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BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine

Raggytash 03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM
Raggytash 03 Mar 19 - 09:11 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM
Raggytash 03 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM
DMcG 03 Mar 19 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM
Raggytash 03 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 19 - 07:13 PM
mg 03 Mar 19 - 09:36 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 19 - 10:27 AM
Iains 04 Mar 19 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 19 - 02:59 PM
ollaimh 06 Mar 19 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 03:33 AM
KarenH 06 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM
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KarenH 06 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM
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KarenH 07 Mar 19 - 04:16 AM
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Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM
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KarenH 07 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 07:40 AM
Raggytash 07 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM
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Iains 07 Mar 19 - 09:50 AM
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robomatic 14 Mar 19 - 09:08 PM
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Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM
KarenH 15 Mar 19 - 05:56 AM
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Iains 15 Mar 19 - 07:05 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM
robomatic 15 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM
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Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 04:18 AM
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KarenH 16 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM
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Jim Carroll 16 Mar 19 - 05:44 AM
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KarenH 16 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM
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Iains 16 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM
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KarenH 20 Mar 19 - 08:41 AM
bobad 20 Mar 19 - 08:49 AM
Iains 20 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Mar 19 - 09:17 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM
robomatic 20 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM
KarenH 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM
Bonzo3legs 20 Mar 19 - 12:34 PM
Bonzo3legs 20 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM
robomatic 20 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM
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Iains 22 Mar 19 - 03:10 AM
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Iains 22 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM
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KarenH 23 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM
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Jim Carroll 23 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM
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Subject: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

These subjects have been long discussed on this forum and once again their appearance in one or two threads is making it possible for some people to sidestep the issues discussed therein.

So I've created a nice clear thread here for those of you who wish to discuss these matters further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM

Don't be silly again Raggy - Ireland is as much a part of Brexit as is immigration
I've said what I have to say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM

No point is discussing serious matters with the resident blockhead!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:11 AM

Agreed Jim, but by taking the bait you are allowing people the opportunity NOT to discuss Brexit.

I would suggest a good number of books written on the subject of the famine. Kathleen Villiers Tuthill's book "Patient Endurance: The Great Famine in Connemara" is a good place to start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM

"Agreed Jim, but by taking the bait you are allowing people the opportunity NOT to discuss Brexit."
Can't have it both ways Rag - Brexit and Ireland atre intermingled or they are not
For those of us living in Ireland it is the main issue
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM

You forget Jim that I too am living in Ireland!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:02 PM

I think there is a value in concentrating on the future of Ireland, over on the Brexit thread. Obviously the past feeds into it, but I agree with Raggy that discussing Ireland's past can be a way of avoiding talking about its future. Separating the two is possible and, in my view, worthwhile. So my pennyworth is that this thread is a good way of stressing that both aspects are important, but they are not th2 sam2.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM

Personally, I have said all I want to say to the people concerned and was happy to leave it there
I ted to agree with Mac,but was not prepared to allow a Little Englander to use the Brexit thread to take yet another pop an a log suffering ex colony -
Over and out
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:33 PM

Which is precisely why I opened another thread Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:13 PM

A healthy minority of historians regard the use of the term "famine" as a heinous insult. There were thousands starving in Ireland and being forced to emigrate while the capitalists were exporting tons of Irish butter, and more, to England. "Famine" implies an unfortunate, unavoidable act of God. The great hunger was absolutely none of those things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: mg
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:36 PM

that is what my ancestors called it who lived (some of them) through it..potato famine to be exact and who am I to change it on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:27 AM

"that is what my ancestors called "
I was surprised when I first heard it called 'The Irish Holocaust' but found it to be quite common when we moved here
The publicaton of Sir Charles Trevelyan's letter describing the Famine as 'God's punishment on the lazy Irish' tends to bear out that description and the closure of Peel's relief programme and the adoption of a policy which restricted the distribution of relief in order to protect type market prices is further evidence
It is a fact that there was enough food in Ireland to feed the population four times over, it was never distributed but kept in locked warehouses under military guard - whether that was a deliberate attempt to starve the Irish off their land or 'to solve the Irish problem' is really immaterial - 1 million died o starvation and illnesses related to the conditions and a million were forced to emigrate

One of the great mysteries (nor really) is the fact that for a century and a half there was only one major study of the famine, written by an Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith - damning enough but extremely limited in scope.
The 150th anniversary, when Ireland was still basking in the glow of 'The Celtic Tiger', led to a landslide of published works on the famine
During one of these threads someone introduced me to the writings of Christine Kenneally - now the most respected Famine Historian
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:32 AM

Hey nonny no! Here he goes again, rattlin roaring jimmie!
I ted to agree with Mac,but was not prepared to allow a Little Englander to use the Brexit thread to take yet another pop an a log suffering ex colony -
.
Defintion time for our resident anglophobe.

"Little Englander" was a phrase applied to a wing of the Liberal Party opposed to expansion of the British Empire in the 19th century, who wanted "England" to extend no farther than the borders of English territory, and in full cooperation with Scotland and Wales as part of the United Kingdom. In the late 18th and 19th centuries the term was used for those Englishmen who looked upon the colonies of the British Empire as economically burdensome and wished the granting of self-government as quickly as possible.

This is the exact opposite in the meaning our geriatric racist bigot ascribes to it. How remarkably in character that is. Got it all totally ass about face as usual.

He obviously treats a dictionary with the same contempt he shows for history books judging by his ignorant diatribes.
    Back off, Iains, and stop using 'fighting words.' This is a discussion forum, not a battleground. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM

Back to his old form again I see
Ah well
I suggest that, if we want to continue with this we steer clear of it
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

Agreed. His days may be numbered, Jim. So let's all let him wallow on his own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 02:59 PM

Anybody who thinks criticising British politicians is being "anglophobic" has to be a little....., what's the word.... strange, to say the least
As MacColl would have written if he hadn't written, "We're a Nation of Animal Lovers...
"We'e a nation of rotten Anglophobics"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:05 AM

it's odd how the british found war like people all over the world, where ever they invaded, and equally odd that famine followed almost every such invasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:33 AM

What is most disturbing is that many of the problems left behind by the Empire are still major causes of strife; Ireland was just about settling theirs when Brexit stirred it all up again
India and Pakistan simmers away, and throughout the world the descendants of the 'safe pairs of hands' left behind by the fallen Empires continue their reigns of terror
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

I am glad that somebody explained to Jim what a 'little Englander' is.

As for stirring it up, Jim is doing a good job on that all by himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

"As for stirring it up, Jim is doing a good job on that all by himself."
Just as you are doing a good job making up your own history and not responding to other's opinions Karen
Your source of information has just had his knuckles rapped, I hope you will take note of that fact and not use the Irish as a 'battleground'
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM

This appears to ba a pretty fair SUMMING UP of what is happaning and what is likely to happen, thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

Two definitions, byt the way - the historical one and the one in modern usage
From The Collins dictionary
Jim

noun
1.
(esp in the 19th century) a person opposed to the extension of the British Empire
2. British informal
a person who perceives most foreign influences on Britain's culture and institutions as damaging or insidious


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM

Talk to the hand, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:30 PM

Nothing else worth addressing
Is it really that difficult to admit you are wrong ? - rhetorical question, of course
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:16 AM

More bile from the usual quarter. Yawn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

I note that one of the latest Irish terrorist sects is opposed to the EU. That was interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:28 AM

Karen that is because should a major" policing" action be required in the province in the future it would likely comprise units of this EU army that "will not exist"(We are told repeatedly on this forum) They would behave more like the gendarmerie in Paris or the Guardia Civil shipped into Catalonia. The outcome would be untidy in the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:40 AM

As for being 'wrong', what I have basically done is wish that there is no return to sectarian violence in Ireland, and argue in favour of measures calculated to reduce this risk. And I would do it again, famine or no famine. Because I don't like knee-cappings, punishment shootings, murder and so on. Sorry if I appear to be criticising Jim's heroes but there it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM

"what I have basically done is wish that there is no return to sectarian violence in Ireland,"
No - what you have done is ignored the causes of the sectarian violence and blamed it on the Irish, as little Englanders do
There wold be no sectarian violence if Britain hadn't deliberately created a sectarian state
My reference to your being "wrong" was your graciousness in sneering at the full definition of "little Englander"
I may as well "talk to your hand" - your knowledge and common sense doesn't appear to be particularly receptive
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 06:26 AM

Incidentally
The British Government has repeatedly opposed making the unlawful killings by British troops a criminal offence and the DUP spokesman is now in extremely hot water for saying they weren't criminal acts

The problem with discussing The Troubles is that it is treated as a one-sided event, ignoring the fact that the Loyalists introduced the gun into twentieth century Irish Politics, they pledged their lives to keeping the Northern Counties free of 'Papish Rule', they fired the first shots in the mid-twentieth century outbreak of open warfare and Churchmen like Paisley continued to stir up sectarian hatred long after the fighting was over.
Throughout all this, The British Establishment supported one side and, as honest cop, John Stalker's report exposed, the British Security forces were up to their bloody elbows in the sectarian killings from day one
All this information is freely available and accessible to be ignored by those who continue to wish to do so
Go read a book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

My favourite book;

Jim Carroll's patronising bile. Selected highlights from the career of a bad-tempered internet poster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

Still no response to facts Karen
If you had read a book on Ireland I'm sure you would be quite capable of producing more than disparaging and insulting comments
@Selected highlights' of anything are valueless unless representative of the whole
This started with your swingeing dismissal of the Irish people by describing Irish problems as being down to a people who can't get on with one another - as far from the truth as you could possibly get
Even the term 'sectarian' when applied to 'The Troubles' has nothing to do with personal religions beliefs rather than the use that was made of the differing religions to create and maintain an unequal society
When you start to address that fact you will begin to touch on the problems of the Irish People, North and South of the Border
Instead, you have resorted to the technique of your sole companion here by insulting and denigrating
You have yet to respond to one thing I have put up
MORE TO IGNORE
MORE STILL
YET MORE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:40 AM

Why drag me into your venomous postings? Trying to correct your perverted interpretation of history is a wasted effort. As can be demonstrated by your view of Tonypandy and the illustrious Maggie being accused of destroying the coal mining industry. No matter how many times you are pointed to factual records you deny their veracity. You are incapable of creating a measured post. Even on the folk threads you create dissent because someone has the temerity to disagree with you.
You dare talk of people insulting and denigrating? Peruse your own posting history. If it were mine I would be deeply ashamed, whereas you apparently revel in it.
What sort of person does that make you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM

Karen, I don't know your particular circumstance but the way Irish history is taught in England in my experience is somewhat limited if not to say biased or even bigoted.

There are numerous well written and informative books about. In terms of the troubles in North Ireland I would suggest as a starter:

"Those are real bullets, Aren't they?" by Peter Pringle and Phillip Jacobson.

I think one of the problems demonstrated on Mudcat time after time is the pre-ordained "thinking" by some factions which is based on little if any true information.

Hope you read the book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

"Why drag me into your venomous postings? "
Perhaps because you are an anti-Irish racist - isn't that enough ?
As afr as you are concerned - the rest is silence

British Northern Ireland Secretary has now withdrawn her remarks about the legality of shooting down Irish citizens - next week sees a decision of whether the 60 troops and 2 IRA member are to face prosecution for their crimes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM

Perhaps because you are an anti-Irish racist - isn't that enough ?

More delusions from a very sick mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:11 AM

Anti Irish racism is just that
"Boggtrotter" Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 09:50 AM

I have every reason to label you as I do little jimmie. Only in your crabbed mind could it be taken as a description ascribed to an entire country. But then you attach derogatory labels to all who disagree with you. Your voluminous posts provide plentiful confirmation, as many others will agree.

Below is a prime example of your disgusting posts.
He's an extremist right-wing criminal blogger who has apparently managed to plant one of his employees on this forum (no prizes...)
Probably a hermaphrodite - certainly into dressing-up and 'let's-pretend' games - someone you guard your children against
Jim


Who are you accusing of being a kiddy fiddler your malicious evil person?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:00 AM

That was directed at your criminal fetishist friend Guido and you ****** know it
The rest is just personal insults, which you have been warned about
Just go away - neither you or Karen have any intention of taking part in this
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:20 AM

That was directed at your criminal fetishist friend Guido and you ****** know it

Do you think swearing gives your response more street cred?
The way your post is constructed it is quite clear that the plant on this website can only refer to me. The following sentence is not qualified therefore it refers to the last entity mentioned. i.e. me.

Now lets be having an apology pronto!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:31 AM

Let's be having YOU removed permanently from this forum pronto, and let's have this Godforsaken thread closed pronto. Karen, Jim, you are both people with heart. PLEASE don't post to this thread any more....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

" Karen, Jim, you are both people with heart. PLEASE don't post to this thread any more...."
Sorry Steve
This subject is important to me - I have no intention of letting Ireland become a no go area (like Israel or MacColl) because of a couple of trolls
I have no intention of continuing with this line of discussion, but the subject remains open as far as I'm concerned
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM

OK Jim, but I think it needs a restart, maybe after a pause...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 02:53 PM

Got a night of crap on tele so, as long as I avoid the news I should be safe
Sriously Steve
Im not intending to respond to these people but as Ireland comes up and the Brexit Circus looks as it will I feel it would be stupid to ignore it
Britain is quite likely to lose a Northern Ireland Secretary i n the next few days
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:21 PM

Good on yer, Jim. And you, Karen. I luvs yer both, babes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:24 PM

Same time, same place tonight Steve !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:49 PM

I'll be the one wearing the Ugg boots and pink carnation, Jim...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:18 AM

Talk to the hand, Jim. One day you will learn the difference between insult and discussion. Or, then again, perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:35 AM

And Raggytash, thanks for the insulting implication that my position is based on ignorance of history, coupled with a dubious comment that Irish history is taught in a 'bigoted' way in English schools. It is not. It is possible to be opposed, as I am, to car bombings, knee-capping, protection rackets, tarring and feathering, and sectarian violence, however defined, while having a good understanding of history, including the potato famine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:51 AM

Some Irish history, which makes exactly the sort of point I would make about simplistic accounts of it. A good example of the way the topic is 'taught' in England, too?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/ireland_invasion_01.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:10 AM

Middle Ages
That was a some time before Henry burned Catholics tio enable hime getting his leg over, wasn't it
The world's grown up since then
You continue to insult Karen - and include the Irish people in your doind so
I'm happyy that I have insulted no-one here, just responded to bad behaviour
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

I'm rather surprised and disappointed at your response Karen.

In my post addressed to you I clearly stated "I don't know your particular circumstance" that is I don't know how much or little you know of Irish history. There is no insult in there it is statement of fact. Your response is totally out of order.

Secondly with reference to "the way Irish history is taught in England in my experience is somewhat limited if not to say biased or even bigoted."

I clearly stated "in my experience" again your response is heavy handed to say the least.

And for the record I too am opposed "to car bombings, knee-capping, protection rackets, tarring and feathering, and sectarian violence"


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:20 AM

I'm happyy that I have insulted no-one here, just responded to bad behaviour


So you do think thinly veiled accusations of paedophilia(quote Jim someone you guard your children against) are quite permissible to hurl about with no justification. You really are a sick old man are you not?

I would feel a lot happier if the mods sorted this issue once and for all.
Your non action lends tacit support to his slanderous statements.

If you are going to give me a public warning why so coy in this case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:13 AM

If you are going to give me a public warning why so coy in this case?

Bias.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM

I just finished "Black Potatoes" by Susan Campbell Bartoletti. It's aimed at middle schoolers and above but it tries to cover the bases in simple terms and concentrates on the events of the period. It 'paints' a base layer for further knowledge of the subject. Also reproduces periodical engravings of the events as depicted in English and Irish and American magazines. Many of them haunting.

Just beginning a more recent book that I heard reviewed on NPR: "Say Nothing" by Patrick Radden Keefe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

"So you do think thinly veiled accusations of paedophilia"
You can repeat this as often as you wish - it wasn't aimed d at you I've never sunk to your level of abuse, nor has anybody else
If the mods intended to sort anything out you'd have gone when I requested them to remove you
You have recently been warned about your continuing abusiveness - nobody else has
Bobad has now turned his bile onto the mods
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

My posting
"I think the Hansard underlines your point perfectly David, masked fetishistic criminal entry Staines totally distorted Labour's position by leaving out what actually was said - that the Government position was a penny-pinching measure to give the appearance that something ws being done when they were actually playing to the gallery   
The fact that that it is now five years since this affair was discussed and the same Tory Government has now been forced to take emergency measures to combat steadily rising knife crime is a spot-on indication that the bill was little more than a sop in he first place
Wonder how many deaths have occurred since then and how many more there would have been if the Tories hadn't needed something to show that they weren't the incompetent clowns Brexit has exposed them as being ?
These people are beyond belief"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

Raggytash, I deliberately referred to an 'insulting implication', and am happy with this. I was assuming that you took me to be 'English' and that you supposed I had learned about Ireland via the English education which, in my view, you misrepresented, albeit saying that you did this on the basis of 'limited experience'.

As it happens, I have attended English educational sessions in which it was stated that the Liffy in the times of James Joyce was dirty because it was full of English shit. Make what you like of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:58 AM

But at least somebody has finally joined me in deploring at least some violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

Violence which, however angry it might make Jim to say it, has been a marked feature of Irish history for a very long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

"So you do think thinly veiled accusations of paedophilia"
You can repeat this as often as you wish - it wasn't aimed d at you


A very belated, grudging clarification, though not an apology. So you do not deny the allegation against Mr Paul Staines?

Let us hope for your sake he does not use the Irish Defamation act of 2009.
The tort of defamation involves publication of a “defamatory statement” – defined as “a statement that tends to injure a person’s reputation in the eyes of reasonable members of society”.
For defamatory statements published via the internet, the cause of action accrues on the date that the statement is “first capable of being viewed or listened to through that medium”.

As I understand the US law the website is protected under freedom of speech. The same is not true of a poster emanating from Ireland, even more so as Mr Staines is also resident of Ireland.

Perhaps you should make a very clear apology lest he takes umbrage.
You have been warned about this before and simply said "bring it on."
Pride comes before a fall!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:53 AM

"So you do not deny the allegation against Mr Paul Staines?"
You said it was about you
Anyone who dresses up desreves to be suspected of being a perve to some degree - ot sure where those who support his pervy behaviour stand in all this?
They are the best judges of that
"But at least somebody has finally joined me in deploring at least some violence."
Most decent human being deplore violence - some take the trouble to find out the cause of it without condemning an entire nation out of hand
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

"Violence which, however angry it might make Jim to say it, has been a marked feature of Irish history for a very long time."
Ireland has been ruled by outsiders for 8 centuries and is now just about ending having been 'temporarily' partitioned ]#
Irish land was robbed to make room for settlers; they were forcibly moved onto land where “There isn’t a tree to hang a man, water to drown a man nor soil to bury a man”, they were massacred by Cromwell's Troops at Drogheda and elsewhere, forbidden to own land, vote, educate their children and speak their own language
Protests turning into reballions aimed at Independence from Britain were put down brutally for centuries - in the earlier ones the standard punishment waqs to be half hanged, taken down while still living and have the entrails burned while the victims witnessed their own disembowelment

In the mid 19th century, a natural disaster, at best grossly mismanaged but probably deliberately exacerbated, let to one million deaths and as many forced deportations despite the fact that there was enough food to feed four times the number concerned
The failure to pay rents caused by the conditions led to starving peasants being driven from their homes and left to die on the sides of the road while the houses they had been evicted from were destroyed top prevent their returning   
In 1916 a rebellion by a handful for rebels was put down by virtually destroying the center of Dublin, the leaders were executed without trial and without legal representation or the right to speak on their own behalf a display of brutality that eventually brought the richest Empire in the World crashing out of existence
Despite British laws to the contrary, the proceedings of those executions remain a closely guarded secret
This brutality led to turning what was an extremely eccentric unpopular minority event into a five year widely supported war of independence
During this war, British troops marched into the middle of a football match and shot deliberately fired into the crows, killing fourteen spectators, including children, and wounding sixty others Britain responded to their being forced to grant a degree of independence, by annexing six counties and creating a sectarian -led state were to be a Catholic was to be inferior and where Unionist led bloodletting were a regular event

In the 1960s the demands for civil rights and equality were officially directed into stone-throwing mobs, and ten protesters demanding the right to be treated as political prisoners were allowed to starve to death than grant them their basic human right.
The second Bloody Sunday Massacre saw the shooting down of an unarmed demonstrators in Derry leaving fourteen dead and as many again wounded
The British secretary for Northern Ireland has just brought herself to the point of resignation fro saying this was not murder

Now - which of these things never happened Karen ?
If they did, it makes British violence in Ireland a plip on the violence Richter Scale compared to any in-fighting that may have talken place among the Irish People
If you can't be bothered to answer, perhaps your hand can
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:54 AM

"Blip on the violence Richter Scale compared to any in-fighting that may have taken place among the Irish People"
I meant the opposite of course, but I'm sure this mistake will give those concerned an excuse not to respond to what I have written - seems par for the course with some people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 08:54 AM

"Blip on the violence Richter Scale compared to any in-fighting that may have taken place among the Irish People"
I meant the opposite of course, but I'm sure this mistake will give those concerned an excuse not to respond to what I have written - seems par for the course with some people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

Jim Carroll
Talk to the hand or to somebody who merits your persistent insults.
I think less of you the more of this bile you spout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:47 AM

Dum de dum de dum de dum!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:20 AM

"Dum de dum de dum de dum"
We already knew what you were without your telling us Bozo
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:38 AM

Well we all know that troublemakers should be dealt with - but only if they are not Irish toublemakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM

toublemakers - must be Irish spelling!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Faminetouble
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

Bonzo, do you have anything to actually contribute to this thread?

Your posts to date have been irrelevant to say the least.

For example:

"Dum de dum de dum de dum!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Well we all know that troublemakers should be dealt with - but only if they are not Irish toublemakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

and

"toublemakers - must be Irish spelling!!!"

If you want to read up on Irish history and the famine in particular I could recommend numerous books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:41 AM

Violence ... has been a marked feature of Irish history for a very long time.

Not quite- rather Violence has been a marked feature of HUMAN history since the beginning of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM

Jim:

If only you looked upon Jewish history as forthrightly as you looked upon Irish history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:57 PM

"If only you looked upon Jewish history as forthrightly as you looked upon Irish history."
Please don't start this again -
My grandmother was arrested for hitting Mosely with a Stone at a Liverpool Rally
My Father went to Spain when the family's Jewish neigbours described what was happening in Germany
His youngest Brother was one of the soldiers who opened up one of the Death Camps in Germany - as a regular soldier, later he was one of those who sailed out of Palestine to the sound of hand grenades being thrown into occupied homes to make room for the new Jewish State   
My family supported the Jewish State from the early days and I continue to do so in principle
I broke up with a girlfriend, I rowed with her holocaust survivor mother who referred to the State of Israel as "a bunch of fascists"
Please don't lecture me about Israeli history - I suggest you read Einstein's and his fellow intellectual's 1949 letter to the N.Y. Times if you want my opinion on what's happened to Israel and the antisemitic ethnic and crooked regime that is running it in the name of the Jewish People (antisemitic by definition)
You want to discuss Israel with me, open a thread, you want to accuse me of antisemitism - take up my offer, find me a single instance where I have ever denigrated the Jewish People and I will make a generous donation to any named charity - that offer is now about four years old and nobody has ever attempted to
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:45 PM

Ooops! So much for the rights of Arabs.

Jerusalem (AP)

Netanyahu on Sunday addressed “slightly confused people” after an Israeli celebrity defended the rights of Israel’s Arab population.

“When the hell will someone in this government tell the public that Israel is a country of all its citizens,” Sela wrote on Instagram.

Netanyahu responded: Israel “is the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM

" Israel “is the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people."
That's telling 'em what's what bigtime
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM

" Israel “is the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people."


So the remaining 25% are now stateless? Don't think that's going to fly in the face of international opinion. Does he want to become a pariah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

While morons keep dancing to his tune by claiming that criticism of Israel is Antisemitic, Nessie doesn't care what people think
People have fogotten that after the establishment of Israel, the father of Israel, David Ben Gurion, made this admission:

“If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

He had the good grace to add that the people the land was stolen from should be allowed to share it.
That has long flown out of the window and many of Ben Gurion's manuscripts are kept away from the rude gaze of the public, even his devoted followers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people just as France is the nation-state of the French people, Germany of the German people etc, that is an indisputable fact, that was the purpose of its creation. But, of course, that does not exclude others from living in those states with equal rights. That's the way it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 02:17 PM

You missed my point entirely JC, either by design or due to your habit of harangue. And I wasn't trying to derail the thread but to put you in context. Which you can't seem to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 02:22 PM

Sorry if I did - youu appeared to be criticising my take on Israel - if I was mistaken I apologise
I don't harangue - I argue because I care - very different
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM

Finally!! A Mensch!!!

Israel’s president has hit back at Benjamin Netanyahu after the prime minister said in reference to the country’s Arab minority that Israel was “not a state for all its citizens”.

Israel’s president, Reuven Rivlin, criticised what he said were recent “entirely unacceptable remarks about the Arab citizens of Israel”.

Netanyahu’s comments referenced a “nation state” law passed last year declaring that only Jews have the right of self-determination in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:56 PM

"I don't harangue". Hmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM

"Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people just as France is the nation-state of the French people, Germany of the German people etc, that is an indisputable fact, that was the purpose of its creation. But, of course, that does not exclude others from living in those states with equal rights. That's the way it is."

France is the nation state of the French people, foreign nationals of other countries who have settled there, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, Muslims, Jews, black, yellow, white. Germany is the nation state of the German people, foreign nationals who have settled there, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, Muslims, Jews, black, yellow, white. Indisputable facts. According to the hallowed leader of the Israeli regime, Israel is the nation state of Jews only, not the nation state of the fifth of the population who are not Jews.

Hope this helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:32 AM

This piece on the Yemen famine may help to make the matter of famine and politics clearer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:51 AM

Bobad.

French is a nationality
German is a nationality
Jewish is a religion

There is no comparison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:39 AM

"I don't harangue". Hmm.
I don't troll either Karen
If you have something ot say, please say it

"Netanyahu’s "
I think/hope Netanyahu’s days might be numbered - let's hope he is replaced by someone of less right-wing, more humanitarian leanings who are not prepared tyo blame the Jewish people for the crimes being committed by the present regime
INTERESTING DISCUSSION HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:39 AM

"I don't harangue". Hmm.
I don't troll either Karen
If you have something ot say, please say it

"Netanyahu’s "
I think/hope Netanyahu’s days might be numbered - let's hope he is replaced by someone of less right-wing, more humanitarian leanings who are not prepared tyo blame the Jewish people for the crimes being committed by the present regime
INTERESTING DISCUSSION HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:34 AM

"If you have something ot say, please say it"

Obviously you got the message, and I don't feel inclined to repeat it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

French is a nationality
German is a nationality
Jewish is a religion


From Wikipedia

"Jewish identity is also commonly defined through ethnicity. Opinion polls have suggested that the majority of Jews see being Jewish as predominantly a matter of ancestry and culture, rather than religion"

I am inclined to accept the opinion of Jewish people on this question rather than that of a non Jew pontificating on social media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

"Obviously you got the message, and I don't feel inclined to repeat it."
The message I got is that you prefer to abuse from a distance rather than discus the voluminous facts that you have been presented with
Your choice of course Karen - can't say I'm not disappointed
I may have responded sharply to what I believe to be unfair racist stereotyping, but I have never set out to insult you personally, as you have me
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:22 AM

You don't get, it, do you. In this country the playing field is set level by the constitution. There are no second-class categories of citizenship. Netanyahu has affirmed that for a fifth or more of his population.

My day-to-day money is in the good old TSB. I have savings in Goldman Sachs (Jewish) and I'm thinking of putting some in Al Rayan Bank (excellent ethics, great rates and Sharia-compliant - I care not a jot).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:23 AM

By the way, anyone else spot this nifty bit of racism?

"... that of a non Jew pontificating on social media."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:30 AM

""... that of a non Jew pontificating on social media.""
At least he's not blaming the Jews for Israeli war crimes this time
Climbing into bed with RACIST GROUPS has become part of the 'defend Israel at all costs' campaign
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:32 AM

Netanyahu is right: Israel is a nation with no interest in equality

... as a non-Jew in Israel, I cannot buy property in the vast majority of the country, and I can be barred by an admissions committee from living in a small, community town if I am not deemed “socially or culturally suitable”. I am unable to study Palestinian history at a state school because it is not taught, and I could put a theatre at risk of losing state funding if I promote a play describing Israel’s independence as a Nakba, or catastrophe, for the Palestinian people. If I wished to marry a Palestinian from the occupied territories, I could not bestow residency or citizenship on her so she could live with me and raise a family inside Israel; any Jew in the world, however, can fly into Ben Gurion airport and become a citizen.

In many ways, the nation-state law changes little for Palestinian citizens of the state, as the legal infrastructure for their inferior status has always been in place. And yet, by anchoring Jewish supremacy as a constitutional rule, the law also changes everything: now, Israeli courts and state bodies are obligated to carry out racial discrimination.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/13/netanyahu-israel-palestinian


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM

That's an excellent article (I read it a few minutes ago during the Mudcat shutdown) which gives the absolute lie to anyone blissfully thinking that Israel is a country in which Arabs are not discriminated against and in which there is free speech. Hardly a bastion of democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 10:55 AM

77% of Israeli Arabs would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

Not an answer. Just read the article and still tell me that there's free speech and no discrimination...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

"Not an answer. "
Course it isn't - what is missed out is how many have been driven out and those remaining have nowhere to go so, as Israel is their home, they would be forced into refugee camps if they left
A IT MORE REALISTIC PICTURE HERE
MUCH MORE DETAILS HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM

"Indeed [Israel is a country of] all of its citizens," Cheshin said, "Jews and non-Jews are 'shareholders' in the country, and the statement that the state is 'a state of all its citizens' does not detract from the state's being a Jewish state, and, if you will, the state of the Jewish people.

"We should remember and know – how could we forget? – that the Jewish people did not have – did not have and doesn't have – another country other than the State of Israel," Cheshin said, "but within the country, all of the citizens of the state have equal rights. And in our view, it would not be right to rule that someone who says that the State of Israel is a 'state of all its citizens' is denying the existence of the state as a Jewish state, in and of itself."


Supreme Court Justice Mishael Cheshin in his ruling handed down almost a quarter-century ago, in April 1996, a month before Netanyahu's first term as prime minister began.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

Israeli is the nationality, right, not jewish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:49 PM

Bobad hasn't read the article. He's been indulging frantically in confirmation bias all afternoon instead. It's what he does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

Then why bother talking to him Steve
Anyybody who blames the Jewish people for state terrorism and ethnic cleansing isn't worth talking to him
BAbout time to give him an Iains - he's a troll
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

Then why bother talking to him Steve
Anyybody who blames the Jewish people for state terrorism and ethnic cleansing isn't worth talking to him
BAbout time to give him an Iains - he's a troll
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

All Israelis are citizens with equal rights in the nation state of the Jewish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

Read the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

In an October 2013 decision, the Israeli Supreme Court denied the request to recognize "Israeli" as a nationality, and gave several essential reasons for supporting a specific "Jewish" nationality over a general "Israeli" nationality.

First, since it is reasonable to assume that a person cannot have two nationalities, this change would compel Jewish citizens of Israel to choose between being "Israeli" and "Jewish." Most Israeli Jews would be forced into an impossible predicament: we see ourselves as both Jewish and Israeli, and one does not exclude the other.

Second, if the nationality of Jewish citizens of Israel were to be classified as "Israeli," the implication would be that Judaism is not a nationality for them but is solely a religion. This idea is antithetical to the fundamental doctrine of Zionism and its main thinkers, from Herzl to Ben-Gurion, who saw Zionism as the national movement of the Jewish people.

Third, if the nationality of Jewish Israelis is defined as "Israeli" rather than "Jewish," then the "national" bond we believe binds together Jews in Israel and Jews in the Diaspora will be severed.

The Court dealt with this last point extensively. It adopted the position that one of Israel's essential characteristics as a "Jewish state" is its responsibility for the fate of the entire Jewish people—including the Jews of the Diaspora. For example, the Israeli penal code applies to crimes that are committed against Jews "because they are Jews" even if those crimes are committed outside of Israel, and applies to property of Jewish institutions that is vandalized because it is Jewish as well. The State of Israel has thus taken upon itself the duty of protecting world Jewry as a profound expression of global Jewish solidarity.

The responsibility of the State of Israel for world Jewry is an important expression of the fact that Israel is not an ordinary democratic state, but also a "Jewish state." Though we may be divided by geography and citizenship, Israeli and American Jews—and their brothers and sisters around the world—are members of one nation.

Thus, it is imperative for the State of Israel to distinguish between citizenship and nationality. Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs share a common citizenship. They are both Israeli, and are therefore entitled to and must be accorded the same civil rights. But they are not members of the same nation.

Nationality, according to the Israeli Supreme Court, is derived from objective traits such as religion, culture, and collective historical memory. This is another manifestation of the puzzle of identities characterizing the Jewish nation state. As a country that holds itself as both a democracy and the homeland of the Jewish people, debates will continue as to who is a Jew and who is an Israeli. What matters most is that we approach these debates in a respectful and consistent manner. The future of Israel depends on it.


Prof. Yedidia Z. Stern is Vice President of Research at the Israel Democracy Institute and a professor of law at Bar-Ilan University. Jay Ruderman is President of the Ruderman Family Foundation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:50 PM

There's no up side to engaging with fuckwits, gentlemen. Take care, or next you'll be wasting breath on The Bearded One.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 08:41 PM

Correct. And he really doesn't want to read that article, does he? Nil credibility until he does and until he responds to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:39 AM

HOW EQUAL ARABS ARE IN ISRAEL
THIS EQUAL


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 AM

AND THIS
AND THIS
REALLY EQUAL
A "SELF-HATING" JEW CONDEMNS TREATMENT OF ARABS


Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM

About time we left the Troll to wade in his own swill
Michael Gove has announced that a Brexit crash-out will need to involve a re-establishment of Direct Rule from Westminster Britain's the interests of Britain and the Six Counties are to remain the same
This is tantamount to throwing way all the gains thet have been made since The Good Friday Agreement and will almost inevitably bring violent conflict that much nearer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM

Gove putting pressure on the Irish Gov to abandon the Backstop ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:14 AM

DETAILS HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM

I read it as Gove putting pressure on the DUP to back May's deal - cuz I think they've got used to striding around in their big ole boots, and a more emphatic rule from Westminster will sure put a crimp in that particular style of footwear. It'll mean they're not the biggest kids on the block anymore. And their pet bribemaster will most likely not be leader for much longer, so no help there. Ooooops.

Foster also needs to ponder long and hard about her party's chances, come local election time, if she throws their farmers and small businesses under the bus via a threat of no-deal (which would also increase the likelihood of a border poll).

I see that she's actually spoken to Varadkar - ah, the power of St Paddy's Day in Amerikay...

So Gove may just be putting the frighteners on her. And she IS making softer noises now than in days of yore.

Still... Michael. Gove. As greased an eel as they come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

I saw an interview in which he said it would be logistically impossible to push on with a breakout Brexiit without returning to Direct Rule - may be bluff, of course
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:53 PM

So how come we can't have equality between Protestants and Catholics in either of the Irelands, which, let's face it, have been around a lot longer than modern Israel?
And, unlike other countries, does not Ireland still have a Blasphemy law?

notice how I'm making a comment well within the original intent of the thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:27 PM

"Equality between Protestants and Catholics [not to mention the other religions] in either of the Irelands"...???
I've lived in the Republic for most of my adult life - nearly 30 years - and I have no idea what exactly you even mean. When were you last here, and for how long?

Blasphemy law got kicked off the books some time ago. Won the referendum by a healthy majority.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1027/1007130-blasphemy-referendum/


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:48 PM

interesting article on tensions between Catholics and Protestants.
" Statistically, Protestants do tend to be bigger farmers, but there are plenty from poorer or working-class backgrounds "

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-secret-lives-of-ireland-s-protestants-1.2955670


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM

Notice the dates on those stories... they go back to the 1940s and 50s. The Ireland of today is a very different place even from when I was first here in the early 70s. And it was already changing then. That’s a research project concerning social history, not a discussion of modern times.

The rate of change here has been rapid, even from when I first moved here in 91. The old walls falling away remind me of nothing so much as a row of dominoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:08 PM

The news of the Troubles was clear enough to indicate modern sectarian tensions which have risen and fallen over hundreds of years. What do you think this thread is about?

There is a rather complete summary by country of blasphemy law
in Wikipedia

I remember conversation in Mudcat last year regarding Stephen Fry getting some notoriety on the Irish radio. The referendum dates from October of last year. But there are still some references to blasphemy in Irish law, according to the article. (I tend to believe Wikipedia but I have no easy way to validate it).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:24 AM

I took "equality between Protestants and Catholics in either of the Irelands" as referring to both sides of the border. And with regard to the Republic, if you mean the power of religion, you're out of date. Things have changed - shifted - dramatically, and they're evolving all the time. All the google searches in the world don't negate that. Come spend some time here, get your ear to the ground, and then judge.

The blasphemy law was overturned by public referendum by about two-thirds to one-third, and the Stephen Fry thing (which happened back in 2015) was what helped push it out. Somebody reported him to the gardai, who took a statement and said they'd look into it. But "a well-placed source said it was 'highly unlikely' that a prosecution would take place."* Nor did it.

"Atheist Ireland said it welcomed the garda investigation into Mr Fry for blasphemy, saying it 'highlights a law that is silly, silencing, and dangerous'."
A.I. then went on to publish a whole string of blasphemous quotes to deliberately challenge it, to the great glee of many (including me). And... crickets.

Believe me, I know perfectly well what this thread is about. I remember going from being searched by men with live machine guns at the border crossings, to whizzing through on a dual carriageway and only knowing we were on the other side when the road signs went from miles to kilometres. Nobody who has to live with the consequences wants to go back to the bad old days.


* https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-launch-blasphemy-probe-into-stephen-fry-comments-on-the-meaning-of-life-35684262.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM

"Notice the dates on those stories.."
Always handy to those who wish to depict the Irish as backward "bogtrotters" Bonnie

Protestants and Catholics have got on pretty well in the South since since Independence, even more so since the slackening of influence of the Church following the Clerical Abuse revelations
The same goes for BLASPHEMY LAWS

THe North still has to hold enquiries into clerical abuse in the Six Counties, IN SPITE OF DEMANDS THAT THEY SHOULD TAKE PLACE

One of the effects of the changes in law over pregnancy termination in the South was to promote calls for Northern women to be extended the same rights
THE APPEASEMENT OF THE DUP BY THE TORIES seems to put the block on that one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

Cross Posted there Bonnie
You are right, people need to come and see for themselves rather than leaning on the old stereotypes
Britain never has quite shaken off the old PIG IN THE KITCHEN image of the |Irish so beloeved by Trevelyan and his ilk
(Donchal love the May with the bag of bung money mural?)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

I spent a lovely couple of weeks in and around Listowel some years back. We attended a Sean McCarthy memorial event in his home village of Finuge where I met his widow. At the event there were a few Irish Republican songs, stories and jokes about the British but I never felt threatened at all. In a pub in Listowel where I, as a Mancunian, bumped into the Listowel branch of the Chelsea supporters club when Chelsea had just lost to Manchester United, I had to tell some lads at the bar I was from Bolton :-)

Football is the new religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

"Football is the new religion!"
FIFA abuse - the mind boggles
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:56 AM

Funny because I live in the UK and have walked out of places where Irish people have demanded to hear songs about killing Englishmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:00 AM

Not to mention the recent parcel bombs in London and Glasgow for which a group claiming to be the new IRA claimed responsibility. These people chose to behave in this way, and I for one do not think the potato famine justifies, excuses or even explains it. They chose it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:05 AM

Always handy to those who wish to depict the Irish as backward "bogtrotters" Bonnie

Making the usual mistake of a curmugeon. Totally misunderstand what was said and fire off the hip with a totally unrelated response concerning you bandwagon of the moment(nothing new there!)

Despite all the changes in recent decades in many places Protestants hold the better farms and the Anglo Irish aristocracy still retain the sporting rights over tracts of land subsequently sold as freehold or held as commonage.

" The vast estates owned by aristocratic landlords were mostly broken up as a result of the
land acts , which allowed tenants to buy their land, but some families have maintained huge holdings."
As an example:The wealthiest scion of the brewing family, Ned Guinness, the Earl of Iveagh, has concentrated on his interests in England recently.He owns the 22,000-acre Elveden estate in Suffolk, making him one of the largest land owners in the UK. It is also a working estate and the Earl is reckoned to grow about 10pc of all the onions eaten in the UK.After selling Farmleigh to the State for €29m, the family retained a 700-acre cattle farm at Kilrue, Mulhuddart, Co Dublin"
Peregrine Andrew Mornay Cavendish, the 12th Duke of Devonshire, owns an 8,000 acre estate in the south-east, based around Lismore Castle in Co Waterford. The family also owns Careysville House on 200 acres in Co Cork and include a 20-mile stretch of the River Blackwater with valuable fishing rights. The estate may be vast by Irish standards, but it is a mere cabbage patch compared to his English holdings of 70,000 acres, which are mainly in Yorkshire and Derbyshire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

"Irish people have demanded to hear songs about killing Englishmen."
Just as our folk clubs have been presenting songs about killing the French, Germans..... and jsut about everybody else going back centuries
on;tr be silly Karen - wars always produce songs
Did you know that that after some of the sorties in Ireland (where British soldiers conspired with sectarian terrorist groups) the soldiers took trophies from the events and made up songs, hung them on the wall of the NAFFIs and made up about their adventures
An archivist friend went to The North to purchase examples of sone of the songs being made - one of the prizes in his collection was a Loyalist cassette enitled 'The Pope's a Darkie'
Grow up please Karen there are no good sides in war - only winners, losers and the dead
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM

The "Troubles" are NOT ancient history, as anyone aware of the extremes AND the complexities can readily attest. To imagine' that one knows what all others' think (bogtrotters) is to be oneself entrapped in a web of one's own prejudices (The pointing finger and the other four pointing back kind-of-thing).

An interesting thing going on recently that no one has mentioned is the use of the
Palestinian and the Israeli flag by Catholic and Protestant partisans going on right now. I don't know when this started, but it is relatively fresh because it wasn't going on when I was in Eire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM

Interesting turn of events with the flags robomatic. Thanks for the links. A snippet from the first one, "Should further atrocities be perpetrated on Israelis in the coming days and weeks", reminded me of something posted on another thread recently.

Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty

Attributed to Joseph Goebbals. Looks like the side most affected by his party are now using the same tactics :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:18 AM

"The "Troubles" are NOT ancient history, "
Very true, and they will never be a thing of the past until the border is removed - I'm not a nationalist in any shapeor form, but even I know that, it's simply common sense
Catholics and Protestants outside politics have always got on - their religion dictates that they do
The problem has always been when politicians use such differences to divide and rule
The British Government has just succumbed to trying the perpetrators of The Bloody Sunday Massacre long after previous Government have declared it a crime and have apologised
Their way out of the problem has ben to choose a scapegoat
The families of the victims are obviously not happy,but they have shown far more dignity and tolerance than have the British establishment ever have
It remains to be seen what will happen now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:17 AM

Very true, and they will never be a thing of the past until the border is removed - I'm not a nationalist in any shapeor form, but even I know that, it's simply common sense

Only common sense if both sides agree to it,otherwise it is stupidity.
The border is between two different countries. Those flags and drums paraded each year in the north are not to say Hi-de-Hi to the Pope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

Jim provides such good material when you feel like a laugh to cheer you up. Here's the latest gem:

"Catholics and Protestants outside politics have always got on - their religion dictates that they do."


Where do you start unpicking nonsense like this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

I don't feel entirely comfortable in agreeing to what Iains says, because I disagree with him so often, but he is of course right in pointing out that the violence came from both protestant and catholic communities.

As Jim himself reminded us, it was to protect the catholic community in northern ireland from violence on the part of some in the protestant community that the army was sent in prior to the outbread of the big troubles in the 20th century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

Not sure why Jim uses the word 'succumbed'. Odd usage in that context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:41 AM

Well, Jim, the hatreds will never die down when there are people like you to keep them alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:44 AM

Why won't you respond to what has been said Karen ?
Your refusal to do say is as loud as any answer
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

The oly hatred here is your and Iains
Your racist stereotyping if the Irish as a people who need Britain from keeping them for killing each other - Iains constantly referring to people to people who live in Ireland as "bog-dwellers"
In taking sides with Iains you are part of a minority of three - the only other person to support Iains here is the hate-filled troll, Bobad
Enjoy your threesome
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

Of course, and this point is linked to Iains' point that violence comes from more than one camp, if or when Northern Ireland unites with the Irish Republic, Great Britain can expect an influx of immigrants/refugees from the former Northern Ireland. Not expressing a view in favour of or against, but it seems inevitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

This 'why don't you respond' is one of Jim's less interesting strategies and for me it proves nothing, especially when the person has responded. Jim's use of it proves .. oh I cannot be bothered to descend to that level.

I will just say that of one thing I am certain, the Irish are not a 'race'. As it happens I believe that 'race' is a social construct not a biological fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

If you regard discussion as a "strategy" why bother taking part in a discussion forum ?
The only thing you are doing here is demonstrating how British and its hatred of Ireland and the Irish have caused so much bloodshed down the centuries
Your attitude is not only racist, it is now becoming downright offensive
You have found yourself a very apt bedfellow
TRY AGAIN
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:08 AM

Threesome? Jim seems to do it all by himself. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:14 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_lines


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

THe "Peace Lines" in your link are thaose that have become necessary since Britain forcibly partitioned Ireland and created a sectarian state
They were put in place in 1969 when a Civil Rights march demanding equal rights with the two thirds majority which had been created by artificially dividing Ireland into two separate states

In essence, the warring factions were not Irish versus Irish but Irish Catholics fighting Britons
You might like to bear this fact in mind - originally the intention was to make the whole of Ulster a State - them someone did the math and realised that this would not create the majority Britain needed, so the knocked off three of the Ulster Counties - Ireland was deliberately divided into a sectarian dominated State
It was the dominant sectarian Loyalists who fired the first shots in The Troubles, just as it was the same people who threw te stones and turned peaceful protests into a murderous bloody war
The Irish have never been at war with The Irish - Britain has always been regarded as the oppressor
I suggest you read what you put up - the information is all there
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

Oh Dear! he is not very good at history is he? More once "upon a time"
rubbish. If everyone else had his distorted totally bigoted view od events the violence would be ongoing. Luckily only a very small minority of only one hold such divisive views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:47 PM

DETAILS HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:37 AM

I think the current nature of the inheritance of the bitter times is the uncertain economic future we are entering thanks to the uncontrolled BREXIT we are heading for. Should the need come for a 'hard border', old demons are feared to arise and with the prospect of humans dressed in uniforms and border stops and inspections and waiting lines of tourists, commuters and goods, there will be a temptation for those with old grievances to once more set match to combustible or worse.


No one forgets where the hatchet is buried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

"No one forgets where the hatchet is buried."
It was never really buried - annual triumphal displays of superiority and aggression have made sure of that
One of the great features of these displays has been the flying of The Union Jack - a reminder of who is still in charge up there
This was never Irish v Irish, nor really was it altogether religious - they were politically based and manipulated
I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks - for almost the entire year the area was a community - come 'The Glorious Twelfth', shops were boarded up the streets became a no-go area - the following day, back to normal
I assume things have now greatly improved now, as they were beginning to in the North of Ireland
Now that is being threatened - politics again
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:20 PM

I imagine a 'hard' Irish-British border as something like this


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:23 PM

I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks - for almost the entire year the area was a community - come 'The Glorious Twelfth', shops were boarded up the streets became a no-go area - the following day, back to normal
And was this because of expected violence by the British/English? Or because of expected violence by some part of the Irish contingency of Liverpool?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:40 AM

Poverty and job competition?
https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/2010280/3/RobertsKei_April2015_2010280.pdf

Discrimination occurred in the US.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-york-times-finds-no-irish-need-apply-in-classified-ads-1.2345597

Another rather simplistic view. Canada and Discrimination.

https://schoolworkhelper.net/irish-famine-immigration-1840/


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM

"And was this because of expected violence by the British/English? "
It was down to the fact that the British Empire created a sectarian state in Ireland which instigated aggressive sectarian marches to display the superiority of those they left in charge
It iolence surrounding Orange maches have never had anything to doi with th difference in religions - if they had, this violence would be preent all the year round rather than on one day of the year
Outside of politics, Catholics and Protestants get on quite well together - this is a historical fact - the war has always been about British control of Ireland - religion is an excuse
It was a common occurrence during the period when it was forbidden for Catholics to purchase land, that their Protestant neighbours did so on their behalf
Britain's oldest trick was to divide those they wished top control
As far as Liverpool is concerned - the large Irish population reflected what was happening back home - triumphalism and all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:02 AM

By the way - the secret oa ll this lies in the chosen names
Loyalist = loyalty to Britain - a foreign power
Republican = loyalty to Ireland - the Mother country
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

The Iriny of all of this of course is that a large number of those in the Northern Counties (anround a third) are Ulster Soots - from a country equally historically dominate and persecuted by the British establishment
Divide and rule at its best
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

The Iriny) of all of this of course is that a large number of those in the Northern Counties (anround a third are Ulster Soots - from a country equally historically dominate(sp) and persecuted by the British establishment

Of course Ireland was subjugated in 1169 whereas Scotland was largely independent until the act of union of 1707 and the Scottish monarchy actually ruled England for a while until the end of the reign of Queen Anne.

It is interesting that with the victory of William (a staunch Protestant) at the battle of the Boyne, the Pope of the day supported the Protestant King William of Orange against the Catholic King James II.
It is said that a Mass of deliverance was celebrated in Rome after King William's victory and bells were ordered to be rung and the loca ldrubbing is what is remembered not the major issue.

The battle was fought over continental issues not parochial.although they superficially took precedence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

It is indeed ironic that the Scots were originally from Dal Riata, so on the basis of Jim's depressingly nationalistic ideas and arguments about who people 'really are' they would count as Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM

"Jim's depressingly nationalistic "
I fear nationalism nearly as much as I fear fascism
Where have I ever discussed where people come from and who they are ?
I have said over and over again that it is thepolitics that were installed into the six counties - the people got on before the division of Ireland and they continue to do so
Your hit and run postings coupled with your refusal to respond is getting very boring Karen - it's downright cowardly now
Please stop this -
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 01:07 PM

Karen - borrowing from your own book of rules - it really is time you Empire Loyalists came to terms with the fact that Britannia no longer rules the waves and the world really doesn't need its guidance any more
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:20 PM

Empire Loyalists ???????

Oh Dear! Too much star trek. The laddie is stuck in a time warp.

the people got on before the division of Ireland ???????

Arrant nonsense! Wot's all this below? A list of tea parties?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Ireland


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM

Jim:

It's not that you're totally wrong about your statements and logic, it's that you seize upon your chosen subset of beliefs and then repeat yourself ad infinitum and show no adaptibility to the complexities of the real history. Irish/ British history is long and involved, and Irish Republicanism is likewise. Likewise the influence/dominance of the Irish Catholic church for both good and ill. You're like that as well in Jewish/ Israeli issues as you've also shown in this venue. And any arguments that pass outside of your chosen context you simply ignore. And then there's this weird tolerance of Stalinism that lies beneath the surface and informs your thoughts even when you do not bring that out explicitly. And when folks get tired of your restatements of your prejudices you declare victory.

So, hey, congrats!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

NINE OUT OF TEN
BRITAIN's HISTORTY OF PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP WITH ITS FELLOW MEN
Worth noting that every Irish conflict since the 12th century has been in relation to Ireland gaining independence over Britain, while virtually all British conflicts have been about gain and dominance of others

Sorry lads, I had no intention of engaging in discussion with with the gruesome twosome, but, when they start moving in packs it really is time to call in pest control

Robo
I've really had a bellyful of Little Englanders trying to revisit their Glorious Imperial past at the expense of their former victims
My family suffered British rule more or less in silence - I'm ***** if I'm going to if they decide to take to the streets again
Sorry
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:40 PM

A reasoned response


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 11:47 PM

Jim:

At least you are frank in your emotional response. I never doubted that you are in earnest, but you are like that cat Mark Twain refers to, that jumped onto a hot stove and got burned. It never jumped onto a hot stove again. Nor a cold one.

As for "little Englanders" I believe someone maybe earlier in this thread went into detail about the major shift in meaning of this term from the past century to the present. There is a somewhat clever show called, and I'm only going by memory here, "An Idiot Abroad". The guy behind the show is Ricky Gervais, who gets entirely too much pleasure out of his buddy's discomfort. His buddy is the 'Little Englander'. How all this applies to the current version of English Irish relations is a bit beyond me. I used to live in the Boston (USA) area, which has a considerable Irish ambience and considerable English history, although we did not normally get contentious along those lines, as being America, we have many ethnic fault lines to enjoy. But I recall some really good public broadcasting shows on Irish history which went into detail about the many incidents on the rocky road to Irish Independence. There were several secret societies, then there were some open parties, along the way there were Protestants such as Charles Stewart Parnell who did their best, in his case being foiled by a scandal, and of course Michael Collins, who was shot by his fellow Irish Catholics.


As for the English, if you're making the point that they were bloody colonizers, hey, we (Yanks) were started as colonies. We had formal wars with the English more than once. Twice, I think. They are still, after all is said and done, Mom. Your mileage may vary. Sláinte chugat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:55 AM

Sorry Robo
You appear not to understand the situation Ireland is in at present - not past battles, but a chance that the 1970s will kick off all over again if the border becomes visible
It's not just a case of opening old wounds but the hardship that is likely to cause on both sides of the border, and the effect that is likely to have on the Good Friday Agreement
Irish people tend to get on - pretty well with everybody, but certainly with each other
Britain seems set fair to bung a viciously sectarian party another lump of the taxpayers money in order to make the unacceptable possible and is blaming Ireland for the mess they have got themselves in, which isn't going to do too well for the natural friendship between ordinary people here or in Britain - scapegoatism and divide and rule ate two of the devices that have let to us being led by morons for far too long
When a couple of flag-waggers start dragging up events that go back as far as the Normans to revive ancient conflicts, I feel the need to respond - we've just seen fifty good reasons why such national and cultural hatred need to be nipped in the bud - they've just started to bury the results   
If I repeat myself (guilty on that one) I do so because I believe that's what you do with children who refuse to learn
Another repetition
I'm British born, my parents were British born - we are a English born family, yet, because I have chosen to live in Ireland over the last twenty years one of these morons refers to me as a "bogtrotter" while the other refers tot me as (presumably an Irish) "Nationalist"
I don't know how to deal with such people other than to repeat things they seem unable to grasp - they did away with 'special schools in Britain a long time ago
Anyway, when people get as nasty as they do, it gives a sort of perverted pleasure to allow them to humiliate themselves
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

GOOD SUMMING UP OF "LITTLE ENGLAND" HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

they did away with 'special schools in Britain a long time ago.

A crying shame you might have had some benefit from remedial schooling.
Your posts may then have actually had some vestigial contact with reality. Instead you post nonsense and get upset when treated like a fool!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

Robomatic: your summary of Jim's approach is good but omits his tendency to sling insults about aggressively when he is pressed to be less simplistic and faced with sensible objections. While we are rounding out history, let's not forget that a lot of violent terrorism on the island of Ireland was funded by 'yanks'. Given their way over the years, the Irish would arguably now be subject to some Catholic European power, with the Spanish and the French being the two contenders or to the US "empire".


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM

Here's a nice Washington Post article which describes, among other things, US pro Irish-republican ignorance of the politics of Sinn Fein.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1987/03/22/irish-troubles-american-money/593e3941-826e-4719-bc79-8eb528f8ac70/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1287634d022e

I won't bother addressing Jim's recent denials within this thread that he did say what he said what he plainly said earlier in this thread because I think this is just a tactic he uses rather than an honest statement. It is all of a piece with his denials that he ever insults people, which are so blatant that they often occur in the same post as a lot of insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:59 AM

And I came into this by asserting that if it all kicks off again on the island of Ireland after Brexit then those Irish people who engage in violence have made a personal choice and one for which they cannot 'blame' the potato famine or imperialism. I don't like violence, Jim would, it appears, be cheering it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

Jim sitting there on his UK pension, earned via training he got in the UK, presumably benefitting from UK National Health agreements with the EU for his health care, and wishing death and destruction on others on the basis of what are plainly nationalist anti-UK and anti 'prod' views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:11 AM

Karen it is very clear he is an embittered old man. He is always bleating about how hard done by his commie father was and this subjection to perpetual whining and brainwashing by his pater accounts for his hatred of all things british(apart from his pension of course!) He is really a sad little man that is best ignored because the majority of his posts are coloured by his tunnel vision of a totally perverted reality. And of course each time this is mentioned a stream of abuse results. Just watch below!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

Iain: I was trying not to be personal as far as possible, but to show that Jim himself has derived benefits from being born in and working in the UK. I realise Jim won't see it this way, but I cannot go along with the tone of your last post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

I'd remind you that a state pension has to be earned. You do that by going to work and paying NI contributions over many years. Unless you've done that, you won't get enough pension to sustain you in a cardboard box under Waterloo Bridge. As long as you've paid up, the pension is yours as of right, irrespective of your political views or your nationalistic allegiances, according to the rules that apply to everyone equally from James Dyson right down to Tommy Robinson, as with entitlement to health care as set via reciprocal agreements with the EU. Actually, the UK state pension is one of the worst in the western world, an interesting though perhaps irrelevant fact in the present context.

It behoves you to desist from throwing barbs along these lines at people who are living within agreed rules and who are abiding by the law, simply because you don't like their political stance. That's childish, Karen, and I think you know it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:06 AM

Steve

I have no idea why you think it is a good idea to inform me of stuff I know already. But if it makes you happy, please go ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

And I don't know why you have recently turned so aggressive. Let's move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:41 AM

"I don't know why you have recently turned so aggressive"

It must have rubbed off from Jim. I don't think I have ever quite descended to his level.

Glumly resigns herself to more Irish terrorist attacks founded on the odd belief that this is an apt response to a famine that happened a long time ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:49 AM

Careful Karen or he'll be speaking to his mod friend about you next, that's the usual procedure with those who disagree with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM

I'd remind you that a state pension has to be earned.

INTERESTING that it is classed as a benefit now.

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/121267


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:17 AM

The state pension you receive is dependent on your NI contributions over many years. I don't care what you want to call it. That's plainly how it is. Using it as a stick to beat your adversaries with is completely out of order.

And which "mod friend" would that be, bobad? Go on, mate, be bold. Name a name!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

Still more abuse and no answers from the two
THe State pesnsion does not have to be "earned" it is paryed fro by the contributions of workers
No clocking in or pay packet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM

KarenH:

As to your point about American involvement in Irish Republican affairs, we certainly were and are. Check out Stan Rogers' song "House of Orange". Americans have been involved in the affairs of EVERY country we came from.

Spanish Americans altered the economy of Europe with all the gold they 'inherited' from the locals. They also brought pellagra to Italian peasants by trying to feed them on a monoculture of American corn (maize). English colonists came as a refuge from Catholic England then during the Puritan Revolutioin fed a backflow of Protestants to England. Irish Americans worked in various ways for Ireland. Canadians, too. If you haven't heard Stan Rogers' song "House of Orange" check it out for a personal response to the issue. Chinese Americans supported Sun-yat-Sen. Americans from Mexico and points South have supported their fellows across borders. Jewish Americans sent money and bodies to the Palestinians in the 1930s and 40s when Palestinians were invariably Jews (and with Irish American support, because they were both subverting English governing bodies).

Americans all come from somewhere and have usually weighed in on the issues and environments from which they came.

With no knowledge whatsoever I'm going to assert that the very first Americans sent back emissaries across the Bering Strait to tell those mammoth hunting bastards how stupid they were for some reason. And 'help' them improve or amend their hunting and fighting prowess.


(I know I mentioned Stan Rogers' twice. He's THAT good!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM

A persistent claim of the Irish Government, fully backed by the EU, is that an invisible border is necessary to protect the Good Friday Agreement. Not only does the Good Friday Agreement not mention the border but it also makes little reference to the EU other than to note its existence.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/brexit-and-the-irish-border/

The Irish foreign minister Simon Coveney recently made the unhelpful comment that he hoped to see Ireland united in his “political lifetime” – one would assume he meant in the next twenty or so years. It would be helpful, to say the least, if Irish politicians would respect that part of the GFA which states that is the wish of the people of NI to remain within the UK. Continued references to Irish Unity are a form of political harassment which could at some stage inflame loyalist opinion.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/brexit-and-the-irish-border/


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

"The most widely stated reason for avoiding a hard border is to maintain the ‘peace process’ in Northern Ireland. Many, including Tony Blair and John Major, imply that what is at stake is ‘peace’ itself, and hence a return of the violence of the 1968-1998 ‘Troubles’. This is incorrect. No one at senior level in Northern Ireland has suggested that largescale violence will resume"
Briefings for Brexit 10/02/2018

No deal 2019
This is one of the most serious problems posed by Brexit.
Officially and even unofficially, Irish officials have insisted the Government is not preparing in any way for the return of a hard border and the potential security risks this will bring.
However, if a hard border is reintroduced, there are genuine fears it will lead to a rise in potential violence in Northern Ireland.
And while British police said last week they will send officers to the north to help address any outbreaks of violence if this is needed, such a move would inevitably throw yet more petrol onto the flames.


Full consequences here
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/brexit-is-more-than-just-empty-jargon-it-will-change-your-everyday-life-897280.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:34 PM

Don't forget that one can top up NI contributions made over many years to increase State Pension entitlement, but out of already taxed income of course. The subsequent increase in pension is taxed again!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

And quite what that is to do with the Irish, is beyond me it is, it is!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

Hot off the presses
An Irish in Brtain view (if they are allowed to have one
VIOLENCE AND IRISH UNITY INEVITABLE AFTER BRITAIN CRASHES OUT
Wednesday 20 March 2019
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

I was under the impression that this was understood in Parliament and what was meant by having a Brexit backstop. John Oliver in his Brexit recap was quite definite about the consequences of a hard border being installed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:13 AM

Well, if John Oliver says so, it must be true! (whoever he is)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:23 AM

John William Oliver (born 23 April 1977)[3] is an English comedian, writer, producer, political commentator, actor, and television host. Oliver started his career as a stand-up comedian, both in the United Kingdom and United States.

A pundit on a par with crispy boy Linekar who is qualified as a footballer, BBC luvvie and airhead.

Both best ignored by anyone with half a working brain cell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

"Both best ignored by anyone with half a working brain cell."
As distinct from a fetic=shist criminal right wing career blogger, you mean
Whoever Oliver is, his message is right in line with the consequences being outlinned all all the other articles being put out which you pair of anti-Irish flag-waggers have totally ignored
Edwina Curry has just let the sparrowhawk out of the bag by more or less making it clear that the only policy Brexiteers have is to leave Europe, whatever the consequences - the term she used is Britain has always managed to "muddle through all difficulties"
Current British policy in a nutshell
Can't ling this so I'll put it up in full - much more impressive anyway
Jim Carroll

The English are blindly driving Northern Ireland to conflict – the fear is that they are too stupid to care
A return to violence is not a worst-case scenario but an inevitability if a hard border returns, as it will if there is a full Brexit
Patrick Cockburn
Friday 1 March 2019 15:15

I was sitting in a cafe on the Falls Road in heavily nationalist West Belfast when a local radio reporter came in looking for residents to interview about the effect of Brexit on Northern Ireland. She said that the impact was already massive, adding: “Stupid, stupid English for getting us into this pickle. We were doing nicely and then they surpassed themselves [in stupidity].”

It does not take long talking to people in Northern Ireland to understand that almost everything said by politicians and commentators in London about the “backstop” is based on a dangerous degree of ignorance and wishful thinking about the real political situation on the ground here. Given how central this issue is to the future of the UK, it is extraordinary how it is debated with only minimal knowledge of the real forces involved.

The most important of these risks can be swiftly spelled out. Focus is often placed on the sheer difficulty of policing the 310-mile border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland because there are at least 300 major and minor crossing points. But the real problem is not geographic or military but political and demographic because almost all the border runs through country where Catholics greatly outnumber Protestants. The Catholics will not accept, and are in a position to prevent, a hard border unless it is defended permanently by several thousand British troops in fortified positions.

The threat to peace is often seen as coming from dissident Republicans, a small and fragmented band with little support, who might shoot a policeman or a customs’ official. But this is not the greatest danger, or at least not yet, because it is much more likely that spontaneous but sustained protests would prevent any attempt to recreate an international frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic that wasn’t backed by overwhelming armed force.

It is unrealistic to the point of absurdity to imagine that technical means on the border could substitute for customs personnel because cameras and other devices would be immediately destroyed by local people. A new border would have to be manned by customs officials, but these would not go there unless they were protected by police and the police could not operate without British Army protection. Protesters would be killed or injured and we would spiral back into violence.

We are not looking at a worst-case scenario but an inevitability if a hard border returns as it will, if there is a full Brexit. The EU could never agree to a deal – and would be signing its own death warrant if it did – in which the customs union and the single market have a large unguarded hole in their tariff and regulatory walls.

An essential point to grasp is that the British government does not physically control the territory, mostly populated by nationalists, through which the border runs. It could only reassert that control by force which would mean a return to the situation during the Troubles, between 1968 and 1998, when many of the 270 public roads crossing the border were blocked by obstacles or cratered with explosives by the British Army. Even then British soldiers could only move through places like South Armagh using helicopters.

The focus for the security forces in Northern Ireland is on dissident Republican groups that never accepted the Good Friday Agreement. These have failed to gain traction inside the Roman Catholic/nationalist community which has no desire to go back to war and give up the very real advantages that it has drawn from the long peace.

But that peace could slip away without anybody wanting it to go because Brexit, as conceived by the European Research Group and as delineated by Theresa May’s red lines, is a torpedo aimed directly at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement. This meant that those who saw themselves as Irish (essentially the Catholics) and those who saw themselves as British (the Protestants) could live peacefully in the same place. Moreover, the agreement established and institutionalised a complicated balance of power between the two communities in which the Irish government and the EU played a central role.

Yet ever since the general election of 2017, when May became dependent on the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), it is the DUP – the party of Ian Paisley – that has been treated by politicians and media in Britain as if they were the sole representatives of the 1.9 million people living in Northern Ireland. Its MPs are seldom asked by interviewers to justify their support for the UK leaving the EU when Northern Ireland voted for Remain in the referendum by 56 per cent to 44 per cent.

In ignoring the nationalist community in Northern Ireland, the British government is committing the same costly mistake it committed in the 50 years before 1968 which led to the fiercest guerrilla conflict in western Europe since the Second World War. The nationalist community today has a lot more to lose than it did half a century ago. It is no longer subject to sectarian discrimination in the way it used to be, as well as being highly educated and economically dynamic, but this does not mean that it can be taken for granted.

It may also be that the majority of the Northern Ireland population in two years’ time, when the Brexit transition period might be coming to an end, will no longer be Protestant and unionist but Catholic and nationalist. In the last census in 2011 Protestants were 48 per cent of the population and Catholics 45 per cent. The Protestants are not only a declining proportion of the population, but an increasingly ageing one, figures from 2016 showing that Catholics are 44 per cent of the working population and Protestants 40 per cent. Significantly, Catholics make up 51 per cent of school children in Northern Ireland and Protestants only 37 per cent.

The Protestants are a community on the retreat, but many have argued that this does not make much political difference because it is a mistake to imagine that all Catholics wanted a united Ireland. Many felt that they were better off where they were with a free NHS and an annual UK subsidy of £11bn.

But Brexit has changed this calculation. With Ireland and the UK members of the EU, religious and national loyalties were blurred. Many Protestants, particularly middle class ones, voted Remain in the referendum, but the vote was still essentially along sectarian lines. “You would not find many nationalists post-Brexit who would not vote for a united Ireland in a new border poll whatever they thought before,” said one commentator, though the likelihood is that if there were to be such a poll there would still be a slim majority favouring the union with Great Britain.

If May’s deal with the EU is finally agreed by the House of Commons then the issue of a hard border will be postponed. Any return to it would put Northern Ireland back on the road to crisis and violence. Stupid, stupid, stupid English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:08 AM

Stupid, stupid, stupid English.
Idiot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:34 AM

Yawn. Takes one to know one Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:56 AM

I read Cockburn's article some time ago.

At least he uses the word 'protestant' rather than 'prod', like Jim.

His comment that "the Protestants are a community on the retreat" made me post here that it looked as if we could expect an influx of immigration from Ireland, but that was greeted with the usual barrage of insult and invective from our resident nationalist. Because where else are they going to retreat to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

"At least he uses the word 'protestant' rather than 'prod', like Jim. "
Prod is how they have always described themselves in my being in their company for most of my youth - an abbreviation far superiour to Taiges or Papists

"Yawn. Takes one to know one Jim."
This particular one is to stupid to be able to recognise his own reflection - for instance - "Stupid, stupid, stupid English."
He's started abusing the newspapers now - that's how the article ends
Insecurity rules OK
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

This particular one is to stupid to be able to recognise his own reflection - for instance - "Stupid, stupid, stupid English."
He's started abusing the newspapers now - that's how the article ends


If you post a link it is assumed you are aware of, and take responsibility, for the content.

You have deeply insulted an entire country and are trying to weasel out of it by claiming it was a newspaper.

You are the one repeatedly claiming to insult no one.

'Pon my soul, you are quite the little jestor?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM

If you can only dismiss articles without argument and mindlessly rely on a right wing maksded blogger you need toi sort yourself out in a hurry
People who regard insulting the establishment as insulting a nation . then describe the Prime Minister as a traitor are schizophrenics
Likewise, people who constantly points to a 4% majority as definitive and a 5 plus one as "only a small majority" need to do something about their understanding of mathematics
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:10 AM

If you can only dismiss articles without argument and mindlessly rely on a right wing maksded blogger you need toi sort yourself out in a hurry
People who regard insulting the establishment as insulting a nation . then describe the Prime Minister as a traitor are schizophrenics


Has anyone else managed to penetrate the above cranium. I think it must be made of neutronium! The same behaviour is exhibited on thread after thread.

I suggest you calm down and proofread before you post, otherwise you portray yourself as both illiterate and stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM

"I suggest you...proofread before you post..."

But previously:

"Linekar "

"jestor"

???????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

Oops! That should have been "Linekar" without the rogue space...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM

Is the ex teacher get bored or merely boring?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

Steve
I read Baccy's brilliant analysis of people like this guy - I suggest you do if you want to keep these threads alive
It makes sense
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:45 AM

"I suggest you...proofread before you post..."

Then:

"Is the ex teacher get bored...?"

Sorry, Jim, but there are times...   :-) :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:18 PM

"Sorry, Jim, but there are times...   :-) :-) :-)"
I know Steve - I know
Just keep repeating

The AA serenity prayer:
"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed,... ...courage to change the things which should be changed,... ...and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM

I know, Jim, but last time I called them out my car was fixed within the hour. I felt very serene.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

Were you breathalyzed ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:55 PM

Nah. I was in Holsworthy Waitrose car park and the sun was well above the yardarm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

Waitrose stopped selling booze then ?
Their car park was always good place to get jarred before the pubs opened
You need to read my autobiography - Memoirs of a Reformed Shopaholic
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:41 PM

Heheh. Trouble is, Jim, I had me ninety-year-old mum on board (she loved every bloody minute of the mini-drama) and despite the breakdown (dead alternator fer chrissake), I had to get her back to the care home somehow. However, I did have six bottles of the £4.99 Spanish Mellow and Fruity on board, and I can assure you that I attacked them with aplomb once home....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM

Just for information, as well as the recnt IRA parcel bombs, (they think they have found the last one now) 7 members of the UVF were arrested in Northern Ireland early on Friday morning.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/22/arrested-belfast-inquiry-uvf-east-belfast-ulster-volunteer-force

I forgot to list drug running alongside the knee-capping, tarring and feathering .......

The time for Jim to talk of a 'return' to violence on the island of Ireland would come if and when the violence had stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:09 AM

Better titles for Jim's autobiography anybody?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Trying to whip together a lynch mob Karen ?
Good luck with that one
You'll have to pull the rope while Iains holds the feet
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

It is only the scouser plastic paddy seems to revel in a return to violence.
Rational people regard terrorism with abhorrence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:28 PM

PLASTIC PADDY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM

The particular version linked to above is the one banned when the allies defeated Nazi Germany. Is little jimmie claiming to be a Nazi?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:35 AM

Is this link to the German anthem a reference to IRA/Irish collaboration with the Nazis during W W II?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-28191501


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:56 AM

"Is this link to the German anthem a reference to IRA/Irish collaboration with the Nazis during W W II?"
Wheer thy decided "my enemies enemies are my friends, do you mean ?
Ireland used Germany in both wars to gain freedom from Britain - I see nothing wrong with that as long as they did not co-operate with what Germany was doing - which they most decidedly tdid not
Despite Ieland's neutrality, they conitinued to assist British pilots and british fighter planes infringed in Irish air space without hindrance
As far as the progressive Irish were concerned, there was little to choose between Nazi right wing philosophy and that of the British which had oppressed Ireland for eight centuries.
This was borne out by the fact that the British establishment was wquite happy to turn its back on the Nazis - to quote "New Germany will act as a bulwark against the threat of Bolshevism"
Ireland drew support from Germany while the short time KIng of England wast teaching his nephews and neices to give the Nazi Salute, The English Daily Mail was promoting Moseley;s Blackshirts as Britain's hope for the future and the Cabinet were licking "Herr Hitler's" arse
My old man went off to fight fascim in Spain - when he returned, he was given an MI5 record as a 'premature anti fascist' and was blacklisted from getting a job in his home town

Your anti-Irish slip is showing again Karen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

By the way; when news of the Holocaust filteresd though to Britain, a group of British Tory M.P.s were overheard passing it off as "The lies of whingeing Yids"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

None of which explains why you linked yourself to a banned version of the German National Anthem. We await an explanation!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

More offensive remarks from Jim. Yawn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:14 AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/ireland-and-the-nazis-a-troubled-history-1.3076579


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:20 AM

"More offensive remarks from Jim. Yawn."
More anti-Irish racism from Karen - shame

"We await an explanation!"
Who's we ?
You and Karen are on your own
The mods have decided to tolerate your contant racist abuse so all we can do is continually point out how eveil people who behave as you do really are - not that it needs pomnting out
Until the jackboots come crashing through our doors you will remain the minority you should be
Hopefully history has ascertained that that will never happen
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

The only one boasting about jackboots as his signature toon is little jimmie!

TO associate me with jackboots is simply you being your usual insulting self. Is there any thread you do not infect? I will ask again: Why do you link yourself to a banned verse of the German National Anthem?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1232190/Pete-Doherty-faces-prosecution-singing-banned-Nazi-verse-German-national-a


Are you going to give a sensible answer or just ignore it and go off on another unfocused rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

As with everybody else Iains, I have no intention of answering anything you ask - you're obviously not bright enough to have noticed
As far as 'Deutschland' is s concerned, was a comment on your own political stance - fascinating that you should have such knowledge of its history though - must come with the members manual
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:53 AM

He certainly has a jackboot fetish.

Your link explains a lot Karen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:05 AM

"He certainly has a jackboot fetish. "
Not a fetish Boba, a fear
I was alive when jackboot politics such as yours and the regime's you support sent six million human beings to their deaths
As a Holocaust survivor onec otl nme - never again, not to anybody (not even the Irish!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:08 AM

As with everybody else Iains, I have no intention of answering anything you ask

So you only infest mudcat to rant rave and insult all who disagree with you. What a sad old man!


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

Of course, had there been anti-Semitism in Dublin it would of course have been mentioned in the works of James Joyce.

Get your filthy eyes of my underwear, perv.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

He will have to be known henceforward as jack boot jimmie from liverpool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:38 AM

I was alive when jackboot politics such as yours.....

You know nothing about my "politics". What you think you know is nothing but you projecting through your distorted and racist lens. Give your obsession a rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:03 AM

"You know nothing about my "politics""
You are a supporter of an extrmist right wing Israeli regime that is in the process of ethnically cleannsing its country of Muslims - that tells me everything I need to know about your politics
Despite your accusing every critic of Israeli policies as a "Jew hater", you refuse to comment on the collusion between that regime and extremist right wing antisemitic organisations such as that of Orban
You stayed silent when that regime proclaimed that that regime decided to name its new railway station after Trump - an arch misogynist and racist who is drawing support from Americas Antisemires such as the Klan
You personally have put up the largest posing in this forum's history which was nothing more an Arab-hating diatribe
You have now joined your two comrades in arms in attacking the Irish people
Is there anything more I nee to know
You can place your accusations of "racism" alongside those of "antisemitism" - if you can produce one single scrap of proof of either, I will make a generous donation to any charity you care to name
I've waited several years for claims - I really am in no hurry

Karen
There are Antisemites everywhere - the British establishment has always been riddled with them
They are on the increase, thanks to the Israeli policy of hiding behind the Jewish people to escape the consequences of its crimes against humanity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

Like I said, all you think you know is simply you projecting through your racist lens as you have amply demonstrated. Give your obsession a rest, you give yourself away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM

I support the Jewish peoples' right to a state in their ancestral homeland and I support their right to defend themselves against those sworn to their annihilation. Pity you don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM

He has outed himself as a supporter of jackboots. Nothing he says now would surprise me. Do you think he has a uniform as well?
        Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:28 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:45 AM

Despite your accusing every critic of Israeli policies as a "Jew hater"


User Name         Thread Name         Subject         Posted
[PM] Jim Carroll         BS: Palestine (657* d)         RE: BS: Palestine         23 Oct 11

I have claimed that there are comparisons ("echoes" is the word I used) to be drawn between the behaviour of the Nazis towards the Jews, and that of the Israelis towards the Palestinians

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:31 AM

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That is a politically manipulated 'definition' that has bneed rawn up to defend Israel
The Israelis themselves continue to breach it (as you have by ignoring the last clause whichh clearly states that "It is antisemitic to associate the actions of the Israeli State with The Jewish People as a whole"
Israell and its supporters do this every time they accuse critics of Israeli Policy of antisemitism
They even breach it by accusing Jews of being "self haters" for criticising the policies of the Israeli regime
This deliberate use of the Jewish People as a human shield against International Prosecution is as antisemitic as you can possibly get
One of the greatest crimes against the Jewish People has been to make the charge of "antisemitism" totally meaningless and indistinguishable from real Jew Hating
That is what you and yours are defending
At least Iains and his lady fried have come out in the open over their hatred of the Irish - you refuse to acknowledge your own
Come back when you dind I ahve denigrated the Jewish People
If you made the same offer as I have, The Clare Cancer Society would not know what to do with your "generous donations"

By te way - exactly the same statement you have quoted was made by one of the six ex-heads of the Israeli Security Service, Mossad buring the making of the documentary 'The Gatekeepers"
Maybe the Israeli Regime is nor employing antisemites to defend Israel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

That is a politically manipulated 'definition' that has bneed rawn up to defend Israel

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:17 AM

"I rest my case."
No case - a retreat
The standard defintion of antiisemitism is "hatred ot the Jewish People"
You will never have a "case" until you explain why the Israeli regime is co-operating with the very type of people who sent six million Jews to their deaths in the Nazi Death Camps
You have no interest in the Jewish People, many of whom are as appalled as the rest of us at the damage done to them by an extremely right wing regime claiming to act on their behalf
Your interest is in supporting an exctermist right wing policy - period
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

Jim's Post was from 2011. The IHRA "definition" (nicked from a defunct and discarded definition from the EUMC in 2005) wasn't adopted until 2016. It may interest you to know that the original EUMC definition was drawn up by a panel consisting almost exclusively of representatives of pro-Israel lobby groups, one of the reasons it was quietly dropped (never adopted, in fact) by the EU as it was politically toxic. Over the years here I've done this to death several times, so if you don't believe me look it up.

Apropos of criticising the behaviour of the Israeli regime, my view is that equating it with that of the Nazis is made without regard for outcome. In other words, don't do it. Repressive regimes will always show attributes similar to what went on in Nazi Germany, but pointing to them in Israel's case isn't constructive however appropriate you think the comparison is. Aspects of the apartheid regimes in South Africa were definitely similar to what the Nazis got up to and aspects of the Israeli regime's behaviour towards Gazans are definitely comparable to apartheid. You don't get a free pass just by calling yourself a Jewish state. And if you're talking just about Israel you're not obliged to mention similar bad behaviour by other countries at the same time. You might have done that last week or be about to do it next week when you're talking about those countries. Maybe we do need a definition. Sorry, but that definition stinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

You have now joined your two comrades in arms in attacking the Irish people.

At least Iains and his lady fried have come out in the open over their hatred of the Irish - you refuse to acknowledge your own


Where would that hatred be jackboot jimmie? Lets be having chapter and verse.
The plastic paddy is being deeply insulting so I think we can demand he explains himself. Or is he going to weasel away in the undergrowth as he usually does when challenged. What a thoroughly nasty piece of work he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:16 PM

Bogtrotters and Paddy of any sort is deeplty insulting especially when delivered ny a support of scum like Tommy Robinson
Are you really so stupid as to attempt to deny racism using racist language ?
Is Sunday village idiot's day out where you are ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:47 PM

Why would anyone voluntarily engage with Mudcat's two village idiots, bobod & Iaian?

Why, indeed? No one moderated this thread and it's off the rails due to the usual suspects and the usual spew of bile. This thread is closed.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 20 May 1:50 AM EDT

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