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Persians

Bonzo3legs 22 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jul 19 - 04:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jul 19 - 04:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jul 19 - 04:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jul 19 - 04:40 PM
Mrrzy 22 Jul 19 - 04:42 PM
keberoxu 22 Jul 19 - 05:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jul 19 - 05:57 PM
Mossback 22 Jul 19 - 06:32 PM
Charmion 22 Jul 19 - 09:05 PM
EBarnacle 22 Jul 19 - 11:44 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Jul 19 - 05:32 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 05:59 AM
DaveRo 23 Jul 19 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM
wysiwyg 23 Jul 19 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 06:58 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 07:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jul 19 - 07:20 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 07:28 AM
DaveRo 23 Jul 19 - 07:40 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM
DaveRo 23 Jul 19 - 10:12 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 10:14 AM
DaveRo 23 Jul 19 - 10:17 AM
leeneia 23 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 11:26 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM
Jack Campin 23 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM
robomatic 23 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM
Jack Campin 23 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jul 19 - 12:46 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 19 - 01:01 PM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 01:08 PM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM
Iains 23 Jul 19 - 02:07 PM
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Subject: Persians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM

All the Persians I have ever known - perhaps half a dozen, think the present government there is bonkers!!!


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:24 PM

I like their rugs.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:32 PM

I'm not too keen on any kinds of cats...

whatever they say about our government...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:38 PM

GUEST - here you anonymous misery...

Top Persian Music 2018


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:40 PM

that guest didn't stay long...

hope he/she likes the music she/he was curious about...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:42 PM

One man's Mede is another man's Persian, I have read.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 05:45 PM

When was the last time
there was a nation called Persia?
I need to look this up.

And do they speak middle Persian,
or the
Arabic-Farsi blend post-Prophet?

Do they have a Shah or an Imam?

If they don't call their country Persia, what do they call it?
Are there Zoroastrians there?

if the question is serious,
it needs to be more specific ...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 05:57 PM

on second thoughts..

cats couldn't run goverments much worse than most nation's citizens are having to put up with...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 06:32 PM

All the Persians I have ever known - perhaps half a dozen, think the present government there is bonkers!!!

What do they think of the present government of Trumpshitistan - or what used to be the United States.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 09:05 PM

The only human Persians I have met came to Canada as refugees. I did not discuss politics because they generally preferred not to. They seemed more interested in hockey, cars and food.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 11:44 PM

I know only one Persian. I administered the course and test for his ham radio license. He passed with a very good score.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM

The present dispute with Iran is rooted in the agreement on the development of Nuclear weapons
As far as I'm concerned, no nation should hold the fate of mankind in its hands and the last one to dictate who should and who shouldn't have the wherewithal to make this possible is one who has already used weapons of mass destruction on civilians on a not-so-grand scale - especially as it now has an aggressively unstable leader at its head.
The recognised term for those living in Iran is "Iranians" - referring to peoples by anything but their chosen name name went out with Empire (or should have done) - Cyrus and the Shah are figures of the past
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 04:46 AM

Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government. The USA and UK toppled it. Oil has dominated Middle Eastern politics ever since Churchill designated it as bunker fuel for the Navy.The Shah's regime was seen as an oppressive, brutal, corrupt, and extravagant regime by some of the society's classes at that time. It also suffered from some basic functional failures that brought economic bottlenecks, shortages, and inflation. The Shah was perceived by many as a puppet of – a non-Muslim Western power (the United States) The Shah's regime was seen as an oppressive, brutal, corrupt, and extravagant regime by some of the society's classes at that time. It also suffered from some basic functional failures that brought economic bottlenecks, shortages, and inflation. No surprise it was toppled.
The first rule of puppet governments is keep the people happy.It must also be pointed out that the US scored no additional brownie points by tacitly supporting Iraq during the prolonged Iranian Iraqi war. IT would seem entirely reasonable to me that the Iranian Government distrusts all US words and actions.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM

"Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
CRAP - DEMOCRACY UNDER THE SHAH
im Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 05:32 AM

Persians who escaped Persia after the revolution very much regard their country as Persia, and fo NOT recognise the current bunch. Persia is very much alive.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 05:59 AM

"Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
CRAP - DEMOCRACY UNDER THE SHAH
A typical kneejerk reaction of the chief troublemaker little jimmie.
Jumps in with both feet before understanding what was said! Stupid boy.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/20/64-years-later-cia-finally-releases-details-of-iranian-coup-iran-tehran-oil/


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:05 AM

Country, land, state, people - all different things.

I recommend 'The Silk Road' by Peter Frankopan. Persia, Iran, Zoroastrians, ... even the Medes get a mention.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:21 AM

"Lirttle Jimmie - "stupid boy"
A typical defensive response to a well documented fact
That the CIA (a security service of a nation quite familiar with using torture and undemocratic methods for its own advantage), should also involve itself in clandestine activities in a repressed state, proves only the old provrb - "birds of a feather.... etc)
The Shah's police were notorious for their torture and murder at the time of what was an immensely well-supported coup
Those who "escaped" were largely supporters of the Shah's regime - see Cuba for an example of supporters of "America's Open Sewer escaping to freedom"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM

SEE HERE FOR THE SHAH's DEMOCRACY

We seem to be back in Iains's "that poor, misunderstood Mr Assad's" Wonderland once more
Must do something about those rabbit holes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM

The link given at 0559 directly contradicts the link provider's claim that "Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government," presumably the precise opposite of what he intended. Here's a little extract from the article in the link.

"The coup alienated liberals in Iran as well. Mossadegh is widely considered to be the closest thing Iran has ever had to a democratic leader. He openly championed democratic values and hoped to establish a democracy in Iran.The elected parliament selected him as prime minister, a position he used to reduce the power of the shah, thus bringing Iran closer in line with the political traditions that had developed in Europe. But any further democratic development was stymied on Aug. 19."

So never a democracy, and it most assuredly never was under the Shah.

I may not be a prolific provider of links but I least I read my sources to ensure that they don't contradict my point, still less pepper my response with insults.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

Once again the troublemaker dredges in arguments from old threads and adds his usual distortion and lies to make his fallacious points. He also sufffers from his usual problem of either not reading or more likely not understanding the issues raised.

As I stated Mohammad-Mosaddegh was democratically elected until toppled after nationalising the anglo iranian oil(BP) company assets. The replacement Shah was perceived by many as a puppet.


https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:47 AM

A close US-born, european-heritage friend married into the culture, raised the resulting children bi-culturally, and (now in late widowhood) remains deeply fond of the culture. It's best understood from within personal relationship.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:58 AM

"Once again the troublemaker dredges in arguments from old threads"
And once again you defend democrat9c States


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 06:58 AM

"Once again the troublemaker dredges in arguments from old threads"
And once again you defend democrat9c States


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 07:16 AM

"As I stated Mohammad-Mosaddegh was democratically elected..."

You have stated no such thing, at least not in this thread, and the link you provided which was supposed to support you actually contradicts you, as I've shown. It wasn't hard. All I had to do was read the piece you so kindly pointed to. Try that approach some time.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 07:20 AM

Circa 1981, in a big city up north,
we had either an Iranian or Iraqi living in a bedsit above us.
He was a perpetual student, getting on for 30, who quietly kept himself to himself.
We found out from the landlady he was the son of a high ranking military officer
staying in England studying different subjects from one year to the next,
rather than go home and be pushed into military service and war.

Can't remember what happened to him.
The only thing that sticks in my mind,
was how much he hogged the only bathroom in the building..
Presumably preoccupied with prayer rituals...???
Keeping me and my girlfriend waiting outside on the stairs..
Not much fun shivering outside a north country attic bathroom in winter...

[We also had an old drunk living below us, who stole my girlfriends underware off the washing line..
The fun of leaving home in small town west country for distant big city life...]

Anyway, we kind of speculated that if the student was hiding out in England,
he was probably very cautious about being found by other expat/refugee Iranians or Iraquis at that time in history...???


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 07:22 AM

Incidentally, your Britannica link also contradicts your claim that he was democratically elected, indicating as it does that he was appointed by the Shah. I hope the rest of your day goes better.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 07:28 AM

I think you are absolutely right, Susan. I also think that the West has treated Iran, which could be a prosperous and peaceful nation, shamefully. I met some Iranians in London recently who, whilst enjoying the western lifestyle, missed their country and wanted to get back. "It is so much more civilised there." What do WE know?


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 07:40 AM

1950 Iranian legislative election


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 09:30 AM

Wiki.

"The Supreme Leader of Iran is the head of state and highest ranking political and religious authority (above the President). The armed forces, judicial system, state television, and other key governmental organizations are under the control of the Supreme Leader. There have been only two Supreme Leaders since the founding of the Islamic Republic, and the current leader (Ali Khamenei), has been in power since 1989. His powers extend to issuing decrees and making final decisions on the economy, environment, foreign policy, education, national planning of population growth, the amount of transparency in elections in Iran, and who is to be fired and reinstated in the Presidential cabinet.

The Supreme Leader is appointed and supervised by the Assembly of Experts. However, all candidates to the Assembly of Experts, the President and the Majlis (Parliament), are selected by the Guardian Council, half of whose members are selected by the Supreme Leader of Iran. Also, all directly-elected members after the vetting process by the Guardian Council still have to be approved by the Supreme Leader. As such, the Assembly has never questioned the Supreme Leader."

Do read that second paragraph slowly. Not democracy.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM

...which, I meant to say, now covers Iran since WWII, if you read that along with my extract from the 05:59 AM link. Never a democracy.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 10:12 AM

The current constitution dates from 1979 when Iran became an Islamic republic.
Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran

The (Persian) 1906 constitution introduced democracy, and while modified in 1949 when the Shah attempted to increase his powers, was the one under which Mosaddegh was elected.
1949 Iranian Constituent Assembly election

I see that under the 1906 constiution voters - men aged 30-70 - had to "have some insight into affairs of State." So not democracy as we know it today ;)


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 10:14 AM

As I said in my first contribution to this thread:

Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government. The USA and UK toppled it.
The coup threw out the then Prime Minister Mossadeq and replacd him with the Shah. Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh was Iran’s prime minister elected as such by the Iranian Parliament at a time when parliamentary elections were in fact considered legitimate in Iran. For millions of Iranians he symbolizes Iranian sovereignty and patriotism. During his short tenure in office (April 1951-August 1953) he managed to implement the legislation (which he had spearheaded in Parliament) that nationalized the oil industry, ending almost 50 years of British monopoly over Iran’s petroleum excavation, extraction, research, marketing and sales.
In contrast the Shah(Who was originally placed in power by outside interests) had an autocratic government and kept a whip hand on the population with his secret police, trained by the CIA.

My contribution gets misquoted by our resident troublemaker little jimmy to:
"Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
CRAP - DEMOCRACY UNDER THE SHAH


and then our resident pedant and nit picker shaw jumps in and takes hold of little jimmies contribution as fact and starts to argue with my opening statement and quotes:
So never a democracy, and it most assuredly never was under the Shah. without a single fact to back up his assertions.

Many others describe government under Mossadeq as democratic,not perfect by any means but democratic.
https://www.neiu.edu/academics/college-of-business-and-management/mossadegh-initiative/who-was-mohammad-mossadegh

Many Iranians regard Mosaddegh as the leading champion of secular democracy and resistance to foreign domination in Iran's modern history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh



Some contributors here just turn up spoiling for a fight, some cannot even support their "Facts" with verifiable links!

Further history:
"In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries which it had diplomatic relations with, to call Persia "Iran," which is the name of the country in Persian.
The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of "Aryan" blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history and had freed itself from the pernicious influences of Britain and Russia, whose interventions in Persian affairs had practically crippled the country under the Qajars, it was only fitting that the country be called by its own name, "Iran." This would not only signal a new beginning and bring home to the world the new era in Iranian history, but would also signify the Aryan race of its population, as "Iran" is a cognate of "Aryan" and derived from it."


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 10:17 AM

Sorry - it's candidates for election that must be aged 30-70 and have to have some insight into affairs of State. So still not democracy as we know it today.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

Forty years ago, my best friend married a man from Iran. He sometimes referred to it as Persia. More often, he referred to his language (Farsi) as Persian.

He pronounced Iran "EE-run." He was a nice man.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 11:26 AM

We turn up spoiling to get the facts right, unlike you. Twice in this thread you've put up links that directly contradict assertions of yours you thought they were supporting. But you just keep digging. I prefer the links' versions of the facts personally. Still.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM

Shaw your stupidity is your problem, not mine. bysie bye


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

Persia or Iran? a view from wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Iran


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM

Iains is nearer the mark than the people arguing with him. Mossadegh was the nearest thing to a democratically elected ruler with the country's interests at heart that Iran has had yet.

I wonder if I've met their current president. He was a postgrad in Glasgow when I was living there. Seems a great deal saner than Trump or Johnson, not that that's much of an achievement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23554836

The people in my band call their music Persian, their language either Persian or Farsi, and their country Iran. The choice of words doesn't code any particular ideology.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM

I've heard the language spoken by a native. It is beautiful.

I've always been a bit askance that I was ignorant of the CIA putsch over Mossadegh until the turn of the millenium when All the Shah's Men was published. I'd gone to a university with many Iranian students, whom I often ate with since I lived in an International House. They tried to teach me Farsi tongue twisters. I'm positive that every one of them knew about Mossadegh's overthrow.

Nevertheless, the Ayatollah was way worse than the Shah, and his inheritors are no better than he was.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

The nearest thing was a long way from the real thing. He was appointed. As for arguing with Iains, what we actually want is some truthfulness from him and for him to display a yet-to-be-discovered ability to actually address challenges to him instead of going off half-cock on another track, scattering insults as he goes. There's plenty of that already in this short thread.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM

Look at the figures for economic opportunity and public health.

The Islamic regime has been a VAST improvement on the Shah. Particularly in equality of opportunity for women.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:46 PM

Is Iran in 2019 a place where young people can sing and dance and love freely...???

Let's not let our admiration for the trad culture and music of the region,
lend too rosy a tint to our glasses.....


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:01 PM

No need for a rosy tint, but Jack definitely has a point. And what the West serially fails to comprehend is that countries that we serially shit on, via sanctions and arming their enemies in order to fight proxy wars thousands of miles from our own countries, not to speak of ousting their governments in order to install our puppets, builds resentment and retaliation. Iran is a prime example. If we trade freely and cooperate with them, their prosperity will increase as their belligerence decreases. After all, we are pretty good at holding our noses in order to do business with despicable regimes in China and Saudi...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:08 PM

When I first arrived in Singapore in 1973 many of my immediate colleagues had previously worked in Iran. A school friend worked in Khorramshahr for Price Waterhouse for several years over the same timeframe.Back then under the Shah an expat lifestyle was reckoned to be superior to that in Singapore. For the politically active the reality was very different, savak was an organisation that would put the fear of God up anyone. (but political activism can cause trouble in any country if against the establishment, the UK not excluded)
Conversely Women were liberated under the Shah and miniskirts a common sight in the major cities. Two sentence soundbites can hardly do justice to such a complex subject. Mossadeq is regarded in a positive light, the Shah less so, and the reign of the Ayatollahs seems to have sent aspects of society back to the stone age. I see no point in arguing over minutae unless authoring a book on the subject. I stand by my broad brush depiction, tempered as it is by personally related anecdotes from the later years of the Shah.


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM

Better make that minutiae before the pedant pounces.
A bit more history written by an exile

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/iran-must-not-be-plunged-again-into-the-nightmare-of-conflict-1.3938244

Womens Rights

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48a8/956aac1c84359c63ff06be647c642fab758d.pdf


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM

Hello relatively sensible Iains who sounds like he lead a very interesting life...

You seem like a bloke worth getting to know,
unlike that intolerant fanatic who shares your same name...


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

What has happened to Irsin since the revolution it totally irrelevant - I don't think anybody is defending this or any religion based state
The suggestion was that "Once upon a time Persia had a democratic government."
It was crap and it remains crap
Some reforms were brought about by a liberally inclined leader, but reforms within a dictatorship does not begin to approach democracy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM

(on hsi past record, Ian's has poured hared and scorn on the types of reforms brought about by Mosaddegh
We really have been here before
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Persians
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 02:07 PM

Did you really wire houses the same way you conduct yourself on this forum? Were you simply a sparky or raging pyromaniac? No wonder you scuttled away to the furthest recesses of Ireland

Of course asking you to prove your last allegations is a wasted effort.
Over the last three years at least you have managed to deliberately distort everything I have said and post a pack of lies. You are a fool, a disgrace and inveterate troublemaking liar.
Go on. Prove me wrong!

(on hsi past record, Ian's has poured hared and scorn on the types of reforms brought about by Mosaddegh
As hopelessly inaccurate as your spelling laddie


Throughout Mossadegh's career, he strove to increase the power the people held versus the power of the crown. In 1952, he was granted emergency powers by the Majlis which he used to diminish the amount of power the Shah held at the time. He used these powers to place the control of the armed forces under the government, to decrease the size of the armed forces, and introduce land reforms with a more socialist approach.


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