AM
Jim McLean 02 Sep 19 - 03:57 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 04:56 AM
Jack Campin 02 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Observer 02 Sep 19 - 07:00 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 08:51 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM
Jack Campin 02 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Sep 19 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Observer 03 Sep 19 - 01:37 AM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Observer 03 Sep 19 - 02:46 AM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 19 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Sep 19 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Observer 03 Sep 19 - 12:38 PM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM
Mr Red 05 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Observer 05 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:53 AM

We have other Brexit threads. Can we keep this one absolutely on topic for music related issues? - i.e. mods, can any general political posts be deleted immediately?

I didn't realize the VAT issue was this bad:

https://www.rawmusictv.com/article/amp/2019/UK-bands-now-have-to-pay-import-duty-and-VAT-on-ALL-merchandise-before-even-entering-Europe-to-tour


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM

Of course we will have to wait and see what is finally agreed between us and the EU but it is going to be that bit more difficult taking goods into the EU. As of course it was before we became full members of the EU. People toured then and no doubt will tour again. Just not as carefree as it has been.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 11:59 AM

I think you will find it will be covered by online documentation where you declare it is for use not for sale. The paper process was in use even while we were in the EC. Certainly in 1985/6 I had to drive to Birmingham to get the document. Called a carnet. Everything has to be documented. Norway and Switzerland know this, and it is a pain. Serial numbers, descriptions, etc, etc.

I have been cracking-on about the return of needing a carnet ever since the referendum result was in. In this parish and in print in my columns in magazines.

And without the documentation you will be hit with import duty on return to the UK.

There will be other things crawling out of the woodwork. Income tax? The Rolling Stones used to (still?) specify they were met with a tax expert at the border!

There - not a mention of the "B" word.

(Oh and if you buy a guitar abroad, be sure to insist on a well used guitar case). Take an empty one with you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM

The other delightful thing about carnets? If your ferry or plane or whatever arrives at the customs post after the carnet office (at which you must check in, usually behind a long line of articulated lorries) is closed, Tough Cheese. You spend the night and wait, or else pay a fortune. Voice of experience (and a near-miss) on that one, trying to drive a concert harp though various European borders. Getting our car through the Berlin Corridor in (then) East Germany with all their police checks was easier. I'm not kidding.

And make sure you get the Right Kind of carnet - there are (or were in those days) a bunch of them. And they are HELL to fill out. Makes VAT forms look like kindergarten scribbling.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

I think the same kind of thing also applies to any merchandise you want to sell, if memory serves. Not sure, but make sure you find out before hauling out your CDs & T-shirts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:24 PM

Links don't always last, so try to include some context in case it disappears later. Jack's article is titled:

UK bands now have to pay import duty and VAT on ALL merchandise before even entering Europe to tour

    . . . No Deal Brexit is set to be a nightmare for everyone, including bands. This is all laid out in government documentation. . . . Good news, you even have to apply for a VAT number and apply for an EORI number which means, according to the Government's own website, “you may have increased costs and delays”. This will literally destroy any opportunity for UK artists and bands, mainly independent ones, to tour the EU. How many artists will be able to afford to pay their entire VAT and duty on merch before even selling it? On top of the costs already suffered by bands to tour the EU.


I've extracted just a bit to show the concerns for working musicians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:27 PM

It's not just merch, it's instruments too. Or was.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM

In the bad old days, you couldn't just SAY it wasn't for sale - you had to prove it with all the prior paperwork.

Only fun memory is, riding one time between Italy and Somewhere in a band bus with all our gear, and they raised violent objection to the bouzoukis. We couldn't understand what their problem exactly was, and the cross-language barrier didn't help. Finally the light dawned, when one of them mimed holding a machine gun and said "NO BOOM-BOOM-BOOM" over and over until we twigged.

He thought we meant bazookas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:40 PM

There is already much discussion of the future prospects on cross/Irish sea booking of artists over here in Ireland
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM

This would presumably mean that you get your CDs and t-shirts manufactured locally when you arrive. And try to find where you can hire a top-range well-maintained set of Highland pipes in Poland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM

Many of the jazz bands I see have international membership, a quartet can contain four different nationalities. I also know someone who played in a pan-European baroque ensemble based in UK now going to be based in Europe. Will Brexit make it more difficult for such productive cross-border collaborations?
RtS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM

A Baroque group has extra issues because of CITES. You won't be able to take a recorder made of rosewood or a flute with ivory rings across the border, at least not without very detailed provenance documentation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:28 PM

Not just Baroque groups. Violins, guitars, and many other instruments may contain protected species. My concertina contains rosewood and mahogany. There are supposedly relaxations for musical instruments but I'm still not clear what paperwork might be required or how much it might cost.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Yikes, that's right. I have an ivory-ringed treble recorder that I bought direct from von Huene back in my Boston days, which is way, way too good for me. It wasn't one of his own, but he had it for sale in his workshop; and when (on the advice of one of the wind students who had come with me and could really play) I chose it, VH said, "Wait a moment and I'll make it better for you." He then disappeared into the nether regions of his workshop, and all we could hear was this unnervingly ferocious banging. But it arrived back to me in one healthy piece, and I have it still.

I got it registered at Heathrow once, back in the days of yore, but God knows where THAT paperwork is. Fortunately, I can't play it well enough to need to worry. Got some mahogany harps tho...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Until and unless we have some sort of deal with the EU, we will probably need a visa.

Visas for third party nationals travelling to the Schengen Area

Unless something is done it will become too difficult or too expensive for many musicians in all genres to travel between the UK and EU. Only those who have already made it, and can command the fees to justify the administration costs, will be able to travel.

Will amateur musicians travelling with instruments to festivals, summer schools and workshops also need all this paperwork?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM

I was chatting to an instrument dealer the other day who told me he was planning to travel to Ireland shortly to get rid of a load of rosewood concertinas before import duty, VAT and CITES paperwork made it uneconomic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:43 PM

Ireland's not part of Schengen, for whatever comfort that may (or may not) offer.

Jim...? Any thoughts?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM

I assume that amateurs will have exactly the same customs and VAT issues as pros.

I didn't count, but I must have had more than 5000 pounds' worth of instruments with me when I went to Weimar this month for the Yiddish Summer klezmer events. No idea how I could do my usual thing at next year's if Brexit happens. I specialize in unusual kit you can't easily substitute, borrow or hire.

The reason we went on an Interrail trip round Europe in March was also because of Brexit, then due on March 31st. We had a cello in the house that belonged to Marion's son in Germany, who wanted to play it again. Bought by a very old relative 60 years ago for 5 pounds, it's now worth 5000. A lot of import duty. So we chaperoned it by rail from Scotland and went on to other places. Wouldn't have thought of doing ot otherwise.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:40 PM

So all looking good then ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:59 PM

I imagine the same rules applied to Alex Campbell and his contemporaries in the pre-EU membership days - They seemed not only to have survived it but to have thrived on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:45 AM

The thing they thrived on was the music, not the obstacles put in its way. I remember the carnet horror stories they all used to tell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 07:16 AM

If I remember correctly you couldn't keep the Scottish folkies out of East Germany and Scandinavia pre EU.
The Laggan I think had a No1 in East Germany, or so Arthur Johnstone told me one boozy night in Argyll.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:49 AM

You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's, Merchandise, etc., made. VAT is the EU wide tax that basically pays for the EU.

After leaving the EU the UK will be free to do one of three things with VAT.

1. They can leave it exactly as it currently stands and use the revenue raised to pay all former existing subsidies formerly received from the EU and pocket the surplus [The UK is the EU's second largest net-contributor after Germany] to squander as they see fit.

2. They can reduce the level of VAT wholesale or on whatever selected items they see fit thus reducing the price of many things but still taking in enough to pay former subsidies.

3. They could abolish it altogether, then of course bands, musicians, performers would have to render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's. This of course would only be on what they decided to take with them and they would not have paid any form of VAT on the items in the UK so they would have been cheaper to make in the first place.

As with all things in life it is usually a case of "swings and round-abouts".

Don't know that many bands now that do actually make money lugging vast numbers of CDs and merchandise about. For the music, streaming and downloading seems to be more the norm.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM

I suppose quite a few touring bands will be affected by VAT, a shameful tax which both discriminates against the poorest in society and is an impediment to individuals and groups expanding and prospering.
Perhaps when we leave the EU, VAT can lowered or abolished.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

We can't really blame the EU for indirect taxes. Until we joined the EU we had purchase tax, which VAT replaced. Almost the first thing Thatcher's first government did in 1979 was to raise the standard rate of VAT from 8% to 15%, which they didn't have to do. Currently, the minimum standard rate that EU countries must maintain is 15%. The UK's rate is 20%. The extra is our doing alone. Can't see brexit triggering a reduction somehow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:29 PM

"Time for bed",   said Zebedee.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:34 PM

VAT plus tariffs charged on goods coming into the EU from outside are what pays for the EU - so yes you can blame this indirect tax on the EU - it needs it to survive. As previously stated AFTER the UK leaves it can:

1. Keep it as is and nobody feels any different but the Government take in more revenue.

2. Reduce it just to cover present subsidy levels and to lower some prices.

3. Abolish it and lower the price of almost everything.

As the UK is currently still a member of the EU then no-one in the EU has the right to charge any UK band, musician or performer any additional VAT for bringing in CDs or merchandise to another EU country [Switzerland I know you do but then Switzerland is NOT an EU Country].

Again as previously stated as someone who has produced CDs you pay VAT plus royalties where applicable on every CD you make when you buy your first and subsequent production runs - you then charge a sum for each individual CD and you do not add VAT on top of that sum.

To address something in the post above - incoming Governments sometimes have to raise taxes due to the lamentable financial state they often find themselves inheriting - I cannot think of a single democratically elected government that raises taxes just for the hell of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM

I gave you the facts. No more from me. I'm respecting Jack's request to not politicise this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

Perhaps when we leave the EU, VAT can lowered or abolished.

Nothing certain except death and taxes. The answer will be NO! time will tell, I can wait. Import duty threshold was reduced to £15 - a stealth tax to pay for it. And IME they slap VAT on top of that. Outside of the EU there are no rules - look at the constitutional arguements now! Music is low on their agenda.

Copyright will be affected by Brexit, mostly through litigation, rather than any immediate change in the law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:13 AM

"Copyright will be affected by Brexit, mostly through litigation"
That shouldn't affect folk song which is in public domain then :-)
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

I have no idea whether it was the same in Britain, but in Ireland there was a European financial input into the arts which we were able to take advantage of on two occasions in order to make available our Traveller collection
I think the publication of Tom Munnely's Essays, 'The Singing Will Never Be Done', may have benefitted from that assistance.

This is how it works, according to Irish Arts Council literature

"Creative Europe Programme 2013 sees the launch of the new Creative Europe Programme, a continued commitment by the European Union to fund the creative and cultural sectors. Creative Europe will last for seven years from 2014 - 2020. The Creative Europe Programme will seek to help artists develop international careers and to foster international networks to create professional opportunities"

Without assistance such as this the Traditional Music Sene would not have been as healthy as it is
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:46 AM

FOLLOW-UP
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:57 AM

Nigel Denver and I travelled extensively throughout Europe and Scandinavia during the early 1960s, crisscrossing borders without any hassle with a guitar and bagpipes.The only time we had trouble was in Paris in 1961 when I was surrounded and pushed up against the wall by gendarmes who thought my (folded) bagpipes was a rifle.

Another point .. the rules don't apply between Nothern Ireland and the Republic so could one travel to Europe via the Irish Republic after entering through NI? Or is this affected by Shengen?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM

"Don't know that many bands now that do actually make money lugging vast numbers of CDs and merchandise about. For the music, streaming and downloading seems to be more the norm."

That's certainly not my experience. Younger audiences may prefer to download, but older people who make up a lot of folk audiences still prefer a physical product. Streaming a track on Spotify pays about $0.005, so unless you're a big name attracting millions of streams it takes a while to amount to anything. Of course digital is an important part of marketing, but it takes several months to achieve the same as a sale of a single CD. And until 3D printers become more widespread, it's difficult to download a Tshirt.

VAT is complicated as there are different rules for physical products and digital. Because we're below the VAT threshold we don't charge VAT on CD sales, but VAT is charged on digital sales - fortunately the digital vendors handle this.

For us, the cost and bureaucracy of having to make payments up-front would now discourage us from taking CDs abroad, instead we would encourage audiences to download or purchase online


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:56 AM

Crossing border has always depended very much on the whim of the customs officers. Some will wave you through, others will want to go through everything. I guess a solo musician travelling light will probably find it easier than a band with a van full of gear.

The other point to remember is that all these experiences of pre-EU travel were before CITES came into effect. Customs officers may now be interested in what your instruments are made from as well as what you intend to do with them. The proposed relaxations for musical instruments do not include Brazilian rosewood, which was widely used in guitars, so you may still the need the appropriate certificate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

I presume VAT applies to hotel stays in the same way it does to any other services? (I've been most aware of this in Turkey, where the rate is prominently posted at reception - "KDV Dahildir"). But within the EU you can presumably claim it back if it's a business-related expense as part of your tour. If you come from a country that isn't part of the EU VAT system, your accommodation will cost 25% more. And conversely - for an EU-based act, touring the UK gets more expensive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:00 AM

"the cost and bureaucracy of having to make payments up-front would now discourage us from taking CDs abroad"

Never, ever, have I, or any others that I know ever had to pay anything "up front" to take CDs abroad - Tours and festivals North America, Europe, Australia.

Never, ever had any problem with instruments either, in fact the only time I have ever seen a guitar case opened was once on our return to the UK from the USA where all the Customs Officer wanted to check on was that the instrument inside the case was not a brand new one being brought into the country. Once he saw the obvious signs of usage he simply closed the case and we carried on through.

CITES is a multi-national Treaty and neither the UK's Brexit or EU Regulation has, or will have any impact on it. Being the older international treaty it has precedence over anything the UK or Brussel's can introduce that could be seen as altering or amending CITES.

CITES coverage


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:51 AM

"Never, ever, have I, or any others that I know ever had to pay anything "up front" to take CDs abroad - Tours and festivals North America, Europe, Australia."

That's what is now being reported may happen, for example:

https://louderthanwar.com/post-brexit-uk-bands-may-pay-vat-import-duty-merch-leaving-country/

And here's a link to the Government guidance

"CITES is a multi-national Treaty and neither the UK's Brexit or EU Regulation has, or will have any impact on it. "

What will change is that up to now all movements within the EU have been regarded as internal and you don't require documentation simply to carry your instruments around, any more than you do within the UK. After Brexit, travelling to the EU will become a cross-border movement, and if your instruments contain protected species then the appropriate paperwork will be required.

Is there really a risk that your instrument will be confiscated? I don't know, but this article suggests that they have been in the past, although the exact numbers are unclear.

Instruments seized under CITES

There are proposals to relax the rules for musical instruments, but that won't include Brazilian rosewood. I for one won't be taking the chance.

Eventually when we get a deal with the EU (as we must) then maybe all this will be resolved. I wouldn't care to guess how long that might take.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM

"within the EU you can presumably claim (VAT) back if it's a business-related expense as part of your tour"

Won't that apply only if the band or musician is VAT-registered?   A very large number won't be.

So far as I am aware an ordinary consumer can't recover VAT on services abroad. This is different from purchases of goods, which can be bought VAT-free on the basis that you pay import duty and VAT on bringing it into your own country. However VAT is immensely complicated so I may be wrong.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM

You don't have to be a very big operation to be VAT registered, and it's advantageous if you are. The point where it becomes compulsory is in the small-business range.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:32 PM

So far as I am aware an ordinary consumer can't recover VAT on services abroad. This is different from purchases of goods, which can be bought VAT-free on the basis that you pay import duty and VAT on bringing it into your own country. However VAT is immensely complicated so I may be wrong.
Not quite. Goods can only be purchased VAT free (or the VAT subsequently reclaimed) by foreign travellers who will be taking the goods out of the EU (of course this will also apply to UK purchasers once we leave the EU as we will then be viewed as 'foreign travellers')


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:37 AM

" up to now all movements within the EU have been regarded as internal"

CITES was signed by national governments, AFAIK the EU is NOT a signatory [The EU is not a Government - although sometimes it thinks and acts as though it is]. Therefore if what you state is correct then those EU nations are in flagrant violation of the terms of this treaty [The UK certainly isn't according to the link you provided] .

The opening post contained a link which included the following statement - "UK-bands-NOW-have-to-pay-import-duty-and-VAT-on-ALL-merchandise-before-even-entering-Europe-to-tour" - Ehmmmm No they don't as far as European countries in the EU and EEA are concerned. The articles linked to to support this contention all say that this is what MAY happen in the future in which no deal is ever negotiated [UK could leave the EU on 31.10.2019 with no deal, but that does not mean that some form of a trade deal could not be negotiated at a later date].


CDs and T-Shirts appear to be neither "licenced or controlled" items as defined or detailed by the lists provided by the UK Government.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

Observer I note your comments but the reality is that as a general rule, no permits or certificates are needed for keeping or moving a specimen of a species listed in CITES Annex B, C or D inside the EU. See Section 2.2 of the
EU Guidance Presumably someone with greater knowledge than you and I has decided this is legal.

The UK government advises that"You will not be able to freely move or trade species listed in Annex A – D between the UK and the EU."

UK government guidance CITES after Brexit

Furthermore, you will only be able to move protected species through a designated entry point, which does not include Dover and Eurotunnel.

Yes, all this only applies if there is no new deal to cover these issues (a point I made earlier), and surely we must have a deal with the EU at some point. But it is unclear when this will be agreed or what it will say. In the meantime we are about to leave the EU and, unless things change dramatically in the next few weeks, without a deal. The likelihood is that, at least in the short term and possibly for an indeterminate period, these constraints will apply.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:46 AM

I take it that Section 2.2 applies only after compliance with what is stated in Section 2.1:

Internal trade in the EU includes trade within one EU Member State and trade between individual EU Member States. Due to the establishment of the EU single market, there are no border controls inside the EU and generally goods can be moved and traded freely inside the EU. However, this applies to specimens of species listed in Annex B, C or D only if they have been acquired and/or imported into the EU in accordance with the provisions of CITES, the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations and other legislation that may be applicable in an individual Member State. Specimens of species listed in Annex A are generally not allowed to be used for commercial purposes and their movement inside the EU is also subject to regulations

To those who are still awake - what is basically being talked about here by the EU is live specimens.

So Howard, on that clearly stipulated condition, specifically outlined by the EU Guidance I will stand by what I have said in my previous posts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:58 AM

Here's the MU guidance:

MU CITES update

MU travelling with an instrument

There have always been some relaxations for movement for personal use, including performance. What regulations apply depend on what protected species are used. In some cases a Musical Instrument Certificate is required - an "instrument passport". While we are in the EU an MIC is not required, this will change when we leave. We don't know whether the EU will be as rigorous as the US, but it would be unwise to assume they won't be concerned about it.

The regulations are about to be changed to make it even easier to move instruments, but this does not include Brazilian rosewood which is found in many guitars and other instruments.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 07:29 AM

The British government doesn't think it means live specimens. Here's one of their advice pages:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/souvenirs-and-endangered-species

That means the leopardskin apron the bass drummer in your regimental pipe band wears. Saying the leopard is dead doesn't let the Army off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:38 PM

Jack the link to EU Guidance given by Howard:

Permits, Certificates and Notifications

Documents needed for wildlife trade into, from and inside the EU
   
1. WILDLIFE TRADE INTO AND FROM THE EU
   1.1 Overview
   1.2 What types of documents for what purpose?
   1.3 Which document do I need?
   1.4 Where should I apply for an EU permit or certificate?
   1.5 What are the procedures and conditions for the issuance of an EU permit or certificate?
   1.6 General derogations from import and export conditions

2. INTERNAL TRADE IN THE EU
   2.1 Overview
   2.2 General provisions for internal trade of specimens of species listed in EU Regulations
   2.3 Regarding commercial use of specimens of Annex A listed species (Art. 8.1 of Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97)
   2.4 Exemptions and the use of EU internal trade certificates
   2.5 “Fast track” certificates – the use of pre-issued certificates
   2.6 Circuses and travelling exhibitions
   2.7 General exemptions and derogations for internal trade


DID deal mainly with animals and "live" animals at that. But I suppose that you would have actually have to have read it to glean that point.

Leopardskin aprons worn by Regimental Band Bass Drummers - Perhaps you should look at the age of them Jack. It is not as though orders are put in for hundreds each year. If the skin has already been cleared and is of an age that predates a certain point there is no problem with those items.

Most widely internationally travelled military band in the UK would be the Band of the Royal Marines - Bass Drummer in that wears a Tiger skin apron - no problems encountered so far.

Black Bearskins as used by Regiments of Foot Guards and the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards all come from cull killed Black Bears in Canada, that cull having been authorised by the Canadian Government in accordance with advice given each year by their Wildlife Department. They would not be subject to prohibition or restriction of movement. Not one single Black Bear gets shot to provide a Guardsman with a hat - those are a by-product, the Bear would be shot in any case.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM

Observer, the fact is that the international movement of instruments containing listed species of wood and other materials requires the appropriate paperwork. There are plenty of resources on the internet to support this - besides the turgid official government information, guitar, woodwind and violin journals have all carried articles, as have instrument retailers and dealers, and the MU. It is a well-known issue, in particular for travellers into the US, EU, Australia and Japan as they have the strictest enforcement measures.

Movement within the EU itself does not require this, because it is a single customs area. When we leave the EU the UK will no longer be part of that customs area, and we will need the documentation if our instruments contain the listed species. However if you believe you have found a loophole in CITES to avoid this then good luck to you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's,

Only while this country are in the EU &/or have a deal. As we have found recently, governments are not bound by reason, logic, honesty or moral constraints. Only expediency in garnering revenue to 1) pay for Brexshit 2) pay for the tax brides in hopes of success at the next election/by.

Import duty was lowered from £35 to £15 very quietly. Thus constituting a stealth tax. But in a "no deal" Brexshit would help pay for the mess. Until people wised-up, and by then they would buy from UK sources and import duty would have been paid anyway. Win Win, but still underhand.

FWIW Chinese operators on E-Bay often have UK registered addresses and charge what they charge but declare cost appropriate to their loss in the event of disaster en-route direct from China. eg Shoes that retail at £24 (UK address) were declared as $6 for customs (from China). (I bought as fun Shoes until I spoke to a non-folkie wearing non-red ones).

As has been stated, in the case of music/CD there is always the internet and MP3, which in the case of modern cars is the only way to play the songs anyway. But the philosophy is "grab the money while it is fresh in their hand/mind". And physical items are the only way, there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

Mr Red if you are going to quote from my post's please do fully and accurately. Full quote is as follows:

"You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's, Merchandise, etc., made."

VAT is the EU wide tax that basically pays for the EU. After leaving the EU the British Government have the following choices relating to VAT:

1. We retain it exactly as it is - no-one sees, or experiences any difference. The Government raises the money to continue paying every subsidy previously paid by the EU in addition the British Government retains what used to be our net-contribution to the EU's coffers [The UK after Germany is the largest net-contributor to the EU and has been for decades]

2. We retain VAT but reduce it, or we remove it on certain items to the extent that we can continue to pay every subsidy previously paid by the EU but there is now no additional money raised.

3. The UK can abolish VAT altogether and find other means (taxes) to subsidise whatever we want - Still less expensive than us paying into the EU.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 24 September 6:17 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.