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BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?

MikeL2 15 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM
Jos 15 Feb 19 - 01:33 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM
Iains 15 Feb 19 - 12:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 12:25 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 12:24 PM
Jos 15 Feb 19 - 12:12 PM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM
Rain Dog 15 Feb 19 - 10:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 10:38 AM
Dave Hanson 15 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM
Iains 15 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM
Mrrzy 15 Feb 19 - 08:05 AM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 07:53 AM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM
Workingtonman 15 Feb 19 - 07:43 AM
Senoufou 15 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:29 PM

hi

I.can see both sides of the discussion - I can see why some don't wish to see the 19 year old in this country. I would have difficulty in in deciding what would be best.

However, she is carrying a baby. this changes everything. The baby is not responsible for anything and we should try to provide it with as good a life as we can. My view is that it is wrong to separate a child from her mother. We should consider trying to find a solution where they are not split up.

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

Ah, thank you Jos.
It occurred to me that she hardly dares be seen to 'repent' while she's still in Syria. Even if she did return to UK, the fundamentalist Isis supporters might attack/target her for rejecting their cause.

She could also be seen by them as a risk, if she gave us information about terrorist activities etc. She'd be a 'marked woman'.

This might explain her cool, hard tone of 'not being fazed' by the severed heads etc. She's wary of reprisals and vengeance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:33 PM

Eliza, this is from the BBC news web page. It's all I know except that he is said to be a Dutch jihadi convert.

"She escaped from Baghuz - IS's last territory in eastern Syria - two weeks ago.

Her husband surrendered to a group of Syrian fighters as they left, and she is now one of 39,000 people in a camp in northern Syria."


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

"I don't think she should be treated better than people who have put their lives on the line for you and got injured physically and mentally."

Neither do I, Al. But can you point out to me where anyone on this thread is suggesting that she should be? The general consensus seems to be that she should be allowed to return, and then thoroughly investigated, de-briefed, de-radicalised (if that's possible), and subjected to due process of law - with a prison sentence the likely outcome. I don't really see that as being 'treated better than people who...yadda yadda'.

And I'm in absolute agreement with your abhorrence at the treatment of ex-servicemen and women who are unable to resume normal civilian life due to their physical or mental injuries. But that has little or nothing to do with a teenage girl who has almost certainly been psychologically damaged by the brainwashing techniques of IS and its supporters. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the unborn child she's carrying, who is completely innocent in all of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:53 PM

Actions have consequences. It is that simple. In what way is her behaviour different to Lord Haw Haw or Sir Roger Casement. They also supported our enemies. The important work Casement did to highlight colonial abuse, especially in the Congo, counted for nowt, he was still executed for high treason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

i can't see qualitatively a difference between her and a fifteen year old who , craving a more exciting life, decides to carry a knife around - and kills somebody.

except by and large - they tend to be working class kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:25 PM

Do you know what became of him Jos?
She's had so much trauma in her short life hasn't she?

I wonder if, at fifteen, she had a romantic idea of rushing off to Syria, offering herself to a dashing Isis husband, being part of a 'just cause' as idealistic youngsters often do. I bet the reality was absolutely dire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:24 PM

well maybe she would consent to live in your house Dave, seeing as you seem to have confidence in her future good behaviour, now that she is no longer a poor brainwashed victim.

but no, i don't think she should be treated better than people who have put their lives on the line for you and got injured physically and mentally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jos
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:12 PM

It seems her husband was captured by the Syrians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM

I've been looking at various forums/tabloids online, and the general consensus seems to be that she's odious, her attitude is execrable and she should be 'left to rot' etc.

Also comments about Muslims generally ('scum', 'evil' and so on).
These blanket condemnations aren't very helpful, and reflect a rather vicious mindset imho.

It doesn't look as if people are sympathetic or trying to raise funds for her. I don't think that would be appropriate anyway.

It's quite true that British Citizenship can be revoked only if someone has dual nationality. My husband was officially informed of this when he received his British Citizenship many years ago. He has Ivorian nationality too.
Isn't there an old saying, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" ?
It's better perhaps to have her under our aegis and monitored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM

Nota Bene - Humpty-Dumpty seems to be mouthing off about 'preventing' her from returning to the UK - he is not threatening to 'revoke her British Citizenship'.

'Preventing her return' seems to mean that there will not be a 'rescue mission' to bring her back to the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Yes Raindog, I know about that. But whilst the Act makes it possible to revoke British Citizenship for an individual who has dual nationality - British and another nationality, as in the case in the article - it is not possible to revoke British Citizenship where that is the only nationality held.

Jamima Begum was born in the UK and has only British Citizenship, under the British Citizenship Act 1981, it cannot be revoked, because to do so would render her 'Stateless'.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06820/SN06820.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:50 AM

Backwoodsman wrote:

"There's a petition going to have her British Citizenship revoked, but this goes directly contrary to the British Citizenship Act 1981 and, if the Act is changed in order to target one individual, I fear that the rights of the rest of us will be damaged.

She was born in the UK, and should be afforded the rights that that bestows on her, but she should be dealt with by the forces of law in respect of any offences she may have committed."

Things have indeed changed and may well change further. Interesting article in the Guardian last November by Kamila Shamsie

How can a government exile its citizens without a trial?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:38 AM

She is an adult now but remains unrepentant

She is brainwashed, Dave. She was an immature teen when she went. She has lived for years amongst extremists. She did make a bad choice in going there but once she was there she had no choice but to stay. She has suffered the most tragic loss anyone could ever imagine, the loss of a child. Not once but twice. I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say her unrepentance is not callousness but the result of something akin to shell shock.

I didn't know that the child's father was Dutch though so good point there. Is he still alive and living in Holland? If so, yes, let him help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

Sajid Javid has said he will do everything in his power to keep this person out of the UK.

She is an adult now but remains unrepentant, let her stay in that shithole country with her beloved friends.

The baby has a Dutch father, maybe they can go to the Netherlands.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

So because the extremists of IS executed people and brainwashed the young and because some British soldiers are not treated as well as they should be, are you suggesting that this young woman and her unborn baby should be thrown to the wolves?

That doesn't seem fair to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:27 AM

well just bear in mind, she will soon be a very rich young lady . The tabloids will be forming a disorderly queue to buy her tale of severed heads, etc.

when one considers the fate of IS victims and the number of ex British soldiers living on the streets.

it doesn't seem fair to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM

Her child is entitled to the best of care. Whether the mother should be allowed to be a parent is another matter. My feeling is she and her ilk pose a danger. She should be incarcerated at least until investigation is complete. In England and Wales and Northern Ireland the age of criminal responsibility is ten years. The only factor I would offer in her defense is that the UK government has been criminally negligent in its lack of action in pursuing and prosecuting those that radicalize young people.
    We hear much about the war on terror. In wartime those that pose a threat to the state are interned.
Why has this not happened?. If they pose a threat, lock them up!
In certain middle eastern countries tub thumping with a bible will have you jailed in an instant, yet we tolerate extremism in mosques.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:41 AM

Everyone makes mistakes, even as adults, and she was immature when she made her decision. I made some amazingly stupid decisions when I was 15. Luckily they did not affect anyone else too seriously.

Should she have the rest of her life ruined and should he unborn child be put at risk because of a poor choice when she was a rebellious teenager? I think not. Difficult for some to forgive and forget but maybe they can see their way to forgive and rehabilitate :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:05 AM

Had she left as an adult she could rot. But she was a kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:00 AM

Oh phew! Thank you Backwoodsman as well!

I'm trying to imagine just what this young person has gone through.
I expect she wasn't well-treated by the man/men who impregnated her.
She lost two babies, having watched them waste away from disease and lack of food. She's seen severed heads in bins and had to endure fierce indoctrination I expect, from bullying and violent Isis jihadis.

She must be absolutely traumatised, and is masking it with a cold, hard attitude of, "..not particularly fazed".

Let's hope she manages to reach the UK somehow, accepts help, medical support and monitoring, and can lead a better life with a happier future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:53 AM

Good post Pete - I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

Oh thank goodness pete! I was a bit worried that everyone would shriek "Leave her to rot!" etc.

I feel exactly as you do. While admitting she could be dangerous, it is more in line with our compassionate and civilised attitude to try and help her readjust her mental state, 'deradicalise' her and care for her baby.

Her unborn child is an innocent party in this, and should be looked after and monitored once born.

The trouble is, I also feel great sorrow for the victims of bombings here (Manchester Arena etc).

What a world we live in! But surely spitefulness, vengeance and hate towards this woman cannot be the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

For, I think, the first time ever, I'm in absolute agreement with Jacob "Call Me Jake" Rees-Mogg - she should be admitted to the UK, then thoroughly investigated and subjected to the due process of law. If that involves her being kept in detention during that time, so be it.

There's a petition going to have her British Citizenship revoked, but this goes directly contrary to the British Citizenship Act 1981 and, if the Act is changed in order to target one individual, I fear that the rights of the rest of us will be damaged.

She was born in the UK, and should be afforded the rights that that bestows on her, but she should be dealt with by the forces of law in respect of any offences she may have committed.

It's worth remembering too that she was fifteen when she absconded from the UK - still legally a child - and that must be taken into consideration when she is judged.

Finally, there is the question of her unborn child, who is completely innocent and who, by virtue of its mother's nationality, is entitled to British Citizenship when it is born. If for no other reason than that, it seems to me that she should be allowed to return so that her child receives the protection to which it is entitled.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Workingtonman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:43 AM

i've just heard on the radio that according to 'save the children' that 300 children die in conflict zones every day. there must be a real danger that this young woman's child will suffer the same fate as her other 2 children if she is not permitted to return to where she could deliver the baby safely. as for the mother, i feel she has been groomed, trafficked and horribly abused - our country should show her kindness and compassion and hope that she can recover. whether she would ever be able to care for her baby is another matter. i'd expect the state has a duty of care for the child.


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Subject: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:21 AM

Shamima Begum left the UK at the age of 15 to become a 'Jihadi bride' in Syria. She had two babies there, but the children died from malnutrition and illness.
She is now heavily pregnant and is asking to return to UK to have her baby in an NHS hospital.

In an interview she declared that the sight of severed heads in a rubbish bin (victims of executions) 'didn't faze her'.
She is now 19.

It's not permitted to revoke someone's citizenship if it renders them stateless. But she could be seen as posing an enormous threat to the security of UK, as she has obviously been radicalised and brainwashed, and has not been averse to terrorism.

There's a huge debate going on about this young woman and what if anything should be done about her.
I have mixed feelings, and can see both sides of the argument.
Anyone care to comment?


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