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Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim

Gavin Atkin 15 Apr 19 - 05:00 PM
GUEST 16 Apr 19 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 16 Apr 19 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Will Fly 16 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM
GUEST 16 Apr 19 - 04:55 AM
Tattie Bogle 16 Apr 19 - 06:55 PM
meself 16 Apr 19 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,Guest 16 Apr 19 - 09:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Apr 19 - 12:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Apr 19 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 17 Apr 19 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,Guest 17 Apr 19 - 10:07 AM
Gavin Atkin 17 Apr 19 - 01:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Apr 19 - 01:50 PM
Gavin Atkin 17 Apr 19 - 02:55 PM
Gavin Atkin 17 Apr 19 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 17 Apr 19 - 11:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Apr 19 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Apr 19 - 12:04 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 19 - 12:15 AM
Tattie Bogle 18 Apr 19 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Guest 19 Apr 19 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 20 Apr 19 - 07:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Apr 19 - 08:15 PM
Gavin Atkin 22 Apr 19 - 07:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,kenny 22 Apr 19 - 11:42 AM
GUEST 22 Apr 19 - 12:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Kenny 22 Apr 19 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,kenny 22 May 19 - 07:11 AM
GUEST 22 May 19 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Rossey 23 May 19 - 06:20 PM
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Subject: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Gavin Atkin
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:00 PM

Julie and I this evening recorded As I Roved Out, which I believe to be a traditional song, and put it on YouTube. As sometimes happens, someone immediately claimed they owned copyright. Is there a way in which the can own this? Should I raise an objection to this claim? Can I feel confident in doing so please?

I've tried to understand Google's instructions, but they are opaque where you're dealing with a traditional song that someone may claim. I would say it's pretty clear that our performance and arrangement is all our own.

As I Roved Out

If anyone can help with this issue, I would be grateful.

Gavin


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:01 AM

It's not a problem, Gavin. The "copyright" bit is just the YouTube bots making machine decisions based on a tune or a title. I sometimes get such a message on my smartphone - to my YouTube Google email address - and reply immediately saying that the tune is a traditional tune dating from xxxx, or dating from xxx years ago. The outcome is usually another message saying that the copyright claim has been revoked.

If it happens that the song/tune IS in copyright, the worst that happens is that YouTube feels free to pop an advert on to the beginning of your video. But, as I say, I've generally refuted such claims where I have good evidence that it's nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:03 AM

Sorry for the anonymous post ab ove - GUEST was me, without me cookie.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Will Fly
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM

Posts above from Will Fly - for some reasons, my login reset process keeps getting overturned!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:55 AM

Thanks Will! I was wondering who the kind reply came from. I had a feeling it was someone I know!

Gavin


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:55 PM

I once posted a video of a particular event, used a well-known song as soundtrack to it: got a copyright warning. So then there was a list of sings that YouTube said you COULD use: changed the soundtrack to one of them, and still got a warning!! Ignored it, left the second soundtrack as it was: never heard any more!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:35 PM

I once had a performance of a J. Scott Skinner piece pulled by youtube over copyright. I sent them a message explaining, briefly, the provenance of the tune (which some 'Celtic' band had copyrighted/registered, apparently). The video was put back up in short order.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:35 PM

Although not applicable in this case - If a work is copyright, each holder can object and fill in a form to have the video taken down. In the case of recordings, sometimes youtube automatches, and you will often be allowed to keep a recording up as long as you allow adverts to be put on.   Times are changing and a new copyright directive has recently been passed by European parliament, which may affect what music can be put on social media in a European context. There are all these different rights. The visual rights if you use other people's videos and photos without permission, the artist and record company rights for recordings - and the songwriter's rights which may also be administered via copyright societies. Therefore any of those parties can object and ask for unlicensed material to be taken down. This can also apply to video performances of people's songs if they notice and object to the use made of it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 12:01 AM

This is a mater of intense controversy at the moment.. There is an epedemic of copyright strikes for two main reasons..

a] mega corporations flexing their legal muscle to extort ad revenue out of music channels..

b] criminals making false claims because youtube makes it so easy for them to get away with it..

The reaction from music youtubers is anger, frustration, and anxiety about no longer being able to teach other musicians, loss of their channels, and having revenue unfairly taken away..

Significant players are fighting back as best they can to publicize this attack on music channels...

eg..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwG0bQ7WC3c&list=PLbttUTp0Qg303Fg8SxyZscQtiUGj2XL7C&index=24&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjxYTl2d7xg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYwgqlDolA&list=PLbttUTp0Qg303Fg8SxyZscQtiUGj2XL7C&index=40&t=279s

read comments, and follow links to related videos..

this one is very sweary if anyone is easily offended..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCK-jm8Nwyc&list=PLbttUTp0Qg337v9gbEoGbFcK832bJGZD6&index=6&t=0s

All this is just the tip of the iceberg...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 12:02 AM

sorry about the mess, something has gone wrong with my line formatting...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 01:13 AM

Will Fly: YouTube copypright claim relinquished!

Me in other thread: "All of the major rights management companies use botnets. Orchard Enterprises is B.A.C.O.N.; Kobalt is K.O.R.E..

KORE tracks 600,000+ titles. Odds are pretty good you are the only human in the loop at the beginning.
"

These are just two of the web's so-called censorship engines. With that many titles the fal$e po$itive$ add up pretty quick.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 10:07 AM

i re-iterate songwriters, publishers, record companies, owners of video works (photographers, and visual media owners), have the right to be paid and protect copyright - and can order take downs. Apart from artistic mash ups etc.   Then there is the auto-bot claims of matches - which can be defective. In Europe a directive has just been passed which will make these social media platforms responsible for breaches of copyright (called Article 13). No-one is yet sure how it'll work and when it will be fully implemented. There are synch agencies who are a nightmare to deal with and who supply 'Youtube' and their streaming services with millions of tracks, supposedly on an official basis.   Some of these companies have been assigned tracks by record companies, but its hit and miss as to which hold correct matches and whether the claim was valid in the first place and whether the synch agencies are breaching some writers rights in favour of the supplier of the track who sometimes may be paying nothing to the artist or writer due to incorrect data. Their software can create false sound matches, and the information they hold isn't always correct.   Youtube favour these monster paymasters, synch agencies like Orchard, Believe, In-Grooves - and often err on their side.   Any human can fill in a form with a take down as well, if their rights are breached, but the large agencies hold a lot of power and sway with 'youtube'. The three strikes system, and you lose your creator's account is very unfair in its weighting. The synch agencies get away with errors galore and sometimes theft - and they are protected by 'youtube'.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Gavin Atkin
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 01:36 PM

I very much doubt any of my YouTubes have significant financial potential for anyone - I'm operating in a very area niche in which I'm a pretty insignificant operator.

The principle that folks should not be permitted to claim rights they don't deserve over traditional songs is far from trivial - but on the other side of the argument I really /do not/ want to fall out with YouTube, because it's the website that hosts my dozens of instructional tunes videos. They're small beer as far as the outside world is concerned, but in the narrow world of folks playing English style melodeon and other instruments, they do get significant use. And of course they're essential for my regular workshop attendees.

Hmmm...

Gavin


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 01:50 PM

Many youtubers are investigating alternative video sites as a back up if the '3 strike and out' worst happens.
Unfortunately too many far right video bloggers have found these sites already...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Gavin Atkin
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 02:55 PM

Yukkkk...

How depressing.

I guess the new laws could mean pulling down all sorts of material if we can't prove it's ours to publish. If I made a recording 10, 15 or 25 years ago, I'm pretty confident I will no longer have the original files, for example, and may not have my original photos, or be able to find emails from anyone giving permission to use a shot of theirs...

I do understand people must be get paid their dues, which they really must, but this could go a bit wrong depending how it's done.

Gavin


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Gavin Atkin
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 02:55 PM

... And I'll be far from alone.

Gavin


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:20 PM

Believe it or don't, it's worse for images. The UK seems to be leaning towards a total ban on all info until it's vetted by their big brothers in industry.

State AI approved internet porn? Strange days.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:56 PM

The legislated restrictions on UK porn viewing will be implemented in July...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/17/online-pornography-age-checks-to-be-mandatory-in-uk-from-15-july


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 12:04 AM

Lordy! Truth is now 'officially' stranger than comedy. They're serious?

And I was going to joke about traumatized bots needing eye bleach!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 12:15 AM

The brexiteers are making sure no foreigners in their right mind
would ever willingly want to emigrate here...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:28 AM

@ meself: older than Scott Skinner, I put up video of a performance of "The Jolly Beggars" from Robert Burns, just an unpaid amateur performance in a folk club. Got a warning, but told them Rabbie had been deid for over 200 years, and all the performers were personal friends who had given their consent to being filmed and the video being posted. Objection withdrawn


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 11:17 AM

Someone posted a track on a FB group, a Daniel O' Donnell recorded song. It just highlighted to me, that there are huge problems ahead in the business of crediting and controlling song rights.    The 'youtube' poster is wrong. The song was not written by Daniel O' Donnell but one H.P. Donoghue.. and published by Valentine Music. But then the official auto-recognition software compounds the error and has misidentified and miscredited the whole song as per a different song written by Johnny Russell and Voni Morrison. Who knows if the real writer is getting his pennies? But it shows that auto claims can be very flawed.   

Cheveyo Hototo
Published on 19 Aug 2011
"Far Far From Home" is the title of a song written and recorded by an Irish singer Daniel O'Donnell and taken from the Album "Irish Collection".
Category
Music
Music in this video
Learn more
Listen ad-free with YouTube Premium
Song
Far Far From Home
Artist
Daniel O'Donnell
Album
From The Heart / Thoughts Of Home
Writers
Voni Morrison, Johnny Russell
Licensed to YouTube by
Entertainment One U.S., LP (on behalf of Dptv Media); CMRRA, Warner Chappell, Sony ATV Publishing, Exploration Group (Music Publishing), and 4 music rights societies   

It doesn't say much for the current quality of auto identification of works through software recognition.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM

Headline: "Article 13 claims first victim: Rick Astley BANNED!"

Aaaaaand half the internet just got Rick-Rolled.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 07:34 PM

PUNKY

TAKE THE HIT


Sincerely,
Gargoyle

game over


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 08:15 PM

Garg - is the intended meaning hidden within the large expanse of blank white space...???

It's too many decades since I was last required to analyse modern poetry...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: Gavin Atkin
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 07:17 AM

So it's a mixed outlook and mixed experiences...

Gavin


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM

geous claim against a youtuber..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-ROZ1Hb8Ic


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM

a new outrageous claim against a youtuber....


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 11:42 AM

I've just filed a "dispute" against some unknown entity, "The Orchard Music", who claimed copyright to 2 traditional Irish tunes I posted from a recording made some years ago. I'll let you know what happens.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 12:14 PM

Hm, not that unknown, once you go looking: The Orchard co.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM

"The company is a wholly owed subsidiary of Sony Music Entertainment, "

interesting.. it's sony trying to bleed dry the youtuber I just posted today...

It's blatant racketeering...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Kenny
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 03:12 PM

So how the f##k do Sony "own" the copyright on 2 traditional Irish slides ?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 May 19 - 07:11 AM

The copyright claim has been removed from the video I posted. No communication, no explanation, certainly no apology for a totally spurious claim, and presumably no sanction against whoever made it.
Nevertheless, it does show that these claims can be challenged.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 19 - 07:29 AM

"So how the f##k do Sony "own" the copyright on 2 traditional Irish slides ? "

Explained in the Wikipedia link above. Match generated by a bot and it is down to you to prove otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Advice please - Youtube copyright claim
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 23 May 19 - 06:20 PM

Was it a recording or your own version? If it's an artist's recording then it sometimes involves the rights to circulate the recording. Licenses are required (synch rights), and they introduced automatching. The copyright on the song is a separate right to the recording itself. These distribution agencies like the Orchard claim to own the recording rights to millions of songs. but often create mismatches. Much of the time they just put an autoclaim on and allow the video to stand if they can put adverts over it, when they feel like. Then there is the separate rights on the song or tune itself.. Anybody can issue a take down on youtube if they own any part, be it the song, tune, publishing, recording or visual image. For the most part the big agencies just want adverts put over your video. But their matching software is deeply flawed and they often miscredit songs and misidentify them.


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