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Corbyns second referendum proposal

DMcG 09 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM
Raggytash 08 Mar 19 - 07:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Mar 19 - 07:27 AM
DMcG 08 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM
Raggytash 08 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM
Raggytash 08 Mar 19 - 07:00 AM
David Carter (UK) 08 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM
Raggytash 08 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM
Raggytash 08 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM
David Carter (UK) 08 Mar 19 - 06:28 AM
DMcG 08 Mar 19 - 06:13 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Mar 19 - 05:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM
Iains 08 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM
DMcG 08 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Mar 19 - 05:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Mar 19 - 08:59 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 04:19 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 04:09 AM
Iains 07 Mar 19 - 03:55 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM
DMcG 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 08:03 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 07:41 PM
robomatic 06 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 06:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 10:12 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM
Iains 06 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM

It seems Labour want to drop the amendment in favour of a second referendum from Tuesday's vote, but bring it into the promised ones or Wednesday or Thursday.

All paths are difficult, but given that those votes are not on the weekly agenda and Teresa May has form for pulling votes, it seems particularly risky to me.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:58 AM

Don't be silly, Raggy. Talk about the industry, capital and jobs moving from the UK is just project fear. It will never happen and all will be fine when the unicorns arrive.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:34 AM

Well three times I have been told I was face redundancy and guess what ............... three times I was made redundant.

However this is just your little side show. Anything to say about any of the car industry or the insurance, banking and finance industries moving thousands of jobs (and revenue) away from the UK?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:27 AM

Yes, If someone is made redundant they are out of work. Well stated, and accurate.
If someone may be faced with redundancy, they are currently in work, with two possibilities, either their employment will continue, or they will be made redundant. You seem to equate "may be faced with redundancy" as meaning "will lose their job".
It is not only the Brexit team which relies on lies.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Some people seem to trust management-speak more than others.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

For ***** sake Nigel, if someone is made redundant they will be out of work.

In 63 years I have never heard anyone say any different, apart from yourself that is.

The only thing you are trying to do is NOT talk about Brexit as I suspect you already realise is going to be a monumental cock-up with dire repercussions for the UK.

You cannot face that fact and seek to divert attention away from it. This I suspect is the reason you NEVER respond to the issues raised but nit-pick on trivia instead.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM

Either way you're out of work Nigel.

You must just understand English differently. If, to you, "you may face redundancy as a last resort" means the same as "you're out of work.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 07:00 AM

Either way you're out of work Nigel.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

Raggy, they are in Reading at the moment and thats not cheap.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM
Face redundancy or lose your job means the same to most people Nigel. The only difference being (again for most people) is that with redundancy you may get a few bob.

'Face redundancy' may, possibly, be described as 'lose your job'. But I believe that (lose your job) would be better as a translation of 'suffer redundancy'.
However, neither matches the quote I took from the Guardian article which you linked: but they have also been told they may face redundancy as a "last resort"

So rather than nit-picking, I am pointing out that you are falsely reporting on what you have read.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

David, I know the chance to live in Ireland may be a tempter, however living in Dublin is VERY expensive, particularly housing costs. Now I don't know what level of recompense these workers may being receiving but it would have to be fairly substantial to warrant living in Dublin.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM

Face redundancy or lose your job means the same to most people Nigel. The only difference being (again for most people) is that with redundancy you may get a few bob.

Either way you have no job.

Sorry you are nit-picking once again.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:28 AM

If my employer offered me the chance to relocate to Ireland I would take it in a flash. Sadly my Irish ancestry is two generations too far back to qualify for citizenship, but taken at face value the Primark offer would give their staff a fabulous opportunity to take the job, and work towards residency and eventually citizenship.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:13 AM

Yes, the Primark statement did refer to the post on the Brexit thread: the post really considers both threads and I was undecided which to post to.

And indeed being told you are at risk of losing your job, which is what facing redundancy means, is not as bad as actually losing it. But in my opinion we will soon find out they were the same. I could of course be wrong.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:51 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM
The Primark case is a bit different, though. That is the first I am aware of where the choice of "move to the EU or lose your job" has been quite so starkly presented.


If this relates to the link by Raggytash in the Brexit discussion, what he actually said was: Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy.
"face redundancy" is not quite as stark as your comment "lose your job".
In turn, the comment Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy. is more stark than what the Guardian actually said: Reading-based staff have been offered the chance to relocate to Ireland in a reorganisation intended to help the company’s push for international expansion, but they have also been told they may face redundancy as a “last resort” if they do not. although the headline to the story is more in line with Raggytash's comment.

It's like Chinese whispers. The further you are from the original message, the more that message changes.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

Very true.

The thing is about Ireland. is their dislike of each other stronger than their desire to stay in Europe? You can't always get exactly what you want. Sometimes you have to choose.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

A result of a Poll in Northern Ireland has found that 67% of teh population are dissatified with the UK's behavior, 67% are opposed to te DUPs handling of Brexit and 67% wish to remain in Europe
So the Britis Government is now relying on a party that does not have the support of the Northern Irish people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Just because you don't see blue bits in my posts doesn't mean I'm opposed to links. It's just that I can't work out how to get something from a newspaper to turn blue. I might refer to a headline then quote a section from the article to reinforce a point. But life is short, and I won't open unsupported links. And I won't open links to the Staines blog. Been there, done it, thrown away the shit-stained t-shirt. It can tell me nothing I can't find better expressed elsewhere and I can't stand the Daily-Mail-with-testicles perspective. Persistent resort by an individual to that website tells me nothing useful about politics but it tells me a lot about the person pretending to be a serious contributor here who appears to waste his life and pollute his brain reading it.

Half of me feels that all the gathering clouds around brexit - the gloomy predictions about the economy, the threats from the car industry, Primark, visas, driving permits, expensive euros, rekindling of conflict on the Irish border, motorways turning into lorry parks, essential workers from the EU leaving the country, add your own snippets of doom - would lead to a remain vote in another referendum. But the other half of me suspects that a new referendum leave campaign would at least as dishonest as the last one, with resort to populist lies about the denial of democracy and the will of the people and blaming the bullying EU and leftie remoaners for not giving us everything we want, etc., and would be just as effective as the last one. Referendums totally suck and have nothing to do with democracy, but there may be no other way out of this.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:06 AM

When liks are usually from one source from a blogger as they are with one poster, you realise that they don't contain information, just propaganda
When the same poster passes off anything he doesn't agree with as 'fake news' or 'leftie shit' you realise that such an attitude is best ignored - yo may as well go talk to Shirley valentine's Wall
Those who accuse people of offering no support to their claims yet behave in the way I've described offer nothing to any intelligent discussion - "Trolling" is a pretty faitr description of such behaviour (stand by for a display of what I mean0
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:24 AM

Links provide a way of determining whether statements made are fact, fiction, or whimsy. Generally multiple sources can be found on the internet to enable independent verification. Posting links is merely a helpful way of pointing people in the right direction and giving a rapid
determination of where the truth may likely lie.
   Any statement made that is the least bit contentious should be given supporting links. If a person cannot be bothered to offer support for their statements/conclusions, then why should we bother reading them?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:51 AM

I post a lot of links with little or no comment, though most of the time the few words I add do give my opinion. I don't think that is entirely a waste of time, because having some record of what happened has a value in its own right.

I think my opinion on how things are going is fairly well understood by everyone here so I don't see I need to restate it very often. If some issue is 'more of the same' I won't bother to comment.

The Primark case is a bit different, though. That is the first I am aware of where the choice of "move to the EU or lose your job" has been quite so starkly presented.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 PM

"wouldn't it be great if we stopped cutting and pasting contentious things and just passed on our own thoughts without outrage at each other."

Errrmm...I did, in my last post.

The problem here is that there are a few Right-Wing Extremist Trolls whose entire purpose is to cause outrage. Some of us are ignoring them, but others don't have that self-Control, and insist on feeding the Trolls.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:08 PM

I heartily ageee with that, Al. I've been castigated here for being bloody useless at doing links but I care not a jot. I'm on here to bloody well tell y'all wot I think. Links and all that can be useful in triggering debate about the point you're trying to make. But links without a statement of your point are useless. We get a lot of that here and it's a bit depressing.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

wouldn't it be great if we stopped cutting and pasting contentious things and just passed on our own thoughts without outrage at each other.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM

Followed by greedy, reckless bankers who ran their organisations into financial ruin, which the then Labour government was obliged to bail out to the tune of, IIRC, £800 billion.

The Tory liars are still trying to blame the last Labour government, carefully ignoring the destruction wrought by their very own pin-up girl, The Beast of Grantham, and their profligate buddies in the financial sector.

Disgraceful dishonesty.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:59 AM

Actually it was Thatcher who wrecked public infrastructure, that is the source of all of the problems. By wasting money on tax cuts and not investing in the future of the country.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

More problems for st Jeremy of the allotment:
Equalities and Human Rights Commission launches probe on claims Labour is 'institutionally antisemitic'

Better late than never doncha think?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM

Let's face it - knife crime would still not be the issue it has become with the government if a leading policewoman hadn't embarrassed them by pointing out the damage that police cuts have done to Britain's security - from street criminality to terrorist attacks


From Labours watch:7:00AM GMT 24 Feb 2009
Thousands of police officers are to lose their jobs, despite the prospect of increased crime levels during the recession.

Chris Grayling, the Shadow Home Secretary, said: "This has to be the final nail in the coffin of Tony Blair's promise that Labour would be tough on crime. We already have many violent crimes rocketing and crimes like burglaries on the rise again. Because Gordon Brown has wrecked public finances we are going to have fewer police on our streets."


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

KNIFE CRIME - THE BREXIT CONNECTION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM

Let's face it - knife crime would still not be the issue it has become with the government if a leading policewoman hadn't embarrassed them by pointing out the damage that police cuts have done to Britain's security - from street criminality to terrorist attacks
TESSIE THE MAYFLIE'S THEME SONG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM

Let's face it - knife crime would still not be the issue it has become with the government if a leading policewoman hadn't embarrassed them by pointing out the damage that police cuts have done to Britain's security - from street criminality to terrorist attacks
TESSIE THE MAYFLIE'S THEME SONG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM

But no more than, presumably. Well, that make a nice change from your usual fount-of-all-wisdom, hail-the-all-knowing stance with Guido.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM

As reliable as any media.

A contemporary folksong to explain it all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM

Good try, Iains, but that is not addressing whether that specific Guido claim is reliable.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM

I think the Hansard underlines your point perfectly David, masked fetishistic criminal entry Staines totally distorted Labour's position by leaving out what actually was said - that the Government position was a penny-pinching measure to give the appearance that something ws being done when they were actually playing to the gallery   
The fact that that it is now five years since this affair was discussed and the same Tory Government has now been forced to take emergency measures to combat steadily rising knife crime is a spot-on indication that the bill was little more than a sop in he first place
Wonder how many deaths have occurred since then and how many more there would have been if the Tories hadn't needed something to show that they weren't the incompetent clowns Brexit has exposed them as being ?
These people are beyond belief
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:19 AM

DMcG I suspect Corbyn just saw it as an opening to knock the government.
He does not exactly hold any records for being consistent. He would even pose a challenge for the Met office to keep up, and they are past masters at dealing with changeability.
Whatever his motivation was back then we can be sure it has swung back and forth repeatedly ever since.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:09 AM

I don't know how often I have recommended people go back to the source material where they can - Hansard in this case - and make up their own mind, rather than rely on Guido or the Guardian.

I assume you have done so, then, and you have decided that the reason Corbyn voted against it was because it looked tough (which I interpret as making the government look tough), and nothing to do with whether it was effective or not?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:55 AM

Hansard

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-06-17/debates/14061751000001/CriminalJusticeAndCourtsBill?highlight=%22looks%20tough%

Make up your own mind.


You will be trying to tell me next that the guardian reports all news factually with zero spin. Is any media free of a degree of bias? of course not!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Thats actually typical for a right wing blogger, use Corbyn's words, but not all of them and not necessarily in the right order. But what can you expect from a serial drink driver and bankrupt?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM

Corbyn said he would vote against the measure because it “looks tough”.

An absolute classic from Guido to demonstrate why he is such an unreliable source. You can find the speech in Hansard and Corbyn was saying he wanted actions that were effective, not just ones that looked tough but where there was no evidence they worked. Is that the sense of the speech you get from the Guido spin?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:03 PM

Don't fink so! The laddie is full time employed itemising labour's nonsense:
Like this gem concerning the abbacus:
At least voters know exactly who belongs to Labour's leftwing Campaign Group, even if they risk being airbrushed from public appearances during an election campaign. Diane Abbott may be a model of loyalty to the party leadership during the next month, but many of her electors might like to be reminded that she once co-authored a paper that suggested: "We are not interested in reforming ... the police, armed services, judiciary and monarchy. We are about dismantling them and replacing them with our own machinery of class rule."
or
Back in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell both voted against changing the law so anyone caught carrying a knife for a second time would face a custodial sentence. Corbyn said he would vote against the measure because it “looks tough”.
or
Just last month, Corbyn’s Labour Party voted against several measures that would have helped to combat the rising knife crime crisis. In the Lords, Labour voted against the introduction of Knife Crime Prevention Orders, which are designed to place curbs on those who routinely carry knives, and prevent gang escalation. In the Commons, they voted against an extra £970 million being made available to the police. Not a single Labour MP voted in favour…

The comments section is awash with priceless quotes!
suchas
It could be worse - she could be Shadow Chancellor.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:41 PM

GUIDO's DAY JOB


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

I'm having a flashback to the Simpsons episode where Homer recovers from his hangover with a memory of being the wit of the party. His memories envisage him at the Algonquin Room roundtable having spawned universal laughter with a plastic icecube with a bug in it.

Now there's your repar-damn-tay!


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:08 PM

But Oscar Wilde was educated at Dublin University and Magdalen College Oxford. He was probably as intelligent as Enoch Powell.(who became a professor of ancient Greek at the age of 25)


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 10:12 AM

You never get repartee like that in Oscar Wilde....


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM

"I'd not seen it with an 'S' on the end. Or is that making a point of some kind?"
Stands for shitbag
Jim


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

I think I'll pass on that one Iains. I find politics very confusing these days anyway.

Incidentally , is that your name - I'd not seen it with an 'S' on the end. Or is that making a point of some kind?


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

"verging on libel."
Said the feller who regularly accuses his opponents of being mental deficiants
Doncha just love it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:23 AM

convicted He's an extremist right-wing criminal blogger who has apparently managed to plant one of his employees on this forum (no prizes...)
Probably a hermaphrodite - certainly into dressing-up and 'let's-pretend' games - someone you guard your children against

What is little jimmy hinting at here I wonder. Too much of a coward to say it outright.

Be very careful jimmy. you are verging on libel.


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Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

The normal diversionary tactics of the usual crowd. Attack the messenger, not the message.
Here is an up to the minute release:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/06/momentum-fined-electoral-commission-multiple-breaches-electoral-law/

and to prove it has substance:

https://news.sky.com/story/momentum-fined-for-multiple-breaches-of-electoral-law-11656570

A rare type of advice coming from me, Al, but the best thing to do about that particular degenerate and disreputable far-right blogger is to keep yourself ignorant. One little peek at his arrant nonsense would convince anyone of sound mind that it's good advice.

Degenerate? Despicable? but sadly for the Shaws of this world, undoubtedly accurate!


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