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BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019

Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM
Jeri 15 Apr 19 - 02:02 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Apr 19 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 19 - 02:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Apr 19 - 03:27 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 03:45 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 03:51 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Apr 19 - 04:33 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Apr 19 - 07:20 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 07:25 PM
bobad 15 Apr 19 - 07:35 PM
Stanron 15 Apr 19 - 07:50 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 07:53 PM
Joe Offer 15 Apr 19 - 09:45 PM
Jeri 15 Apr 19 - 09:54 PM
Mossback 15 Apr 19 - 10:02 PM
robomatic 15 Apr 19 - 10:03 PM
Joe Offer 15 Apr 19 - 10:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 11:01 PM
robomatic 16 Apr 19 - 01:44 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 19 - 03:00 AM
Mr Red 16 Apr 19 - 03:32 AM
Jim McLean 16 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 04:56 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 19 - 05:05 AM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Apr 19 - 06:16 AM
Jos 16 Apr 19 - 06:34 AM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM
Andy7 16 Apr 19 - 08:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Apr 19 - 08:40 AM
bobad 16 Apr 19 - 08:48 AM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 08:54 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM
Mrrzy 16 Apr 19 - 09:57 AM
Jack Campin 16 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Apr 19 - 12:09 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 12:31 PM
Jack Campin 16 Apr 19 - 01:30 PM
Joe Offer 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM
keberoxu 16 Apr 19 - 01:52 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 02:12 PM
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Subject: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM

Its hard to say who showed up first, the firemen or the lawyers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM

The steeple has collapsed after the flames erupted following a work project.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:02 PM

Livestream


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:03 PM

There’s a hunch it was an inside job!

I’ll get me coat.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:58 PM

"
Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:03 PM

There’s a hunch it was an inside job!"
Damn - beat me to it

A story
A couple of tourists in Paris were taken to the bell-tower of Notre Dame and, as the guide was giving the spiel, a hunch-backed man runs through the door. rushes over to the giant bell and head-buts it.
The bell slowly swings on it's pivot;he head-buts it again, and again, and again..., till, with one mighty swing, the bell swings back and hits him , knocking him over the parapet, to his death below.
"Who the hell was that ?" enquirers one of the tourists.
""Dunno", came the reply, "but his face rings a bell"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM

Just shows how much god cares about all these big old buildings in tribute to him/her...

mysterious ways or what...!!!???

Rain...???


Prime piece of city centre development land that though...

Just saying.. our town had a spate of mystery fires in much loved old amenity buildings
that were protected by complex planning orders...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM

I haven't felt a loss as great as this since the collapse of Collosus of Rhodes. All the blood sweat and tears of the artists and art are gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:27 PM

Probably a very sheepish roofer/scaffolder quickly binning his ciggies and lighter,
and keeping his head low as far from the scene as possible...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM

Good News! The gift shop was saved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:45 PM

"Gothic monument still in flames. . . " someone's insurance policy is going to take a huge hit.

Doesn't it always end up being someone leaving a heat-generating tool plugged in or bad wiring?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:51 PM

Jeri's link is excellent - CBS via YouTube. And they just pointed out that this is burning down during Holy/Easter Week. It seems this is something that can be played up and made into propaganda. Watch out for the Russian bots proclaiming plots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM

800 year old timbres were always at risk. The structure was declared structurally unsound for 200 years yet the tourism has never been more robust. There is already talk of rebuilding which is impossible when it comes to such an icon of history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:59 PM

Stilly that rhyme sounds like mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:33 PM

THere was a BBC news item a few weeks ago
with a Parisian official moaning about how expensive it is to preserve from falling apart...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:20 PM

I’ve just recently read a similar article on the Houses of Parliament, about how structurally decrepit they’re becoming from age. This was right after the Commons chamber got flooded out by a breakdown in their archaic pipe system.

WHY do they let things get into such a bad state of repair? Moaning about it isn’t the same as doing something to fix it. And they must be aware of the dangers it poses. How symbolic of the times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:25 PM

4 days ago Paris watched in broad daylight while 16 bronze statues were air lifted by helicopter from Notre Dame to be renovated.

The funny thing is I had an idea for a novel about a statue Heist called L'Heist so I began googling info when I found out about the statue removals. You would expect the Paris sewers as the extracton route but it would be a simple bakery truck. The real mystery would be revealed about who started the fire in the oak spire and why.
Not far beneath the crypt under Notre Dame is a giant hollow that was ready to become sink hole so time was short for L'Heist of a statue and relics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:35 PM

There seems to be a pattern of Catholic churches being desecrated and/or set ablaze in France lately: Newsweek


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:50 PM

Macron has pledged a 'public fund' to repair the Cathedral. Good for him. This in itself might be enough for him to defeat the yellow vests. However, Notre Dame was a Catholic Cathedral. How much will the Catholic Church contribute to the restoration? Will they just sit back and let the poor of the world cough up for the restoration? My guess is that they will contribute as little as possible. It might be their church and their religion but I suspect that their money means more to them. I'll be happy to be proved wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:53 PM

Blowback for sex abuse or part of the Steve Bannon plot. Which is it Bobad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 09:45 PM

Punkfolkrocker says: Just shows how much god cares about all these big old buildings in tribute to him/her...

I think God has a relationship to Beauty and Art that we can't comprehend. But the massive buildings are more human self-expression and self-identity. Massive churches have far more to do with human values, than with divine. Still, it's a beautiful church and I've spent many good hours gazing at its beauty from all angles. I got inside in 1973, and it was a zoo. Didn't seem much like a church inside. It seemed like the primary focus inside was the gift shop. Mass was going on when I was there in 2008, so I wandered around outside until it was over. And when Mass was over, they said the church was closed. Can't say I waited in vain, because I enjoyed my time waiting (and had a very memorable Grand Marnier crepe)...but it was kind of a dirty deal to make us wait and then not let us in.

Stanron says the Catholic Church should pay for the repairs, but that makes me wonder who owns the cathedral. I think that churches in France have been property of the State since the Revolution, and that the Church uses the properties by concession of the State. Whatever the case, the Church gets little value out of big old churches, but they are of great touristic value. Massive, impressive church buildings send a message a church with a "preferential option for the poor" no longer wants to send.

Regarding ownership of French churches, Wikipedia says....it's complicated.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 09:54 PM

Notre Dame has been destroyed - let's fight about something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 10:02 PM

It seems this is something that can be played up and made into propaganda. Watch out for the Russian bots proclaiming plots.

Rather looks like bobad is a Russian bot then, dunnit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 10:03 PM

I passed through Frankfurt, Germany in the 1980s. The German government was underwriting large scale rebuilding from scratch of many stone edifices lost during the War in the city center. I was impressed that there were enough stone masons available for the immense effort, but obviously however few or many there were, they put the time and wherewithal into it to get it done. The overall work began in the 50s and continued past 2000. I believe for most of these structures there was nothing like the volume of pure stone of Notre Dame, plus nothing near as ancient.

It will be interesting to wait for the facts about the Notre Dame's fire's origin. Unfortunately renovation was not a choice. Time, gravity, pollution, wind and particulates were having long term effects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 10:51 PM

It's an interesting opportunity for reassessment. Massive cathedrals and other signs of power, are not what faith ought to be about. To my mind, faith ought to be about compassion, not power. But on the other hand, those cathedrals are priceless works of art and symbols of the identity of peoples. I think these beautiful edifices ought to be preserved and used, but I don't know how. To my mind, this world will be lessened if Notre Dame Cathedral is not rebuilt. But to me, Notre Dame is an amazing work of art, not an expression of my faith. And I'm saying as a Catholic, that this massive cathedral is no longer a valid expression of my faith. If it is preserved, it should be preserved for its artistic value, not for its religious value. I reject the religion that it once expressed, while I still see it priceless as a work of art. Same with Sacre Coeur, and same with Mont St. Michel. These are gorgeous buildings and I am so glad I had the opportunity to visit them, but they are not an expression of my religious faith. I love to visit palaces, too, but I am not a monarchist.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:01 PM

When Buckingham Palace burned a lot of damage was done to a portion of the building, and Queen Elizabeth paid to have it restored. I think I read that that portion of the building is pretty much a museum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:44 AM

Joe:

Well put. I have to say that the Cathedrals I've visited, Notre Dame included, have made quite an impression on me beyond how far an "Edifice Complex" can take folks. They are a tribute to human technical capability combined with artistic inspiration. Those folks didn't have even place holding numerals. It was all digital by which I mean fingers and hands.

I don't remember specifically which English Cathedral I was in, possibly in the Cambridge area, but the stonework overhead was beautiful enough to bring tears. I think it was fan vaulting that impressed me most.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:00 AM

i think it is more important that people are not killed. yes it is a pity but buildings can be rebuilt in exactly the same style, .paintings cannot be replaced.JOE HAS MADE SOME VALID POINTS IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:32 AM

I think that churches in France have been property of the State since the Revolution

Very much so, as I was told, the revolution based their new currency on the value of sequestrated churches. Instead of gold.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM

Stilly River Sage "Queen Elizabeth paid to have it (Buckingham Palace) restored". Who gave her the money?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:56 AM

The fire is out. The damage is heartbreaking, but the beautiful lady of Paris still stands, and many of her treasures are saved. The rose windows have held, even when illuminated all night by terrifying flames.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/update-notre-dames-structure-and-artworks-saved-french-billionaire-pledges-200m-for-restoration-918004.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:05 AM

The queen dos not pay taxes she can afford to pay to restore her palace herself


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM

The statue of Mary & child was a beautiful gothic work. When the debate over statue removal in the US was hot and heavy I did not know I could feel remorse over a statue.

The green smoke came from 350 tons of lead burning. The orange smoke was oak. The pink and red stained glass was all made by alloys of gold.

It will take a long time to realize what was lost beyond material.
The Library of Alexandria comes to mind in that we still do not know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:16 AM

The Sandman: The queen dos not pay taxes she can afford to pay to restore her palace herself
Totally untrue. See the page on Royal Finances (link on the left ('Taxation')

Quoted in part here: The Queen pays tax.

In 1992, The Queen volunteered to pay income tax and capital gains tax, and since 1993 her personal income has been taxable as for any other taxpayer.

The Queen has always been subject to Value Added Tax and pays local rates on a voluntary basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jos
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:34 AM

I believe the queen began paying taxes following the fire at Windsor Castle, in comparison with which the fire at Buckingham Palace ten years later was a fairly minor affair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM

The grand organ has been saved!


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:33 AM

I once had a conversation with someone from South America, about whether it was right for the RC Church to maintain massive churches at great expense, while so many people lived in such severe poverty.

She said, if the church buildings and land were all sold, and the money shared out among all the poor people, they'd only get a tiny amount each. But with the church there at the heart of the community, everyone, however poor, has the chance to spend many, many hours of their lives in a beautiful, peaceful and holy place.

I'm not sure that I'm convinced by her argument. But it's an interesting alternative viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:40 AM

My brother in law is a Welsh chapel minister,
I think he'd dispute the necessity of such opulent over extravagance..

They're all worshipping the same deity..

.. and if god can't even be arsed to at least make it rain when a cathedral catches fire...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:48 AM

A couple of French billionaires have pledged 300 million euros to rebuild the cathedral. Luxury goods magnate Bernard Arnault said he would donate 200 million euros the morning after retail mogul François-Henri Pinault pledged 100 million euros.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:54 AM

As propoganda or advertising goes, Notre Dame was a truely magnificent Antechamber to the grand concept of heaven.
To the secular it was the Disneyland of religion.
To the religious it was a sneek peek of their reward.
To the clergy it was a cash cow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM

To lovers of beauty, history, and tradition, it was - and is - an irreplaceable jewel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:57 AM

So, so sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

The church-desecration crap seems to have been manufactured by a German fascist "news" site.

My guess would have been a battery explosion in a cordless power tool, but it seems people now see a worker's cigarette as the likely start.

The tobacco industry has enough funds to rebuild the place several times over, and they can hardly claim they didn't know the addiction they created leads to consequences like this. Sue the fuckers out of existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:09 PM

First thing I did yesterday before posting here
was check Paris rules on smoking in the work place...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM

There will be enough miracles of salvation from the fire and the strength of the French people to rebuild. The great stained glass windows are in good shape. Renewal sounds better than renovation.
No it will never be the same but what ever is?

It is still half there.
The glass is half full.
Its enough, to rebuild.
The grand organ lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:31 PM

bobad's link bears repeating
https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800?fbclid=IwAR0kuVeygH


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:30 PM

The Newsweek article includes totally baseless accusations against unnamed "anarchists" and "feminists" from an Austrian society independent of the Church and which has no access to any more facts about what actually happened than a typical Twitterer can pull out of his arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM

There's a very sweet, very religious, very anti-abortion Vietnamese woman in our parish who is very upset today about the burning of Notre Dame Cathedral. For her, the cathedral is very much a symbol of her faith. I love architecture, and I love the cathedral as a work of architecture, but the building gives me no religious inspiration whatsoever. It's completely out of line with my faith, which has no place for awe and power and majesty and authority. I tend for find God in the "still, small voice,", and not in the wind or the earthquake or the fire.

But still, I don't want to see churches demolished or sold or abandoned. They have great meaning for many people, including little people like my Vietnamese friend. And they are wonderful works of architecture that give a taste of artistry to otherwise-bleak cities all over the world.

But I do wonder what to do with these beautiful monstrosities.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM

There was, perhaps still is, a movement inspired by the human need
for special tranquil spaces for inner reflection and conemplation..
Churches for non religious-believers...

Yes there is definitely something very essential for our minds to be found in 'sacred' buildings..

I love huge reverbrative high ceiling structures, and pipe organs...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:52 PM

Thank you, Joe Offer,
for putting Cathedral in the thread title.

The first time I saw the earlier cathedral-free thread title,
I thought of the state of Indiana,
and people like Doctor Tom Dooley ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 02:12 PM

You thought of the fighting Irish?

Not being a fan of sports or its trivia I did not conceive of such a thing.
Joe is a challenging editor but behind the scenes he is great.
    We make subtle changes to thread titles for clarity, so titles are understandable by all. No offense is intended.
    -Joe Offer-


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