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BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero

Donuel 28 Apr 19 - 01:44 PM
Iains 28 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM
Donuel 28 Apr 19 - 10:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Apr 19 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 06:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM
Iains 28 Apr 19 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Apr 19 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 05:03 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 19 - 04:09 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 19 - 06:40 PM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 19 - 02:10 PM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 01:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Apr 19 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM
Jon Freeman 27 Apr 19 - 12:07 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 19 - 12:05 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 19 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 19 - 11:55 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 19 - 11:11 AM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 11:01 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 19 - 10:47 AM
Thompson 27 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM
Thompson 27 Apr 19 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 19 - 08:36 AM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 19 - 07:16 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 19 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 19 - 07:01 AM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 06:49 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 19 - 04:26 AM
Iains 27 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM
robomatic 26 Apr 19 - 11:39 PM
Thompson 26 Apr 19 - 05:55 PM
Thompson 26 Apr 19 - 05:05 PM
Iains 26 Apr 19 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 11:38 AM
Donuel 26 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 03:51 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 01:44 PM

Quarrelling rangling and being disputatious is all well and good
however we need to be honest about the spinning inventions from a foundation of a grand partisainship and not a voyage of abject intellectualism.

In other words, there is a reason why Iains and I disagree and it is not just an exploration of ideas. Nor should we pretend it is just information.

While Iains is not a Nazi he is a weaponized word fascist relative to my concepts and appreciation of democratization.

He has not been forth coming as to his favored regime but I have my suspicions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM

A shame the mod doing the deleting is so obviously partisan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 10:54 AM

The strategy of causing heat and division is starting arguments like the subject of race.

The argument has evolved from openly inciting hate to the policy of National Security. Now the US Army has been called upon to face mothers and children.

This was the exact progression of 3rd Reich legislation for 10 years by Adolf Hitler. This should be obvious to all - even Iains who delights in sowing seeds of dissent that would make Putin proud.

We all know the last chapter.

Donuel
(the US version of Jim)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 10:39 AM

a dirty filthy stinking hippy's rancid unwashed flared jeans..

.. E.coliloons...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 07:56 AM

Scumbag Trumpite terms like "ecloloon" places you exactly where you are on the IQ scale
ECOLOONS WRIT LARGE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 06:17 AM

Iains seems to have gone toxic kissing the arses of the rigch and powerful
Ireland is undergoing the effects of being deprived of basic right to a home at present
Goldman Sachs is buying up rented property, evicting the tenants and leaving the houses unoccupied until buyers can be found
Shouldn't worry someone who believes it is better to leave unnoccupied property empty rather than house the survivors of a horrific fire, probably caused by shoddy bulding materials and poor inspection standards (some of the Grenfell Tower tenants still remain unhoused)
Ireland has a proud history of resistance (strong enough to bring a powerful Empire to its knees) - the fight on metering was a display of that and opposition to evictions is now on the cards.
The last thing the Irish need is a a boatful extremist absentee landlord to tell them what's best for them
Mind your own business Iain's and try to sort out the mess people like you have landed Britain in
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM

I'd love to have my own water cannon. I wish I'd known they were selling it.

It wasn't on ebay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:39 AM

Nobody should have the right to profit from basic needs Iains

Try telling that to ASDA, Lidl,Aldi, Tesco,etc,etc.

BP, Exxon,Total,etc.etc

British Gas, EDF Energy. E.ON. Npower. ScottishPower. SSE.etc.etc.

Best not talk about the price of houses!

Capitalist society exists as a total contradiction to the nonsense you spout above. And we all know how well communism works, don't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM

A raised eyebrow does not mean that I'm insinuating that you're making things up. For the record THIS end, I know lots of families around here and none of them has three cars in the driveway. Your local examples are exceptions. And, as I said, if water is in short supply you can ban car-washing. If water is plentiful then let people wash their cars (and do the kids' washing). You can educate people in responsible water use but imposing water meters on people who don't want them is too much of a blunt instrument for me in a country that generally has plenty of water, and you can bet your life that water companies wouldn't do it unless there was a profit in sight. Better to target agriculture and big industries that not only use vast amounts of water with near-impunity but also threaten rivers by excessive abstraction or by pumping hot water into them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:14 AM

Thanks Jim - I thought not, but just wanted to be clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 05:03 AM

"Water is a human need, not a right. "
All human needs should be rights - if they are not they need to be fought for as the Irish fought for their water
Nobody should have the right to profit from basic needs Iains (your style of inhumanity betrays you)
The EU is an orgabisation of Capitalists states - for all the problems that that entails, they are the best on offer at the present time so your bringing them up ist totally irrelevant - if anything, it underlines my point
I have no argument with what you say Baccy
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 04:09 AM

There are aspects of our life that should be put out of the reach of those seeking to profit from them - water being one of them

Obviously other views prevail, hence talk of a referendum on future privatisation of a state enterprise. It is also the EU way forward, especially for indebted countries.(Greece being a prime example)
The EU (the epitome of perfection according to many posting here) cares not a fig for your "uman rights" if there is a shekel to be made on the deal.
https://www.epsu.org/article/eu-commission-forces-crisis-hit-countries-privatise-water
In England and Wales, water tariffs and profits increased substantially after privatization in 1989, but investments also increased and water quality in rivers improved. Tariffs increased by 46% in inflation-adjusted terms during the first nine years after privatization. Operating profits have more than doubled (+142%) in the first eight years. On the other hand, privatization increased investments: In the six years after privatization the companies invested £17 billion, compared to £9.3 billion in the six years before privatization. It also brought about compliance with stringent drinking water standards and led to a higher quality of river water.] According to data from OFWAT, the economic regulator of water and sewer companies in England and Wales, from the early 1990s until 2010, network pressure has improved substantially, supply interruptions have become less frequent, the responsiveness to complaints has improved and leakage has been reduced.

The benefits of privatisation in the UK are obvious. namely increased efficiency. metering seems the fairest way to me for charging.

Water is a human need, not a right. If the EU encourages privatisation they obviously do not regard it as a right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM

”There are aspects of our life that should be put out of the reach of those seeking to profit from them - water being one of them”

Couldn’t agree more Jim - this being for the third time. The other two were 28 Apr 19 12:05 PM and 02:10 PM. In case you missed the other twice, here it is again...

”Far more important is the iniquity of the privatisation of water supply. Water should be supplied by publically-owned organisations - that way, any ‘profit’ would go back into society for the benefit of everyone. Rather than into the pockets of a comparatively small number of comparatively wealthy shareholders.”

”And three cars too? Really?”

Steve - we could argue all day about the subject, but I have no intention of wasting time on this. We have our own opinions and they differ, that’s fine, I can live perfectly happily with that.

However, what I cannot tolerate is your insinuation that I’m a liar. I do NOT lie, and your suggestion that I did is beneath contempt. You should be ashamed of yourself.

For the record, and to answer your impertinent question, my closest four neighbour-families, all living in properties similar to mine, have ten children and twelve cars between them. We may inhabit The Backwoods, but we live in the 21st century, and we are far from being paupers.

End of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM

The metering of Irish water was considered a move towards the privatisation of the industry - that is why there is a proposed referendum on the issue
Once that referendum is held, perhaps then can the question of metering be discussed rationally
It is obscene to suggest that the investor take precedence over something as essential as water - that's what happens with privatisation - the interests of the investors always come first
There was a jokey at on Irish television about the privatisation of air - a clerk was explaining to a potential customer how she shouldn't laugh as it takes up too much airand her supply might run out.
There are aspects of our life that should be put out of the reach of those seeking to profit from them - water being one of them
Jiim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 06:40 PM

"I truly fail to see why metering water supply is ‘unconscionable’ - you don’t expect your gas to be supplied for a notional charge based on some airy-fairy ‘value’ placed on your property, so why would you expect water to be supplied on that basis."

Several things. First, a clean and safe water supply is a human right. If water is in short supply you can ban the watering of lawns and the washing of cars. If you have children you must have enough water to keep them and their clothes clean and to feed them. If that means they need more water than you next door, so be it, and, as long as there is a sufficiency of supply, it really doesn't matter. As I said, water is an infinite resource and water has a very low intrinsic monetary value. Gas is a finite and non-renewable resource which must be hard-won from the ground, often in someone else's country, and must be expensively refined and safely transported. Its intrinsic monetary value is high. There is simply no comparison. We must pay for the infrastructure that collects, purifies and delivers water, much of which is actually fairly low-tech, but that's all. How we as a society pay for that infrastructure is a matter for debate. I didn't assert categorically that it should come from rates or taxes, though it strikes me that some graduated method of paying for it according to means would be the fairest way. But if meters are available and you think you can save money by having one, that's great. But they should not be made compulsory. We support families with children via paying for their education and by providing state benefits such as family allowance and free nursery care. I find it odd that anyone should be castigating families who have to use extra water because they have children. And three cars too? Really?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM

The problem is that what you have to pay is decided by what a private firm calculates they need to pay their investors - as well as the cost of maintaining and (in the case of Ireland), the reconstruction of the entire out-of-date system

Irish water is an entirely state owned entity.
Commercial semi-State companies last year paid out dividends of €261.19 million to the State, according to Minister for Finance Paschal Donohue. This brings the total dividends from these companies to €2.4 billion since 2010.
"One of the many arguments used against Irish Water is that it is a “Private Company ” and that it should not be allowed to get information such as PPS numbers or household details .
The fact that Irish Water announces on the bottom of all their web pages that they are a “Private Company Limited by Shares” doesn’t really help ! It is confusing and it is understandable why the public are mistaken.
Most people when they see “Private Company” – think of privatisation , profit making, capitalists , shareholders and fat cats.

Irish Water is not owned by private individuals or corporations.
The truth is, that (for the time being) – Irish Water is a fully state owned company . It is a subsidiary of Ervia (which was formerly known as Bord Gais Eireann) .    Ervia itself is a state owned statutory body.

When a company is registered it can be set up as a Private Limited Company or a Public Limited Company. A public company’s shares can be bought by the public – a private company’s cannot. The only shares in Irish Water are 50% owned by Bord Gais (Ervia) and 50% owned by the state. Bord Gais (Ervia) itself is 97% state owned. (About 3% is owned by employees) .

Irish Water is set up in a very similar way to An Post , Bus Eireann, Bord na Mona , Coiltte, ESB, Ervia and Irish Rail   (to name but a few).
The Irish Water setup is the exact opposite of what most people think of when they hear “private company”   … it is a nationalised, state owned water utility that has been registered as a private company.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 02:10 PM

”The problem is that what you have to pay is decided by what a private firm calculates they need to pay their investors - as well as the cost of maintaining and (in the case of Ireland), the reconstruction of the entire out-of-date system”

Yep, that’s what I said....I quote....

”Far more important is the iniquity of the privatisation of water supply. Water should be supplied by publically-owned organisations - that way, any ‘profit’ would go back into society for the benefit of everyone. Rather than into the pockets of a comparatively small number of comparatively wealthy shareholders.”

The problem isn’t meters, the problem is the privatised water industry. Mind you, and as I said earlier, our water bill reduced significantly when we changed to a metered supply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:39 PM

MY internet searches emphatically state that the first government directive meter installations occurred in 2013. The only exceptions may be group water schemes that supply 6% of the population of Clare. They may or may not be metered. But, the meters under discussion here are those installed by Irish Water, not privately installed meters that may well go back 50years.

If the government start to inspect septic tanks in earnest many householders will find them condemned. Permeability tests on glacial gravels and overconsolidated glacial clays will inevitably be out of spec and require extensive remedial works for the drainage outfields to be in compliance. Many neglect to pump away solids and these building up over time may eventually render the outfields useless.

As I said previously the Irish approach to water supply and disposal is a bit of a mess and changes every 5 minutes. Not the best approach to dealing with critical infrastructure.

The ‘leakage’ issue is a red herring.
I wish it was! I had a house 20 years ago and my meter was on the main road 1/2 mile from the house. Finding the leak, fixing it, and paying the resultant bill was a significant sum. As the two intervening fields my supply pipe ran under had a wheat crop there was only a limited window of opportunity after harvest to be able to sort the issue our before the land was resowed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:30 PM

I've skim read today's posts - too many, too long, copy 'n' paste hell...

All I'll add is my old mum lives alone in a 3 bedroom council house she has lived in for over 50 years..

[we could debate the rights and wrongs of that elsewhere..]

Her water bill is eye wateringly extortionate, based on estimates for a young family's usage..

Water company says yes it's unfair but she has to pay,
unless a meter is fitted.

We need to contact the council...

However, living month by month, emergency by emergency,
we didn't expect mum to still be around.. just happy for every extra day..
..and it's just one more of those chores that gets put off forgotten,
snowed under all the other mounting daily stresses...

This thread unexpectedly brings it to mind again..

Meter - should we...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM

"You only pay for the water you use, recorded through the meter on your premises. "
The problem is that what you have to pay is decided by what a private firm calculates they need to pay their investors - as well as the cost of maintaining and (in the case of Ireland), the reconstruction of the entire out-of-date system
Had the Government decided to lessen the taxes by the amount saved by passing the buck to a private firm, fine - that remained the same, so the metering cost was a straight addition to the domestic budget - a big amount to many households
Anyway - all academic - massive demonstrations made it plain that the the people weren't prepared to take on the additional burden so it was kicked into touch - anybody want to buy an unused water meter ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 12:07 PM

On septic tanks...

Ours has to be emptied two or three time a year and the bill is split 3 ways, I think working out around £70 each. It’s a crazy set up and one I believe the surveyor was a bit nervous about when mum bought the house. These days, I think it's made worse by the fact one of the 3 users as well as his own house, converted what had been a "granny flat" for one aged parent into a holiday flat, usually occupied by couples, possibly with less concern about what goes into.

On the plus side, we wouldn’t be able to rent the bit of the field we do if it wasn’t for the pipe to the septic tank. That and if I remember correctly, the last time we tried to look at figures we are still better off than using mains drainage where it is available in the area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 12:05 PM

Far more important is the iniquity of the privatisation of water supply. Water should be supplied by publically-owned organisations - that way, any ‘profit’ would go back into society for the benefit of everyone. Rather than into the pockets of a comparatively small number of comparatively wealthy shareholders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 12:01 PM

Metering needn’t be linked to profits. It’s reasonable to expect users of water to pay the costs of collection, storage, and delivery of their water, and that could be done through charging for volume used, without including a profit element.

The ‘leakage’ issue is a red herring. You only pay for the water you use, recorded through the meter on your premises.

What is unreasonable is that two of us living in a property, who use water for nothing other than drinking, cooking, and washing our clothes and ourselves, have to pay the same amount for water as the family next door with three children, who water the lawn and flower-beds all summer, wash three cars every weekend, etc., for no other reason than our properties have the same notional ‘Rateable Value’.

In fact, we are metered, and when we got a meter installed our water charge dropped significantly, because we are careful with our use of water. We pay for what we use, not some baseless figure dreamed up in the dark, secretive recesses of the Local Valuation Office. Let those who use the most, pay the most.

I truly fail to see why metering water supply is ‘unconscionable’ - you don’t expect your gas to be supplied for a notional charge based on some airy-fairy ‘value’ placed on your property, so why would you expect water to be supplied on that basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 11:55 AM

"According to the Irish Examiner the first water meter was installed in 2013."
Someone should have told the clowns who installed them all over the West of Ireland - including outside our door in 1999
Don't be so ****** arrogant as to think you can tell people what we know from personal experience Iains - that's what has got you as hated as you have become
The next step is to say I'm making it up
You really are beyond a joke
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

Incidentally, I don't pay for sewerage as I have my own septic tank. My bill is just for water. I think that's fair. Incidentally again, my own sewage system has cost me nothing for over thirty years. And I can't think that I'd be paying for water had I had my own well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 11:11 AM

Sorry, I hadn't finished that! Here's the whole thing.

Charging households for water on a metered basis is unconscionable when a fifth of all water leaks away before it gets near our homes, and some companies are worse than others, which makes metering even less fair. We should all pay for the water supply infrastructure: that could be on the same basis as paying income tax or council tax, blunt instruments though they be. Water isn't like gas or oil which has to be hard won from the ground then expensively refined. It's an infinite resource with a very low intrinsic monetary value. The only conceivable justification for metering is to prevent waste, but then extremely water-wasteful industries (which is most of them), including some aspects of agriculture, get away with very cheap water with little incentive to limit their profligacy (find out how much water it takes to make one car or one pint of beer...), then there's that leakage... Metering homes means that the people who use the least water, householders, are the people who, pro rata, pay most for it. I'm opposed. And I won't have a meter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 11:01 AM

According to the Irish Examiner the first water meter was installed in 2013.
Who to believe? The Irish examiner or a pontificating ex sparky who constantly changes the parameters of the discussion when shown to be in error? Why on earth do you insist denying the obvious? How many times does an obvious fact need pointing out to you before you get it through your skull?

The Irish approach to water charges has been a fiasco since 1978 when Fianna Fáil abolished water charges in the guise of domestic rates, without coming up with an alternative model.

In 1985 Tánaiste Dick Spring introduced a local-service levy, which included a water charge.

1996 Water charges are abolished in December 1996 by then environment minister Brendan Howlin, widely seen as a political move to block anti-tax candidates in a forthcoming election. Since then, the only domestic users who have paid for water are those in group water schemes. For the rest, the water is paid for from general taxes.

December 2009:

In his budget speech, minister for finance Brian Lenihan announces that preparations for water charges are underway and, when introduced, they will be based on consumption above a free allocation.

June 2010:

In a 2010 interview with The Irish Times, then Labour leader Eamon Gilmore rules out water charges on the basis of the cost of installing meters as well as ruling out a property tax.

November 2010:

In the National Recovery Plan, which outlines in detail how the government proposed to make €15 billion of savings by 2014, a decision was taken not to introduce an interim flat rate of residential water tax pending the installation of meters in 1.2 million homes connected to the public water mains supply.

November 2010:

The government publishes the memorandum of understanding on the conditions of the €85 billion EU-IMF bailout which says water charges will be introduced in 2012 or 2013, by which time metering is to have been installed across the State. This is a year earlier than expected. It also says the responsibility for water will be transferred from local authorities to a new water utility.

May 2011:

A spokeswoman for minister for the environment Phil Hogan dismisses claims by the Opposition that the Government has committed to introduce flat-rate water charges.

June 2011:

Mr Hogan confirms a procurement process for the installation of water meters is being entered into with the intention of having the necessary infrastructure in place early in 2012. Metered domestic water charges will then be put in place.

April 2012:

The Government confirms households will be liable for funding arrangements totalling more than €800 million needed to establish a water company, including interest payments on a loan from the National Pension Reserve Fund. Mr Hogan describes it as the most significant decision taken in relation to a State utility since the establishment of the ESB.

The Government also announced the contract to run the company has been awarded to Bord Gáis Éireann, of which Irish Water will become a subsidiary. Irish Water will gradually become responsible for supplying all public water in the State, taking over the role currently performed by the 34 local authorities. Mr Hogan says charges would be introduced in 2014 and Irish Water would have 90-95 per cent of the meters installed by the end of that year.

July 2013:

Irish Water is incorporated as a semi-state company under the Water Services Act 2013.

December 2013:

The Water Service (No.2) Bill 2013 is rushed through all stages in the Dáil over four hours on the 19th amid protest from the Opposition.

January 2014:

Irish Water’s chief executive John Tierney tells the Oireachtas environment committee it has kept the Department of the Environment abreast of its spending costs, and estimates that it would spend €85 million on consultants by 2015.

Mr Hogan’s spokesman says the Minister was unaware of the detailed breakdown of how Irish Water was spending the €180 million it needed to establish itself.

May 2014:

Government reaches agreement to eliminate €50 standing charge, which was seen to erode the benefit of allowances for households with children.

July 2014:

Commission for Energy Regulation reveals details of water charges which indicate that the average cost for a household of two adults and two children will come in at €278. Metered rates are set at €4.88 for 1,000 litres of water for properties requiring both the waste and drinking water services and half that for properties requiring one service.

October 2014:

Controversy erupts as it emerges Irish Water staff will have access to a bonus payment regime - even in cases where their performance is classified as needing improvement. It is later announced that bonus payments for 2013 and 2014 will be suspended.

October 2014:

Commission for Energy Regulation grants one month extension to sign-up period for Irish Water customers with deadline extended until end of November. This follows reports that registration numbers have been underwhelming to date.

October 2014:

Opposition to the charges intensifies as upwards of 50,000 people marched against them in Dublin in one of the largest demonstrations seen in the capital in years. The Green Party calls for a referendum that would ensure water services remain in public ownership.

October 2014:

Tánaiste Joan Burton acknowledges that the timetable for setting up Irish Water had been “too ambitious”. Taoiseach Enda Kenny says the public must have “absolute confidence” in Irish Water if the regime is to work.

November 2014:

Anti-water protestors gather in Jobstown in Dublin where Ms Burton was attending a graduation ceremony. She is trapped in her car by the crowd for more than two hours and a row breaks out between Government figures and Socialist Party TD Paul Murphy as to whether or not it was a peaceful protest.

November 2014:

Minister for Environment Alan Kelly announces a revised water charges package with capped costs and a commitment to legislate to ensure a referendum must take place is water charges are to leave public ownership.

The situation today is unclear. Having installed meters it is likely they will be used and that water will not be paid for out of the general rate, as this penalizes all those with private water supply and waste treatment plants.

No doubt elections will be out of the way before this thorny rose is plucked again. The issue has not gone away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 10:47 AM

Charging households for water on a metered basis is unconscionable when a fifth of all water leaks away before it gets near our homes, and some companies are worse than others, which makes metering even less fair. We should all pay for the water supply infrastructure


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM

Furthermore rates were paid for services - including water - for a long time, then subsumed into taxes. But the intention to bring in water rates was not one that would have shared the costs fairly (as with the property taxes), and included a company making profit out of running the system.

There are things that should never include the profit motive, though they have to be paid for: water, health, education, libraries, roads, housing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 10:15 AM

Metering = good
Profiting from water = bad

The trouble is that we have a Thatcherite government at the moment whose motto is Luach gach aon rud ach fiúntas rud ar bith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 08:36 AM

"Sounds like the perfect, irrefutable justification for metering!"
Water was always regarded as a utility not to be profited from when I lived in Britain
The Irish still regard it as such, and they have my support
One of the problems in rural Ireland particularly is the state and age of the water installations
Before anybody is allowed to profit from water, the system need some serious modernisation

And the ranter rants on, totally ignoring the FACT that the plan to meter Irish water started sometime in the 1990s - that's why residents had had meters in front of their houses for a quarter of a century when the scheme was finally abandoned
The saga of charging for water began in 1985 when Tánaiste Dick Spring introduced a local-service levy, which included a water charge.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

The overwhelming protests (which, despite the blusterings of our resident moron) had lasted since the late 1990s, finally won the day and the scheme has now been abandoned totally

The Oireachtas has approved the committee’s report. Its recommendations include:

    Domestic water charging under the Water Services Act 2014 should be discontinued and replaced by alternative arrangements, as outlined in the committee’s report
    Domestic water use should be funded through general taxation
    The Water Services Act 2007 should be amended to ensure that wastage, excess use or wilful abuse of water can be addressed, using incentives, levies and other measures proposed in the report
    Conservation of water resources should be embedded as a principle of water policy and a cross-departmental strategy should be developed to increase water conservation
    The principles of equity of treatment and equivalent financial support should be applied equally between households using public water and wastewater systems and households using other systems
    The most effective combination of metering (including the existing stock of domestic meters) should be used in order to promote conservation through leak reduction
    All new domestic buildings should incorporate water conservation fittings
    The role of the Public Water Forum should be further developed and the legislation establishing it should be reviewed
   An overall review of the strategy based on this report should take place after 5 years
    A referendum should be held on the issue of water services continuing in public ownership


60+% of mains supplied properties have water meters. They are still being installed.

The issue of charging as opposed to funding out of general taxation has not gone away.

Those with private warterwells and private treatment works in effect subsidise those with mains services.
This is hardly fair. To even the playing field perhaps private well drilling, septic tank installation and all associated costs should also be funded by general taxation.

Facts, facts and more facts and still the resident troublemaker argues!

https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/letters/363458/irish-water-installing-new-digital-water-metres-across-portlaoise.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-accused-of-delaying-potential-referendum-on-public-ownership-of-wa


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 07:16 AM

”Schemes were adopted and being pushed through based, not on needs or consumption, but on area average property values so a small cottage lived in by a single bachelor, or a housholder relying on a constant supply of water to was nappies and kids clothes would be paying the same as the occupants of a trophy house owned by a successful businessman - utter nonsense in a rural country”

Sounds like the perfect, irrefutable justification for metering!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 07:08 AM

”Schemes were adopted and being pushed through based, not on needs or consumption, but on area average property values so a small cottage lived in by a single bachelor, or a housholder relying on a constant supply of water to was nappies and kids clothes would be paying the same as the occupants of a trophy house owned by a successful businessman - utter nonsense in a rural country”

Sounds like the perfect, irrefutable justification for metering!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 07:01 AM

"Jim, could you explain to me what is wrong with charging consumers of water for the collection and distribution of same on the basis of the volume they consume? "
Because water has always been considered a right paid for from taxes, not a source of profit, as it was set to become
Schemes were adopted and being pushed through based, not on needs or consumption, but on area average property values so a small cottage lived in by a single bachelor, or a housholder relying on a constant supply of water to was nappies and kids clothes would be paying the same as the occupants of a trophy house owned by a successful businessman - utter nonsense in a rural country
The overwhelming protests (which, despite the blusterings of our resident moron) had lasted since the late 1990s, finally won the day and the scheme has now been abandoned totally
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 06:49 AM

The current attempts at metering water had swf to do with an "anaemic celtic tiger" - it was the end of a quarter century century of social protest.

Rubbish! Can you not read?From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

IT was a condition of the bailout by the IMF and EU of which the UK provided €3.84 billion of the €85 billion European Union bailout package. The charges were a way of guaranteeing funds for repayment from a bankrupt.
Try studying a little history!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM

Jim, could you explain to me what is wrong with charging consumers of water for the collection and distribution of same on the basis of the volume they consume? It seems far fairer than the system of charging according to a notional RV on the property you live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM

"ignorant ecoloon?"
It is totally beyond your capability to offer a half decent argument without personal abuse, isn't it ?
When we had this house built 20 years ago te council fitter a water meter to our supply in preparation for a water-metering scheme then underway - our neighbours had already had similar meters fitted five years earlier
The current attempts at metering water had swf to do with an "anaemic celtic tiger" - it was the end of a quarter century century of social protest.
If you don't know this, go buy a book - maybe the shop will have one on how to be an adult with dignity
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

"obtain revenue from the anaemic celtic tiger."
Crap
It was a money-making scheme full stop


From the Independant IE
How the household and water charges will work

June 2 2011 5:00 AM

•WHAT is the household charge being introduction on January 1 next?

The Government committed last November in the EU/IMF bailout to introducing a property tax in 2012 and water charges by 2013.


Who is talking crap? The newspaper or an ignorant ecoloon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 04:26 AM

"obtain revenue from the anaemic celtic tiger."
Crap
It was a money-making scheme full stop
The first attempts to meter every home was over twenty years ago when the 'Tiger' was roaring its loudest (before the corrupt bankers silenced it)
Capitalism works on the basis that they hang a price tag on anything they can get away with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM

Mmm. The trouble with the water metering (water meters were installed, but an effort to have people pay a company was defeated, so far) is that the plan for payment was deeply unfair. But in truth there's nothing wrong with the concept that people should pay for water they use.
water charges
The issue has not gone away. Like the household charge and registration of septic tanks it was a moneymaking exercise to obtain revenue from the anaemic celtic tiger.
Generating a clean water supply to household taps requires treatment works, and infrastructure with ongoing monitoring and repair. The cost has to be paid it would seem highly sensible that the customer pays.
If you have a borehole it requires a pump, power supply and possibly filtering.This all comes at a cost to the householder.
Food does not come without cost, or fuel,or electricity so why the expectation that treated water be free? A variable tariff on such things is a good way of reducing abuse of the system and therefore commendable for being very green.
Water only comes out of the sky for free, getting it out of a tap costs


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:39 PM

"I have forgotten more about mind control than most people ever learn."

Garsh, uh,,, how do you know that?

Leader: "What do we want?"
Crowd: "Time travel!"
Leader: "When do we want it?"
Crowd: "It's irrelevant!"

And back to the subject at hand: I've posted this before but it hasn't got 'old' yet:The Newsroom


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:55 PM

I see Banksy has a new mural.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:05 PM

Mmm. The trouble with the water metering (water meters were installed, but an effort to have people pay a company was defeated, so far) is that the plan for payment was deeply unfair. But in truth there's nothing wrong with the concept that people should pay for water they use.

In Dublin, for instance, lead poisoning at a low level is very worrying - old lead pipes leading from the mains to houses have never been replaced. And the water system has been allowed to become what is ruefully referred to as a "sprinkler" because money has never been put into mending the mains.

The latest plan is to diver water from the Shannon - good God - to feed Dublin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:55 PM

I am surprised that a person always harping on about the destruction of industrial Britain should quote a poem bemoaning the growth of industrial estates.

"The British town of Slough abruptly became the home of 850 new factories just before World War II. The sudden appearance of this "Trading Estate", which was widely reproduced throughout Britain, prompted the poem. Seeing the new appearance of the town, Betjeman was struck by the "menace of things to come". The poem is not about Slough specifically, but about the desecration caused by industrialization and modernity in general, with the transformation of Slough being the epitome of these evils.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:38 AM

Come friendly bombs and fall on Stroud
The pubs are crap and and the music loud :->
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM

Loud and proud Stroud sounds like a place I'd like to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM

Poll tax...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM

Then there was people power getting shot of the Marcos regime in the Philippines...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ecoloon or Green Hero
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:51 AM

"People who complain about protesters should read some history."
They should indeed
The Anti apartheid movement and boycott movement helped overturn that regime - I'm proud to remember
The privatised water industry in Ireland has been defeated twice over its attempts to instal water meters
Protest is a powerful weapon

"AI Bot"
Intelligence - surely not ?
Jim Carroll


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