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BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'

meself 02 May 19 - 01:13 PM
frogprince 02 May 19 - 02:16 PM
keberoxu 02 May 19 - 02:25 PM
Joe Offer 02 May 19 - 02:36 PM
keberoxu 02 May 19 - 06:51 PM
leeneia 03 May 19 - 12:28 AM
Mrrzy 03 May 19 - 10:42 AM
Stilly River Sage 03 May 19 - 10:55 AM
Steve Parkes 03 May 19 - 01:51 PM
Jack Campin 03 May 19 - 05:26 PM
Little Hawk 03 May 19 - 06:10 PM
robomatic 03 May 19 - 09:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 May 19 - 10:00 PM
Little Hawk 03 May 19 - 11:17 PM
Thompson 06 May 19 - 03:28 AM
Tattie Bogle 06 May 19 - 05:49 PM
Allan Conn 07 May 19 - 02:46 AM
Jack Campin 07 May 19 - 06:34 AM
Mr Red 08 May 19 - 06:00 AM
Allan Conn 08 May 19 - 07:56 AM
Bill D 08 May 19 - 11:29 AM
robomatic 08 May 19 - 11:50 AM
Rusty Dobro 08 May 19 - 03:05 PM
Allan Conn 08 May 19 - 05:14 PM
Bat Goddess 08 May 19 - 05:27 PM
meself 08 May 19 - 06:49 PM
Allan Conn 09 May 19 - 12:23 PM
Allan Conn 09 May 19 - 12:47 PM
keberoxu 09 May 19 - 06:01 PM
Lighter 09 May 19 - 06:11 PM
Allan Conn 10 May 19 - 07:31 AM
Dorothy Parshall 10 May 19 - 02:11 PM
Mrrzy 10 May 19 - 05:29 PM
Bill D 10 May 19 - 10:16 PM
Jack Campin 11 May 19 - 12:56 AM
Allan Conn 11 May 19 - 04:01 AM
Allan Conn 11 May 19 - 04:14 AM
Allan Conn 11 May 19 - 04:38 AM
Allan Conn 11 May 19 - 04:48 AM
Allan Conn 11 May 19 - 04:53 AM
Allan Conn 11 May 19 - 04:54 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 19 - 08:37 AM
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Subject: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: meself
Date: 02 May 19 - 01:13 PM

[I'm starting a new thread here in order to avoid hi-jacking another one.]

Wikipedia, which is as far as I'm likely to go in researching this, says, "the earliest known American reference [to the term 'Scotch-Irish', as opposed to 'Scots-Irish'] appeared in a Maryland affidavit in 1689/90", cites several 18th century uses, while acknowledging it didn't become "popular" till after 1850.

My impression is that the term is commonly used by those Americans who believe it is an accurate designation of their ancestry, whether or not they are "racial fantasists and Protestant bigots" (from another post). I am willing to stand corrected, though ... Americans?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: frogprince
Date: 02 May 19 - 02:16 PM

When older members of our family line mentioned our ancestry, my sister and I always heard it as "English, Scotch, Irish, and Dutch"; much more recently, my sister remembered that and noted that the reference may well have started out as "Scotch-Irish". So far as usage in our family, it was oral tradition about our history with no emotional load about religion or politics whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 May 19 - 02:25 PM

I remember grade school, before university,
and I don't know if the class was
history or social studies or what.
But the term was standard and there was nothing argumentative about it.
No personal association for me, purely academic.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 19 - 02:36 PM

I don't think I ever heard the term "Scots" in the US until I was well into adulthood. The ancestry was the same as the whiskey - and the liquor was always spelled with an "e."
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 May 19 - 06:51 PM

Okay, I don't know who this author was,
The Honorable John Cornelius Linehan:
but he published , in 1902, something called:

The Irish Scots and the 'Scotch-Irish': An Historical and Ethnological Monograph, with some reference to Scotia Major and Scotia Minor, to which is added a chapter on 'How the Irish Came as Builders of the Nation.'
This was published by the American-Irish Historical Society of Concord, New Hampshire.

Me, I found it on Google Books.
That at least conveys an idea of how long
that term has been in use in the Northeastern U. S.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: leeneia
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:28 AM

My grandfather was born in Indiana in 1888, and his people before him were proud to be Scotch-Irish. He left the farm and worked in industry in various cities, big and small. He was a union man, almost a socialist and the opposite of racist.

He had no religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:42 AM

I find Scotch and Scots equivalent in this context. Scots is not a drink, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:55 AM

I heard the term Scots-Irish, but my father never admitted to the Scottish heritage (from his mother's side) so we were Irish, Danish, and Norwegian. I've heard the debate about whether it is Scots-Irish or Scottish-Irish for most of my adult years.

"Scotch is whiskey/whisky" is usually the answer to someone saying they're Scotch-Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 May 19 - 01:51 PM

I was once told by Someone Who Knows These Things that it's Irish whiskey-with-an-E and Scotch whisky-without-an-E. (I can almost tell the difference with my eyes shut, but I need more practice.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 May 19 - 05:26 PM

I first heard the term used to describe Richard Nixon. The reasoning seemed to be that such an evil shit couldn't be an all-American creature, they could offload some of the blame on his Orange genes.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:10 PM

It means a drunken Irishman who has consumed a large amount of whiskey.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: robomatic
Date: 03 May 19 - 09:29 PM

I first noticed the term when very young looking at a poster dated from the 50s or 60s of the American Presidents in order of service. For nationality the great majority of them were listed Scotch Irish or Scotch-Irish and I noted the term without understanding the term. It was noticed while not being understood because I knew that being Scotch and being Irish were two similar but different things. I did not understand the combination.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:00 PM

Catholic or Protestant if it's from Ireland it's whiskey, and if it's from Scotland it's whisky.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 19 - 11:17 PM

Shane is 100% Irish, but he will drink Scotch if it is provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Thompson
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Please don't indulge jokes about supposedly drunken Irish people, unless you would also make jokes about black people and watermelon and Jewish people and big noses.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:49 PM

Now it is considered incorrect to talk about "Scotch" people and the term should only be applied to Scotch whisky (no e, as others have said!) However, a few centuries back, music was written and described as "A Scotch measure", and contained "Scotch snaps" tho' now they would be referred to as Scottish snaps, and the people of my country as Scots. (one t!)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 07 May 19 - 02:46 AM

"I find Scotch and Scots equivalent in this context. Scots is not a drink, though."

Depends where you are! The term "Scotch" was seemingly originally an English term which came into use in Scotland too at a certain date often replacing the home terms of Scots or Scottish (there are various older spellings of these terms like Scottis). At some point, I suspect maybe in the early to mid 20thC, in the wake of the Scottish Literary Renaissance the term Scotch started to fall out of use in Scotland itself and the home grown terms Scots and Scottish reasserted themselves. So in Scotland for the most part the term "Scotch" became more restricted to a descriptive term for certain things like Scotch whisky, Scotch mist, Scotch eggs etc etc. Whereas when talking about themselves or their country Scottish people tend to prefer the terms Scots or Scottish. That change in usage didn't happen so much in the diaspora hence the word Scotch is more common with them when talking about people. But if you call a Scottish person "Scotch" there is a fair chance that they will correct you. They are not likely to be offended but will commonly say "no I am Scottish or Scots" So they are not equivalent terms in Scotland itself.

The term "Scotch Irish" AFAIK tends to be a North American term for the Scottish emigrants who first travelled to Ireland as part of the Ulster Plantation then at some point moved on from there across the Atlantic. This side of the Atlantic both in Scotland and in Ireland itself the descendents of this community tend to be called "Ulster Scots" rather than "Scotch Irish".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:34 AM

"Scotch snap" is the standard term.

We don't talk about "butterscottish" either.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 19 - 06:00 AM

when did the meaning of scotch (verb) become attached to something akin to a chock, wedge or doorstop?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 May 19 - 07:56 AM

I think that word "scotch" in that context is a completely different non-related word from "Scotch" which is an English contraction of "Scottish". The COD gives "scotch" as in to hold back or stop slipping as perhaps coming from an Old French word "escache"

Likewise another non related word to "Scotch" is the word "scotch" meaning to put an end to something which is down as a Middle English word of unknown origin.

Likewise there is the term "scot free" which again is unrelated to the country Scotland or its people. This comes from the word "scot" which was another word for a tax from Old Norse "skot" or Old French "escot"


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 19 - 11:29 AM

When I, a 12th generation 'American' was young, I was told that I was "Scots-Irish" ..plus French, Indian & English.

Now that I am deep into the research, I find that while the above is technically true, I have almost NO Irish and am over 90% English... with 'some' of the English going back to those who 'emigrated' from Normandy. I also have some Dutch & Welsh.
It can be difficult for many to trace the details of their past, depending on where & when their ancestors settled and what records were kept. Because my father's family moved from "the colonies" in Delaware, Mass., Conn., N.J. etc.. to western Pennsylvania, there are many records to follow back across the pond.

These days, DNA can give one a pretty good idea of where... if not names & details.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: robomatic
Date: 08 May 19 - 11:50 AM

Right now I identify as Epsilon Eridani. So far it's working for non-resident taxation! Going with a DNA analysis would only slow me down.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:05 PM

Until the mid 19th century, 'Scotch' was the adjective used on both sides of the border - Scotch beef, Scotch Express or Mail (trains), Scotch mist, Scotch broth, etc. Then along came Prince Albert who married Queen Victoria, and the UK went mad for all things German, including his use of the word 'scottisch', which became 'scottish'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:14 PM

Again “Scotch” was an English contraction that also became common in Scotland with other anglicisations of the language in Scotland but it never replaced completely the Scottish forms which were “Scottish” or “Scots” often with the early spelling “Scottis”. So Scotch was "an adjective" that came to be used but was not "the adjective". Earlier usage saw Scots more commonly used if you read earlier Scottish literature. The term “Scottish” certainly wasn’t introduced by Prince Albert and was commonly used before Victorian times. My understanding has always been that the imported term “Scotch” fell out of popular use in the wake of the Scottish Literary Renaissance of the early to mid 20thC. Same as when other affectations like the over use of apostrophes in literary Scots started to be looked down on by the literarati who wished to go back to more native usage. People like Burns used the term Scotch as it was also being used widely in Scotland by his time but he also used the home grown Scottish terms. There is plenty of evidence of “Scots” and “Scottish” being used prior to Victorian times and the likes of the Concise Scots Dictionary confirms “Scotch” was an imported English usage.

Robert Burns – “Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame – fareweel even tae our Scottish name” and “We think na on the long Scots miles”

Walter Scott writing on Ossian in 1806 “I should be no Scottish man if I had not very tentatively considered it”

In fact if you read Scott’s journal you’ll see Scottish was the common adjective he tended to use.

1695 Act Establishing The Company Of Scotland – “the halfe at least shall be appoynted and allotted for Scottish men within this kingdom”


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:27 PM

As taught in grade school and high school in the 1950s and 1960s, the term (usually about the origins of the people who settled the Appalachian region) had absolutely no religious or political connotations. And it was decades before I made the connection that "Scotch-Irish" were Ulster Protestants.

And I don't believe I ever heard "Scots" instead of "Scotch" until the 1980s.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: meself
Date: 08 May 19 - 06:49 PM

Bill D: Just to clarify: when you were young, you were told you were"SCOTS-Irish" - not "SCOTCH-Irish"?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 May 19 - 12:23 PM

"I find that while the above is technically true, I have almost NO Irish and am over 90% English..."

The Ulster Plantation was a mixture of Scottish and English settlers so I imagine that some English did blend in to the Ulster Scots/Scotch Irish community. Let's face it some of the English came from northern England too and there would have been no significant difference between them and their Scottish counterparts north of the border. The Scots and English settlers would have probably have been closer to each other than either community was to the Catholic Irish. The big bulk of the Scots settlers were from southern Scotland that is Ayrshire, Galloway, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire, Dumfriesshire and the Scottish Borders. I think the point is they weren't actually Irish. At least not initially. There would have been some intermarrying of course but I suppose it depends on how long they were there as to how Irish they became. The biggest numbers moved from Scotland to Ulster in the 1690s. according to professor Devine more moved in that decade than the rest of the 17thC put together. How long would they be there before some moved on to the States. A generation, not even for some I imagine, or perhaps several generations for a few.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 May 19 - 12:47 PM

It is strange how terms take hold or don't take hold. In the first edition of Ullans (the magazine for writing in Ulster-Scots) there is an article on the poet Robert Huddleston who was born in 1814. He wrote his poems in his own Ulster-Scots dialect. He seems to deny the terms Ulster-Scots or Scotch-Irish. He uses the term Ulster-Irish instead. I would naturally think Ulster-Irish as being the native Gaelic Irish population as I imagine most would think that. But not Huddleston........

"I may not be a Robert Burns to the Lowland Scottish peasantry but at least, let me hope, that I shall one day be a Robert Huddleston to the Ulster Irish"

His reasoning is that in his view the Ulster Scots community were not alien settlers and interlopers but were simply returning to their homeland. ie In regard to the idea that the Scots came originally from Ireland anyway.

He claims that those who called the language Scots or Scotch did so "in unmeaning eccentricity" as that would "tear even the credit of language from its mother land". This of course makes no logical sense as Scots is descended from the Northumbrian dialect of Old Anglo-Saxon and was not brought over by the Gaels from Ireland. It shows how terms can be complicated though and may mean different things to different folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 May 19 - 06:01 PM

This is the first time
that I have ever heard the term
"Ulster Scots"
and it makes far more sense to me
than "scotch-irish".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Lighter
Date: 09 May 19 - 06:11 PM

Maybe another reason for the avoidance of "Scotch" is that it used to be a colloquial synonym for "stingy."

E.g., "Don't be so scotch." "She's scotch."

My mother used this term routinely.

She had no prejudice against the Scots. It was just a word. Like "hopscotch."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:31 AM

I honestly don't think (here in Scotland anyway) that the word Scotch falling out of favour had anything to do with the stereotype of the mean and miserly Scot. It was a general Scottish stereotype and not restricted to the word Scotch. These stereotypes are diminished from what they were but here in the UK two general stereotypes were/are that the Scots are miserly and mean whilst the Irish are thick and stupid. It is still quite common here in Scotland to hear someone say "how Irish is that?" if something appears daft or doesn't make sense. I agree it doesn't mean people saying it are anti-Irish but it is a targeted stereotype none the less.

When I was young it was quite common here in the Scottish Borders anyway to hear mean or miserly behaviour being described as Jewish! Indeed there is a high road near Jedburgh from where you can view the rugby ground without paying and it is was referred to as the 'Jew's Gallery'. And the term "play the white man" to mean act fairly - as if not whites would not act fairly. Folks would generally keep well clear of using these nowadays. I suppose because Scots aren't an oppressed minority like these other groups then the stereotype appears softer and non sinister! Scots in general would just laugh it off - and within Scotland we have the same thing where Aberdonians are stereotyped as miserly.

I honestly think that the word "Scotch" fell out of favour from the 1920s and afterwards because of the Scottish Literary Renaissance where native terms were applied more - and writers in general and probably later the public came to view the word "Scotch" as being more of the kailyard, associated with twee Brigadoonery etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 10 May 19 - 02:11 PM

To confuse matters further:

I was raised in Pennsylvania. As a child, I was told, by someone, that Scotch-Irish were the descendants of the Scots who moved into Ireland and became (not very popular)land owners but were not above mixing with the local population, thus producing "Scotch-Irish". As I have never had very good auditory processing, I might have been told "Scots-Irish". It seemed there were "Scots-Irish"in the family tree.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:29 PM

By "in this context" I meant "in the phrase Scotch/Scots Irish" as used by Americans. Sorry I was unclear.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Bill D
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:16 PM

meself.. all I remember is that it was 'Scottish' I don't remember the exact phrase used 60 years ago. Because I NOW know the correct form, my mind tends to edit the memory.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 19 - 12:56 AM

Ulster Scots language, dialects and revival

They seem to want Scots language advocates to be more enthusiastic about what they're doing. In practice it's too politicized for there to be much common ground. Brexit would wreck everything they're doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 19 - 04:01 AM

Dorothy there would indeed have been some intermarriage but the terms Ulster Scots or Scotch Irish didn't actually come about because families were half Scottish and half Irish - it was because it was a Scottish emigrant community living in Ireland. The Plantation of Ulster came about when James VI of Scotland became James I of England on the death of Queen Elizabeth of England. James had already tried a smaller scale Plantation of Lowland Scots into part of the south-west Highlands. Land was stripped from native Irish land-holders and given to new English and Scottish land owners divided almost equally between the two nationalities. The actual land owners were small in number and the vast bulk of the incomers were poor tenants. The new tenants were both English and Scottish with the Scots tending to be settled in certain areas which became the main centres of the Ulster Scots community there. The numbers were significant by the 1630s but not massive. During the civil war period the numbers reduced because of the hostilities with the native Irish. After that period they grew again reaching a peak in the 1690s when Scotland was in the grip of economic decline and a severe famine in the period called "the ill years" and huge numbers of Scots were moving to Ulster. From there many then later moved on across the Atlantic as many also emigrated to America directly from Scotland too. When Ireland went independent in the early 20thC many in Ulster strongly wished to remain within the UK. Many of the people who wished to remain in the UK would be the descendants of these 17thC Scottish and English migrants. Hence you ended up with a divided Ireland. With the bulk of what had been Ulster forming Northern Ireland which is still part of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 19 - 04:14 AM

I suppose an easy comparison for Scotch-Irish is think of Italian-Americans. They are people born and living in America who are of mainly Italian descent. Just as Ulster Scots/Scotch Irish were people who were born and living in Ireland who were of mainly Scottish descent. Many then moved on across the Atlantic where I suppose they became Scotch-Irish Americans but my that is starting to get complicated :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 19 - 04:38 AM

You are right Jack in that in the UK the minority home languages have a measure of protection under the European Charter. Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Welsh and to a lesser degree Scots, Ulster Scots, Manx and Cornish. Not sure what, if anything, would replace the charter. Not such an issue here in Scotland but it is a hot potato in Northern Ireland - and I understand one of the main stumbling blocks over the devolved power sharing being up and running again is over a proposed Irish language act. Not sure what the details are.....


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 19 - 04:48 AM

Gist of it seems to be Sinn Fein wish to introduce a stand alone Irish Language Act which the DUP are vehemently opposed to unless Ulster-Scots is also included. Something like that anyway though I imagine there is much more to it. Seems daft if the whole government in Northern Ireland is at an impasse because of that though. Surely the two sides can agree to look at things and work it through!!! No wonder that priest had a real go at all the politicians at that recent funeral. http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/02/14/news/irish-language-debate-hinders-hopes-of-stormont-power-sharing-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 19 - 04:53 AM

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/02/14/news/irish-language-debate-hinders-hopes-of-stormont-power-sharing-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 19 - 04:54 AM

Sorry link not wanting to work


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Subject: RE: BS: The Term 'Scotch-Irish'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 19 - 08:37 AM

Well I don't know how things are in the US, but here the use of "Scotch" in relation to Scotland and Scottish people is regarded with disfavour, and if you talk about "Scotch people" or "the Scotch" as a race you will be regarded as ignorant. "Scotch-Irish" is an unhelpful term and it's far better to find a substitute. The term "Scotch" should be used only for those other things we've mentioned, such as Scotch whisky, butterscotch, hopscotch, Scotch broth, Scotch mist, etc. And you're no less ignorant if you write "Scotch whiskey." If I'm just talking about "whisky" in generic terms that's the spelling I personally default to, though "whiskey" is fine if that's the way you want it. That's how things are these days this end, as I see them anyway.


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