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uk folk clubs high standard

The Sandman 27 Apr 19 - 09:52 AM
The Sandman 27 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM
The Sandman 27 Apr 19 - 10:14 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Apr 19 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Apr 19 - 01:23 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Apr 19 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Jon 27 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 19 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Cj 27 Apr 19 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 19 - 04:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Apr 19 - 09:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 19 - 03:05 AM
r.padgett 28 Apr 19 - 03:13 AM
The Sandman 28 Apr 19 - 03:30 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 03:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 19 - 04:04 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM
Jack Campin 28 Apr 19 - 05:02 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 19 - 05:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Apr 19 - 05:32 AM
The Sandman 28 Apr 19 - 05:42 AM
The Sandman 28 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 28 Apr 19 - 06:52 AM
The Sandman 28 Apr 19 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 28 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 08:09 AM
Andy7 28 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Cujimmy 28 Apr 19 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 28 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM
r.padgett 28 Apr 19 - 02:19 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Apr 19 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 19 - 03:19 AM
Iains 29 Apr 19 - 03:52 AM
r.padgett 29 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM
r.padgett 29 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 19 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 29 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Apr 19 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 19 - 07:10 AM
Vic Smith 29 Apr 19 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 19 - 09:43 AM
The Sandman 29 Apr 19 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,kenny 29 Apr 19 - 09:51 AM
The Sandman 29 Apr 19 - 09:53 AM
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Subject: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:52 AM

I have played two folk clubs within the last week where the standard of floor singers and tradtional singing were high, they were the welly club at wolvistion teesside, asnd the Ryburn folk club run by PETE AND SUE COE The week before that i played Norwich folk club again high standards of singers playing trad songs.
with the greatest respect i advise Jim Carroll to visit these clubs next time he is in the UK.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

http://www.thewilsonfamilyalbum.co.uk/welly_folk_club.aspx


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 10:14 AM

https://www.ryburn3step.org.uk/?page_id=66


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 10:20 AM

Well done, Dick!


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM

I'm very happy for you, but it proves very little. You're hardly going to post here that the clubs which give you a booking are shite, are you ?


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:23 PM

Troll alert!


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM

It's a fair question. Answer ?


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:56 PM

Positive beats negative in my book.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

Troll alert!

Probably but I'd also have doubts about artists publicly grading folk clubs.

That said, I enjoyed Norwich the times I went there, mostly for singers nights. It's been a while though and the last time I went, a few years back was really to say hello to a booked artist, someone I'd had enjoyable times with many years previously in "Bangor Festivals" (just long weekends of Irish sessions).

Finding opportunities closer to my own main interests, increasingly limited transport and, these days, less enthusiasm all get in the way... But if it (I think currently in the Christ Church Centre) remains similar, it's a nice club for those who enjoy a slightly more formal, occasional (sort of 1 in 4?) guest booking club.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM

Jon, I'd also have doubts about artists publicly 'grading' folk clubs, but all Dick was doing here was giving a very positive impression of 3 clubs he has been to recently. I don't always agree with Dick, but I do trust his judgment in these matters. It makes a refreshing change from the scene-bashers we often get on here.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 03:18 PM

UK? I think you mean "England". The clubs you played at don't allow you to make any judgements on clubs in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 03:44 PM

What a twat you are, unnamed guest.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 04:45 PM

Abuse solves nothing, and says more about you than "guest". What was factually innacurate about what was posted?


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:36 PM

Well I suppose it was an attack on Dick's integrity. Personally I'm speechless with admiration for anyone who flogs around the country -in fact leaves the country he's living in , just to do folk gigs.

As for English folk clubs having very high standards, I will take Dick's word for it. He's a fine musician and well able to judge.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:05 AM

But did anyone sing Waterloo or The Birdie Song?

(Ducking and running)

:D tG


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:13 AM

The standard, frequency and abundance of high quality singers and songs goes beyond folk clubs ~ folk clubs? some can claim that title, no doubt mainly traditional based?

Concert clubs and other venues also host Folky guests in whatever format

and folk singarounds all provide great folk based meetings

Folk song music and dance all alive and kicking in UK

Ray


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:30 AM

Yes the folk clubs i mentioned are tradtional based, that is because that is the material i perform so logically,i am more likely to be booked by those than by a blues based club.
however some years ago i did a floor spot at Dartford, none of the other floor singers did uk tradtional or uk trad based material, it was mainly bluegrass, but the standard was high.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:45 AM

Is it "scene bashing" negativity to point out that not so long ago an article claiming a rise in the success of the folk scene was based on there being 186 clubs and only a few of those would specialise in traditional or traditionally based material?
I suggest that the complacency here damages any chance of improving things
Sorry to be the spectre at the feast - I thought it needed one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 04:04 AM

Yes it is, no it doesn't and it didn't.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

"Well I suppose it was an attack on Dick's integrity". It was nothing of the kind. A question was asked which still requires an answer.
A more accurate "subject" headline would have been "High Standard of Music at 3 English Folk Clubs".


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM

"Yes it is, no it doesn't and it didn't."
If you're reffering to my post Dave - if your description of the "successful folk scene" is accurate, yes it most certainly did for those who care about the future of English folk song
Back-slapping and pretending all is well is destroying any chance of future for English folk music
The scene is in crisis if theer are only 186 clubs
Jim


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:02 AM

You can't get lower in integrity than anonymous sneering.

I'd take a recommendation from Dick as a reason to visit a club, though it would be sheer fluke if I was ever in a position to visit the ones he's played in lately.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:16 AM

Where's the "sneering"?


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:32 AM

Dick I'm glad you had some nice gigs.
I don't want to argue with this character who has intinated that the only reason you've posted this is because they gave you a gig, and you couldn't really say the clubs were shite. then he/she says - he's not attacking your integrity.

I'd like to support you in this, but it doesn't do me any good getting worked up.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:42 AM

APRIL 28 2017, I PLAYED AT BIRMINGHAM TRAD FOLK CLUB,Ioften make notes about clubs i have played and my comments atthe time was high standard of singing


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM

Jim ,i think e both appreciate approx the same kind of music, just letting you know ones that you might enjoy


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 06:06 AM

We do Dick "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"
Jim


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 06:52 AM

I have played all clubs mentioned with the exception of the Wellie, and couldn't agree more with Dick. The only thing I don't understand is why you are remotely bothered about what Jim Carroll thinks?
I gave up some time ago. You're a better man than me Dick!


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 07:08 AM

guest, the following post made before your remark mentioned Dartford folk club a club that has never booked me, i mentioned i did a floor spot and then mentioned the high quality of other floor singers which rater disproves your assertion that i am only mentioining it to get rebooked at clubs
Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:30 AM

Yes the folk clubs i mentioned are tradtional based, that is because that is the material i perform so logically,i am more likely to be booked by those than by a blues based club.
however some years ago i did a floor spot at Dartford, none of the other floor singers did uk tradtional or uk trad based material, it was mainly bluegrass, but the standard was high.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 07:22 AM

"...why you are remotely bothered about what Jim Carroll thinks?"
I can't understand why you should refer to anything I say if you're not bothered about it Nick
Probably why I don't bother replying to you
I have at no time insulted you o even disagreed with you
I may have argued with a friend of yoursds, but that is no reason for you to be so damn rude
We're here to exchange ideas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

See what I mean?


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 08:09 AM

"See what I mean?"
That was a polite reply Nick
You want to start a vendetta, feel free - I have no intention of responding to ant any more
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Andy7
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM

If I started a thread called 'The sun is shining today in Southampton', I'm sure it wouldn't be long before I got posts like:

"No, I don't think it is; what evidence do you have to back up your statement?"

"What use is that to us? Do you know whether it's shining in Bristol today? Or in Wolverhampton?"

"So what ... it no longer shines anywhere near as well as it did in the old days."


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Cujimmy
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 09:26 AM

It would be a very interesting and enjoyable conversation here if good quality singers at Folk Clubs were the subject instead of people trying to get one over on each other.

The Folk clubs I attend ie The Grove in Leeds and the Topic in Bradford have seen a lot of wonderful singers, but especially recently some so good in fact they are doing very well for themselves, people like Ewan McLennan, Sam Barrett, Bella Gaffney, cohen braithwaite-kilcoyne and others. Its always good to see people who start off building their confidence doing floor spots then evolving into very talented Folk artists as mentioned above.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM

The main club I help run is concert style, stage, pa and up to 120 tickets available. Usually 50-60 sold although the likes of Jez Lowe, Martin Simpson / Carthy etc fill it.

We try to book young talent gaining reputations such as (recently) Rowan Piggott and Rosie Hodgson, Trials of Cato, Ninebarrow and many more, with some heroes over the years such as Steve Tilston, Dave Burland, Rick Kemp, Archie Fisher etc.

Our support acts are our club members, and whilst not wishing to comment one way or another on my own set, the standard of our supports is (otherwise!) very high. This is because people are spending £10-£12 on a ticket so we have a responsibility to our supporters. We have the occasional club night where we are delighted to find future supports and indeed one who came this route has his own main act booking this year. Two teenagers who started with us now have agents and are entertaining on the folk and roots circuit.

Conversely, I help run a club elsewhere which is more inclusive of people wishing to sing and hear others at all levels.

It's horses for courses. If we booked Dick at the former I'm sure his observations would hold true here but if he popped in at the latter, he would hear something very different.

I never compare my two clubs. They are both very different. Yet both loosely called folk clubs although neither fit a general description.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 02:19 PM

"The scene is in crisis if theer are only 186 clubs"

I do not agree ~but some definition of "the scene" Mr Carroll please?

Ray


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:50 PM

Jim,
I don't think you have once responded to many people stating that the nature of the folk scene in the UK has changed a lot since the late 70s. Ray has just referred to precisely this, that it is much more diverse in the number and type of venue/event it now operates in, sessions, singarounds, village halls, concerts, festivals. Does it really matter that the number of 'folk clubs' has declined if that music is now taking place in a variety of other ways.


Others have also offered the many diverse reasons why the number of 'folk clubs' has declined.

Other than that you have been given numerous examples of actual clubs where the music is thriving, the quality of floor singers is of a high standard, and the healthy numbers of artists, young and old, who are still making their living touring the clubs. Some of them regularly respond to your negativity in self-imposed exile!

Response please!!!!


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 03:19 AM

I have said ecxatly not only how the scene has declined but why it has declined - over and over again
It no longer guarantees that a prospective puter will hear a folk song if he or she turns up to a folk club - simple as that
People have written about feeling "out of place" or "unwelcome" if they sing unaccompanied folk songs - one contributor to this forum described ballads as "inappropriate"
Pat pointed out to me last night that a survey was carried out some time in th seventies that suggested there were around 1,600 clubs in Britain - Dave puts up 186 as evidence of a "successful folk scene" - do the math and come back and tell me that is an improvement, or even holding its own
People on this forum, during these exchanges have described the need to set a standard of performance (not particularly high) in folk clubs as "elitism" - the same with the use of crib sheets and mobile pads, rather than learning the words
One of the worst aspects of the scene is the move away from grass-roots, resident based local clubs to festivals and booked guests

If club numbers have fallen to the extent they have and if you can no longer go to the remaining clubs and hear anything resembling folk songs then the scene is not only on the decline, it's on its last legs
When arguments are put up here not just excusing that decline, but justifying it as "success" from people I feel I should be respecting - that confirms it
PLease don't ask me to respond when I've repeateed this over and over again, try responding to what I write instead

As we headed a letter we sent to 'The Living Tradition' some years ago "Where Have All the Folk Songs Gone ?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 03:52 AM

Could it be that today the folk scene has many more participants rather than passive audiences? Hence the demand for more varied venues and decline of the conventional stage, performer, audience of yore. Times change as does the traditional performer and audience.
Anyone can afford a guitar today,this makes participation far easier.
(My attention span and interest in unaccompanied singing is severely limited. imperfections in voice, delivery, inflection, etc, etc have no place to hide when there are no additional instruments) Strictly a personal view,but I suspect shared by others.
People also go to be entertained,not to be dictated to as to what may or may not be perceived as a folk song. That information can be obtained from a library and that also will present a complete spectrum of views.
Constantly defining the minutae of the pigeonholing simply drives people away.
If youwant education go to a library, if you want entertainment go to a club. Simples!


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Round in circles ~

Q It no longer guarantees that a prospective puter will hear a folk song if he or she turns up to a folk club - simple as that

A Punter is not a word I like in relation to folk gatherings

Q/A Folk clubs ~please define what you understand by Folk songs ~ the modern definition includes traditional but many written songs are regularly sung at folk gatherings folk gatherings are places of social entertainment also

A Pubs continue to be flattened and house built ~so the folk clubs of old continue to diminish

A
the Polka Hop in Wakefield and Fernandes Tap has "mixed sessions" singing and playing well attended per month

A The Kelham Island Tavern, Sheffield monthly Sunday pm event attracts unaccompanied singers singing largely Traditional song (no accompaniment) with professional singers such a Jess and Richard Arrowsmith, James Fagan, Matt Quinn and Rosie Hood ~ work permitting

Q People have written about feeling "out of place" or "unwelcome" if they sing unaccompanied folk songs - one contributor to this forum described ballads as "inappropriate" singers or audience??

A Times they are a changing!

Q Pat pointed out to me last night that a survey was carried out some time in the seventies that suggested there were around 1,600 clubs in Britain - Dave puts up 186 as evidence of a "successful folk scene" - do the math and come back and tell me that is an improvement, or even holding its own

A I disagree ~ successful folkscene has moved away from pubs ( they are diminishing see above) but concert clubs and alternative venues are being sought and have been established in the circuits and continue to attract paying customers ~current example Show of Hands at Barnsley Civic theatre May 2019

Q People on this forum
during these exchanges have described the need to set a standard of performance (not particularly high) in folk clubs as "elitism" - the same with the use of crib sheets and mobile pads, rather than learning the word

A Yes in Folk clubs where these still exist not a good idea to have new singers as support for an expensive guest

One of the worst aspects of the scene is the move away from grass-roots, resident based local clubs to festivals and booked guests

A The problem is that weekly supporters are often the life blood of the folk club and often do not want to see paid guest and stay away !!

Singing and singers can be awkward !!!

Ray


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Round in circles ~

Q It no longer guarantees that a prospective puter will hear a folk song if he or she turns up to a folk club - simple as that

A Punter is not a word I like in relation to folk gatherings

Q/A Folk clubs ~please define what you understand by Folk songs ~ the modern definition includes traditional but many written songs are regularly sung at folk gatherings folk gatherings are places of social entertainment also

A Pubs continue to be flattened and house built ~so the folk clubs of old continue to diminish

A
the Polka Hop in Wakefield and Fernandes Tap has "mixed sessions" singing and playing well attended per month

A The Kelham Island Tavern, Sheffield monthly Sunday pm event attracts unaccompanied singers singing largely Traditional song (no accompaniment) with professional singers such a Jess and Richard Arrowsmith, James Fagan, Matt Quinn and Rosie Hood ~ work permitting

Q People have written about feeling "out of place" or "unwelcome" if they sing unaccompanied folk songs - one contributor to this forum described ballads as "inappropriate" singers or audience??

A Times they are a changing!

Q Pat pointed out to me last night that a survey was carried out some time in the seventies that suggested there were around 1,600 clubs in Britain - Dave puts up 186 as evidence of a "successful folk scene" - do the math and come back and tell me that is an improvement, or even holding its own

A I disagree ~ successful folkscene has moved away from pubs ( they are diminishing see above) but concert clubs and alternative venues are being sought and have been established in the circuits and continue to attract paying customers ~current example Show of Hands at Barnsley Civic theatre May 2019

Q People on this forum
during these exchanges have described the need to set a standard of performance (not particularly high) in folk clubs as "elitism" - the same with the use of crib sheets and mobile pads, rather than learning the word

A Yes in Folk clubs where these still exist not a good idea to have new singers as support for an expensive guest

One of the worst aspects of the scene is the move away from grass-roots, resident based local clubs to festivals and booked guests

A The problem is that weekly supporters are often the life blood of the folk club and often do not want to see paid guest and stay away !!

Singing and singers can be awkward !!!

Ray


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:28 AM

"A Punter is not a word I like in relation to folk gatherings"
Immaterial to this - people going to a folk club atre entitles to get what the club calls itself
How can you object to the worrd punter if you don't object to a club calling itself "folk" when it doesn't do just that ?
Naming a handful of clubs that do when the scene has diminished by at least a thousand is meaningless
Concerts are where people go to be formed at - as I said, the club scene has lost its grass roots aspect
Any half decent scene can exist without guests otr the occasional guest
The malaise has even spread to teh researchers where folk aint folk anymore among them as well thatks to arbitrary re-definitions
Pretending that all is well isn't helping Ray
Jim


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM

The “scene” hasn’t declined just because someone no longer has any experience of it to relate.

In fact, since the population of Ireland increased by two, it may well have become more enjoyable in The UK. ??


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:46 AM

An argument that there are fewer folk clubs because clubs started to include music not counting as 'folk' in some definitions, and so people stopped turning up would seem to be specious, as if there were a demand for that sort of music the clubs, logically, would have continued to provide it. Why would they stop providing stuff that people wanted to hear? Even a weaker form of the argument, to the effect that such clubs did not provide exclusively 'folk-in-a-particular-definition, but drove people away by also providing not-folk so horrid that people were deterred from coming seems difficult to sustain.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 07:10 AM

"if there were a demand for that sort of music the clubs, logically, would have continued to provide it. "
If that is not the case then the existing clubs would no longer be folk clubs and flying under false colours
The decline was gradual and, while the demand remained (and still does) those who couldn't find it stopped going - not everyone has the time or ability to set up a new scene - they shouldn't have to
It's like being evicted from your house and being told "if you want somewhere to live, go and buy another one"
What other definition of "folk" is there other than the one that has been fully documented ?
No-one has come up with one so far
People are entitled to put out whatever they want - if they are conning people by telling them it is something it isn't, that's sharp practice
The importance of folk music reaches far beyond the dwindling number of clubs - try calling shanty singing 'Grand Opera' and see how har you'd get
Folk song is what it has been known as since at least F J Child called his collection 'Popular Ballads (Popular = of the people'
The songs are the creation o the 'ordinary people' - their creation and their history - as such they deserve respect
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 08:33 AM

Folk song existed long before folk clubs and the folk revival started and there is every reason to suppose that they will continue in their ever changing form after folk clubs have ceased to exist.

The folk clubs are a particularly British institution existing in Scotland, Wales and England. At a meal with Jerry O'Reilly this weekend, he stated that the places that are called 'folk clubs' in Ireland are run in a way that is very different from the rest of the British Isles.

I have sought out and found evenings of traditional music and song in countries as far apart as Turkey, the USA, the Gambia, Morocco and Hungary. All of them featured lovely traditional music presented in different ways, none were anything like folk clubs. What all of them shared was a sense that the presentation of a shared music that helps to cement communal identity and promote pride in their own way of doing things. I have never been to Puglia before, but I will be there in June and by asking around, I expect to find venues or locations where I can enjoy tarantella and pizzica song music and dance that I know exists there, just as I was able to find Cantu a tenore in Sardinia. All these are different ways in which ordinary people find their ordinary venacular secular and religious expression of feelings.

I love folk clubs; otherwise why would I have run them for fifty years; but I would consider myself very narrow minded if I thought they were the be all and end all.

Traditional music and song is characterised by continuity, orality, certain cultural traits, linguistic expressions, and change and this distinguishes it from classical and popular musics. One of the ways that it is changing in the UK as Steve and myself and others with a long involvement have pointed out is that the folk song and music is taking its part on a much wider mix of presentational formats and in my opinion this is healthy. To fixate on folk clubs alone is to miss the bigger picture.


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 09:43 AM

The clubs were our platform for a specific type of music Vic
Take them away and we become a bunch of eccentrics potternignabout in the past
They provided entertainment for an entire generation and allowed them to participate rather than just passive observers
Go compare the number of say, participating Folk Song Forum members to the many thousand who listened sang played, wrote articles, collected.... and took their interest further
Without the clubs thi would never have happened and the people's songs would have remained in Sharp and Co's drawing rooms   
Abandoning the clubs would be to deprive future generations of the pleasure and interest that we got from the scene

Ireland has never had a major folk scene comparable to the UK
Gerry's Goilin is little difference to many of the clubs I attended back in England - it lacks the formality, not a bad thing, but you are guaranteed a night of good, largely traditional songs, sung well enough to make it worthwhile turning up the following week - it's recently celebrated its 40th anniversary
It runs an annual festival in memory of one of its leading supporters, Frank Harte, and it has recently started a workshop to encourage women singers - it is a folk club in all but name
Over the last few years, a new club in Dublin, at the Cobblestone Pub in Smithfied, started by mainly young singers, has built up an interest in traditional songs, with an impressive line up of singers
Whatever you chose to call them. I see no alternative to the clubs
I find it sad that so may have abandoned them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 09:46 AM

i have found singers circles and singers clubs very similar to folk clubs the only difference is for example the goilin club in ireland banning instrumental accompaniment,
it makes no diffrence to me because unlike steve turner and martin carthy, i am versatile enough to do an evening unaccompanied no problem, that is not boasting, but a statement of fact


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 09:51 AM

What makes you think that Steve Turner or Martin Carthy couldn't do an evening of songs unaccompanied if that was required of them ?


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Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 09:53 AM

I am playing at Bollington club soon , jim, i will pm you in a couple of weeks if i think you would enjoy the club.


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Mudcat time: 17 July 11:46 PM EDT

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