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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 05:36 PM
Vic Smith 18 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM
FreddyHeadey 18 Mar 19 - 04:42 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Mar 19 - 03:45 PM
Howard Jones 18 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM
The Sandman 18 Mar 19 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 18 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 11:31 AM
Vic Smith 18 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 10:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM
Vic Smith 18 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM
Howard Jones 18 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 08:40 AM
Vic Smith 18 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM
Howard Jones 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 18 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 17 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM
Vic Smith 17 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,im bainbridge 17 Mar 19 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 17 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM
Vic Smith 17 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM
GUEST 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:36 PM

Jim, much as I hate to say this, you are just holding hoops up and the more I jump, the higher you hold them. I am not jumping any more. I have applied your criteria to a song that I put forward as being in the folk idiom and it passed every single test. You are trying to get round that by applying further tests. IE it must sound like something else. Sorry, but I have followed your rules and proved that a song written by someone you do not like is indeed in the folk idiom.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM

Steve wrote:-
The folk clubs started in the UK in the 1950s and are not part of any previous tradition.

Correct, they are not. Yet they very swiftly established their own traditions. Most people would give the start of the British folk song revival to 1951 and the 1951 Edinburgh People's Festival Ceilidh being its first manifestation and one that made a huge impact - hardly surprising with figures like Lomax, Henderson and MacColl at the helm and arranging the content. There was a concert at the Oddfellows Hall on 31st August and other more informal associated events throughout the weekend in smaller halls and homes. Alan Lomax has the good sense to record the concert and though the conditions were far from ideal, the result catches the excitement of the event. The concert contains some fine performances of the big ballads, particularly by Jessie Murray and they are mixed with others of much more recent origin, cornkisters with the composer known, bothy ballads, the recently written John MacLean March sung by Hamish Henderson, great Gaelic singing and the whole lightened and contrasted with some instrumentals from John Burgess on the pipes - and he is not playing his heavy Ceol Mor repertoire but realises his role so plays accessible tunes like Irish Washerwoman.

Many influential people were there including Norman Buchan who was to start his own folk club in Glasgow soon after. Arthur Argo was also there and combined with others to get things moving in Aberdeen. The fire that was kindled by these three in Edinburgh and in London was soon to spread all over the country. I would contend that the rich variety of songs and tunes of different origins heard in that concert became the template for the way the folk scene developed inevitably with different people taking the music in different directions but still showing that inclusive approach that still characterises the scene today though the type of venues and presentation styles continue to diverge.

Fortunately the Lomax recordings of that night were released on a CD in 2006 - 1951 Edinburgh People's Festival Ceilidh - Various Performers - The Alan Lomax Collection Series - Rounder CD 1786
You can read a long review of the album and hear a few sound clips from it by clicking here


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:42 PM

DtG thanks for the Nancy Mulligan cover by Lloyd Griffiths. I like that better than ES's.
I wouldn't mind hearing him sing that down at the local 'folk club'. It'd be at the folkier sounding end of the the assortment of stuff we get on a singers night.
To me the words look like other folk songs and to me he sounds folky because there isn't a drum kit.
Though he is wearing a baseball cap.
Hmmm.
But if I close my eyes I can pretend I didn't see it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 PM

'the decline =was brought about when the right of choice was taken from folk song lovers' Absolute rubbish (IMO).


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM

All of that is your opinion and interpretation, Jim! Let's see if anyone else takes up the sword for your religious cause.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

"They have their own tradition"
That is a gross misuse off the term tradition

Definitions the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
"members of different castes have by tradition been associated with specific occupations"
synonyms: historical convention, unwritten law, oral history, heritage

The only other defintions is about religion

The clubs based their practices on a song tradition that they borrowed from -
This is a nonsensical abuse of the English language

" it is a shame that Rod is not selling as many copies "
Lip service if you are not prepared to do anything about it - the rest is yet another string of ecuses which totally ignore the fact that the decline of the clubs was documented as far back as the predictions of what would happen if the scene didn't do something about what was happening
Still no attempt to justify the fact that what is passed off as 'folk' today has nothing whatever to do with folk song proper - certainly no acceptance that the decline =was brought about when the right of choice was taken from folk song lovers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:45 PM

The folk clubs started in the UK in the 1950s and are not part of any previous tradition. They have their own tradition which has evolved to encompass a wide range of other performance arenas, festivals, sessions, singarounds, concerts in a wide range of venues, house concerts; taking the music out into a wide range of institutions, schools, colleges, museums, village halls, all thriving with plenty of people of all ages involved. I do get around the country and I have folk performing friends all around the country, and traditional music is not suffering because of the infiltration of any other types of music. I co-operate with many young performers and they all have a great respect for and knowledge of the traditional music of these islands.

It has been stated by quite a few people on this thread and others that the decline in actual FOLK CLUBS since the 80s is down to a very wide range of factors, certainly not down to what sort of music is or has been played in the clubs.

As an avid buyer of MTCDs, it is a shame that Rod is not selling as many copies currently but again this can be put down to a wide range of factors, not least the current economic mess, and the fact that some of his latest productions have largely duplicated what is available from other companies, Topic, Veteran etc.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:19 PM

"Good folk". Now that is an interesting concept! Had you said "authentic folk" I would have to agree with you, none of the harmony groups I mentioned sound much like anything I'm aware of from the tradition, even including the Coppers. However the same can be said of most of what is performed in folk clubs, including instrumental accompaniment with guitar, concertina or melodeon, or the rather odd nasal vocalisation affected by some male singers and the breathy head voice of some female singers. The folk revival has developed its own styles. What determines "good folk" in the context of folk clubs is surely whether the audiences enjoy it, and all the groups I mentioned are, or were in their time, very popular with folk club audiences.

I believe the principal reason people become attracted by folk music is the same as any other genre - they like the sound of it. There may be additional reasons of course, but why listen to something if you don't enjoy it? That is the reason I prefer to hear folk songs sung by folk singers (even the nasal/breathy ones) rather than by classical or rock singers - I generally prefer their sound to that of the others.

Let us both acknowledge that our personal experience of folk clubs is necessarily limited and that we cannot be certain that our own experience is entirely representative of the club scene as a whole.    Let us also acknowledge that we have different views on where to draw the line on what is acceptable to hear in a folk club. What I cannot agree with is your assertion that singing songs from the wrong side of that line, wherever it lies, is driving out traditional music and driving away audiences, when folk clubs have always included such material.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:25 PM

alfred williams.. recrded everything that was being sung in his area this included glee songs sung by solo singers, this was of course in the 19 th century.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM

Regarding Lomax's view:

Vic doesn't mention the dates of the material that he and others are investigating except to mention a Victorian group. I would therefore guess that the groups being investigated are pre Lomax's time in England.

And in the light-hearted manner in which these threads are carried on may I also add my request that Vic confires his findings.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

"We are talking about folk songs and folk clubs,"
No we are talking about what goes on in folk clubs and how they relaye to the real thing - which is why people turned up to them
Yu always avoid answering questions by asking another
I asked you to relate youtrm song to the sound of a folk song, please do
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

We are talking about folk songs and folk clubs, Jim. If the song and link I sent does not measure up to your points, tell us why.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:31 AM

Be interested to hear what transpires Vic - I heard this about thirty years ago and have still not had it confired
I think Lomax described The Copper's style as being native to Sussex as long back as the early fifties
I enjoyed their singing but found that it was the sound I was listening to rather than the words - which I find problematical
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM

what the Coppers did, which was a family raher than a general folk style
I can't think of many other singers who sang as they did


Recent research, some of it uncovered by those working under the banner of Sussex Traditions (inclusing self) are uncovering examples - recordings and written references - of other families who sang in the "alternating glee harmony" of the Copper Family - the Hills of East Dean. the Townsends of East Chiltington, The Millens in faraway Kent. There are also accounts of a Victorian carol group in Falmer and a choir that sang folk songs in Ditchling - both with similar repertoires to the Coppers. Still much to be investigated but progress is slowed by the time that one of the team wastes on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:58 AM

CAN YOU GIVE US A GENUINE FOLK SINGER WHO SOUNDS LIKE THIS DAVE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:50 AM

The contributors seem to differ only in what is acceptable and who should make that decision.

That is also the voice of reason and what I have been saying all along. So, on that note, I am happy to justify one of the songs I put up as "in the folk idiom" against Jim's criterea. Here goes...

Jim's criteria

1. word dominated, narrative communications of ideas and emotions
2. accompaniment, where it occurs is secondary to the narrative
3. The characters in the songs are identifiable people, usually with occupations and individuality
4. They have problems and situations we can all identify with
5. Structurally they ar four or eight line versified, they may have choruses but they hardly ever repeat phrases other than as a plot device
6. Performed in a traditional "folky" style
7. The melody needs to be folky too but as Jim will not be pinned down on what that is i can only assume that it needs to sound like a folk tune to a number of people.


The Song. Nancy Mulligan written by Songwriters: Amy Victoria Wadge,Benjamin Joseph Levin,Edward Christopher Sheeran,Foy Best Vance,John McDaid,Murray Cummings.

I was twenty-four years old
When I met the woman I would call my own
Twenty-two grand kids now growing old
In that house that your brother bought ya

On the summer day when I proposed
I made that wedding ring from dentist gold
And I asked her father, but her daddy said, "No
You can't marry my daughter"

Chorus A.
She and I went on the run
Don't care about religion
I'm gonna marry the woman I love
Down by the Wexford border
Chorus B.
She was Nancy Mulligan
And I was William Sheeran
She took my name and then we were one
Down by the Wexford border

Well, met her at Guy's in the second world war
And she was working on a soldier's ward
Never had I seen such beauty before
The moment that I saw her

Nancy was my yellow rose
And we got married wearing borrowed clothes
We got eight children now growing old
Five sons and three daughters

Chorus A and B

From her snow white streak in her jet black hair
Over sixty years I've been loving her
Now we're sat by the fire in our old armchairs
You know Nancy, I adore ya

From a farm boy born near Belfast town
I never worried about the king and crown
'Cause I found my heart upon the southern ground
There's no difference, I assure ya

Chorus A and B


So, let's see how it measures up.

Point 1. It is a word dominated communication of ideas and tells a story

Point 2. Accompaniment can be kept to a minimum as my link below demonstrates.

Point 3. The characters are all identified. As is their occupations and individuality.

Point 4. They have distinct problems that are easily identifiable

Point 5. 4 line verses. 2 are sung followed by a 2 part chorus, each part having 4 lines

Point 6. Sheeran's original recording may be over produced for some tastes. I have given a link below to a much simpler recording

Point 7. The tune sounds folky to me and millions of others.


I don't know this guy at all so I hope he doesn't mind my using his version to demonstrate a simpler version of Nancy Mulligan. Cover by Lloyd Griffiths

Now, as far as I am concerned, I have responded to all your points, Jim. Back to you to disprove it is not in the folk idiom.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM

"There would seem to be little difference between these two positions despite the apparent disagreements."
I've made my position quite clear on that Vic - I have no problem with people whyo draw from the tradition - a little different from the bums on seats attitude of presenting stuff that has no connection with traditional song , which is easily identifiable and not just "a matter of opinion"
Johnny Doughty was heavily influenced by music-hall songs and his performance reflected that
Davie Stewart and Jimmy McBeath were street oerformers and their perfiormances were typical of that paricular style - Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy summed that up perfectly when he talked about street singing, pub singing and fireside singing of the same songs being totally different
Audiences came to be entertained by the content of the songs, nt to listen to the various uses they were put to, which woud be more suitable for a seminar rather than a club
Jeannie was a superb traditional singer, a true representative artist
I heard Jimmy sing at one time and he managed to walt the tightrope between street and firside singing so you could appreciate it on both levels
In my opinion Maggie Barry never quite did that
All this is a million miles from what is being proposed as being suitable for today's clubs of course

"Technically excellent, sometimes spectacular, but predictable and dull compared with the vitality of the real village music that the likes of Bert Lloyd was recording in remote parts in those countries."
I couldn't agree more
Lloyd once described recording a lament from a young Rumanian girl whose youngest brother had drowned -
She was the singer who was always called on to formally sing laments, but because it was her brother on the table her involvement became so intense that what she sang was folk-art at it's creative highest - it still produces a lump in the throat to remember it
Howard
Something being well regared on the folk scene doesn't automatically make it good folk - none of those you list strike me as being tahat, though the Watersons seemed to be influenced by what the Coppers did, which was a family raher than a general folk style
I can't think of many other singers who sang as they did
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

Howard Jones says that A GOOD SONG in the style of the Watersons ,YT etc is likely to be acceptable to most folk audiences
'even if it is a *pop* song- HEAR HEAR!!

That does not preclude the *traditional* material beloved of Jim Carroll, in fact the presence of both *genres* would make for the variety which maybe would benefit the enjoyment of both. He knows what the terms folk and traditional mean- I would love that kind of certainty. I just know it when I hear it without any academic distinctions- comments like 'that's the real thing' have been whispered in my ear by Vic smith, Pete Wood & others- they know it too!

* I am using terms like traditional and pop and genre but I hate using such words, I believe traditional music is defined by style rather than repertoire...
one of my best ever complimemnts was when playing in a trio on Cape Clear Island over 20 years ago, a Clonakilty pub owner who ran sessions said to us (Me, Patrick Forrester and Liam Kenneally) that..


'there are traditional musicians & there are musicians who play traditional music & youse boys are the first type'
-ps I just heard the Martin Hayes Quartet on RTE radio and I'd put them in the second category- it was awful.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

Howard wrote:-
you have already acknowledged that some non-traditional songs are acceptable. The question then is where to draw the line, and that becomes a matter of taste and judgement for particular clubs, and their audiences. The balance has always varied between individual clubs - some were heavily traditional, others mostly contemporary, most lay somewhere in between. Traditional music has always been at the heart of what folk clubs put on, and so far as I can see that remains the case

Jim wrote:-
I've said from the beginning that any movement that insists on just folk songs is ploutering around a museum
You use the traditional forms to create new songs - that is what makes for homogeneous folk scene - that's what people accepted in the past without cramming other forms and styles under the umbrella.


There would seem to be little difference between these two positions despite the apparent disagreements. The contributors seem to differ only in what is acceptable and who should make that decision.

One of the greatest things about traditional song in these islands was its enormous variety; great entertainers like Jimmy MacBeath acting out a song, entrancing diva type singers like Jeannie Robertson, the wonderful controlled decoration of the great Irish singers, rasping rascally rogues like Johnny Doughty, the quiet deadpan delivery of the women singers Bob Copper recorded in the south, the power and creativity of singers as different as Gordon Hall and Davy Stewart who could and did make new verses as they went along as the mood took them. All very different and much richer for it and the folk revival should copy and develop this variety rather than aiming for a "homogeneous folk scene". The phrase makes me think of the many state-sponsored song and dance sides that the East European communist countries arranged to come to Sidmouth and other large British festivals. Technically excellent, sometimes spectacular, but predictable and dull compared with the vitality of the real village music that the likes of Bert Lloyd was recording in remote parts in those countries.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

Since you ask, my own preference is strongly towards traditional song. When I discovered folk in my teens I became so involved that I turned away from pop music, although with hindsight I realise now that I missed out on some good music. I would say 75-80% of my song repertoire is traditional, although these days I am most active as a musician in a ceilidh band and don#t sing as often as I used to.

I have never suggested that the Kink's style of performance would be appropriate in a folk club. I was specifically describing a performance of one of their songs in the unaccompanied harmony style which has become common in folk clubs, from performers such as the Watersons, Young Tradition, Swan Arcade, Cockersdale, The Wilsons, and many more. Whether or not you like that style of singing, it is widespread on the folk scene and I stick to my view that a good song in that style is likely to be acceptable to most folk audiences, regardless of its origins.

I'm not sure we had a homogeneous folk scene, the one I was part of was extremely varied both in style and content. Not everything I heard was to my taste, but I wouldn't expect to like everything. The main unifying factor was that songs had a strong sense of structure and (usually) a clear story or message. Sometimes even pop songs can achieve that.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:40 AM

"Of course if you feel that any time spent singing non-traditional songs is time wasted then that is understandable"
Utter nonsense - my own reperoir is about made up of around a third non traditional songs
This is distorting my position utterly- I've said from the beginning that any movement that insists on just folk songs is ploutering around a museum
You use the traditional forms to create new songs - that is what makes for homogeneous folk scene - that's what people accepted in the past without cramming other forms and styles under the umbrella
As far as the Kinks are concerned, I choose them and Dave's pop singer, Ed Sheeran becaause thaie, over accompanied, repetitive manner of singing is as far as you can get from our information communicating narrative folk function
Not one of you have attempted to explain where your preferences *which you are fully entitled to) fit in with folk song - the only feeling I get from you is lip-service patronising of its "importance", general disinterest and occasionally open hostility "wer know it's important but it's time to make room for our stuff" basically
Try doing that with any other musical form ant see how far you get
"Balanced voice of reason" tends to have come to mean "something I agree with"
Doesn't mean too much Vic
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:51 AM

The above post from Howard seems to be the balanced voice of reason. I certainly recognise my experience of British folk clubs as guest singer, organiser and general supporter from what he has written... and it reminded me that my first visit to a folk club when I was a schoolboy is now (gulp) sixty years ago!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

Jim,

You persist in misinterpreting my point about the Kinks. I was not in any way claiming that they are "folk" per se. What I was saying was that an interpretation of one of their songs performed in a "folk style" should not be out of place in a folk club. Most club audiences, in my experience, were (and still are) sufficiently sophisticated and broad-minded to enjoy the occasional bit of fun without feeling that their enjoyment of traditional music was being compromised.

Of course if you feel that any time spent singing non-traditional songs is time wasted then that is understandable. However you have already acknowledged that some non-traditional songs are acceptable. The question then is where to draw the line, and that becomes a matter of taste and judgement for particular clubs, and their audiences. The balance has always varied between individual clubs - some were heavily traditional, others mostly contemporary, most lay somewhere in between. Traditional music has always been at the heart of what folk clubs put on, and so far as I can see that remains the case, but there has always been a place for other music provided it was complementary to trad and performed in an appropriate "folk" style. Railing against that, when it has been the case for more than half a century, seems pointless to me.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

Dave
"04:53 AM"
You responded with yet more demands that I ansewer your questions -yet you continue not to answer mine - you do this often enough to show (to me at least) that they are only an excuse to avoid my points
I've made my point about the role of melody over and over again - you haave adequate enough information to respond to what I've argued - lease do so
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

"their clubs are thriving than those telling me they are dying. "
All 186 of them (your figures) ?
You are duckin' and divin' again
I'm not intersted that clubs whio no longer cater for folk song (as you have indicated) are "thriving
It concerns me that in many of the folk songs are no longer welcome
Sorry - we're not communicating again, just going over old graound
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:20 AM

unless you' are a travelling salesman your first hand information on other clubs is no better than mine

Not a travelling salesman but a sales support technician that did travel all over the country until 8 years ago. But now, yes, my knowledge is of just 3 clubs and what people tell me. There are a lot more people telling me their clubs are thriving than those telling me they are dying.

I have readily admitted over and over again that the folk club scene is not perfect. Just not as bad as you make it out to be. Your selective memory is getting in the way of what was really said and, once again, I can confidently predict that you cannot find any instance of my saying "none of this is really happening".

You know very well why I have not responded to your points. See my post 17 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM if you have forgotten. Once you clarify what you want, I can respond. I have lost count of the number of times you have attributed the words of others to me and said one thing then said you meant something else. I am not falling for it again.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

"Sorry Jim, but what you have just told us is that everything you know about the folk club scene in England is either out of date or hearsay."
I've done no such thing Dave - unless you' are a travelling salesman your first hand information on other clubs is no better than mine - the internet places us where we need to be in terms of what passes for folk
You have argued passionately for a folk scene that has radiaclly moved away from traditional song proper, as have others here
If I didn't have access to what passes for "good" in folk song today, I'm more than happy to be guided by you
Please stop wiggling - you and others have told me how folky Ed Sheeran is and others have praised The Kinks to the Folk Heavens
I was inspired to start all this by an editorial written by somebody who has produced some of the finest example of traditional singing available - and can't sell them - all you have offered is excuses why the clubs are disappearing and people aren't purchasing the magnificent stuff that is available
Now you're back to telling me that none of this is really happening (when you've nearly but a gut telling my why it is) and my information is out of date
You really need to stick to your own hymn sheet
And you still haven't responded to what you ask me to repeat
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:45 AM

Where are these clubs where there are flawed sinners? I want to go there :-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

I am still active and performing in the UK AND IN IRELAND. this is my opinion, tradtional unaccompanied singing is valued more in ireland than in england, there are still a number of folk clubs in the uk that value it but they are a minority.
the instrumental side the playing of irish reels etc is a little stronger than england, but in scotland instrumental scottish music is strong.
the song accompaniment skills are much stronger in the uk, for example there are virtually no concertina accompanists other than me, yet in the uk there is steve turner, me, brian peters roy clinging john kirkpatrick and many more.the scenes are different. what needs improving in the uk is the standard of floor sinning in in some non guest singing clubs, some of it is an insult to the audience, a few of them are flaw sinners. this is not a competition between one country and the other .


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM

Sorry Jim, but what you have just told us is that everything you know about the folk club scene in England is either out of date or hearsay. I am not saying you are wrong but given that the evidence of people who are still very active in English folk clubs is at odds with your second hand and pieced together information, who would an independent adjudicator believe?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:21 AM

By the way Hoot, in the fifties I was in Liverpool, half way though the sixties I moved to Manchester and at the end of them, to London - I regularly visited clubs throughout Britain and associated with many fellow researchers via weekend connferences and events right up to my leaving Britain in 1999, when the rot was really beginning to set in bigtime
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Oh dear - I don't know what is happening in the UK because I no longer live there - not that old chestnut?
@Course I don't - I never visit the UK because of the vast distance, we don't have internet because we live in the middle of the West Clare desert, All by old friends and family emigrated to the moon, we never meet up with UK people who share our interests and ... most of all - I haven't got you good people to explain to me (and argue for) what's happening on the folk scene
I think, wven from a couple of threads like this, more or less what has happened to teh folk scene in Britain, especially as it started to happen two decades before I moved to Ireland
Gi'e us a break Hoot
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM

Jim C states:

"Actually, the music was not in a bad way in the 50s and 60s - you just had to know where to go to find it" I believe Jim was in Liverpool and London at that time.

From postings on this thread I guess you could say the same for Folk Music in the UK today but we are constantly being told by Jim who obviously doesn't know where because he lives in another country.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:26 PM

I pointed out that the branches vary, the bantry branch runs the chief o neill festival and organises non competitive music sessions,
in my experience branches are generally [not always] left alone to their own devices [clontarf was an exception.,and so it seems was the west london branch [what year was this and what year was clontarf]
I AM GLAD THE WEST LONDON BRANCH SURVIVED, HOWEVER IT WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED IF T WAS NOT FOR CCE]despite what they did in btween in expelling.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM

I've already apologised Dick - accept it or forget it
The problem with CCE is that it is a monolithic Government approved organisation whose play by the rulebook to win prizes ethos tends to stultify creativity and initiative
I have the greatest respect for the teachers, but quite often they leave in depair at trying to fight the bureaucrats - I know this because of a A CLOSE FRIEND doing just that
I had the honour of being part of an offshoot of a branch of some of some of Londons best musicians (Roger Sherlock, Raymond Roland, Booby Casey... etc) which was expelled for refusing to be part of one of the leadership's schemes
The West London Traditional Music Group survived after the CCE Branches all collapsed for want of support
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM

Dick wrote:-
jim carroll, you owe me an apology , that anonymous post was not me

but at 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM Jim wrote
I auomatically assume that was Dick Miles - an old battlegound
I apoloogise if it wasn't but it is a fact


To me this sounds like an apology to you.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM

jim carroll, you owe me an apology , that anonymous post was not me.Iagree with youabout clontarf however not every CCE branch is like clontarf , they are as good or bad as the people organising them, for example the bantry branch is very different from the skibbereen branch. i am not being mean minded the standrad of instrumental playing and unaccompanied singing is very high, however the standard of song accompaniment is not, that is not opinion but fact, probably because the tradtion in the past hasbeen mainly unaccompanied, but tradtionshave to evolve if they do not they become moribund


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM

TRY THIS PRETTY REPRESENTATIVE CLIP
NOT BAD HERE ) DESPITE MY COOLNESS TOWARDS ACCORDIONS
GOOD HERE TOO
AND HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,im bainbridge
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:22 PM

Well that's a bit more constructive, Jim C!
I have no wish to antagonise anyone- I think the 'boom' had an important influence on the 'revival' in Ireland- there certainly was one, maybe not as in England but a revival nonetheless, and I say it was needed, even if you still think all was well..
There are lots of technically skilful young musicians in Ireland- I know several in Leitrim- some of them listen to the older* players & absorb the old ways,, some of them are aiming for commercial success & listen to agents & promoters and it shows.

* eg Michael O'Brien, Sean Gilrane, Ben Lennon & Lorraine Sweeney, a younger player who knows what it's about...….
Clare is obviously great for music, but whatever happened at Doolin?- to repeat my question in an earlier post, what about a direct answer? There is nowhere in UK where such an abomination of the music exists. For Bord Failte etc to promote it as a hotbed of traditional music is a travesty, and I shudder to think of the disappointment suffered by knowledgable European visitors?
hope you're having a happy Patrick's Day!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:10 PM

I meant to add, I know hardly any "young Irish whizzbang groups" - I'm referring to the masses of solo players, particularly concertina and piping player, who are springing up like mushrooms - in their many hundreds - the ones we knew some years ago are now teaching
There are sessions a-plenty but as afr as I can make out - no groups - I don't know where that idea came from
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

2I thought I'd made it clear that I am an admirer of much Irish music, "
I didn't suggest you weren't Jim, I'm sure you are; I'm equally sure you have a distorted picture of the music scene here - I don't just rely on what is ahppening in Clare, where the music has always thrived, but our work takes us to Dublin regularly, where we are given a fuller picture from our contact with The Irish Traditional Music Archive
Actually, the music was not in a bad way in the 50s and 60s - you just had to know where to go to find it
Fra from needing to be inspired by The Folk Boom, which came and went as fast here as it did in England, there were enough musicians and singers around to make it possible to draw on them to build up the extremely healthy scene there is now and create a solid foundation, not based on 'names' but on local players and singers - The Willie Clancy School was the first such venture and shortly afterwards Nicholas Carolan worked to set up The Irish Traditional Music Archive
There was always known to be music and singing in Connemara, Donegal, Kerry, Cork and Clare and the BBC project proved conclusively that other counties still had a fair number of tradition performers to draw on - particularly in the six Northern Counties
Im told by friends that Wexford was fairly righ traditionally
Later County Louth turned out to be a'nest of singing birds'
What was missing was a guarantee that young singers would take over where the older ones left off - sorted beyond doubt now
It's hard to know what you mean by 'poor state' - Ireland didn't have a 'revival' in the same way as Britain had, so there were no clubs to judge by
Irish music, singing and storytelling was strictly a fireside activity, apart from the crossroads dances that were destroyed by the priests - that continued to happen till beyond the mid 20th century
What it boils down to is that the Irish scene is now guaranteed to last while the British one is blowing for tugs - there are several lessons to be learned there
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

You missed the point again Jim C- I thought I'd made it clear that I am an admirer of much Irish music, and wish it nothing but the best. I have lived quietly in Ireland for 20 years on & off and have many friends among the musicians & singers of Ireland who will tell you I am no 'begrudger'- what nonsense.
You may live in a great place for music, I don't doubt it but Ireland is NOT a lost world of music- it is in isolated areas rather than EVERYWHERE as Bord Failte would have you believe!
You keep telling us about your important work- well you're English, I think, as is is Reg Hall, whose contribution to Irish music has been massive! I cannot compare my own input to that of Reg but As English people, both myself and Dick have also contributed> We're all very much part of that 'boom' & glad we were
All I am saying is that in the 50s & 60s, the music was in a bad way everywhere in these islands, and surviving in isolated places only! o
You simply ignore what is said rather than accept any input from outside- few Irish people would do that- I think I have told you what I think about the boom- it was a very valuable catalyst to the music on both sides of the Irish sea, and to be so blinkered about the state of the music in Ireland in the 50s & 60s is just daft.
as for most young Irish whizzbang groups, you're welcome, i'd rather read a book.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

By the way - thanks for pointing it out Vic
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

By the way - thanks for pointing it out Vic
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

I auomatically assume that was Dick Miles - an old battlegound
I apoloogise if it wasn't but it is a fact
Go look up the 'Clontarf property-grab' fiasco
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

"Garbage."
I wouldn't say they were that bad Dick - they did their best

Not quoted from Dick but from GUEST 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM.
I am not the first to ask for posts to be read clearly before answering to avoid confusion.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

"Garbage."
I wouldn't say they were that bad Dick - they did their best
Seriously - I saw kids who were forced into joining walk away from the music when they were old enough to make up their own minds
Hopefully some of them will now come back now that the music is freely available for the love of it and without the political agenda and the corruption that went with CCE
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM

CCE destroyed more interest in traditional music with their 'competition' agenda than they won supporters - competitions are for winners
Garbage.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM

It's somewhat stupid to expect muusic to be distributed equally anywhere Dick - that wasn't even true of the tradition
Some places had traditional music and song, some places had hardly any
THere are literally thousands of youngsters fairly newly arrived at the music thanks largely to the Willie Clancy Summer School being what it was - a school - many of the pupils of that school are now teaching
Of course some places develop faster than others - when has that not been the case ?
One of the greatest victories has been the smashing of the peer-pressure barrier
Fiddler Kevin Glackin once described how he had to hide his fiddle from his classmates when he was going to a CCE class for fear of being beaten up or having his instrument damaged
Even youngsters who don't play boast they have mates who do
Stop being mean-minded - the music has now been guaranteed a future   
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

Jim everyone knows that clare is the strongest place for trad music, but if it was as strong everywhere else would it not be better,here in west cork it is middling, trad songs are poular but generally people want a mix of tunes and songs, in clare and sliabh luchra, trad instrumental musdic is very popular and the standard is very high, unfortunately country and irish is strong in ireland and seems tobe relentleesly gaining in popularity


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