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Persians

Mrrzy 29 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 07:47 AM
Iains 28 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 05:39 AM
David Carter (UK) 28 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 19 - 07:06 AM
Iains 27 Jul 19 - 06:50 AM
Jack Campin 27 Jul 19 - 02:01 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 26 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Jul 19 - 06:11 PM
wysiwyg 26 Jul 19 - 04:20 PM
Jack Campin 26 Jul 19 - 04:48 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jul 19 - 09:41 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 19 - 09:16 AM
Jack Campin 25 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 19 - 06:38 AM
Jack Campin 25 Jul 19 - 05:47 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 19 - 04:37 AM
Thompson 24 Jul 19 - 06:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 02:27 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Jul 19 - 02:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 24 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM
Iains 24 Jul 19 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM
robomatic 24 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM
Charmion 24 Jul 19 - 09:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 19 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 19 - 04:26 AM
Iains 24 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 19 - 02:49 AM
Ebbie 24 Jul 19 - 01:18 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 04:57 PM
robomatic 23 Jul 19 - 04:33 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 02:07 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM

I have the feeling, from talking to maybe a dozen individuals over a couple of decades, that folks who call themselves Persian here (Mrrica) do so to avoid what being labeled as Iranian brings. I think they take advantage of our general ignorance that way... Smart... And avoid a lot of bigotry. Iran has an arguably well-deserved reputation for antiMrrican terrorism.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 07:47 AM

I firmly believe that many of todays world problems are a hangover from the Empire, and the question of what the empires left behind
The Persian one is a new one on me, but elsewhere we have covered the horrors of The Congo following King Leopold's atrocities, and the ongoing racist Some of us would prefer you kept reference to the irish famine exclusively to irish famine threads, there you can expound on your perverted view of history to your heart's content.problems caused by immigration from former colonies
The old Empires were left in a deplorable mess by their former masters, and that mess was compounded by a deliberate policy to leave the former colinies "safe" - (read manipulable) hands
The consequences of leaving despots in charge have led to mass suffering, starvation, and now a massive itinerant world population seeking refuge from despotim and better lives
That is why questions like Ireland, arms sales, oil, immigration.... all merge into one during these debates...., they are all out of the same stable
I have little doubt that other atrocities like the handling of the Irish and Persian Famines are yet to emerge
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM

A well researched book-perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. The issue is the accuracy of the interpretations of the research within the book and the accuracy of the blogger trying to validate them. This is another issue entirely.
In a nutshell. Prior to the famine Iran was invaded on multiple fronts by multiple enemies. As a result of commandeering of both food and transport by invaders the indigenous population suffered. The death toll was heightened by a drought, causing bad harvests, and the spread of disease, The death toll was further exacerbated by the flu pandemic.
Singling out the British Empire as the sole cause betrays a singular lack of basic scholarship.
The occupation of north and south Iran by Russian and British troops prompted the Ottomans to invade western and north-western Iran early in the war. If we add to this list of adversities the subversion of German agents who were also active, especially in the south, we start to get a more complete picture of Iran’s position in the war.
n 30 October 1918, the Armistice of Mudros was concluded with the Ottoman Empire, and in Istanbul the cabinet of the Committee of Union and Progress resigned. Ahmed Izzet Pasha (1864-1937) formed his new cabinet, and called on all Ottoman troops to return home. Yet the departure of foreign troops from Iran – first the Russians, then the Ottomans – did not strengthen the Iranian government. The population was impoverished, the economy was ruined and almost bankrupt, and the treasury coffers were empty. Soon the government was besieged by centrifugal forces, because regional protest movements began to challenge the status quo. In the northern provinces of Azer­baijan, Gilan and Khorasan, there were reform-minded and revolutionary in­dividuals who believed that, if they could succeed in launching cam­paigns to initiate change in their own region, the same reforms would gradually spread through the rest of the country.
in this turbulent post-war era neither the national government nor foreign powers were in a position to do much to alleviate the human crises.
Beyond deaths from starvation, epidemics also killed many people. The colossal food crisis, plus large numbers of soldiers, refugees and destitute people constantly on the move in search of work and survival, facilitated a deadly combination of pandemics and contagious diseases.


Sadly starvation and disease are a frequent accompaniment to war, and embargoes add to the death toll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_Manna_and_Chowhound
Famine and lack of a reliable food supply are threatening the lives of approximately 80 million people — more than half of them children — in South Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria and Yemen, and in nine additional countries across Africa and the Middle East and most of them are at war or have been recently.

and in these more enlightened times the death toll is more selective by imposing embargoes and sanctions.

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/mar/04/weekend7.weekend9
With the last link it is very very difficult to obtain accurate figures to either prove or disprove Pilgar's assertions (another view.)


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM

I have no intention in re-entering into this discussion on the Irish Famine here - it's well covered elsewhere.

"For the record, my view on nuclear weapons is that nobody should have them."
Amen to that one

"Your link is simply that of a blogger,"
Saido teh feller who relies almost totally on Guido Fawkes.
The link is a commentary on a well researched book on the subject of the Persian Famine
It would be surprising if there were no opponents to that research - it took a century and a half to begin to discuss the Irish famine, during which period, only one book was written on a massive disaster which killed a million and drove another million fro their homes
That condemnatory book - was written by an Englishwoman
Some history is often a case of "what's been did and what's been hid"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:39 AM

"If the Irish famine was deliberate that would be genocide. "
It has been referred to in Ireland for as long as I can remember as "The Irish Holocaust" and the evidence of Sir Charles's Trevelyan's behaviour (the man appointed to distribute famine relief, who described the catastrophe as "God's punishment on the indolent Irish") which came to light some years ago confirms that description.
The Irish Famine was described publicly by leading British politicians as "the solution to 'The Irish Question" and the mass evictions and enforced migration of millions indicated a deliberate policy
All this in now widely documented
An unbiased History of Colonial Britain has yet to be written and is long overdue
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM

As much as it pains me to say it, Iains is largely right on this thread (not on any other I hasten to add). The present dispute with Iran is a continuation of a malaise in British-Iranian relations which has its roots in the overthrow of Mossadegh, and the toppling of democracy in Iran. And that in turn goes back to some decision made in some dusty corner of the Foreign Office, probably in the days of Lawrence of Arabia, that in the millenium old conflict between Shia and Sunni Islam we would be on the side of the Sunni. Despite not understanding this conflict at all. And the result is that the Sunni states have been very free with granting access to their oil, and Shia Iran has not. Hence Mossadegh had to go.

This is much more about oil, nuclear weapons are really a side issue.

For the record, my view on nuclear weapons is that nobody should have them.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 07:06 AM

As with the Irish Famine, the results of which are now widely accepted as being avoidable, and by many, deliberate, it is not so much the disaster itself, but how it was handled which was the problem
There seems reasonable grounds to believe that THE BRITISH EMPIRE did play a major part in what happend and then covered up their behavior
Let's face it, it certainly wouldn't be the first time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 06:50 AM

One of the little-known chapters of history was the widespread famine in Iran during World War I, caused by the British presence in Iran...",

This quote carefully overlooks the following:
1) Drought is a recurrent problem in the Middle East
https://www.pnas.org/content/109/10/3862
2)The Great Persian famine of 1870–1872 was a period of mass starvation and disease in Persia. This occurred with no outside interference,
Xavier de Planhol comments that the famine was a result of "combined climatic catastrophes made worse by poor administration and the human factors".
Shoko Okazaki maintains that the two consecutive years of severe drought was the principal factor and rejects that the increase in production of opium and cotton contributed to the famine. He also blames "senior bureaucrats, landlords, grain dealers and high-ranking religious officials who engaged in hoarding and market manipulation". Cormac Ó Gráda endorses the latter reason

3) The conributary factors to the 1917-1919 famine are:
a)Drought
b)) Russian troops blockaded all the roads in the north-east province of Khorasan, prohibiting any transfers of grain, except those destined for the Russian army
c)The he total granary of the south-east province of Sistan was sold off to the British troops
d)The requisitioning of pack animals, mules and camels for the oil industry in Khuzestan, and for the British and Russian armed forces, left the country's transport network in serious disarray, and disrupted the distribution of foodstuffs and other goods throughout the country – with disastrous consequences.
e) Abbas Milani. Abrahamian describes calling the famine a genocide as "wild accusation" and attributes the vast majority of the 2 million deaths he estimates to cholera and typhus epidemics, as well as mostly the worldwide influenza pandemic.
The topic is as yet under researched and to isolate anyone factor, apart from drought, as being dominant is hard to both justify and quantify.

Iran has struggled with chronic drought for over a decade, and it is currently estimated that 97 percent of the country is experiencing drought conditions. Iran is in the midst of a full-blown water crisis, and the shortages are among the factors leading to widespread unrest in Iranian society.Aug 7, 2018


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 02:01 AM

The famine seems to have been bad but not that bad.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_famine_of_1917–1919


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM

The Museum of Islamic Art (including plenty of Persian art) in Doha, Qatar, is excellent and, along with Souq Waqif, I spent most of my stopover there on an annual visit to see my family in Aus.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 06:11 PM

I wouldn't be at all surprised by that, Susan.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:20 PM

I haven't read the whole thread because I so dislike wang-waving, but here's a story I'll be asking my bi-cultural friend about, because I never heard about it until now.

Excerpt: "...One of the little-known chapters of history was the widespread famine in Iran during World War I, caused by the British presence in Iran..."

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/2197/8-10-million-Iranians-died-over-Great-Famine-caused-by-the-British


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:48 AM

A handy overview, though about 20 years old now: the Middle East volume of the Garland Encyclopedia of World Music. Not sure if I've ever looked at the chapter on Iran but it's a reliable source written from an ethnomusicological perspective that doesn't privilege particular genres at the expense of others.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM

I suspect Spotify would go a long way to providing what pfr wants, though I haven't used it for years. Once you get the hang of copy-pasting titles and names in scripts you can't read, you can go a long way. Just looking for all the different takes on "Morgh-e Sahar" you can find would give you an idea of the possibilities.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM

"All styles from trad to pop..."
I think you are asking a bit much there PFK
Lists of all material don't happen like that
We have a large collection of International traditional material which I'm happy to share with anybody interested - including Iranian/Persian material
The Argo catalogue was once a reliable source for such material - probably no longer easily available, but still obtainable with searching
The Smithsonian/Folkways ethnic output has (I've been told), never been deleted and is still available on request, but I've never really found that as satisfying as Argo. with their detailed and comprehensible notes.
I would highly recommend Jean Jenkins's magnificent 'Music of Islam' on Tangent, for a categoriesed survey of music and singing, to anybody interested in an overview
Jim


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 09:41 AM

A recomended list of Iranian musical artists / youtube videos would be very welcome...

All styles from trad to pop...

I'd hope wiki would at least provide potted histories of various genres
of both govt sanctioned and oppositional musicians,
as follow up reading...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 09:16 AM

They used to have a reasonably broad selection of 'international music' at the Horniman Museum in South East London in Jean Jenkin's days
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM

Kurdish and Persian music are about as unrelated as Highland pipe marches and Yorkshire music hall songs. There are subgenres between each of them but they don't come within miles of overlapping. I can play a few Persian songs but Kurdish music is a totally different world.

There is an excellent shop for Iranian cultural stuff in Paris, www.utopiran.com - near the Porte de Clignancourt. I expect to drop in again next week. I think the people who run it are Zoroastrians but they don't push any obvious ideological line. Can't think of anything comparable in the UK, though we have enough resident Iranians and Iranophiles to make it viable.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 06:38 AM

Some of the best music from the area I've ever heard (particularly from Kurdish Iran) was issue on Argo Records
Compared to the traditional music (as once described by Hindermitt of Classical music) they were "like the dripping of a tap".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 05:47 AM

Dunno about punk under Khomeini, but there was some pretty good political folk rock in the 70s. A friend of mine was a supporter of the Fedai (one of the Communist parties) and had a fair bit of it. I couldn't name any performers though.

The highest profile oppositional musician today (at least, as seen from here) is probably Kayhan Kalhor. But the music that will be having an effect internally will be harder to find - I can ask. But I'm more interested in the traditional stuff anyway.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 04:37 AM

She's my favourite!


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 06:17 PM

Shappi Kharsandi (sp?) has a very funny memoir about growing up in an exiled Iranian family.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:27 PM

BBC 2014 - "Illegal" rock group from Iran


sorry.. not 1950s.. I'll keep looking for an Iranian Elvis...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:22 PM

Shisha?


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Stoukings...???


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM

Souks


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM

Souks


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM

If I was a teddy boy, you could say I had the arse of a duck...

Now to find some 1950s Iranian rock 'n' roll...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

"I prefer brevity of sarcasm and insults.. "
Water off a duck's back if you've only got the brains of a duck
Punk always gave me a headach which is why I avoided it
Thanks for making my point with your link - much prefer the marathon trad folk ballads
Jim


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM

to..


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM

Jim - yes that's me .. Mr Politeness...

WE know what he is up to, most innocent bystanders can see what games he plays...

I prefer brevity of sarcasm and insults..
short sharp to the point like a good classic punk song...

Not boring half hour long prog-rock tracks.. or marathon trad folk ballads...

On that note...
I haven't a clue what this is about or where it was recorded...
or whatever happened top the singer...???

TNA - Khomeini ( 1980's Iran Hardcore Punk )


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM

"The pair of you together bickering across pub tables"
Would you rather I responded to his extremist idiocy politely, as you do, PFR ?
Sorry, - much rather help his expose himself for the nasty piece of work he is.
He may ignore the information put up but I can only hope others don't
What did you do in the war Dayyy !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

The pair of you together bickering across pub tables
would ruin the night out for most other drinkers...

Though a minority with bizarre tastes in entertainment
might take perverse enjoyment in watching
you squabble all night...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 11:16 AM

Jimmie has totally lost the plot and off on a rant again. This continuous cyber stalking of his must be taking its toll.
I will have to show him a map. Iran and Syria are two different countries. They do not even have any common border. Now you have introduced Assad, howsabout Israel, travellers, the grenfell tower fire and uncle Tom Cobley and all?
If my statements are backed up by multiple sources why do you insist on trying to prove me wrong.
. If all you want to do is fight, go somewhere else - but stop clogging Mudcat with your ridiculously petty squabbles.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM

The opportunity to support the Arab peoples in developing their countries into democracies was thrown away when, instead o encouraging the Arab Spring, the first response by Britain was to trip over its own feet by trying to sell arms to those whose despotic behaviour was being protested against
Protestors in Syria were herded into Assad's torture chambers (later to be 'disappeared') with the aid of British riot control equipment and armoured cars.
Many of these countries were formerly colonies and were left in the teder care of 'safe pairs of hands' when their masters were driven out.
Iran was never colonized by European powers, but this did not protect it from the colonial reach of the United Kingdom. In the late nineteenth century, the British-India Company had established a monopoly over tobacco trade in Iran, at the expense of the local merchant class.
THE WEALTHY WEST REALLY HAS NOTHING TO BE SMUG ABOUT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

Persepolis


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 09:59 AM

Not in living memory, Friend Punk.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 08:55 AM

Well that's all a bit too much to try reading on the bog..
Or ever anywhere else for that matter...

So has Iran ever been a particularly nice place to live and try to express yourself
If you are just an ordinary citizen...???


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 04:26 AM

There can be no democracy with a hereditary dictator prepared to use torture and murder in charge, which was what the Shah's regime was
You poured the same disdain on the documented version of Syria's history, even after Assad bombed his people with chemicals sold to him by Britain
Your cowardly bullying from the safety of anonymity has no place here
You have a fully documented history of what happened in Iran there, not carefully selected snippets to suit your twisted right wing politics
A BIT MORE TO DISMISS OUT OF HAND - AS YOU WILL
A BIT MORE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM

Glad to see you attempted to understand my comprehensive links.
It is patently clear your efforts failed.
Now stop trying to pick fights and behave yourself.
How many times do you need telling. You are becoming nothing but a vexatious troll.

"Soon, massive popular? protests, aided by Roosevelt's team, took place across the city"
Are you Goebbels toyboy? You been taken by the propaganda hook line and sinker.

Go find a few Iranians to agree with your perverted version of history.
Perhaps you rely on the Dandy and Beano as your source.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 02:49 AM

"Well ignoring the resident buffoon we can move on."
As you have ignored the fact that, far from being the democracy you claim Persia was (your description), until the revolution, it was a dictatorship where the reforms you describe could be removed at the whim of the hereditary dictator
The reformer Mossadeq was removed from office by the Shah, with the co-operation of the US and the CIA - a description here.

"The plot, known as Operation Ajax, centered on convincing Iran's monarch to issue a decree to dismiss Mosaddegh from office, as he had attempted some months earlier. But the Shah was terrified to attempt such a dangerously unpopular and risky move against Mosaddegh. It would take much persuasion and many U.S. funded meetings, which included bribing his sister Ashraf with a mink coat and money, to successfully change his mind.

Mosaddegh became aware of the plots against him and grew increasingly wary of conspirators acting within his government.[59] According to Dr. Donald N. Wilber, who was involved in the plot to remove Mossadegh from power, in early August, Iranian CIA operatives pretending to be socialists and nationalists threatened Muslim leaders with "savage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh," thereby giving the impression that Mossadegh was cracking down on dissent earlier than planned, and stirring anti-Mossadegh sentiments within the religious community.[60] A referendum to dissolve parliament and give the prime minister power to make law was submitted to voters, and it passed with 99 percent approval, 2,043,300 votes to 1300 votes against.[61] According to Mark J. Gasiorowski, "There were separate polling stations for yes and no votes, producing sharp criticism of Mosaddeq" and that the "controversial referendum...gave the CIA's precoup propaganda campaign to show up Mosaddeq as an anti-democratic dictator an easy target".[62] On or around 16 August, Parliament was suspended indefinitely, and Mosaddeq's emergency powers were extended.

Overthrow
In August 1953, the Shah finally agreed to Mossadegh's overthrow, after Roosevelt said that the United States would proceed with or without him,[63] and formally dismissed the prime minister in a written decree, an act that had been made part of the constitution during the Constitution Assembly of 1949, convened under martial law, at which time the power of the monarchy was increased in various ways by the Shah himself.[64] As a precautionary measure, he flew to Baghdad and from there hid safely in Rome. He actually signed two decrees, one dismissing Mosaddegh and the other nominating the CIA's choice, General Fazlollah Zahedi, as Prime Minister. These decrees, called Farmans, were specifically written as dictated by Donald Wilber, the CIA architect of the plan, and were designed as a major part of Wilber's strategy to give legitimacy to the coup, as can be read in the declassified plan itself, which bears his name.
Tehran strongman Shaban Jafari played a major role in Mossadegh's overthrow.
Soon, massive popular protests, aided by Roosevelt's team, took place across the city and elsewhere with tribesmen at the ready to assist the coup. Anti- and pro-monarchy protesters, both paid by Roosevelt,[63] violently clashed in the streets, looting and burning mosques and newspapers, leaving almost 300 dead. The pro-monarchy leadership, chosen, hidden and finally unleashed at the right moment by the CIA team, led by retired army General and former Minister of Interior in Mosaddegh's cabinet, Fazlollah Zahedi joined with underground figures such as the Rashidian brothers and local strongman Shaban Jafari, to gain the upper hand on 19 August 1953 (28 Mordad). The military joined on cue: pro-Shah tank regiments stormed the capital and bombarded the prime minister's official residence, on Roosevelt's cue, according to his book. Mosaddegh managed to flee from the mob that set in to ransack his house, and, the following day, surrendered to General Zahedi, who was meanwhile set up by the CIA with makeshift headquarters at the Officers' Club. Mosaddegh was arrested at the Officers' Club and transferred to a military jail shortly after. On 22 August, the Shah returned from Rome.

Zahedi's new government soon reached an agreement with foreign oil companies to form a consortium and "restore the flow of Iranian oil to world markets in substantial quantities", giving the United States and Great Britain the lion's share of the restored British holdings. In return, the US massively funded the Shah's resulting government, until the Shah's overthrow in 1979.[67]

As soon as the coup succeeded, many of Mosaddegh's former associates and supporters were tried, imprisoned, and tortured. Some were sentenced to death and executed.[68] The minister of foreign affairs and the closest associate of Mosaddegh, Hossein Fatemi, was executed by order of the Shah's military court. The order was carried out by firing squad on 29 October 1953.[69]

Trial and final years
Mossadegh under house arrest in Ahmadabad
On 21 December 1953, Mossadegh was sentenced to three years' solitary confinement in a military prison, well short of the death sentence requested by prosecutors. After hearing the sentence, Mossadegh was reported to have said: "The verdict of this court has increased my historical glories. I am extremely grateful you convicted me. Truly tonight the Iranian nation understood the meaning of constitutionalism."

Mossadegh was kept under house arrest at his Ahmadabad residence, until his death on 5 March 1967. He was denied a funeral and was buried in his living room, despite his request to be buried in the public graveyard, beside the victims of the political violence on 321st July 1951"

I have little doubt that the above fits Iain's description of democracy, but I doubt if it does anybody elses

A regime such as that of The Shah, backed up by the CIA, is as far from democracy as you can get as far as I am concerned.

None of this is it suggest that what replaced the Shah's dictatorship was Democracy, but, had the self-interested interference of the US not been a factor, it might have been
The U.S. Co-OPERATED WITH THE COUP - Khomeni was even chosen as 'Man of the Year' for the cover of Time Magazine
True to form, the White House backed off when they realised the new leaders weren't going to dance to thir tune

A Shah's demovracy, my arseum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 01:18 AM

A man I know left Iran some time ago but is still very attached to it even though he prefers the USA. He seems to be a very private kind of man but little by little I am getting to hear his story. So far I know that he was in the military there and because he knew some English they frequently called upon him. He would like to visit there but once he said that he'd probably end up dead.

He very much disapproves of The US policy in re Iran or lack of it. He believes that Iran is doing only what it must do in order to survive.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 04:57 PM

Well ignoring the resident buffoon we can move on.
A potted history of Iran/Persia since Reza Khan

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/middle_east-jan-june10-timeline
I draw your attention to below:
1951
Nationalist Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq attempts to nationalize the British-owned oil industry. The shah opposes Mossadeq and removes him from power, but he regains power and the shah leaves Iran.

Now if the Prime Minister removes the Shah from power this makes absolute nonsense of the assertion above " but reforms within a dictatorship does not begin to approach democracy
Jim Carroll"
I have given multiple sources indicating that the great wide world regarded the period during which Mossadeq was premier he presided over a democracy. No one has stated it was perfect but it was not a dictatorship at that time.

Life under the Shah was by no means as repressive as portrayed.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/shah-of-iran-before-1979
The above link also explains much of the subsequent bad feeling towards the US(and west)
In a nutshell the US view that all nations had a "right to self-determination".was fine until it came to oil. Then subsequent Machiavellian games have caused havoc in the middle east and killed millions
Iran Iraq war estimated 1,000,000
Coalition Iraq war/s 600,000 (some report 2.4 million)
Libya, Sudan, toll unknown
An intro to the games played.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/04/george-hw-bush-saudi-arabia-donald-trump
Over a period of 35 years, having worked from Egypt to Eritrea back through the Yemen, Oman, Quatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, Syria and flying visits to Saudi I can state there ain't one of them gets even close to being democratic. Iran managed to get far closer to being a true democracy than any nearby countries and this was prevented by thoroughly documented outside interference. The present standoff between Iran and the west needs to be looked at in context historically, the rights and wrongs are not as simplistic as the mainstream media would have you suppose.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 04:33 PM

Jack Campin writted:

Look at the figures for economic opportunity and public health.

The Islamic regime has been a VAST improvement on the Shah. Particularly in equality of opportunity for women.


That rings true with your penchant for assassination: Here's one female who was 'liberated'


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM

"Did you really wire houses the same way you conduct yourself on this forum?"
A string off mindless insults is no replaacement for an intelligent response and only serves to underline your inability to respond
You reputation goes before you which is why you are universally recognised for what you are and what you stand for are
The fact that you need to resort to your old racism shows only your inability to control your behaviour
And a typo - surely not - we really are lost for words, aren't we ?
Denying past behaviour with more of the same really is something else !!
Go find a passing schoolgirl to bully - your blustering shit impresses no-one here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 02:07 PM

Did you really wire houses the same way you conduct yourself on this forum? Were you simply a sparky or raging pyromaniac? No wonder you scuttled away to the furthest recesses of Ireland

Of course asking you to prove your last allegations is a wasted effort.
Over the last three years at least you have managed to deliberately distort everything I have said and post a pack of lies. You are a fool, a disgrace and inveterate troublemaking liar.
Go on. Prove me wrong!

(on hsi past record, Ian's has poured hared and scorn on the types of reforms brought about by Mosaddegh
As hopelessly inaccurate as your spelling laddie


Throughout Mossadegh's career, he strove to increase the power the people held versus the power of the crown. In 1952, he was granted emergency powers by the Majlis which he used to diminish the amount of power the Shah held at the time. He used these powers to place the control of the armed forces under the government, to decrease the size of the armed forces, and introduce land reforms with a more socialist approach.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM

(on hsi past record, Ian's has poured hared and scorn on the types of reforms brought about by Mosaddegh
We really have been here before
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

What has happened to Irsin since the revolution it totally irrelevant - I don't think anybody is defending this or any religion based state
The suggestion was that "Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
It was crap and it remains crap
Some reforms were brought about by a liberally inclined leader, but reforms within a dictatorship does not begin to approach democracy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM

Hello relatively sensible Iains who sounds like he lead a very interesting life...

You seem like a bloke worth getting to know,
unlike that intolerant fanatic who shares your same name...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM

Better make that minutiae before the pedant pounces.
A bit more history written by an exile

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/iran-must-not-be-plunged-again-into-the-nightmare-of-conflict-1.3938244

Womens Rights

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48a8/956aac1c84359c63ff06be647c642fab758d.pdf


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