mudcat.org: If you don't like ballads......
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]


If you don't like ballads......

DMcG 08 May 19 - 04:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 19 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,JHW 08 May 19 - 05:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 19 - 10:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 19 - 10:27 AM
DMcG 08 May 19 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Andy7 08 May 19 - 10:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 19 - 10:58 AM
Bill D 08 May 19 - 11:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 19 - 11:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 19 - 11:31 AM
Stringsinger 08 May 19 - 12:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 19 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 May 19 - 02:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 19 - 02:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 19 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 May 19 - 03:47 PM
keberoxu 08 May 19 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 May 19 - 05:51 AM
Howard Jones 10 May 19 - 06:53 AM
DMcG 10 May 19 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 08:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 09:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 09:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 09:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 09:17 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 09:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 10:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 11:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 12:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 12:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 01:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 01:39 PM
Steve Gardham 10 May 19 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 03:08 PM
Steve Gardham 10 May 19 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 May 19 - 05:42 PM
Andy7 10 May 19 - 06:22 PM
saulgoldie 10 May 19 - 06:41 PM
Acorn4 10 May 19 - 06:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 19 - 02:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 19 - 02:21 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 19 - 03:14 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 19 - 03:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 19 - 03:41 AM
Jack Campin 11 May 19 - 08:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 May 19 - 08:31 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 19 - 04:07 AM

Two factors in why songs are seldom in dialect is to do with what the collector felt and understood, and the intended audience. My favourite dialect issue is in "English County Songs" by Lucy Broadwood. One of the northern songs refers to 'marra', which is term usually meaning workmate but often a more general friend. This is rendered as 'marrow', so we have the wonderful line:

As me and my marrow were going to work ...

which conjures up an image of a miner with a large green vegetable under his arm.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 19 - 04:21 AM

Just remember my mate Ged doing John o'Greenfield's ramble at the club one night when there were a couple of French people in. When he got to what was potentially a controversial line he seamlessly changed it to

"Ah'll fayt eyther t'Spanish or t'Welsh"

:D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:53 AM

It was hearing Nic Jones sing Annan Water on a Dansette record player first turned me on to ballads. Agree with Joe - good ballad and good singer needed. Maybe only one in a set and I'd only do Tam Lin/Lane on the very night of Halloween.
The comment 'go for a pee' reminds me of a night in the Southfield, Girvan where someone sang a very long song about a boxing match. Someone did indeed go out and return to the continuing song asking 'Are we still winning?'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:20 AM

Kettle boiling time again..

So.. "Alexa, play Folk Ballads.."

The first track she selected is the Eagles "Desperado"...???

Now the fun begins..

"Alexa, play next track.." listen to the intro.. repeat... "Alexa, play next track.." and so on..

I can keep doing this until boiling water hits the teabag...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:27 AM

so.. the Folk Ballad Playlist consists of only 3 tracks...

The Eagles, Ed Sheeran, and some French language singer songwriter from the 1970s...

Alexa is the future of music curation...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:29 AM

I don't have Alexa but am not sure I would risk asking for Child Ballads...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: GUEST,Andy7
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:48 AM

If Alexa ran a folk club it might get a little boring after a few months.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:58 AM

Some French language singer songwriter from the 1970s

Probably Jacques Brel

Well worth a listen but if, like me, you don't know French try versions by Scott Walker or Marc Almond


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 19 - 11:09 AM

At the FSGW's annual Getaway for the last few years, there has been a "ballad channel" in one cabin on one day. All afternoon, ballad aficionados take turns leading/hosting for an hour. There are always other topics elsewhere, but this way it is easy to share/listen for at least ONE hour.
In years past, there was usually only one hour devoted to ballads, but we have enough aficionados to make the new schedule work. Sometimes there are only 3-4 folks.. and sometimes 8-10... but everyone has an opportunity, and we have several younger folks (ages-12-25 or so) who have been really learning and appreciating ballads...(even some of the more rare & obscure ones).

There may be 40 people in "Sea Songs" or "Parodies"...etc, but we in FSGW have no fear that ballads are in danger of demise anytime soon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 19 - 11:17 AM

DtG - nah.. I asked Alexa.. it's Francis Cabrel...

Bugger, now I've got to do googling time to find out if he's any good or not...???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 19 - 11:31 AM

google and listening to intros of his songs later...

No.. he's not any good...[imho..]...

Alexa needs to sort herself out...
she's not the only AI looking for work in the entertainment industry...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 19 - 12:05 PM

I've always liked to interpret ballads by attempting to offer an interesting but germane musical accompaniment that doesn't detract from the words and the story.

Some traditionalists would not like this. The prefer to have sparse music and melody only enough to carry the story.

Since I'm predominantly a musician who loves folk music and ballads, I am not opposed to a tasteful accompaniment even on other instruments that are not considered folk.

But as Shakespeare said, "The play's the thing"....I think the story is the thing in ballad singing. Anything that gets in the way is wrong.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 19 - 01:19 PM

I guess Jim is away somewhere with no time to tell me of what I was being accused on 07 May 19 - 06:06 AM.

I can wait


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 May 19 - 02:00 PM

While he is away, Dave, in that post he gave an account of what a ballad is. The way he gave it suggested that people who did not agree with it had not been paying attention properly. And while the post is to some extent ambiguous about the addressee of some sections, it might have been you.

It is an interesting account but I feel it might be improved.

It's a bit contradictory, for it says 'just plot' while also emphasising small amounts of description and small amounts of comment. But 'just plot' would presumably mean no description or content.

The account also says something about 'bare bones' and here I disagree. But this could lead to debate about what 'bare bones' means.

The account has nothing to say about the rhyme, rhythm or music, reflecting perhaps Jim's approach to the genre. But all these seem to me to be more than 'bare bones'.

The narratives relate to characters, and these are often described to some extent. As are places.

Eg

THERE lived a wife at Usher's Well,
And a wealthy wife was she;
She had three stout and stalwart sons,
And sent them oer the sea.

What are the 'bare bones' of this bit of plot? Three men went to sea? A married woman sent her sons to sea? It seems clear to me that we are getting more than just plot: we get some indication of social rank, and some indication of the character of the three young men, all of which is 'description'.

Not to mention the alliteration, lots of w sounds and then lots of s sounds, which add to the sound patterning.

Bare bones of plot? I don't think so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 19 - 02:05 PM

While Jim's away, the electric folk rockers will play...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:43 PM

He confirmed it was addressed to me at 06:41 AM pseudonymous. At least I think so!

You have a point about ballads but, if you think about it, any story does the same. If you stripped out all the descriptions and irrelevant bits most books would probably fit on a couple of pages :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:47 PM

D the G
Good point. But I guess for me, ballads are more than just 'plot'. This is part of their appeal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 May 19 - 07:37 PM

I wish we could hear, at some point, from
Mudcatter Thomas Stern,
who knows more repertoire and artists than I do.

From my angle,
which is a classical-music education,
I can imagine those who are partial to the German Lied
engaging in a similar discussion within that specialty.

The Lied has many other song types than the ballad;
having said that,
there is no shortage of ballads in Lieder,
and some of them are really memorable work
(if they are done with inspiration, they could give you nightmares).

For all that, I can easily imagine
some people who love classical singing
who, like others here,
cringe at the thought of sitting through
performances of certain Lied ballads.

Not to mention the pianists who have to accompany them.
Some of the great ballad settings are the kind of piano-writing
that separates the professionals from the amateurs,
as some composers of genius -- Schubert is a good example --
respond enthusiastically to the challenge of
an atmospheric, stirring musical setting for a ballad lyric.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:51 AM

The more I think about it the less sense the idea of 'just plot' makes. I don't want to get into narrative theory, but surely character is important, and setting. What sense does the wife of usher make if you take away the fact that she is a wife and that the other characters in the 'plot' are a) male and b) her sons and c) loved by her?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:53 AM

The first verse of 'Ushers Well' sets the scene and puts the characters in context. It tells you very little about them, other than their relationship to one another, and that the sons were stout and stalwart. It doesn't tell you why they were sent to sea, or anything about their characters or even occupations.

The version I know, learned from Chris Coe, refers her as "a carlin wife", meaning witch, or unpleasant or disliked old woman. That is the only hint of characterisation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:57 AM

That's a bit harsh, Howard. The first verse is 26 words. We agree it sets the scene. What literary forms manages to set the scene and characterise four people in 26 words?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 08:55 AM

"I guess Jim is away somewhere with no time to tell me of what I was being accused on 07 May 19 - 06:06 AM. "
You really are obsessiver about incidentals aren't you
How about your responding to the damage you and yours have done about substituting popp dross for genuine folk songs
I asked firsdt and have been awaiting an answer for a very long tome

Regarding 'The Wife of Usher's Well
It is oftebnn suggested that it is part two of a longer ballad, the first part being listed as 'The Clerk's Twa Sons of Owsenford'
In the first part, the two sons are sent away to college and attract the afefction of the daughters of a wealthy and powerful local dignitary - despite the girls' pleading, the lads are executed.
The second part involves the mother's mourning the deaths of her sons for too long (sometimes longer than a year and a day in popular folklore)
THe linking of the two stories makes perfect sense - a 'squaring of the circle
The 'overmourning' theme is shared by numerous ballads, 'The Unquiet Grave' probably being the most popular
Jim Carroll (glad to be back)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 08:59 AM

You really are obsessiver about incidentals aren't you

No, I just like to know what I am being accused of.

You just like to divert attention from the fact that you were wrong.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:14 AM

"No, I just like to know what I am being accused of."
I have not "accused" you of anything Dave - I mentioned in passing that I believed you to have indicated your being 'bored' - not an accusation
You have once again made an issue of something unimportant (like my pun on Morris Dancing)
You have consistently avoided answering the point I have made about the enormous damage being done to folk song by passing off non folk music in folk clubs
You want to make a n issue of my 'bored' comment - feel free - every little helps to avoid the serious stuff, I suppose
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:15 AM

I think there's much potential for sequals to popular ballads..

"Matty Groves 2: Revenge From The Grave"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:16 AM

.. even Franchises...

Matty Groves parts 1 - 7 Boxset...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:17 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:22 AM

Liked the third suggestion best PFR
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:05 AM

You have once again made an issue of something unimportant

I don't consider people making up things I have said as unimportant. I am sure if I were to put words in your mouth you would have something to say yet you repeatedly do it to me. I always ask you to link where I have said what you indicate and you then repeatedly avoid doing so because you know you are wrong. In this case:

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:06 AM
...
You keep using teh term "boring"

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:28 AM

You keep using teh term "boring"

Do I? Can you point out where please?

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:41 AM

"Do I? Can you point out where please?"
No time now - bt you just have

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:46 AM

No time now - bt you just have

Did I? I think you just made that up but, when you have time, feel free to disprove that theory.


There you have it in full. Making up things I have said, again, and not even having the decency to admit you were wrong.

May be trivial to you but I value the truth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:59 AM

Sorry Dave - I really don't care
I was left with the impression that you were bored with folk song whan you said 'we decided to widen what clubs put on' (in case you take me up on that that is a paraphrase of what I remember you saying
I did not mean it as a criticism - I said it in passing, you are blowing it out of all proportions (pretty much as you did with my ‘Morris Dance’ pun
If it helps in any way, I withdraw it – I have no doubt it will bring us no nearer to your commenting on the damage that has been done by running folk clubs that don’t do folk songs because of “changing musical trends “ (that I have no doubt you did say
I’m really not interested in your increasingly evasive trivia        
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 11:09 AM

I'm trying to figure out how I submitted a blank post...

Maybe the ghost of Matty Groves has posessed my PC..
is it needing to tell us something...???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 11:28 AM

Well thanks for the (un)gracious apology Jim. For what it is worth I did not coin the phrase “changing musical trends“ either. I am not sure how often I have posted the words or the link to the Wiki article that says The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. but here it is again

Folk club - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing to do with me and not my words but I do believe that the reasons given for the decline are far more likely than the one you constantly repeat.

If you do not like me picking up on these 'trivial' points then there is a dead simple solution. Stop making up things that I have said and stop ascribing other peoples words to me. As soon as you do that, I shall stop pulling you up on it.

For what it's worth, I am not really interested in these pointless circular arguments either but when they directly concern me and misrepresent my position, you can be sure I will put the record straight.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:00 PM

"“changing musical trends“ "
You used it Dave, and, when applied to something as well established and continually used, it is a nonsensical excuse for the fall of the folk club scene
If you link to something you put them up as your opinion, surely
WE're not here to discuss other people's opinions - just our own
I don't "make things up (you are calling me a liar again)
I make mistakes, but I see no point in taking part in a public forum to 'make things up, that is insulting both to my honesty and my intelligence
We all make mistakes you and me included
A bit different to the persistent suggestion (not by you) that I have ever suggested a tradition only, unaccompanied scene.
You have wrung the last drop ob blood out of a couple of them
If you are not interested in circular pointless arguments - stop riding them and respond to what is actually said and the spirit in which it has been put forward
As far as I am concerned, folk song is still a perfectly viable form of entertainment - the fact that so many clubs have decided otherwise, but have clung on to the title has done a great deal of damage to the venues that were created to promote it
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:03 PM

So.. have any of the big ballads ever been adapted into movies...???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 01:27 PM

I make mistakes

So do we all, Jim. But this is the first time I have seen you acknowledge one. That you for admitting you mistakenly attributed something to me. That was all that was needed.

You used it Dave, and, when applied to something as well established and continually used, it is a nonsensical excuse

Of coiurse it is. Which is why I did not use it. How many more times do I have to repeat the same phrase

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends.

Indicating that there were a number of factors involved. Which is far more believeable that saying the main reason was that folk clubs no longer present folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 01:39 PM

If I go to a Pop Club, that's what I expect..
I wouldn't want to suck on a sherbert fountain and find it full of coal dust...
Bloody folkies and their banjos and fiddles polluting and ruining the top 20 Pop charts...

No wonder "Top of The Pops" is no more, and Pop as we knew it is on it's last legs...

I blame Hobgoblin music shops... and public school music lessons... and BBC4...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 19 - 02:48 PM

Pf :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:08 PM

"I have seen you acknowledge one. "
You are still miligng this and trying to score points Dave
I say what I believe - msitakes and all - you just refuse to respond on ther grounfds that the answer might incriminate you - worse than making a mistake in my book
All of you leapt on the table and screamed your silence when I quoted Martin Carthy's opinion of the how important folk song was - the silence was deafening
Apparently it's okay to lik Carthy's singing but when it comes to resonding to what he says - different matter altogether
The same when you were trying to put over Sheran's pop crap as soounding like folk
When I pointed out all the things that made folk song unique, the subjects they covered - humour, tragedy eroticism, war, seagoing, poaching, transportation.... compared to the whiigeing of an unidifiable feller whingeing about losing his equaklly unidentifiable girl.... total silence again
"The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trend"
No they.... didn't
Popular musical and social trends have always changed, particularly in the sixties and seventies when the folk scene was at its best
Folk music isn't prone to social and musical pressures - it is and always has been ageless and adaptable
This it utter nonsense - folk music would never have survived beyond the musical revolution of the 'Swingin' Sixties if it could be flushed down the jaxie
People left because they were no longer being given what they were looking for
I was there and saw it happen in club after club - I'm still in touch with many people who went through the same experience - and guess what - Crap really did beget crap
I really don't need any more Wiki links - even you don't believe them and you continue to post them ( tell me you didn't doubt the number of clubs the last one claimed)

"So.. have any of the big ballads ever been adapted into movies...???"
Interesting point - not really as far as I can remember, but I used to wonder why - I came to the conclusion they didn't pad out to well - too precise, economical and impersonal
In the nineties there were two fims using a folk motif - 'The Unquiet Grave' over-mourning one
The Hollywood one , Ghost' was typical Hollywood schmatz, but the British 'Truly, Madly, Deeply' made and excellent job of a centuries old plot - well worth looking out if you haven't seen it
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:16 PM

Various Robin Hood films?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:42 PM

Not sure this is wholly coherent:

Folk music isn't prone to social and musical pressures - it is and always has been ageless and adaptable.

Adaptable to what if not to 'social pressures' or, as D the G put it, 'social trends'?

Otherwise, whatever Jim's on, remind me not to take any of it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Andy7
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:22 PM

"People left because they were no longer being given what they were looking for"

There's something I don't understand here.

When I was younger, I was a member of, and active campaigner for, a certain political party. (I won't say which one, except to say that it cared quite a lot about the environment.)

During those years, I spent endless hours walking the streets knocking on doors, especially at election time; engaging in many interesting conversations, and trying to persuade people to consider our point of view.

And it used to annoy me no end, when I heard people whining, "That Labour/Conservative/LibDem Party obviously doesn't care much about my vote, none of them has even knocked on my door!"

"Well, if you think that people knocking on doors and sharing their opinions is important," I used to say, "Join whichever political party you do support, and go knocking on some doors yourself!"

The same with folk music. Was there really such a steady stream of people leaving folk clubs, saying, "Oh no, oh dear, no one cares about folk music any more," without any of them ever thinking of putting in the work to set up a new folk club themselves, for the kind of music that they, and apparently so many other people, loved, but which was no longer available in the existing clubs?

"People left because they were no longer being given what they were looking for"

... they were no longer 'being given' it. Interesting choice of words. But none of them could ever do anything themselves, to solve that easily solved problem?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:41 PM

"...And if you did not enjoy my song,
You've yourself to blame if it's too looooong.
You should never have let me begin, begin,
You should never have let me begin."

Saul


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:56 PM

I would say that it takes a really good singer to deliver one properly. Niamh Parsons probably the best I've heard.

As they are long you need to be able to hold people's attention.

Perhaps something like a driving test?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 19 - 02:11 AM

If putting the record straight is scoring points, Jim, the, yes, guilty as charged. You will however, hopefully, think again when you try to misquote me or tell people I said something I did not say. But I doubt it. As long as you keep making the same "mistakes", I will keep correcting them.

PFR. Dunno if any movies directly relate to ballads but plenty of the themes are used. Out of interest I once had the Book of Ballads, written by Neil Gaiman and Charles Vess. A few of the major ballads, including Tam Lin, in comic book format. Very well written and drawn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 19 - 02:21 AM

I have never been one for poetry. I like a good tale and something well written but I could never enthuse over poems like some people did. Until I was introduced to Peter Bellamy's songs putting Kipling's words to music. That really brought the poems to life for me. I guess most ballads may have the same effect.

What has this got to do with anything? Well, for me, neither the words nor the music are more important. It is a combination of the two that does it.

BTW, are the "Barrack Room Ballads" really ballads?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 19 - 03:14 AM

"they were no longer 'being given' it. Interesting choice of words."
You miss the point -
The clubs were grass-roots based - many of the people who left had been part of building up the scene that produced and ran the clubs and they relied on others with the same love and enthusiasm taking part in the running and becoming singers themselves
Im my case, and others like me, we visited several, sometimes many clubs, but as those clubs disappeared we confined ourselves to those that did what it said on the tin - we went to the folk clubs that dealt in folk and folk-based songs - they became less and less
The Singers Club lasted from the early sixties till MacColl died at the end of the 80s - doing what it promised the audiences what it would do
The other clubs were were involved in did the same (I understand one died the death a few years ago when two of the stalwarts gave up for health reasons)
The change of direction generally on the scene - the non-folk, folk clubs, are the ones that have killed off the scene

Back to the ballads
The age of mobile phones and television bleepers appears to have produced a generation with the attention span of mayflies
The ballads have been around for many, many centuries; 'Barbara Allan' was "an old Scotch lady" in 1666, when the Great Fire was destroying London
The ballad of 'Hind Horn' telling of the travelling husband returning from his travels to find his wife about to remarry, has its roots in Homer's tale of Ulysses returning from Troy to find his wife, Penelope about to do the same thing.
'Lord Gregory' is linked to Chaucer's tale of the White Queen's sea voyages.
Lord Bateman is associated with the commercial voyages of the father of Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Becket in the 12th century
The story of 'The Keach in the Creel' was told as a fabuleux concerning an Italian renaissance painter in the 1500s
The ballad Child overlooked, 'Bruton Town', was told as one of Boccaccio's 100 tales in the 1300s
We recorded a cante-fable entitled 'Go For the Water' from a non-literate Irish Traveller in the 1970s - it is a tale version of the ballad, 'Get Up and Bar the Door' which in it's turn is a ballad version of a tale which is related to one being told in Ancient Egypt about two tomb robbers eating stolen figs - Pre Christian         
If ballads no longer have a place in 21st century society, it has nothing to do with their value as pieces of art - it is us, with our memory span of may-flies who has dropped the ball

"whatever Jim's on, remind me not to take any of it!"
And yes - Mr ill-manner poster who chooses to hurl his insulting remarks from the safety of anonymity, our ballads and folk songs have survived and over-ridden social trends and popular fads for many centuries - even millennia in some cases

"I would say that it takes a really good singer to deliver one properly."
Not sure I entirely agree
Good singing certainly helps, but as long as a singer can handle the tune and remember the words, quite often the stories of the ballads are gripping enough for the listener to follow without a high level of skill
I love Niamh Parsons singing (I don't recall her singing too many ballads)
A few years ago, a Wexford couple, Michael Fortune and Aileen Lambert, mounted a project entitled, 'Man, Woman and Child' where they assembled a number of singers and, with the co-operation of the Irish National Library, put on a series of lunchtime concerts of Child ballads in various parts of Ireland (Niamh was one of the singers)
It worked like a charm, in next to no time you started to hear ballads being sung in places were previously there had been hardly any
Ireland has played a very important part in the survival of international ballads (particularly among the Travellers)
Collector, Tom Munnelly, listed fifty Child Ballads still being sung by source singers right into the 1970s
I have recently taken up Tom's original list and added to it considerably, particularly from Irish Emigrants who took some extremely rare ballads to America and Canada when they left Ireland during and after the Famine
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 19 - 03:15 AM

"Barrack Room Ballads" really ballads?"
Not really - and they tend to be doggerel
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 19 - 03:41 AM

I didn't think they were. I think the term has probably become overused and, to many, has lost its original meaning. Much like folk music. What would be a better term to describe a ballad to a non-folky?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 19 - 08:30 AM

Is there a Facebook or other forum where this discussion could be carried on with Jim blocked from accessing it? (There are several for local ballad groups, but they focus around local events).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: If you don't like ballads......
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 19 - 08:31 AM

To tell the truth I've been surprised at some of the songs described as ballads in this thread.
Henry Martin, the Gallant Frigate Amphitrite - for example. I thought these were just folk songs.

Is there a definition?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 16 October 2:44 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.