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BS: The Independent Group (UK politics)

Mr Red 22 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 19 - 07:32 PM
keberoxu 21 Feb 19 - 07:20 PM
Acorn4 21 Feb 19 - 07:15 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Feb 19 - 06:20 PM
Iains 21 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM
Iains 21 Feb 19 - 12:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM
Iains 21 Feb 19 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM
Mr Red 21 Feb 19 - 09:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 19 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM
David Carter (UK) 21 Feb 19 - 05:35 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 05:16 AM
David Carter (UK) 21 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM
bobad 20 Feb 19 - 08:57 PM
Mossback 20 Feb 19 - 08:31 PM
Iains 20 Feb 19 - 02:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Feb 19 - 01:55 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM
DMcG 20 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Feb 19 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 10:44 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 10:31 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 19 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 08:25 AM
Iains 20 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 07:15 AM
Mr Red 20 Feb 19 - 07:08 AM
Iains 20 Feb 19 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM
David Carter (UK) 20 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 19 - 05:26 AM
banjoman 20 Feb 19 - 05:14 AM
Mr Red 20 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM
Iains 20 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Feb 19 - 02:20 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Feb 19 - 04:11 PM
Mrrzy 19 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 Feb 19 - 02:08 PM
peteaberdeen 19 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM
Iains 19 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: The Independent Group (UK politics)
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

Yea but independent morons


cf


slavish morons


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independent Group (UK politics)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:32 PM

Nah, Acorn. Just morons.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independent Group (UK politics)
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:20 PM

thank you, O mighty mud-elf,
for correcting the thread title spelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independent Group (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:15 PM

Isn't a group of "Independents" an oxymoron?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independent Group (UK politics)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:20 PM

Well one fairly inconvenient fact about this latest Tory expenses cheat is that he did it a good number of years after the major outrage of 2011. One might have thought that the scandal had been cleared up, but here we have another self-entitled Tory trying it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Pfr I prefer to go where the facts lead me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM

Dunno why you are bothering to defend the tories against recognition of being dodgy fraudsters...

You should be celebrating something they are actually better at than any other UK party...!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:36 PM

Pfr no party covers itself in glory when it comes to their elected or non elected representatives and their behaviour with public funds.
From your favourite source guido:


https://order-order.com/2019/02/21/disgraced-debens-dodgy-drax-dealings/

On another level there is dispute over just how green the power is.
The coal once came out of the ground next door. Biomass is imported from the States.


https://www.pellet.org/wpac-news/drax-fires-up-biomass-power?jjj=1550770317475


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM

Iains - well... It's no surprise the Tories are much better at it, and getting away with it.
Cuz they've been doing it far longer, know/invented all the tricks;
and more importantly, have the old school tie network to rely on to help cover up and escape detection and punishment...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:52 AM

Three Labour MPs who cheated their expenses ordered to pay huge £125,000 bill to cover cost of legal aid and prosecution. Three former Labour MPs who were sent to jail for falsely claiming expenses have been ordered to repay a total of £125,000 in legal fees.Dec 15, 2011

A Tory peccadillo?

Anything Tories do labour does better (in this instance)
Remember Labour have plenty of form for squandering other peoples money


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM

"I seem to recall that the 'expenses scandal' caught members of all the major parties in its trawl."
Yup certainly did - Tories of all parties
The line was somewhat blurred when Blair's Boys and Babes were at the helm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

btw.. bugger it.. I could have sworn I'd pasted the correct spelling for "peccadillo"...

[bloody annoying when quick first draft spullings slip through into to posts...]


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

"I seem to recall that the 'expenses scandal' caught members of all the major parties in its trawl"

now forgive me if my memory is a little hazy,
but it seems to me the post Michael Foot haste to yuppiefy the labour party
attracted too many ambitious suits and ties from the professional and business classes...
Including all the ex tory defectors fleeing like rats from a sinking ship to Blair's succsess...

..and of course many of them the kind's of folk who enjoyed fiddling expenses/white collar petty fraud as norm for their working culture...???

Of course, that's not to deny the that the grass roots working class core of the real original labour party
weren't too adverse to 'borrowing' the odd tool or boxes of nails and screws from their factories and building sites...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:58 AM

"She'll be missed"

Like the proverbial hole in the head....


Yea I hear you ..........................



with two, & pour a mind altering drug down another one** and in danger of looking down my nose revealing another two.

And I need all 5 holes in my head. Three let in live-giving oxygen that feeds the computation circuits that we call logic! Holes in the head would be sorely missed PAL! Try another metaphor?

**only ever apple preserved in alcohol - mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

for the good old fashioned traditional tory pecadilo of fiddling expenses...

I seem to recall that the 'expenses scandal' caught members of all the major parties in its trawl. So 'traditional tory peccadillo' is clearly based on a misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM

..plus the conservative MP for Brecon in Wales is now being investigated
for the good old fashioned traditional tory pecadilo of fiddling expenses...

fingers crossed he gets booted out...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:29 AM

Two Tory ex-Ministers have now threatened to resign and join the little band of brothers and sisters
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

Ah - got it. Sorry I did not spot that before. Thanks David.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:35 AM

DtG, there is a difference between their constitiuents' interests and their constituents' views. And it is the former that they must represent.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM

I'm with Dave on this, although I understand David's viewpoint and have some sympathy with it. But I do believe that a sizeable majority at GEs vote for the party, not the individual candidate - many would vote for a centipede if it was standing for 'their' party - so the eleven should resign and stand as Independent candidates at a by-election.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:16 AM

I disagree, David. They were elected with party funds on a party manifesto so they should be subject to re-election if they then break their part of the contract. I would also point out that representing all their constituents interests is not possible. For instance, the split between leaving the EU or staying is almost 50/50. No one can represent the interests of both sides! They should be representing the best interests of the country in general.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:01 AM

MPs are elected as individuals to represent their constituents' interests. That the process has been hijacked by party machines is unfortunate. But as long as they are still voting for what they judge to be in their constituents' best interests, I don't think they should have to stand down.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM

Much as I disagree with the way all these MPs have approached this, it may have a beneficial effect. Any MP that resigns from the party should stand down and be subject to re-election by the people that put them there in the first place. However, it may cause the 2 major parties to re-think their approach to the rapidly approaching disaster that is brexit. If it happens that we either do not leave the EU or we get a better deal, I would personally like to shake their hands and offer them my condolences for them losing their seats. I doubt very much that any of them have done this for altruistic reasons but maybe them falling on their swords is what is needed.

I did like Anna Soubry's comments about a right wing minority now running the Tory party. Shows that it is not just us 'left wingers' who believe this and gives credence to the contention that politics has shifted greatly to the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 08:57 PM

Lower case if you please Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Mossback
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 08:31 PM

so obsessed with rooting out antisemiticism to denounce & fight back against that they could even find some if locked alone naked in an undecorated padded room...

May I present...(drumroll)............... BOBAD!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 02:04 PM

The Liverpool Echo is reporting that hard left firebrand Derek Hatton has been suspended from the Labour Party again – just two days after he was readmitted to the party after being banned for 34 years

Now you see him. Now you don't!

Brian Rix would be proud!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:55 PM

Sandman - he's anti semitic because some folks say he is... and what they say is indisputable fact...

.. and some of these folks are so obsessed with rooting out antisemiticism to denounce & fight back against
that they could even find some if locked alone naked in an undecorated padded room...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

I fail to see how Corbyn is anti semitic, The establishment are clearly very worried about Corbyn, smear after smear


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

I do have a concern that the three Conservatives are correct that the right wing of the party has full control. Forget Brexit if you can - that could be a serious issue next time they get a Parliamentary majority, which will happen eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:00 AM

"She'll be missed"

Like the proverbial hole in the head....


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:44 AM

Latest Labour resignation
Joan Marie Ryan
She was a government whip under Tony Blair from 2002 to 2006, a junior Home Office minister responsible for ID cards from 2006 to 2007, and the Prime Minister's Special Representative to Cyprus from 2007 to 2008, when she was sacked.
She lost her seat in the 2010 general election after an expenses scandal and was deputy campaign director of NOtoAV in the 2011 Alternative Vote referendum.
She was chair of the Labour Friends of Israel (LFI)

She'll be missed !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:31 AM

HERE
TIRED and EMOTIONAL MAYBE ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 09:05 AM

I note that one of the Labour ship-jumpers, Angela Smith, citing Labour's racism and institutional antisemitism, made a blatantly racist remark about skin colour in an interview. All over twitter it is. Heheh. Google "Angela Smith funny tinge." She thinks racism can be excused if you're "very, very tired."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 08:25 AM

Three Tories out - probably more on the way and a rapidly diminishing Tory voting majority for Brexit "What will become of old England" in the words of a real folk song (almost)
Mayfly will really have to reach deep in the taxpayers coffers - wonder which disreputable bunch of sharks and shysters she'll bung now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

Who cares. In the words of a FOLK SONG, 'yesterday's papers' telling yesterdays news!

Far more relevant:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/10/why-the-sickly-ugly-sisters-of-our-politics-deserve-to-suffer-the-splits


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:15 AM

WHERE ARE THEY NOW, ONE WONDERS ???
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:08 AM

and some of them have clung on to their party (& Brexshit) despite their constituency being pro-remain by quite a margin.

I live in one such. The outgoing MP was pro-remain!

Talk about complexity. All bets are off for a while.

When the blame game kicks-in, Brexshit will be the target. And no MP will be able to good-mouth it in any convincing way. They will lie, they always do. The public won't forget - well not within the 5 year tenancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:23 AM

Now Tories are defecting. Two party politics is fast fragmenting.

Gonna be a lot of homeless chickens come the next election.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM

Four of the group are active 'Friends of Israel' and one has business links with the regime - all are ex Blair's babes and boys
As far as Antisemitism is concerned, the safest way to approach the term is to restrict it to denigrating and persecuting the Jewish People
There are other aspects of the new definition that may become impossible to avoid without being labeled antisemitic
Already an army general and two ex Mossad heads have compared Israel's actions to those of The Nazis - as have many Holocaust survivors and their families
Albert Einstein and a dozen of his fellow scientists warned of the possible rise of Fascism in Israel nearly seventy years ago
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

I agree banjoman, there are some people, by no means all, but it does seem to include a couple of the MPs in this group, who would like to equate support for the Palestinian cause with antisemitism. To blame all Jews for the actions of Israel, that is antisemitism according to the IHRA definition and this I agree with, but the statements from Berger and Ryan go much further than this.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:26 AM

The common response of critics of Israel as "Antisemitic" is in fact an act of Antisemitism
The last clause of the new definition states clearly that it is antisemitic to link the actions of the Israeli Government with the Jewish People
Accusing critics of Israel of doing this does just that
Even the Israeli Minister of Justice has openly stated that critics of Israel are antisemites and described criticism of Israel as "The New Antisemitism"
Jews who criticise the regime are deprived of their Jewishness by being described as "self hating Jews" - some leading Israelis, including an Army General and several ex-directors of Mossad, the Israeli Security Service - are "self-hating Jews"
The term has been manipulated to protect extremist right wing politics - there's a term to define politicians who place their policies above the opinions of the people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: banjoman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:14 AM

I have asked this question in a previous thread but not had any response. "Anti Semitic" is a phrase being bandied about in respect of Corbyn but I ask, what is the difference between that and being opposed to the actions of the Israeli government? I feel that to those shouting about anti Semitism there is no difference. To me and many other party members, there blatantly is.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

exceptional!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

And another one bites the dust!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/corbyn-not-fit-to-be-prime-minister-eighth-labour-mp-has-quit-the-party-905467.

You could not make it up. Heh Heh!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 02:20 AM

An interesting POV from Craig Murray's Blog yesterday.

Inconvenient things, facts, aren't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:11 PM

Chuka Umunna and colleagues may have got their timing wrong, but their aims are laudable. The job of the opposition is to oppose, and particularly to oppose the Tories' destructive brexit agenda. Corbyn seems to have been seduced by the right wing agenda of Len McCluskey, and if he cannot come out and fight brexit with everything he has got, then he should make way for someone who can.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

Hey can we brexit with you guys?

-Virginia, especially Charlottesville


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:08 PM

How many more defectors do the Indies need asap to consider forming a mutual backscratching partnership with May,
and a possible coalition govt with the tories next election...???

Wonder what ministry Chukkles Ammonia has on top his wish list...???


Troublesome DUP might need to worry about finding themselves made redundant from propping up the tories,
and even more irrelevant in the greater scheme of things...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM

sadly, with the way our political system works - there is no room for a principled stand when voting in england. as a comrade put it to me in the pub just now - 'what is the matter with these (7) people - you are either red or blue these days' if you have been voted in by labour voters you have a duty to support labour and our manifesto. it's very simple - do these people really want 10 more years of a tory government? apparently...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Independant Group (UK politics)
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

Heh Heh!
https://news.sky.com/story/independent-group-third-most-popular-party-sky-data-poll-11642205

Jack Straw former Home Secretary says:
Corbyn is a security risk!




Oh Jeremy Corbyn.........


and now he has Hatton and Livingstone !
What could go right


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