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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Tunesmith 10 Feb 19 - 04:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Feb 19 - 04:35 AM
Tunesmith 10 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM
GUEST 10 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 19 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,Sean O'Shea 10 Feb 19 - 06:37 AM
Hagman 10 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Peter 10 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 19 - 09:54 AM
FreddyHeadey 10 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM
Tunesmith 10 Feb 19 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 10 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 19 - 12:06 PM
Vic Smith 10 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 19 - 01:01 PM
Tunesmith 10 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 19 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Peter 10 Feb 19 - 01:47 PM
Tunesmith 10 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM
Tunesmith 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Feb 19 - 04:36 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 19 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Hootennanny 10 Feb 19 - 06:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Feb 19 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Kenny B 10 Feb 19 - 06:35 PM
Hagman 10 Feb 19 - 10:05 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 19 - 02:46 AM
r.padgett 11 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM
GUEST 11 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM
Johnny J 11 Feb 19 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 19 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM
John MacKenzie 11 Feb 19 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Kenny B (inactive) 11 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM
GeoffLawes 11 Feb 19 - 07:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Feb 19 - 05:04 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Observer 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Feb 19 - 08:35 AM
Iains 12 Feb 19 - 08:56 AM
Jos 12 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM
Iains 12 Feb 19 - 09:53 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 12 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Kenny B 12 Feb 19 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Kenny B 12 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM
Iains 12 Feb 19 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 19 - 01:34 PM
Vic Smith 12 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 12 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM
Iains 12 Feb 19 - 04:15 PM
The Sandman 12 Feb 19 - 05:03 PM
Vic Smith 12 Feb 19 - 05:38 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Feb 19 - 05:45 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Feb 19 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Larry Poole 12 Feb 19 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 13 Feb 19 - 02:25 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Observer 13 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,Sol 13 Feb 19 - 03:37 AM
Jack Campin 13 Feb 19 - 03:39 AM
The Sandman 13 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 13 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM
Iains 13 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM
Jack Campin 13 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 05:26 AM
Iains 13 Feb 19 - 05:33 AM
Jack Campin 13 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM
GeoffLawes 13 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM
Jack Campin 13 Feb 19 - 09:26 AM
Tunesmith 13 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM
Jack Campin 13 Feb 19 - 10:20 AM
Tunesmith 13 Feb 19 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM
GUEST 13 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM
The Sandman 14 Feb 19 - 01:23 AM
Jack Campin 14 Feb 19 - 03:48 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 14 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM
The Sandman 14 Feb 19 - 07:16 AM
r.padgett 14 Feb 19 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Peter 14 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Peter 14 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM
John MacKenzie 14 Feb 19 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 19 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 19 - 03:08 PM
Vic Smith 14 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM
The Sandman 14 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM
Iains 14 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 19 - 06:56 PM
Hagman 14 Feb 19 - 07:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 03:40 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Feb 19 - 04:48 AM
Iains 15 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Feb 19 - 05:24 AM
Howard Jones 15 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM
Howard Jones 15 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 07:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 08:15 AM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Feb 19 - 08:34 AM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 09:28 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 09:33 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Feb 19 - 09:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM
The Sandman 15 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 10:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM
Rain Dog 15 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 15 Feb 19 - 10:49 AM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 15 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM
Jack Campin 15 Feb 19 - 12:41 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 01:55 PM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 02:12 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM
Jack Campin 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM
Vic Smith 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM
The Sandman 15 Feb 19 - 08:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Feb 19 - 09:12 PM
r.padgett 16 Feb 19 - 03:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM
Iains 16 Feb 19 - 03:51 AM
The Sandman 16 Feb 19 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 19 - 05:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 19 - 06:25 AM
Vic Smith 16 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM
Vic Smith 16 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM
Howard Jones 16 Feb 19 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,RS 16 Feb 19 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 19 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Sol 16 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM
Vic Smith 16 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM
r.padgett 16 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM
The Sandman 16 Feb 19 - 03:28 PM
Jack Campin 16 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Feb 19 - 04:44 PM
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Subject: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:31 AM

Does anybody out there have an idea of how many folk music clubs existed in the UK at the height of the 60s folk music boom?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:35 AM

42


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

42? No, surely! There must have been at least 50!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Heinz made it 57 I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

"Folk Clubs Sir, thousands of them"


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:03 AM

Yes indeedy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:37 AM

I wouldn't know.What I do know is that at the end of the sixties, you could go to a different club in Exeter every single night of the week.Spend a pound and you could buy entry, a packet of cigs and a good swallow for your pleasure.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Hagman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:39 AM

"Once, back in the heady days of the sixties and seventies, folk clubs abounded all over the country. Now, while they have not disappeared altogether, they are thin on the ground. At the peak of the folk revival, there were hundreds of clubs in and around London, seventy-two on Merseyside, a club seven nights a week in most of the big cities. Every town and many a village had a folk club. In the universities and colleges they flourished. In Edinburgh there was even one in the police social club."

P. xiii, Introduction. J.P. Bean. Singing From The Floor: A History of British Folk Clubs. Faber & Faber : London, 2014.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM

In the late 60s and early 70s what I never came across was participatory events such as instrumental sessions or singarounds. Even our local singers club operated fairly formally as an open stage event. It may be that they were just absent in my area or, in pre internet days, you just had to know the right people. These days there still seems to be as much opportunity to participate but it is less inviting to the outsider as fewer events are designed for performing to an audience.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:54 AM

I agree entirely with what's been said here though it's worth remembering that not long after the startup of the revival the music industry latched on to the idea that there might be a few bob in it fpr them and some of these clubs were outcomes of that
For me, when the money boys lost interest the scene found its own level and began to call the shots for itself
For me, that led to the real Golden Age of folk song, with singers deciding for themselves what was worth singing
My first experience of live music was in The Cavern in Liverpool where you could hear some of the finest jazz in Britain

The same as I described on the folk scene happened to Jazz - a discovery, a brief period of comercialisation and a leveling out
By the time I got to London at the end of the sixties I could sit in 'New Merlin's Cave' in Mount Pleasant and listen to Bruce Turner and Humph in comfort until my hair stood on end with pleasure
Good days
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

3,000?
Batman mentioned Singing From The Floor

Telegraph review of Singing From The Floor :
" ... There were around 3,000 clubs, though many were short-lived and run by those Dick Gaughan calls “fanatical amateurs”...."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/worldfolkandjazz/10653986/What-was-the-folk-music-scene-really-like-in-the-Sixties.html 
~~~~~~~
Singing From The Floor - J P Bean
thread
thread.cfm?threadid=153720 


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 11:12 AM

If 3000 clubs is about right, that means that there could have been around a quarter of millions visits to folk music clubs per week back then.
    Now, I bet, no other genre of music could boast those figures!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

Jim,

At what date do you put "the startup of the revival" and when do you believe the music industry latched on?

I am no defender of the music industry, far from it, but by enabling people to hear second and third rate copyists that became popular a good number of people turned to earlier roots or what we might call the real thing.

Like all things that become fashionable with the masses the size of the audience eventually gets back to something like it used to be before "the revival". Folk and jazz always were a minority sport.

The demise of "folk" and revivalist jazz is most probably because the people, singers/musicians and audience are coming or have come to the end of their days.

Fortunately there is an untold wealth of material available for future generations to enjoy.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:06 PM

"At what date do you put "the startup of the revival" and when do you believe the music industry latched on?"
I believe the earliest performances of folk were those arranged by Lomax at The Theatre Royal in Stratford East when he was on the run from McCarthy
The folk boom I'm not too sure about, but I know I had Kingston Trio and Clancy Brothers albums in the early sixties
The problem with the boom was they rather dominated the airwaves with erzatz folk (all the best stuff was on The Third Programme, which nobody listened to)
The other problem was newbies recognised the erzatz stuff as real folk and developed a taste for that rather than the Harry Cox's and Sam Larners
I can still remember the culture shock when somebody gave me a copy of MacColl's Folkways Vol 1 album of The Child Ballads = nearly ended us as a plant-pot stand
Luckily I had mates in Manchester where I could listen to Terry Whelan, Dave Hillary, terry Griffiths, Tom Gillfellon and Harry Boardman - that wasn't on offer to me in Liverpool then
There is a wealth of material for future generations to enjot - as long as somebody remembers where the key is
That's our job and there's no time like the present
I only hope I'm going to be around long enough to enjoy their enjoying it
It's giving me a greatt buzz here in Ireland - still coming down from last Sundays singing club in Dublin run by youngsters - magic!
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

I believe the earliest performances of folk were those arranged by Lomax at The Theatre Royal in Stratford East when he was on the run from McCarthy

What would been the date of the first of these Stratford events?
Many people have written that the earliest manifestation of the folk revival in the UK were the original Edinburgh People's Festival in the summers of 1951–54. There was a wide range of people from trade unionists, enthusiasts, academics and local politicians acknowledge in the founding of these with the cultural contribution made by Hamish Henderson, Ewan MacColl, Joan Littlewood, Norman Buchan, Alan Lomax, Joe Corrie and Councillor Jack Kane being mentioned as the main movers.
Lomax had the good sense to record a number of the concerts.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:01 PM

"If 3000 clubs is about right, that means that there could have been around a quarter of millions visits to folk music clubs per week back then.
    Now, I bet, no other genre of music could boast those figures!"

3000 clubs, each with an average attendance of over 80 ?
Some people will believe anything.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

How old are you? Lots of folk clubs back in the heyday had attendances of 100, and even then, they were turning people away.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:24 PM

"What would been the date of the first of these Stratford events?"
Around the same time as Edinburgh I think - Lomax was at both and probably helped inspire them - I really don't want to make this a pissing competition
Got the recordings of Edinburgh and Lomax's Scots stuff from the time is stunning
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:47 PM

"How old are you? Lots of folk clubs back in the heyday had attendances of 100, and even then, they were turning people away. "

Im the late 60s / early 70s went to clubs where, if you went to the bar, you had to wait for somebody else to want a drink before you could get back in. I also went to clubs (seldom more than once) with only a handful of people and most often to clubs that were comfortable busy. From venue sizes where I lived I would have put a typical audience in the 40 - 50 mark.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

Well, by the late 60s, as far as I'm concerned, the boom was well and truly over.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

"How old are you? Lots of folk clubs back in the heyday had attendances of 100, and even then, they were turning people away."
3000 of them ? Name them.
I'm over 60 - how old are you, and what's that got to do with anything ? ?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM

Guest, timing is everything. When did you start going to folk music clubs, and how old were you?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:36 PM

The late Barrie Roberts started his folk club in 1958 at the Fitters Arms Walsall. He said - the first week they were queuing round the block by six o'clock.

I can't remember any music industry people round the provincial clubs.   they'd have had a pretty thin time of it down The Jolly Porter in Exeter. Obviously they would have tried acts out in the London clubs.

I've yet to meet a booking agent who has actually ever been in a folk club. Not if you press them on the matter,,,,have you ever actually been inside a folk club yourself....?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:52 PM

Who are you asking, Al ?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:06 PM

As a matter of fact Al I was a booking agent and ran a folk club and visited others along with jazz clubs. I still go to folk clubs on rare occasions.

Sadly the kind of jazz that interests me is almost non existent hardly anyone left to play it unfortunately which is one of the reasons I mentioned above regarding traditional British folk singers of the type beloved of Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:30 PM

what sort of jazz is that. many of my friends are into jazz - perhaps i can help you. I don't know about Ireland, but there seems quite a lot of jazz around. And of course it a golden age for recorded jazz.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:35 PM

Hootenanny if you are interested in New Orleans or trad
Tuba Skinny are worth a listen to


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Hagman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 10:05 PM

"BATman"? Thanks, FreddyHeadey - I'll get my cape out.... :-)

An appendix in "Singing From The Floor" gives a little more help, but a definite list would seem to be very elusive, unless there is a particularly diligent PhD student up at Leeds or somewhere. Some of these may bring back some memories for you islanders:

"The Clubs.

During the period covered in Singing from the Floor an inestimable number of folk clubs has existed, some for only a short time, others for decades. It is unlikely that any comprehensive list of all known folk clubs could ever be compiled; the following is a selection of the clubs that were there in the earliest days of the revival, and the ones that have been referenced by the singers, musicians and others who appear in the book.

London

Black Horse, Rathbone Place Bill Leader and Gill Cook, who worked in Collett’s record shop, opened the Broadside Folk Club in the early sixties. It was here that Bert Jansch first sang ‘Needle of Death’, written as a tribute to his friend Buck Polly, who had recently died.

Bunjie’s A cellar folk club below a coffee house in Litchfield Street, Charing Cross, it opened in the mid-fifties and ran through the sixties.

Fox, Islington Green Began in 1964 with residents Bob Davenport and the Rakes. Davenport later ran clubs at the John Snow in Soho, where he gave Peter Bellamy his first floor spot, and the Empress of Russia, St John Street.

King and Queen, Foley Street The first club in Britain, where Bob Dylan sang from the floor in December 1962.

Half Moon, Putney This was more a music venue than a folk club. Gerry Lockran started folk blues sessions in 1963 and most of the leading British and American contemporary folk and blues acts played there, as well as rock bands like the Rolling Stones and the Who.

Herga Folk Club, Wealdstone Began in 1963, later moved to Pinner where it is still in existence. The Lakeman brothers’ parents were once residents and John Heydon was club organiser for twenty-three years. The first club to book Robin and Barry Dransfield as a duo.

Les Cousins, Greek Street Opened in 1965 below a Greek restaurant in the same premises that the Skiffle Cellar occupied from 1958 to ‘60. Les Cousins was the main venue in London for blues and contemporary folk music, with all-nighters on a Saturday.

Roundhouse, Wardour Street Cyril Davies opened a skiffle club in an upstairs room of the pub in 1955. Later became London Blues and Barrelhouse Club, run by Alexis Korner, who brought in visitors like Muddy Waters, Big Bill Broonzy and Champion Jack Dupree.

Singers’ Club Ewan MacColl had opened Ballads and Blues in 1957 at the Princess Louise, High Holborn, before starting the Singers’ Club with Peggy Seeger in 1961. The club’s first location was the Association of Cinematograph Television and Allied Technicians (ACTT) trade union building in Soho Square and later venues included the Princess Louise, Pindar of Wakefield, Merlin’s Cave and the Union Tavern. Known for its strict policy regarding traditional repertoire

Scots Hoose, Cambridge Circus A pub in Charing Cross Road, where Bruce Dunnett ran the folk club in an upstairs room, where the Young Tradition were formed and John Renbourn first met Bert Jansch.

Troubadour, Old Brompton Road, Earls Court A cellar room below a coffee house that opened in 1954. The leading folk venue in London until Les Cousins opened, and a stop-off for visiting American folk artists, including Bob Dylan. At different times, Ramblin’ Jack Elliott, Martin Carthy and Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan were resident singers.

White Bear, Hounslow The folk club was opened in 1965 by the Strawberry Hill Boys, later the Strawbs, led by Dave Cousins. In 1969, with Cousins still involved, it became the Hounslow Arts Lab, where on one occasion David Bowie made an appearance.


Elsewhere

Birmingham, Jug of Punch The Ian Campbell Folk Group opened their first club at the Trees pub in Birmingham in 1959, later moving to Digbeth Civic Hall where the club became known as the Jug of Punch and regularly attracted audiences of up to four hundred.

Bradford Topic Opened in 1956 by schoolteacher Alex Eaton and still running; the Topic is the longest-running folk club in Britain.

Bristol Troubadour A contemporary and blues club, ran from 1966 to ‘71, with a musical policy similar to that of Les Cousins.

Cambridge St Lawrence Folk Song Society Founded in 1950 by students at the university, although too early to be recognised as a folk ‘club’.

Chelmsford Folk Club Where Nic Jones came to notice in the mid-sixties as a member of the Halliard, the resident group.

Cornwall, Folk Cottage An old barn in Mitchell, a hamlet near Newquay and the base for folk and blues in the mid-sixties. Pete Stanley and Wizz Jones were resident and Ralph McTell got his first break there.

Edinburgh University Folk Society Founded in 1958 by medical student Stuart MacGregor and folklorist Hamish Henderson. The following year, resident singers Dolina MacLennan and Robin Gray started a singing night at the Waverley Bar in Edinburgh, where many Scottish performers gained experience. In 1960 a London entrepreneur Roy Guest opened the Howff, a haunt of the teenage Bert Jansch.

Glasgow Folk Song Club Located in a café, the Corner House on Argyll Street, and organised by Norman Buchan and his wife Janey. Archie Fisher, Josh McRae and Hamish Imlach were among the early residents.

Harrogate Folk Club Began in the early sixties, the club where Robin and Barry Dransfield began performing, in a bluegrass group the Crimple Mountain Boys.

Hull, Folk Union One The Folksons, who soon became the Watersons, opened their own club in 1959 in a dance hall. They moved on to Ye Old Blue Bell where in 1965 they and the folk club were featured in the BBC television documentary Travelling for a Living.

Liverpool, Spinners Folk Club Opened in 1958 in the basement of a restaurant, Samson and Barlow’s. For years, until the demands of their concert and television work took over, the Spinners were the resident group and they made their first record at the club. Later moved to Gregson’s Well and the Trident.

Manchester Sports Guild (MSG) An old warehouse in Long Millgate, the MSG opened in 1961 with jazz downstairs and, later, folk upstairs. All the top performers played there and a singer’s night on Mondays gave many artists, including Christy Moore, their early opportunities.

Manchester, Wayfarers The first folk club in Britain was started in 1954 by Harry and Lesley Boardman as a ‘folk circle’ at the Wagon and Horses pub. Two years later this became the Wayfarers folk club at the Thatched House in Spring Gardens

Newcastle Folk Song and Ballad Club Originated with folk nights that Louis Killen and Johnny Handle organised in a jazz club, moving to the Bridge Hotel, where it ran for many years. It inspired other clubs in the Tyneside area, notably Birtley, opened in 1962 by the Elliott family, and Marsden, home of the Marsden Rattlers

Oxford University Heritage Society Founded in 1956, Louis Killen and, later, June Tabor gained valuable experience while students.

Sheffield, Barley Mow Run by Malcolm Fox from 1964 at the Three Cranes. Tony Capstick and Dave Burland were early floor singers and, in 1966, the first club that Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick played as a duo.

Sheffield, Highcliffe The Highcliffe folk and blues club that began in 1967 was an early form of today’s mini-concert venues. The Humblebums, Barbara Dickson and John Martyn played their first gigs in England there.

Solihull, Boggery Organised and compèred by Jasper Carrott at the Old Moseleians Rubgy Club, it opened in 1969 with a focus on entertainment.

Surbiton Assembly Rooms The biggest folk club in Britain, with two halls, one with 700 capacity. Derek Sarjeant and Gerry Lockran started the club in 1961; by the time it closed it had 23,000 members.

Wentworth, near Rotherham, ‘Folk at the Rock’ Opened in 1974 at the Rockingham Arms, moving to nearby Maltby in 2007. Soon after founder and organiser Rob Shaw retired in 2012, the club folded.

York, Black Swan The present club, in the upstairs room in one of the oldest pubs in York, has been running since the mid-seventies. It was the venue for Nancy Kerr and Eliza Carthy’s first gig together, in 1992."

(Not sure how Bean came up with his incredibly definitive "seventy-two on Merseyside" in his Introduction....)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:46 AM

Personally, I found 'Singing From the Floor' mildly interesting but incredibly limited - and occasionally agenda driven
I'd be interested to know what the other contenders for the title of "Manchester, Wayfarers The first folk club in Britain" thought of the award being given to 'The Wayfarers' ((one of my early haunts)

"beloved of Jim Carroll."
Beloved by thousands when I entered the scene Hoot - Topic Records pioneered it and continue to stumble on with it despite the tsunamis of disinterest that continue to hit the scene
We had albums and even shops exclusively distributing the stuff and dozens of magazines animatedly discussing it and promoting it
I'm not sure whether your bringing me into is is a suggestion that my view is mine alone or an acknowledgement that folk music proper has been ethnically cleansed from the scene
I would hate to believe that me and all the hundreds of collections and works of my research are all that is left of folk song - if I did I'd be tempted to give outr collection to Oxfam and take up macramé
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM

Yes a definitive list remains illusive and will probably continue to be so ~ the legacy of this driven by collectors such as MacColl and Bert Lloyd, vinyl records and the early singer song writers, music hall, pubs, drop outs, post war ethos, entertainment and professionalism all contributed to the folk club boom ~ people wanted to entertain themselves and the "elders" wanted to provide a diversion where everyone could go and or participate

Unfortunately nowadays we are struggling to find even Youth clubs! Pubs continue to close and community spirit exists more in Food banks, god help us

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

Hagman:

The book to which you refer isn't completely reliable.

It is true that Gill Cook ran a Monday night folk club at the Black Horse in Rathbone Place. But, the Ballads and Blues Association was already running a very successful Saturday evening club at that venue prior to Gill's Monday nights. Gill's club catered mainly to the more traditional audience but also included Jansch, Renbourne etc   The reason that the Black Horse ceased to be host to both was the sad early death of Danny the landlord.

The Singer's Club: I am not sure that their first venue was at the ACTT in Soho Square. I think there may be some confusion here. The Ballads and Blues Association had used this venue prior to the existence of the Singer's Club. I am sure that this came about because one of our part time team was a camera man for ITV and was the union rep there. If there are any people around who were at the first Singers Club nights the may be able to confirm their first venue. Was it the Bull & Mouth Tavern?

King & Queen, Foley Street; First club in Britain ??? Or do I misunderstand you?
Peta Webb and Ken Hall still run a very good club there.

The Fox, Islington Green I believe morphed into the Islington Folk Club at various venues which still operates in the Clerkenwell area.

Jim

The reason I mentioned your name is that you constantly bemoan the fact that the area of music which you define as folk is non existant in the English folk clubs. As I mentioned above it is possibly because the performers and their audience are sadly declining in number thanks to the grim reaper.

Why do you always think that a mention of your name is some form of attack?

And by the way I am well aware of the important role played by Topic. I once worked there. I would however question your "dozens of magazines".

Kenny B;

Thanks for the suggestion. I am aware of Tuba Skinny, perhaps you will let me know the next time they are to appear in a club in London.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:43 AM

Even our old school in Inverness had its own folk club during the sixties in the cellar known as "The Katacomb"

As "first year", I wasn't allowed down there.

Here is one of the original members

https://youtu.be/BtYdo3gPvZE


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:12 AM

"which you define as folk"
I don't define it - that was done far before my time
Until someone comes up with a n alternative and gets a consensus for it, that's the one which will remain
The fact that no-one has done so is indicative that my fears on the health of the folk club scene are well-grounded
If the present incumbents are dying off that underlines my fears
"Why do you always think that a mention of your name is some form of attack? "
Why mention my name as if I am the only one to hold the views I do
I suggest that, rather than dying off, enthusiasts left the scene when they kept finding "Clubs with no folk" (I'm sure there's a song in there somewhere !
Want a list - Folk Music, Folk Review, Sing, Sing Out - Spin, Troubadour, Tradition, Musical Traditions, Ethnic, Folk Bulletin, London Folk, Garland (2 diferent ones), Folk and Country, The Lark.... and the dozens produced by individual clubs, such as Manchester, Bristol, Nottingham, several in London, Birmingham
I know Karl Dallas edited at least four
That's off the top of my head - I'll nip up in the loft and dig out the names of the rest if you wish
These ranged from club info sheets to monthly discussion and idea exchanging publications
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM

And by the way
"I am well aware of the important role played by Topic. I once worked there. "
Me too - I spent several weeks installing several light and power circuits in the then new Stroud Green Road premises - like letting a kid loose in a sweet-shop
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:08 PM

There were so many, and they were so desperate, that even I got bookings ;)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM

Hagman re Tuba Skinny 2019
POSTED BY ERIKA LEWIS ON TUBA SKINNY’S FACEBOOK PAGE:
“So, we’ve been scrambling to come up with a tour in the UK this summer, but unfortunately, do not have the funds necessary to make it there and back. We are hoping that next summer will provide the opportunities to make it happen. Thanks to all who have encouraged us to come over, hopefully we will see you next year!”
Yes, Erika, let’s hope for next year. The UK JAZZ COMMUNITY truly want Tuba Skinny to tour the UK and would be only too willing to help make it happen.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:09 PM

Hagman above said
Hull, Folk Union One The Folksons, who soon became the Watersons, opened their own club in 1959 in a dance hall. They moved on to Ye Old Blue Bell where in 1965 they and the folk club were featured in the BBC television documentary Travelling for a Living.
The BFI allows you to watch the whole 45 minutes of Travelling for a Living here
https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-travelling-for-a-living-1966-online
I think the commentary refers to 2 or 3 hundred folk clubs but that seems a bit low.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

I suppose the question we ought to be asking ourselves is, why aren't we all driving Austin Cambridges and Singer Gazelles?

In those days, there were these things called factories making these wondrous vehicles. Somehow, you can't help feeling that something important has been lost.....


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:04 AM

Another thing, in those days, seeing a playable guitar was a wondrous experience. you wanted to hear what it sounded like, what its proud owner could actually do? Roomfuls of people would assemble to catch a glimpse of a guitar.

Its like cars. Nowadays - every bugger has got a car where you stick the key in and it goes - this was not always the case.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

Cannot remember ever having gone to a folk club either to listen to a guitar or catch a glimpse of one - now who was singing and what they were singing was what in the main drew people in.

Those days unfortunately have gone, the accompaniment is now more important than the "song" which is more often than not bland, vapid nonsense.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:35 AM

Yes, Teribus. The summers were warmer, the snows deeper and the wagon wheels were bigger too!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:56 AM

In the 60's Folk music had far greater exposure on both Radio and TV.
The Dubliners appeared on top of the pops,as did many other "Folk Artists". Julie Felix had a regular spot on the Frost report. Even in the 70's the spinners had a bbc show that ran for 7 years. Although the mediums of exposure were far more limited than today I would argue that the material on offer was far more varied for what could be classed "popular" music.i.e. given repeatable airtime on Radio London, Radio Caroline and the BBC. The demand for folk/contemporary folk was there, otherwise the material would not be on offer. Today if anyone wants to have entertainment of a particular genre,it is available in abundance. Does this saturation dampen the desire to explore? Is folk music now pigeonholed to oblivion, hiding in dark recesses where it can no longer be easily found. Or perhaps society has changed. The enforcement of breathalyser limits, the closure of many pubs, the increased cost of beer, all have played a part. Since 2000, the number of pubs in the UK has fallen by 17%, or 10,500 pubs, according to the British Beer & Pub Association. Even the renowned Surbiton Assembly Rooms is now, sadly, a part of Surbiton High School for Girls.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jos
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

I'm surprised that the number of pubs has fallen by only 17% since 2000. I thought it was much more. There used to be five pubs within easy walking distance (about a mile) of my house - now there are two.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:53 AM

Jos It depends upon whose figures are accurate. Another set of numbers:
https://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Briefing_Closing%20time_web.pdf


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:20 AM

Not forgetting Cy Grant on Tonight, and Lance Percival on TW3 (Or was it Frost?) Rory and Alec McEwan were almost ubiquitous, and there were sightings of Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor Later on the wonderful Grant Baynham performed on Rantzen, and I think Jake Thackray too. They were everywhere, Al Stewart, Don Partridge etc etc etc etc.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM

Yes indeed The Spinners singing The Bleacher Lass of Kelnhaugh on Pebble Mull at one......taking fplk song to the people.

But did the traddies respect them......


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

Yes John the list goes on but I don't think the above people would be accepted under the 1954? bullshit rules set up by the self appointed self important Folk Music Police.

Too much like entertainment, not serious enough.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:36 PM


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM

Hootenany, Al, John McMenzie * Iains very valid points

and are the F.M.P a bunch of masochists? who cling to the past but use all the modern devices to preach to the folks who have moved on
Just wondered?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:45 PM

It is interesting that Luke Kelly recorded shoals of herring in 1957, and the Clancy brothers and Tommy Makem released a version. This was first released in 1962 by the author Ewan MacColl. The Dubliners recorded many Ewan MacColl songs, as did many other Folkies. Are Gordon Lightfoot and Ralph McTell not folksingers? Should the likes of the Dubliners and Dublin City Ramblers be dammed for performing contemporary material? and where would that leave the likes of Christy Moore, and dare I even mention Daniel O'Donnell or Foster and Allan?
All of the above have helped play a part in popularizing folk music over decades. It was their airtime that probably first encouraged more than a few members here to get interested/involved.

Does anyone take a blind bit of notice of the folk 'police' definition of what may or may not be folk. The limited sample of folk clubs and sessions that I have attended have made no distinction between old and new, other than to recognise the age difference. Does entertainment need to be subjected to the third degree in order to be enjoyed? Some may be interested in the origins, but what grants them a right to inflict their views on others. Most times research can give a series of possible solutions.
There is no guarantee that any of them are correct.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

" I don't think the above people would be accepted under the 1954? "
I often wonder why it is those who oppse any form of definition are the only ones ever to mention '54 as a rule book - it isn't abd it is a red herring to suggest it is
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:34 PM

"set up by the self appointed self important Folk Music Police."
I thought we weer going to keep insulting out of these arguments
The only "folk police' here are those who try to close arguments by insulting them down
Pack it in please Hoot - no point in asking the other user of the term to do so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

I thought we were going to keep insulting out of these arguments
So did I and I don't like it - but the one in question is sort of vague and non-specific and it is not directly targetted at anyone.
It is the insults that are clearly directed at a person or persons that the mods will quickly delete.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 02:03 PM

Insulting of any sort is quite likely to get these threads closed
We have already had our fill of 'folk police' directed at individuals in these rec ent discussions to damn well know who they are aimed at
Please try to behave like adults
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM

Jim,

You are doing it again. Did I mention you? It is my belief as you have stated previously that you didn't get into the music until 1966, twelve years after the event which I alluded to.

I don't understand he "abd" in your post is that an abbreviation or just a slip of the fingers?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 04:15 PM

Put very simply some people use their own discretion to decide whether a particular composition is folk music or not. They take great exception to those that would dictate a rigid defintion.
Below are two definitions that to my mind embrace the dichotomy for some and represent the fusion to others.
1)music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.

2)The second meaning of "folk music" is a particular genre of music. The roots of this genre are in traditional music, but it is by no means all traditional. ... There are a number of different types of music which can be considered part of folk music, including traditional, acoustic, bluegrass, Celtic, roots, and old-timey.

The two represent a circle that cannot be squared. Therefore there is no point in arguing over it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:03 PM

Jim, you are happy to throw the insult at me, yet you dont like it when others just mention it without mentioning your name. on this forum you behave like a child throwing its toys out of the pram


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:38 PM

Only one person has had an insult deleted by the mods in this thread.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:45 PM

>>>>>The two represent a circle that cannot be squared. Therefore there is no point in arguing over it.<<<<<

It's never stopped 'em before!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:53 PM

I've always had problems using the word 'definition' when it comes to describing genres. The bit in the middle 'finit' relates to the adjective 'finite' which at least implies rigid boundaries that can't be crossed. So all examples of the genre are either 'definitely' inside or outside the 'definition'. I much prefer the Venn diagram approach.

I'm happy to use the 54 descriptors in my research work, but I'm also very happy to use the world-wide commonly accepted idea of what folk music is when discussing it with people who would recognise it, i,e, the vast majority of the planet.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Larry Poole
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:17 PM

Bluegrass isnt folk music, but a modern commercial style created by Bill Monroe.
You berate the loss of folk clubs, but no one even knows what they are here in the States.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 02:25 AM

I don't think that Bill Monroe was trying to produce " a commercial style" when he created Bluegrass, he was simply following his musically muse.
The same could be said for many music genres. For example, was Bach thinking commercially when he became one of the main architects of the Baroque movement? Or, Scott Joplin thinking commercially when he "invented" ragtime?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:03 AM

"You are doing it again. Did I mention you?"
It doesn't matter who you mentioned Hoot - terms like "folk police" turn intelligent discussions into childish mud-slinging sessions and suppress friendly eexchanges of ideas whether they are aimed at individuals or just ideas they disagree with
I didn't come here to discuss wither your "folk policeman" is bigger than anybody's "snigger snogwriter" - we should be above that level of behaviour
Let's move on eh ?
o individual has to decide what "their" definition of folk song is - we've already got one of them, in spite of the latest fad to attempt to de-define it and lump it in with popular music in general
I've spent the last year or so working on Irish Child Ballads
Some if the ones I have been dealing with were sung by non-literate Travellers who hvae kept them alive for centuries as an essential part of their culture - a way of expressing themselves as human beings
Others were sung by rural dwelling land workers, small farmers and fishermen who carried them through their lives, along with their FOLK STORIES, FOLK MUSIC, FOLK DANCES AND FOLK LORE, and claimed them as their own
At present I am working on a batch taken by starving Irish men and women fleeing The Famine, to America and Canada
Many of these people could hardly read and write, for some, English was their second language, if they spoke it fluently at all - yet they cherished and kept alive centuries old songs and stories, identified them as important and claimed them as their own   
A few years ago I stumbled across the fact that Irish Travellers and rural dwellers in most towns in Ireland made songs in their thousands to record everyday incidents of their lives, from revolution and land wars to local railways and shipwrecks
I have no reason whatever to believe that British people didn't do exactly the same - they were certainly capable of it and had the desire to do so
For me, these identify (if people have problems with the term "define") what folk songs are - what they have always been regarded as - THE SONGS OR THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE
If anybody has a better way of defining "folk" they are entitled to put it (preferably without the childish name-calling) - that's what we are here for (that's what I'm here for anyway).

I have been accused of having a political agenda here - I can think of no greater "agenda" than to rob British people of their having made our folk songs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

For example, was Bach thinking commercially when he became one of the main architects of the Baroque movement? Or, Scott Joplin thinking commercially when he "invented" ragtime?"

I would suppose that would depend on what Bach's, or Joplin's, full time job was at the time. Now for J.S.Bach we have the following:

Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period, which spanned from 1600 to 1750. - So he was a full time musician.

For Scott Joplin - Scott Joplin (November 24, 1868 – April 1, 1917) was an African-American composer and pianist. Joplin achieved fame for his ragtime compositions and was dubbed the King of Ragtime. Sometime in the late 1880s he left his job as a railroad laborer and travelled the American South as an itinerant musician. He went to Chicago for the World's Fair of 1893, which played a major part in making ragtime a national craze by 1897. - so another full time musician.

I believe that both in their own way hoped that their "style" in both composition and in performance would guarantee that they, in their own way, stood out from the pack in order to secure their living. Is that commercial?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:37 AM

Btw, I love "snogwriter".
Definition: a composer of intimate love songs?
:-)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:39 AM

The fact that a song was collected from an illiterate in the late 20th century is no evidence at all that it was handed down orally for centuries. Illiterate people know people who can read song texts and staff notation. In the case of notation for instrumental dance tunes, this is a stone cold cert and it's often dead easy to work out which printed editions were involved in the chain of transmission that led to a specific performance learned by ear.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

tunesmith, Earal scruggs not bill monroe, created a new style of banjo playing which was thumb melody with continous sound [no gaps]. Lynn scruggs whao was a genius at marketing called it bluegrass, after the nickname for kentucky.
Jim you were happy to use the term folk police and direct it at me, you are a man of double standards.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

Bill was the genius who put it all together.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

"The fact that a song was collected from an illiterate in the late 20th century is no evidence at all that it was handed down orally for centuries."
Who's talking about the late 20th Century Jack - the oral versions of these songs date fack a century or so earlier than that.
The ones I'm working on now date back to the years following the Irish famine - Burns was collecting songs form Scots peasants earlier than that
Up to the middle of the 19th century literacy was an largely an urban phenomenon and the percentage of people who could read was fairly small
I find the idea of a farmworker going along to the local literate and asking him to interpret the printed words of a song rather.... well!
Travellers were overwhelmingly non-literate and largely outsiders yet they were the most important carriers of our biggest ballads
THe tunes were largely randomly chosen - few ready available printed versions came with tunes
As far as I can make out, the songs that were taken from print (we hae no idea how many were) were given tunes already in use

When push comes to shove, we have no idea who made our folk songs and never will
Our knowledge of the oral tradition dates back only as far as the work done by Sharp and his team, and that is both sparse and gathered at a time when the tradition was being remembered or iften reported from an earlier generation rather than taken down as a living art form
As things stand, we have only common sense as a guide as to who made our folk songs   
It's common sense to me that, rather than the urban, desk-bound hacks (poor poets) working under conveyor-belt conditions having made them, it is far more likely to have been the soldiers, sailors, farm-workers.... rural poor in general that make up the subjects of the songs who were the most likely authors
It took geniuses like Steinbeck, Sinclair and Noonan (Tressell) to write convincing accounts about working life - the hacks with their massed volumes of unsingable songs were as far from that as you could possibly get
If you accept that 'ordinary' people were capable of having made the songs, then you have to concede that they have a far more convincing claim than anybody else

I was extremely patronisingly described as "starry eyed when I quoted MacColl's last moving statement at the end of 'The Song Carriers' series

"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island.
We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries."


MacColl's view was that of virtually all the folk song scholars, so presumably they were all "starry eyed" too
The accusation was aimed at the entire folk repertoire, from 'Frog and the Mouse' to a Second World War song - it has since been adapted to include only the songs being collected from a dying tradition - doesn't leave me with a great deal of confidence in the accuser, I'm afraid.
MacColl's summing up has been verified for me in thirty odd years field work of interviewing singers who lived through oral singing traditions - I'm happy to continue to accept it until a more rational one is produced
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM

FOLK POLICE????

Anyway, the bottom line is that people can't have it both ways; if, as is often claimed, we still have a living folk tradition, then it is legitimate to identify some of MacColl's songs as 'traditional', even though he never made such a claim. If we don't, it isn't - simple as that.
"Who defines folk?"
The term has been defined and fully accepted by those working on the subject since 1846, when it was first used (and immediately generally accepted) by William John Thoms. The 1954 definition was merely a fine tuning to specifically apply it to song and music (this also was immediately widely accepted by those working in the field).
To date, it has never been re-defined to the satisfaction of those involved. The necessary consensus for re-definition does not exist, so the existing one stands and continues to be documented.
So who gets to define it? Nobody - it's been done
Jim Carroll

"Who defines folk?"
The term has been defined and fully accepted by those working on the subject since 1846, when it was first used (and immediately generally accepted) by William John Thoms. The 1954 definition was merely a fine tuning to specifically apply it to song and music (this also was immediately widely accepted by those working in the field).
To date, it has never been re-defined to the satisfaction of those involved. The necessary consensus for re-definition does not exist, so the existing one stands and continues to be documented.
So who gets to define it? Nobody - it's been done
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM

The fact that a song was collected from an illiterate in the late 20th century is no evidence at all that it was handed down orally for centuries.
Who's talking about the late 20th Century Jack


You were. You were describing songs you'd collected.


the oral versions of these songs date back a century or so earlier than that.

You can only know that if somebody wrote them down - if they stopped being purely oral at that moment.


The ones I'm working on now date back to the years following the Irish famine - Burns was collecting songs form Scots peasants earlier than that

And he published them. In books which sold in enormous numbers and got to the remotest corners of the English-speaking world within 10 years of his death. So everybody everywhere learned his versions. Found a version of "A Red Red Rose" that doesn't derive from his?


Up to the middle of the 19th century literacy was an largely an urban phenomenon and the percentage of people who could read was fairly small

It didn't take many. And we know there were enough to provide a living for itinerant chapbook sellers.


I find the idea of a farmworker going along to the local literate and asking him to interpret the printed words of a song rather.... well!

I can't help your lack of imagination. Anybody who could read the Bible could read a chapbook (though perhaps not all of them would want to). That's not a bunch of elite experts.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:26 AM

"You were. You were describing songs you'd collected."
Actually I wasn't - I was describing information we collected, particularly on local song-making, which had all but disappeared
The songs we collected sung by singers who learned them at the beginning of the twentieth century
We know of the existence of an oral tradition as far back as The Venerable Bede - passing songs orally probably predates that
I doubt if the sipngs Burns collected were sokld in enourmous numbers - his own poetry was but Johnson's 'Musical Museum' was somewhat confined in its sales, I would have thought - immaterial anyway
The people Burns Collected his songs from were highly unlikey to have bought them back as, even in Scotland, rural literacy was thin on the ground
One of the pieces we ded gether was from a Traveller ballad seller (the last gasp of the broadside trade) who described taking songs from the oral tradition (his fathers mainly) and reciting them to a printer who then made ballad sheets of them to be sold around the markets of Kerry - an oral tradition in print
I've been told that English farmworkers were far too busy to spendd time making songs, now I'm being told they had time and money to buy broadsides and run around looking for someone to teach them to him
You seem hell bent on wiping out any idea that working people made their songs - I thought I was the one with the "agenda"
Not convinced Jack, and I can't see wy you are
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:33 AM

In 1907 Cecil Sharp observed that the transmission of folk songs and the forms they took when they were collected and attested was the result of three factors: continuity, variation, and selection. These factors were expanded on in 1954 by the International Folk Music Council, which wrote that:

    Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

    The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

    The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning the re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk-character.


One immediate problem I have here is evolved through the process of oral transmission For the last century at least it would probably more correct to substitute aural for oral. If this is true then variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group becomes a deliberate reinvention. I would suspect the more accurate interpretation may be that words are misheard and the tune is slightly mistaken as the song travels from one person to another. Today when a mobile phone can capture both sound and vision flawlessly how can such evolution of a song/tune occur unless deliberate? This would take away a degree of spontaneity that is sort of implicit in the traditional view of song evolution and make it a deliberate cold blooded massacre of the original.
The 1954 definition takes no account of the impact of modern technology on it's perception of the folk process.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:47 AM

I doubt if the sipngs Burns collected were sokld in enourmous numbers - his own poetry was but Johnson's 'Musical Museum' was somewhat confined in its sales, I would have thought - immaterial anyway

I deal with one consequence of that every week - pricing early editions of his works (which always included the songs he collected along with the original stuff). By the time you get to the 1812 editions they're not worth beans.

There is any amount of corroboration that he was a household word all over Britain, Ireland and North America long before the end of the French war. Allusions to his life and work in letters and newspaper articles never needed footnotes. To a lesser extent you could say the same about Tannahill, Campbell, Moore, Dibdin - singable folk-ish poetry got everywhere.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM

I remembered incorrectly when above I said I think the commentary of "Travelling For A Living"refers to 2 or 3 hundred folk clubs " the commentator actually estimates three or four hundred clubs, up and down the country. This is said 12 minutes from the start of the film


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

Burns was on small collector - you seem to have honed in on him to make a far wider point and ignored everything else that has been said.
Collectors and researchers have never questioned that the fol made their songs - Motherwell even warned about tampering with the songs the people made

If you don't believe the folk made folk songs than you need t say that is what you believe and explain why you hold it
This is shadow-boxing Jack

This, from a newspaper cutting (I thin The daily Express) of around 1960 when the club scene was just beginning to flourish
Jim Carroll

SOME STRANGE FACTS ABOUT THE LATEST CRAZE……
JUST HOW INNOCENT ARE SIGNS LIKE THIS
By PETER BISHOP
A NEW TEENAGE CRAZE IS SWEEPING BRITAIN—FOLK MUSIC. BEARDED, DUFFLE-COATED YOUNGSTERS SQUAT ON THE FLOOR OF CELLAR CLUBS LISTENING TO FOLK SONGS TELLING OF LOVE, OF DEATH, OF OPPRESSION.
There are more than 200 of these clubs in Britain, with 250,000 members. More clubs open every week.
But this boom has some people very worried. For many of the movement's big names—singers, agents or record sellers—are either Communists or they hold extreme left-wing views.
And it is feared that, with folk music attracting more and more young people, there is a danger of their being wooed by Red propaganda. Just how great is that danger? Last week I took a close look at the folk music world.
There is no doubt that the Communist and left-wing element among its leading personalities is powerful.
For example, Topic Records, Ltd., of Hampstead, London, the leading company specialising in folk music, is controlled by a top intellectual Communist.'
He is 62-year-old Alan Bush, a rugged, bearded composer of serious music. His work is familiar and well liked in Russia. He has been there many times as a composer, conductor and as a fraternal; representative at the congress of Communist Composers.
Folk music fans who want to buy the latest records can go to a shop in New Oxford Street specialising in folk songs. It is owned and run by Collet's Holdings, Ltd. Collet's also run several book shops selling left-wing publications.
The company was once described in the Communist "Daily Worker" as a "commercial firm, but not a capitalist one," with its directors taking neither dividends nor profits.
The Folksong Agency, in Paddington, London, represents such top artists in the folk field as Ewan MacColl, Dominic Behan and Peggy Seeger.

'REVOLUTIONARY'
It is run by Bruce Dunnett, a Communist. He told me: "I have been a member of the Communist Party for many years.
"But I can assure you that politics and folk music don't mix.
"There are left revolutionary songs, of course. But then there are also traditional songs, songs of love and songs of protest.
"I am interested only in promoting and developing interest in folk music.
“If I or any other Communist, or Tory for that matter, tried to trot out dogma at a folk music club or concert they would soon tell me to shut up."
Mr. Dunnett agreed that folk music circles have a definite left-wing atmo¬sphere.
"That is because most folk songs have been, and are even now being, created by ordinary working people," he said.
The biggest name among folk singers in Britain is Ewan MacColl, a. bearded ex- playwright from Salford, Lancs, and a Communist,   
He sings in clubs up and down the country on such themes as the sad Irish workmen who laboured on the Ml, and on Timothy. Evans, the man hanged for a murder which some people; believe he did not commit.

CANDLELIGHT
MacColl, aged 45, told me: “Of course there are Communists and left-wing people who go to folk-song clubs.
"But then there are also Tories, Socialists, and Liberals. They go to listen to the music, not politics.
"They are inclined to tie in¬dividualistic, who would make known their objections if they thought attempts were being made to organise them politically or any other way."
Another folk singer is Karl Dallas. He specialises in the guitar and contributes articles to the "Daily Worker."
Now let's take a look at one of the clubs. The 200-strong Swindon Folksingers Club is run by, Ted Poole, aged 37, and his wife, Ivy. Mr. Poole is a Communist. He told me:
"The music we sing is left-wing because it comes from the workers.
"Most of the songs reflect the thoughts, emotions, oppres¬sions, passions and struggles of the working peoples."
The club meets on Friday nights in a candle-lit room at the rear of the Greyhound, Hotel, Swindon. It costs 2s. 6d. to join and admission to sessions is 3s.—non-members 4s
Mr. Poole added: “There is no sinister political motive in the background."
Finally, I talked to 42-year-old Eric Winter, folk singer, journalist, authority on folk music, and editor of a lively folk song magazine called "Sing."    .
He told me: "It's true to say that folk music and the clubs have a strong left-wing atmosphere.
"Many people who enjoy folk music are anti-Bomb, anti-apartheid, anti most things
“They’re not sure what they are for- but they would resent any attempt to introduce politics of any sort.”
So even if the Communist Party is contemplating a planned program to recruit from the folk-singing fans, it seems they will be out of luck.
BUT CLEARLY, IT IS A SITUATION WHICH NEEDS WATCHING


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:26 AM

The point is not who made them (which is often unknowable and not a very interesting question) but how they were transmitted. You are saying that print never figured in the process. I am saying that it almost always did; that songs moved to and fro between oral transmission and paper. Steve Gardham has documented the process quite thoroughly - you can trace features in orally collected songs which have to have gone through a known printed version.

For tunes, Dunlay and Greenberg's book on Cape Breton fiddle music goes into the sources quite well. So does Alois Fleischmann's "Sources of Irish Traditional Music", though he's less interested in tracing through the whole process.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

Jack Campin said : "The point is not who made them (which is often unknowable and not a very interesting question)"

Are you saying that knowing something about the person who wrote a folksong is " not a very interesting question"?
Surely, not.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM

"and not a very interesting question"
Not to you maybe - I think that, if they are to be recognised as 'The Voice of the People' it is pretty important to have some idea as of whether 'the people' wrote them or not
That may not interest you - it does me.

"You are saying that print never figured in the process."
Where did I ever say that ?
I've just described exactly how print figured in the process by the Travellers trade of ballad selling
Steve Gardham has produced earliest printed versions which says nothing whatever about whether they existed before those dates
Some of the ballad motifs occur in Homer we recorded a Cante-fable which echoes a tale dating back to Ancient Egypt, The Constant Farmer's Son/Bramble Briar features as one of Boccaccio's Tales, Lord Gregory has been linked to Chaucer and Lord Bateman to Thomas Becket's father
I these stories have been around that long, there is no reason why they shouldn't have existed as songs
MacColl includes Broadsides as a method of both distribution and creation - I have no argument with that
What I do have an issue with is to what extent.
teve Gardham has now arrived at his late 19th century dating - had he do so in the first place I would have no great is with it though I may quibble about the percentages
He has admitted that the oral tradition/broadside transmission/creation claim is a two-way street I can only see one-way traffic
We simply don't know definitively and can only make an educated guess based on what little we do have and the work of previous researchers, including those who were in the position to find out whether the songs they were researching originated on the then active broadside presses - Child's "diamonds in a dunghill" statement made it clear where he stood
The distressing thing about the new crowd is that they have set about dismantling and debunking he pioneers to fit their own idea in - a process started by the once discredited Dave Harker   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:20 AM

You are saying that print never figured in the process.
Where did I ever say that ?


Here:

I've spent the last year or so working on Irish Child Ballads
Some if the ones I have been dealing with were sung by non-literate Travellers who hvae kept them alive for centuries


You're implying transmission was entirely oral.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Tunesmith
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:35 AM

"You're implying transmission was entirely oral"
Really? What about the word "some"?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

Thanks tunesmith
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

'I'm sorry officer...'

'I wonder if you realise back there you were going Ralph McTell miles an hour in a Ewan MacColl restricted zone. Youg feller me lad, you could have caused a nasty accident causing death or serious injury to innocent folk traditions....'


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

The people Burns Collected his songs from were highly unlikey to have bought them back as, even in Scotland, rural literacy was thin on the ground

Not so. One of the greatest benefits of overthrowing the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland's Reformation was the establishment at the insistence of the new Presbyterian Church, of schools in every parish in every village and town. These schools were free and open to all. By the turn of the 17th century Scotland, as far as its general population went was the most literate country in Europe.

Quite a number of songs written by Burns were written to save pipe tunes which due to the times could so easily have disappeared forever. He also sometimes adapted local stories for the lyrics of the songs put to these.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM

Happy to accept your word on that Guest Don't think it changes my general point though
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:23 AM

though I may quibble about the percentages."
you are a regular quibbler.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:48 AM

Quite a number of songs written by Burns were written to save pipe tunes which due to the times could so easily have disappeared forever. He also sometimes adapted local stories for the lyrics of the songs put to these.

That's not true. Burns got his tunes from published sources - he didn't need to write the tune down when sending a song to a publisher, he could just name it and the publisher could easily find it. I don't think there is any song in his entire output that used a Highland pipe tune - the pipe tunes he did use were Lowland ones also current as song airs or fiddle tunes.

He also didn't use rare tunes. He generally picked currently fashionable ones: it made sense to ride the wave when something like "Miss Admiral Gordon's Strathspey" was being played everywhere.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

I started going to folk clubs around 1970, when I was still at school. At that time I lived in Essex, and in addition to the Chelmsford club referred to in Hagman's list, there was also a club in Brentwood (run by Geoff and Pennie Harris) and a singers' club at Blackmore. Later a club started up at Margaretting. There were one or two other fairly shortlived clubs, including "contemporary folk" club in Brentwood. My school had its own folk club in partnership with a couple of other nearby schools, which was where I first began performing. I could easily visit at least three clubs a week, and several more with a little more effort.

Despite the concerns expressed about "left-wing indoctrination" I was aware of very little political activity and most people were interested in singing traditional songs rather than ones addressing modern social issues.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM

Howard
Unfortunately (maybe) politics of one sort or another goes through both traditional song and the revival as 'Blackpool' goes through rock - the very idea of a 'Voice of the People' is a politico/social statement in itself
The few patriotic songs in the repertoire are poltical statements in favour of the status quo
Our poaching and transportation songs are responses to the enclosures, songs of social misalliance are statements on class differences
The ballad, Tifitie's Annie reflects the changes being wrought when the power of the gentry was being replaced by that of the merchant class...
While not commenting on these situations,they certainly reflect them - some of the singers had no illusions of how political they were
Harry Cox sang 'Betsy the Serving Maid' for Lomax and spat out, "And that's what they thought of us - worthless"

The revival was largely set into motion by politicos, first the Workers Music Association (which later established Topic), Lloyd, MacColl, Henderson... even Luke Kelly wore his politics on his sleeve
It's as hard to separate the early revival from C.N.D. as it is the Civil Rights Movement from its songs
The earliest songs published are the largely anonymous ones to be in Thomas Wright's 'Political Songs of England from the reign of John to that of Edward II
MacColl, Seeger, Rossleson and the rest weer borrowing from a very old tradition to make their songs
I think the problem sometimes is that they disapprove of the "wrong type of political songs".
You want to see political songs at their most effective, try Terry Moylan's magnificent 'The Indignant muse'
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 07:16 AM

Howard,there were two clubs in Brentwood, the second was not as you describe contemporary, this was at the railway, i used to sing there regularly and i sang trad unaccompanied material, i never saw you there ever, i met you first at chelmsford, there was also a club at havering , where i booked yourself, nic jones,doloreskeane and john faulkner, colin cater tom mconville bob fox, all trad, but the booking policy was mixed


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:29 AM

Was there not a club at The Castle at Brentwood?

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM

@Sandman
I think you are a bit out on the timeline.

The club at The Railway was earlier, I think it had already folded when I first went to Brentwood Folk Club as a teenager in 68. Certainly nobody ever mentioned it as a place to go. The "contemporary" club ran at the Arts Centre in the 70s.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Ray
That was the club that Howard mentioned, run by Geoff and Pennie around 1970 and previously by Nic Jones,


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:40 PM

Do you know. I stopped visiting Mudflap for a long time, due largely to the type pettiness which has sprung up in this thread.
Sadly having decided to return a bit more often, I find the the same people seem to be flaunting the same chips on the same shoulders as they always have.
FFS get a grip, and either grow up or take your inability to see anybody else's point of view, somewhere where it doesn't impinge on ordinary decent folkies.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

If you can't discuss folk song on Mudcat where can you discuss it - or maybe we shouldn't and go with the flow?
Jim Caroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

There's discussing folk song, and then there's pontificating, not to mention the inability to admit that someone else might have a valid point. It's not so much the discussion, it's the puerile tone of it.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:03 PM

"There's discussing folk song, and then there's pontificating
No John
There's discussing and there's standing on the sidelines telling others what they should and shouldn't be discussing
Join in or don't - you can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:08 PM

Isn't it strange that those who shout "folk police" loudest are quite of those who fit the description best ?
Maybe not !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

John Mackenie wrote:-
Do you know. I stopped visiting Mudflap for a long time, due largely to the type pettiness which has sprung up in this thread.

I see this as a real problem on Mudcat. It seems to me that there are fewer people posting on Mudcat than there used to be. I know that I post much more rarely than I used to. I reckon that if I were to leave Mudcat for half a year and then came back, then before logging on I could predict who would be saying what about who actually wrote the folk songs in the first place, about the niceties of definition and who was feeling insulted by who and why. Circumlocutive exchanges from entrenched positions would continue to prevent resolution of discussions.

Meanwhile we would be six months further down the road to Global Warming Armageddon and we still could not be sure which songwriter's compositions were acceptable in folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM

That's what I just can't get to the bottom of, Vic. Why are some contemporary compositions acceptable while some are not? Who gets to decide which is which? If folk clubs are non prescriptive, who enforces what is acceptable? And if it sounds like folk, looks like folk and smells like folk, what the **** does it matter who wrote it anyway?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

I went to folk clubs that everybody seems to have forgotten.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:04 PM

I went to folk clubs that everybody seems to have forgotten.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Folk festival do not seem to be doinmg as well as they used to


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM

And if it sounds like folk, looks like folk and smells like folk, what the **** does it matter who wrote it anyway?

Seems reasonable to me! Surely the boundary between country and folk is also a very amorphous one. The transatlantic sessions would not have worked unless the two were intimately linked.
For example the STREETS OF LAREDO and https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=22885


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

All this faffing and bullying and not one single response to the fact that the clubs that cater for genuine folk song are fighting for breath (except we are all dying off - probably right of course, but an indication of failure)
EFDSS has walked away from the real thing, the New age researchers have decided we got we wrng or made it all up, plenty of insults and a few excuses
Confirmation enough, I think and not particularly hopeful
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:56 PM

Incidentally - in response to the decades old thread - nobody defined folk - it defines itself by its very nature - the clue is oin two wotrds "traditional" - a process that creates and ploriferates folk song; and "folk" - the people who made it and passed it on
Plenty of books on the subject and enough genuine folk singers on record as having described what we are talking about.
Those who don't know what it is don't want to - nothing much you can do about that
G'night all
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Hagman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 07:56 PM

From Jim's post above:

"SOME STRANGE FACTS ABOUT THE LATEST CRAZE…… JUST HOW INNOCENT ARE SIGNS LIKE THIS By PETER BISHOP
...
There are more than 200 of these clubs in Britain, with 250,000 members."

So, on average, each club had 1,250 members?

Either the rooms above pubs in those days were really big, or newspaper sub-editing in 1960 was just as bad as it is today.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:02 AM

Sorry to labour the point, Jim, but if you say things like "clubs that cater for genuine folk song are fighting for breath" you need to be consistent about what genuine folk song is. You have said yourself that Ewan MacColl did not write folk songs so anything by him cannot be a 'genuine folk song'. Yet you say his songs are acceptable in folk clubs. If his songs are acceptable then other contemporary songs are as well. I ask once again, who decides what is acceptable and what is not?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:21 AM

Hagman
It was an politically agenda-based article reflecting the suspicion of the establishment media towards a strongly independent musical movement that in those days couldn't be controlled or trusted - happy days, as far as I'm concerned.
I have no doubt those figures were arrived at with minimal effort and by someone with total ignorance or interest of either the scene or the music it once represented
The idea that 'ordinary people' (no such animal) could actually put their own thoughts and aspirations into verse must have sent them scurrying shitless for their shotguns and bullet-proof vests
My late friend, Charles Parker, once put it in a nutshell - "A traditional love song well sung is a fist in the face of the establishment"

Now, it seems, many of today's folkies measure success by how many times they appear on the establishment media or how many CDs they can sell or how many paid gigs they can get - not a happy situation for what was once a fresh, new grass-roots movement based on the idea that anybody can sing and our music was as good as any ever produced, if not better

In my opinion, a half decent history of the folk revival has yet to be written
Mike Brocken's effort is far too one-sided and based on gossip rather than researched facts
'Singing From the floor' I found skimpy and, based on my own experiences, superficial and inaccurate
A radio programme on the history of Topic Records, 'Little Red Label' was summed up in one magnificent statement, "Ewan MacColl" (the singer who composed up to three hundred songs, and probably far more) "didn't like new songs".
A knowledgeable but detached history of the revival, such as Peter Cox's history of the Radio Ballads, 'Set Into Song', would help enormously clear up many of the myths, misunderstandings and ill-feeling surrounding who did and didn't do what when....
I've just been given an excellent embryo article on the early days of the folk revival by a friend - I look forward with some interests to see the reception it will get
I can already see the crucifixes, holy water and garlic being got ready
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:40 AM

"you need to be consistent about what genuine folk song is. "
I've already done that Dave
I have never at any time said that genuine folk song can't exist alongside songs created by using folk styles as a template - in fact I have repeatedly said I believe it to be essential
I see no reason on earth why someone who can listen to 'The Flying Cloud' with pleasure can't get equal enjoyment out of say, 'Shellback' or 'The Tenant Farmer' or Leon Rossleson's 'World Turned Upside Down'
On the other hand, it is totally beyond me why traditional songs should be lumped in with poor renditions of Buddy Holly or early sentimantal tear-jerkers - or anything anybody cares to hang the 'folk' label on for personal convenience   
If you give your music a name, that name has to mean something or not only are you conning the punters but you are destroying the future of the real thing (as is becoming increasingly apparent)

The separation of traditional and non-traditional song is not necessary for the clubs (as long as they relate to one another in some way) but it is essential for research purposes
I do both - I take great pleasure in singing and listening to folk or folk-related songs and always have, but I am also deeply interested in the role that the folk arts played in the social history of the British and Irish people
I need to be able to recognise and understand the differences between the two if I am going to be able to discuss my beliefs and finding with others
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 04:48 AM

Now, about this 60's folk club boom mentioned in the title of this thread.
Was that the one where we all sang Tom Paxton, Bob Dylan and Ewan MacColl? Or was it the mythical one, where we all sang Thousands or More,and the Trimdon Grange Explosion, endlessly?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

As I have said before, I first saw Ralph McTell perform streets of london" in the Surbiton Assembly Rooms.
Proclaimed to be the largest folk club in the UK(23000 members at the time it closed)


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

"Was that the one where we all sang Tom Paxton, Bob Dylan and Ewan MacColl? "
You may have done - we sand MacColl, Enoch Kent, Pete Smith, Miles Wooton... and all the other dozens of writers composing using trditional styles
The Paxtonites and Dylanites had little time for our songss and we weren't particularly impressed with theirs so they set up their clubs and we set up ours - no animosty particularly, just a mutual agreement that we were doing something different
I wentt ot both for a time till the reall stuff began to occupy most of my time and pleasure
Now both have been swept aside by the 'singing horses' and electric soup crowd
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

Jim, the choice is not between the obvious folk style and the obvious non-folk style. There are plenty of songs and artists that are somewhere in between Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly. It is not as black and white as you suggest. There are grey areas in between and it is those that I am questioning. Who decides which is acceptable at folk clubs and which is not? There cannot be an arbitrary line between the two that suits all people so help us out here. What side of the divide do artists like Ralph McTell, Eric Bogle and Anthony John Clarke fall on? Should their songs be sung in folk clubs or not and why?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:24 AM

I saw Ralph at Surbiton too Iain. I was booked there once (only once you'll not be surprised to hear) and was one of the residents in latter days, along with Hector Gilchrist.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Thanks Dick, I'd forgotten about the Railway. I remember going to a club near Brentwood station to see Vin Garbutt, was that the one? I don't recall while I didn't go there more often.

Your excellent club at Havering was just outside my normal radius so although I visited fairly frequently I was not a regular. I'd thought of this club as one of the others I could reach with a little more effort. i remember also sometimes going to clubs in Romford, Upminster and Southend.

The point I was trying to illustrate was that at that time there was a host of clubs in that area. Between them they offered a full range of music across the whole spectrum of "folk", and there were plenty of opportunities to hear traditional music. The standards were usually reasonably high, and no matter how tiny the room (I'm particularly thinking of Blackmore) floor singers were expected to come to the stage to do their bit. Good days.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

Jim I agree with much of what you say about politics in folk song. Even the songs which are simply about love, work or bloody murder shed some light on social conditions and can be interpreted in a political way. However not everyone sees things through a permanent political prism and many people simply enjoy the songs for their own sake.

It is also a matter of history that the revival in its early days was particularly driven by people who were politically active, and for whom folk music was part of their activism - hence the slightly hysterical "reds under the bed" article someone quoted earlier. You have written about groups you were involved with where the politics were as important as the music. However at the clubs I visited politics as such were seldom openly expressed. I have no idea of the political views of most of the people who attended these clubs, even though I got to know many of them well. We were there for the music.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM

"Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly"
Sorry Dave - I can see little point in continuing this discussion when we are so far apart
Th two bear bear no relation to each other and there is no common ground between them
One is commercial based and manufactured for sale, the other is narrative based and intended to carry emotions, experiences and opinions
No reason you can't 'like' both (I used to) but they are as different as chalk and cheese and mixing them is bound to damage both
You may as well say that because peol,e like and sing light opera thnn if as a viable candidate for folk song venues
Are you saying that - if not, why not ?

Howard, I was interested in your comments on floor singers - my experience to
Everybody-gets-a-go singarounds were new kids on the block on my scene - you weer expected to have put in the effort before you were lel loose on an audience - fair both on them and you - who enjoys making an arsehole of yourself in public
The number of times I've don that I want to forget
You can strut you stuff among friends without having them make the effort to come out to see you - informal singing can be an incredible way of developing your skills given the good will and ability to discuss your performances
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM

Jim, you have misconstrued what I actually said once again. I am not comparing the two. Read my post. What I said is There are plenty of songs and artists that are somewhere in between Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly. It is not as black and white as you suggest. I know that the two bear no relation to each other. That is the point. I am looking at the artists that lie between the two and asking where do you draw the line.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

Dave wrote:-
It is not as black and white as you suggest. There are grey areas in between and it is those that I am questioning. Who decides which is acceptable at folk clubs and which is not? There cannot be an arbitrary line between the two that suits all people so help us out here.

Breakfast time in the Smith house, some time in the early 1970s. Sitting at the table are Vic and Bert Lloyd - he has sung at our folk club the evening before. Vic had been outlining his confusion about what exactly constitituted a folk song and what didn't. His points closely resembled what he has just quoted from Dave. Bert's reply was an analogy that Vic remembers clearly more than 45 years later.
"Look out of your window. I think that we can agree that it is daytime. If we were still sitting here at 10 o'clock tonight, we would look out of the window and agree that it was nighttime. However if you were to ask a hundred people to nominate the exact moment when day became night, you would get a hundred different answers. It is the same with the 'What is folk song?' question.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just embrace Bert's Vive la différence stance? But this is Mudcat so we cannot.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly"
Sorry Dave - I can see little point in continuing this discussion when we are so far apart
Th two bear bear no relation to each other and there is no common ground between them
One is commercial based and manufactured for sale, the other is narrative based and intended to carry emotions, experiences and opinions


Would anyone know if there is any way of comparing the amounts of money earned from their songwriting of both Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire, both before and after their deaths? If we were to have those figures then we would know which had made the most money (i.e. were the most commercial) by researching the facts rather than belief based on unsupported personal preference.
My guess would be that the amounts earned by both these excellent songwriters, both great favourites of mine, would not differ by a great amount.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:49 AM

You have to be joking Vic (even if it was material)
Ewan and Peg kept head above water with occasional tours - apart from First Time Ever which came late in life and was a total surprise, the royalties they got from songs was minimal
After Ewan died Peggy gave me a tape of 'First Time' recorded by 'pop names' - they had receive payment for less than half of them
Tey didn't write songs to make money - most of which made zilch
Immaterial - the songs appeal to different people for different reasons
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM

Thanks, Vic. I'm glad the esteemed Mr Lloyd agrees :-) I am more than happy to embrace the difference but, as you say, this is the Mudcat after all!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM

they had receive payment for less than half of them
Sadly this is an all too common experience amongst songwriters of all genres and stages of fame. Then there are the well documented occurrences of artists approaching songwriters to say that they would record their song providing the composing rights were split 50/50 with the singer. I've even seen a letter sent to a songwriting friend of mine which brazenly stated, "After all, a half of something is better than a whole of nothing!" Sad to say, he accepted the offer.
All business tends to be dirty and full of crooks, but the music business is well up near the top of the list.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:15 AM

Incidentally,
"James Henry Miller"
The use of a name officially changed by a leading contributor to our understanding and enjoyment of an important branch of the arts nearly seven decades ago - three decades after the singers death, for me sums up the small-minded spite and in-fighting that has often made the revival the unpleasant place it has become - are we now going to have to include Robert Zimmerman in our discussions (why do I doubt it)?
What next - Ethel Gumm and Archie leach maybe ?
It really is time the folk scene embraced adulthood
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I tried an internet searches for "royalty earnings of..." both singers in question and, perhaps understandably, neither threw up any figures and only in the case of Holly were there any significant hits. There were a number of sites detailing how the inexperienced young Texan had been ripped of by the big record labels. The stories are horrific if not unexpected.
A quote from one said, Holly only received 16 2/3s percent of the songwriter royalties from The Crickets first hit, “That’ll Be the Day.” when it was well known that he wrote both the lyrics and the melody.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM

You keep doing this, Jim. You latch onto one small part of a post and use it as a straw man. You used my 'Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly' entirely our of the context in which they were mentioned and you have now zoomed in on one small section of Vic's 'Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire'. Everyone knows who both are just as they know who Robert Zimmerman, Harry Webb and Reginald Kenneth Dwight are. Buggered if I know Ethel Gumm though.

Alexa, who is...


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:34 AM

and tolerance


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

Can you explain why mentioning the birth names of Archie Leach, Robert Zimmerman, James Henry Miller, Ethel Gumm and Charles Hardin Holley can be construed as "small-minded spite and in-fighting that has often made the revival the unpleasant place it has become"?

The two birth names that I mentioned were given in the context of recording royalty contracts and I imagine that those were the names that - legally - were likely to appear on those contracts. When my wife is asked to sign any document with "Christine Margaret" as the forenames, she has to pause before she signs it and realises that it refers to her because she has been "Tina" since she was a baby.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:28 AM

"You keep doing this, Jim."
Keep doing what Dave - I have challenged you on majotr points and you persistently ignore them take up incidental points yourself
My points are these
Folk song has been regarded a peoples creative art for well over a century
It has been identified, researched and documented and defined as being distinct from all other art forms -
it is unique both in its origins and its sound - easily recognisable
By many/most, it is regarded as a carrier of social history
It comes from a time when people weer active participants in their culture rather than the passive recipients they have become - the makers and re-makers of their songs and music
The fact that it is in the public domain is indication enough of its recognised uniqueness....
Given all this, you argue for lumping it in with commercially manufactured pop songs that have long outlived their shelf life (totally neglecting to even mention the damage and confusion that this has generated on the folk scene)
I referred to it because you brought it up, but Buddy Holly isn't by any means the only one to feature in many fok club performances
I was at a folk concert in Scotland a few years ago when a singer whose singing I enjoy immensely sent the evening crashing in flames by finishing it off with two Cliff Richards numbers - as good as the night was, those are he songs that stick in my memory - a spectacular anti-climax to an otherwise highly enjoyable evening   
Do you know any other art form that would tolerate such bahavour ?
Imagine an evening of Mozart String Quartets being topped off with a couple of Scott Joplin numbers
I love both - in their place - when I go out in the evening I expect to be afforded the choice of what I listen to otherwise I might as well stay at home and listen to may own collection - which, I believe many thousands of folk enthusiasts have long been doing

Vic
MacColl changed his name by deed poll many decades ago - he had his reasons for doing so
hat is the name he operated under and has been long racognised by - it's only crumblies like us who know why Jimmy Miller was over half a century ago, yet his name is still used, along with his war record and a song he made when a large slice of the world people revered the man he was singing about - the world has moved on - some of us haven't it would appear
I don't give a toss whether people share my liking for MacColl and his singing
What I do care about is he fact that MacColl and his co-researchers left an invaluable body of work on folk singing that is nigh near impossible to discuss without having to scramble over this almost impassable heap of personalised garbage
'Tina', 'Jim', 'Vic', 'Dave' are friendly diminutives of real names, Jimmy Miller died sometime in the 1940s yet his name still pops up three decades after Ewan MacColl's death - about time that was put to res too, doncha think ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:33 AM

Meant to ask John - what are we supposed to tolerate ?
I mt opinion he 'singing horse' approach to folk song has all but killed off the clubs where you could go and hear folk songs
Singers on this forum have described feeling out of place when singing unaccompanied traditional songs
Not so long ago a contribute complained that long traditional ballads weer inappropriate" in the folk clubs he was trying to organise a tour in
Is that what we are expected to tolerate ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:45 AM

Gasps of horror on the folk scene and Mudcat!!!!!
Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. Leaving aside the personal bickering and the references to birth names which are pretty pointless anyway if you think about it.

Traditional songs in particular are indeed in the most part quite different beasts to those produced during the second revival by the likes of Ewan and all those who followed in his wake. They have evolved in a different way in an enormously different era with different influences.

The 54 descriptors are perfectly good as long as you don't throw around thoughtless words like 'unique'. To be 'unique' every song would have to be one side of the fence or the other and this is daft.

The other meaning of folksong, the one 99% of the population uses, is much broader, but perfectly valid. Most of it hasn't gone through any of the processes described in '54' so cannot qualify for that meaning. That doesn't make it any less valid.

In the 60s and since, most reasonable people have used the adjectives 'traditional' and 'contemporary' to describe these 2 different beasts, both types widely included and accepted on the 'folk scene'.

Now what went wrong on Mudcat that produced about a trillion posts arguing the toss?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

Keep doing what Dave Quoting out of context. As you just did then :-) I explained fully and if you had quoted the full section

You keep doing this, Jim. You latch onto one small part of a post and use it as a straw man. You used my 'Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly' entirely our of the context in which they were mentioned and you have now zoomed in on one small section of Vic's 'Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire'.

I am sure you could have answered the question yourself.

Your other points are quite valid apart from Given all this, you argue for lumping it in with commercially manufactured pop songs that have long outlived their shelf life which is something I have never done. I have challenged you before to show us where I have done this. You failed to do so then and I know you will fail again this time because I have never made that claim.

I have always said that both traditional and contemporary songs can be sung at the same club and I fully appreciate that not all contemporary songs would be suitable. Just as not all traditional songs would be suitable for a 'non folk' audience. What I am desperately trying to get out of you is the answer to my question as to where the line should be drawn. Which contemporary songs are acceptable and which are not.

You are missing the point altogether with the Ewan and Buddy statement so let me try and put it another way. We all know that Ewan's songs are acceptable while Buddy's songs are not. There are literally millions of songs between those two extremes. Which of those can be sung at folk clubs and which can not. Who decides which to accept into the annals of folk and which to reject? I suspect it is the audience that have the ultimate say but I am interested in what other people think.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM

"Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. "
Is there any need fro this nastiness Steve
My world was one were we cooperated and shared our ideas and not tried to talk each other down
Dave Harker seems to have left his nasty hand-prints over today's scene
I still don't understand why '54' should be an issue with the new age researchers while most of us old school hardly refer to it
Of course our folk songs are unique - those who think otherwise simply haven't been listening
Nothing like 99% of the population know, care or ever refer to folk song (there go those mythical percentages again) - one of our great failings
"Traditional and contemporary" had its uses even though it didn't stand close examination
We had Traveller singers refusing to sing fifty year old Country and Western songs because the were not 'the old songs' but wite happy to describe Traveller-made songs composed within a year or so of their being made because they considered them traditional artifacts of their culture
All irrelevant to this discussion anyway - we seem to have a revival that prefers Taylor Swift to Joseph Taylor
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

i have never heard of taylor swift, but howe many people other than Martin Carthy champion, JosephTaylor


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear. Personally I wouldn't want to sing a 20 verse ancient ballad to a general non-folk audience, unless they were expecting something unusual.
I mostly sing in popular singarounds nowadays, unless booked, and I tailor my songs initially for variety, and dependent on what has just been sung before my turn comes around. Because there is usually a number of visitors there I'll try to sing some well-known songs they can join in with, or something obviously entertaining in other ways.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:19 AM

"I have always said that both traditional and contemporary songs can be sung at the same club a"
Isn't this what I have been saying all along Dave - could have swoen I've said it repeatedly
It depends on how they relate to one another - or even if they do,
****** if I can see how Buddy Holly et al fits into all this
Imagine what would happen if you got a bunch of pop fans turning up and being given a night of ballads and narrative songs
The genres not are not only miles apart in their utterances contradict one other - easy listening to attention demanding
Throw in poorly performed pop songs and you've lost them forever
I sometimes think this drive to pass off dead pop songs as 'folk' has more to do with elderly folkies trying to relive their youths raher than artistic reality
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:25 AM

"how many people other than Martin Carthy champion, Joseph Taylor"
Quite true Dick - and thereby hangs the problem
In my world everybody knew who he was and what he sang - and Sam - and Harry - and Walter- and Cecilia.... and the rest
I remember being involved in one of these arguments with someone who thought John Strachan was a Scottish footballer - maybe he was, but the one I was referring to was the great Scots ballad singer   
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM

So, we are agreed that contemporary songs are welcome at folk clubs. That is one bridge crossed. Now, how about the next one.

Which contemporary songs are acceptable, which are not, who decides and how?

Forget Buddy Holly if he just confusing you. His name, along with Ewan MacColl's was only being used to illustrate the different types of contemporary songs anyway.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Vic Smith wrote:

"Breakfast time in the Smith house, some time in the early 1970s. Sitting at the table are Vic and Bert Lloyd - he has sung at our folk club the evening before. Vic had been outlining his confusion about what exactly constitituted a folk song and what didn't. His points closely resembled what he has just quoted from Dave. Bert's reply was an analogy that Vic remembers clearly more than 45 years later.

"Look out of your window. I think that we can agree that it is daytime. If we were still sitting here at 10 o'clock tonight, we would look out of the window and agree that it was nighttime. However if you were to ask a hundred people to nominate the exact moment when day became night, you would get a hundred different answers. It is the same with the 'What is folk song?' question."

He said much the same in the documentary

A portrait of folk singer A.L. Lloyd by Barry Gavin at 48:20


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

"So, we are agreed that contemporary songs are welcome at folk clubs."
Only if they relate - there's has never been an argument about that Dave
About a third of my repertoire is made up of contemporary songs
It's pop songs past their sell-by date and Victorian tear-jerkers I have problem with
The sound and function of the songs is the deciding factor for me - any evening requires a homogeneous whole if it is going to hang together and satisfy those who attend
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:49 AM

Jim,
    Although this point strays from the thread subject, surely a song about a disaster or event that happened many years ago or about an historic, notorious character and was written at that time is in good company with any newly composed song that relates to modern events. Disasters are disasters. I have a tape somewhere with Martin Carthy singing about the Falklands War and I hope he continues to perform contemporary songs.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM

I remember being involved in one of these arguments with someone who thought John Strachan was a Scottish footballer - maybe he was, but the one I was referring to was the great Scots ballad singer

I hope I may be permitted to say that they were both the same person. The farmer and ballad singer John Strachan who sang at the first People's Ceilidh in Edinburgh in 1951 and judging by the reception that he received on the recordings of the event by Alan Lomax was outstandingly well received by an enthusiatic audience was in his younger days also a semi-pro footballer in the Highland League.
And taking this diversion of what Stuart Hall called "The Beautiful Game" in 1958 a stage further.....

When was the first live radio commentary on a football game?
1927
Who were the teams and where was it played?
Aberdeen V. Glasgow Celtic played at Pittodrie Stadium
What was the result?
Aberdeen won 2-0
And who was the commentator?
Yes! It was the same..... John Strachan!
No recording obviously, but wouldn't I have loved to have heard John's rich Doric Aberdonian language - very similar to my grandmother's - describing a football match.
...and wasn't the previous matter resolved by the admission that there had been a confusion between John Strachan and one of Scotland's greatest footballers, Gordon Strachan?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM

Yes, I fully understand that, Jim. I think you may have answered my question with

The sound and function of the songs is the deciding factor for me - any evening requires a homogeneous whole if it is going to hang together and satisfy those who attend

It is the sound and function for you. Others may think differently.

I am no longer a folk club organiser but when I was we had a fairly successful club. It still is but that is beside the point. If I was still organiser there and wanted to keep my core audience, attract new members and satisfy the needs of a very important visitor, Mr Jim Carroll, what contemporary songs should I showcase and which should I avoid? No need for specifics and take it as read that you don't want anything that has been in the pop charts. What generic sound and function does the trick?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM

"I hope I may be permitted to say that they were both the same person."
Didn't know that Vic - thanks
I'd always assumed he was talking about Gordon Strachan
THe proof of the pudding lies in the eating - if you can think you can lure young people into folk clubs with badly performed and out of date pop songs mixed in with narrative songs that require attention if they are going to work good luck with that one (from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there
I believe, based on personal experience, that the removal of the identity of folk songs from the folk clubs drove thousands of us away from the scene and led to the dreadful contusion that surrounds the term 'folk'

John
"is in good company with any newly composed song that relates to modern events."
Of course they are and very welcome, but I can think of no pop songs that do so
The songs that did work and fit in perfectly for me were ones like 'The Hull Trawler Disaster' or 'Grey October', or Guthrie's 'Deportees', or Jack Warshaw's 'Grape Picker's Tragedy' or, on a lesser scale, Pete Smith's'Clayton Aniline' - or even the anonymous Munich air disaster song, 'Flowers of Manchester'... many songs of this ilk were regularly performed in our clubs and welcomed with open arms - I sang several of them myself
We have a friend living in our market Town, who is a member of one the great dynasties of traditional singers - a household name
He came to our house a few years ago to discuss some of his songs with a view to making a CD - Pat and I were moved almost to tears to hear his own composition about a refugee fleeing the incredibly nasty situation in former Yugoslavia
He recently told me of his admiration for MacColl's 'Fields of Vietnam' (I suspect he was drawn to it because Ewan used Robert Cinnamon's beautiful epic-sounding air for 'Napoleon Bonaparte'
For us, these are examples of traditional forms being used to create new songs
Whether they will ever become folk songs isn't in our hands, nor should it be - nobody has the right to declare a folk song 'folk" - that's the job of 'the folk'
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM

... the anonymous Munich air disaster song, 'Flowers of Manchester'...
I always heard and thought that "Flowers of Manchester" was written by Eric Winter, the Editor of Sing magazine. This website would seem to bear this out.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

Buddy Holly probably grew up nearer to folk and rural traditional singers than most people in England. I don't think you would have to look deeply into his early work to discern traditional song patterns.

he sounds like a hillbilly to me.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:32 PM

from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there
What links? What club?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

And Didn't Buddy Holly use the traditional "Shave and a Haircut" rhythmic chanting for one of his songs as used by Bo Diddley and probably many more before him.


Dave,

If Alexa has failed you try the star of "The Wizard of Oz".


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:41 PM

Conversely, Gordon Strachan the football manager was not the same person as
Gordon Strachan the Church of Scotland radical theologian. I don't think either of them could sing all that well - I knew the theologian slightly but never asked.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM

"Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. " (SG)
Is there any need fro this nastiness Steve (JC)

Your paranoia coming out again.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:55 PM

"Your paranoia coming out again"
"Gasps of horror on the folk scene and Mudcat!!!!!
Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. "
You seem to moved on from patronising me to ridiculing me - not what I became used to down the years and totally unnecessary
Niether is necessary - I know my place in the order of hings just I I know yours
Nice editing, by the way
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:12 PM

Since Jim is back could he answer my question about my links and my club for he has left me feeling puzzled?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

You did the editing. I just copied it, but thanks for the compliment!

Basically when we agree with you were being 'nasty'.
When we compliment your work we're being 'patronising'.
Looks like a mild paranoia to me!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

Me too, Vic!

Jim, what links and what club?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM

!You did the editing.
yOU WROTE IT
"but thanks for the compliment!"
No compliment intended - you need to learn to receive what you dish out
"Looks like a mild paranoia to me!"
Looks like yet another attempt to patonise and insult to me - far too much of that around as it is
"Since Jim is back"
Didn't realise I'd been anywhere - must go easy on the cooking sherry
"What links? What club?"
Sorry Vic - that was intended for Dave who put up links to his club

Off shortly to enjoy a weekend devoted to traditional concertina playing rudely interrupted by a day's traditional singing in the north of the county
When we wrote our letter (entitled "where have all the Folk-songs gone" t o The living Tradition, we were greeted by a barrage of protest not unsimilar to this - one particularity from a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat) stood out
They suggested the we were suffering from the boredom of the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay" - wonder if they're still doing the rounds and how busy they are compared to here
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

Boom and fizzle has been the norm for all kinds of music for centuries, with the cycles steadily shortening since the 18th century. 1815: waltzes. 1842: polkas. 1850s: Highland pipes. 1870s: brass bands.

Those all stuck around for a while. Later on they tended not to. 1900ish: ragtime 1915: jazz - which only survived by becoming something quite different every decade, finally vanishing below public visibility around 1970. The Charleston: maybe ten years from 1920. Foxtrots: not much longer. Instrumentals featuring weird sounds: 1940-1960. String-based easy listening: 1950-1970. Rock and roll: more durable but mainly hung on by fusing with other things. Trippy synthesizer music: 1970s.

Is it really surprising that revived folk ran out of novelty on the same timescale as the Twist?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Thank you for the clarification and apology, Jim

a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat)
(Barry) Coope, (Jim) Boyes and (Lester) Simpson were for quite a number of years the top attraction on the folk club scene in England. The fame that surrounded them mainly due to their wonderful suites of First World War Songs which resulted in their gaining several BBC series to deliver their songs. This made them a major venue attraction with their fees way beyond the means of folk clubs but in spite of this they would fit in visits to our club in Lewes as we had booked them as individuals and as a group even before their rise to fame. I am very grateful to them for doing so.
All three have a very strong background in traditional song and I would rate their album of folk songs Hindsight and their album of folk carols A Garland of Carols as amongst the finest by folk revival singers this century.
Jim & Georgina Boyes have now moved to live in Belgium but Lester and Barry have joined forces with the superbly talented sisters Jo Freya & Fi Fraser in a quartet called Narthen.

Perhaps the oddest thing about your post was that it combined this perjorative description of these very fine performers with a sentence that included the words "you need to learn to receive what you dish out" when actually there is never any call for comments that demean others. Mudcat would be a much healthier place without them.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

The only links I have posted are of me performing, Jim. From these you have determined that "it doesn't seem to have worked there". Thanks a bunch. You really know how to bolster a man's confidence.

Don't complain about anyone else being personally insulting again. Just when I thought we were beginning to understand each other.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

Coope. Boyes and Simpson....not my cup of tea but i should have thought they were yours, Jim. Very traddy.

undeniably talented. i should imagine they're all doing okay.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:06 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear"
Nic Jones once said to me, you dont ask the audience what they want to hear you convince them that they want to hear what you want to perform, that what performing is about, you grab the audience


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:12 PM

Well Nic never grabbed me, He was a fine musician. A great fiddle player. People forget that because his singing and guitar playing were so good.
because He got great reviews for his albums in MM at the time, People turned out to see him - he was definitely on the radar.

But he never spoke much on the stage and presented his songs and explained why he chose them. So it was largely unfamiliar material to the audience, which is asking a lot.

In that period, folk club audiences were always polite and appreciative, but I never seemed to hear gasps of admiration or saw people queuing up after the gig.

He was a better really as a recording artist. The albums have stood the test of time.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:20 AM

Yes the Folk club boom of the 1960s was multifaceted ~ entertainment ~ singing choruses, see and listening to the likes of Nick Jones with his guitar skills and accompaniments to traditional songs

June Tabor and Maddy Prior ~ the folk entertainers, Tony Capstick, Mike Harding etc

The opportunity to try out songs and get others to sing along ~ a voyage of discovery as to where "we" came from that is our social and family history in song ~ Fred Jordan, The Coppers, The Elliotts (of Birtley) etc

People at gigs may have been hero worshipers but I certainly was too bashful to approach the booked guests!

Must say I still enjoy harmony singing groups ~ Derek and Dorothy Elliott (of Barnsley), The Voice Squad superb

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

agreed.
theres a great little quartet round here of adults old enough to know better calling themselves No Direction.
very jolly!


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

Apropos of nothing at all, Derek and Dorothy had a shop in Whitby. Dunno if they still do. It had pictures of Derek with various cast members from Heartbeat on the walls. Funny that a traditional singer was in a TV series with a Buddy Holly song as a theme init... :-D


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:51 AM

Did the average punter in the 60's go to a folk club to be entertained,educated, both,or some other reason?
Speaking for myself I would not want to hear a never ending dirge like the unquiet grave in a folk club, but could happily listen to John Conolly singing selfpenned material about the Grimsby/Hull fishing industry.If I received an education from my experiences it was peripheral and incidental, I was there for entertainment.
I wonder if traditional and contemporary folk music passes the old grey whistle test and would this account for the longevity of certain material?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:57 AM

Derek was not a traditional singer he was a revival singer who sang trad songs thers a difference.the elliots of birtley are not to be confused with derek elliot


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

Not really interested in the firm of solicitors, just their ill-informed rudeness about my chosen home town
Rudeness, envy and back-biting seems to be a built in part of today's folk scene
Nice to add yet another myth (about MacColls hidden millions) to my collection - perhaps one day we'll be able to discuss is work and ideas - should we all live that long!!!

"Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear"
Dedicated singer (performer sounds far too professional) should realise that the first person to please is themselves - do that and you stand a far better chance of taking your listeners with you
Despite rumors to the contrary, I have firmly come to the conclusion that our folk songs were made to respond to what was happening around them and to record it in song - we've actually been told that by source singers and have recorded descriptions of songs being made
The 'sale' aspect of singing and songwriting was, with very little doubt, always a secondary issue until the hacks entered the picture and, as has been admitted by the print origin lot, that was a two-way street - nobody will ever know which direction the bulk of the traffic moved, we can only use our common sense to decide that - dates men nothing if you don't have all the information

Ray's description of the revival in no way coincides with my experience
We were lucky to have MacColl and Seeger as residents, but we relied on all our residents - booking guests was a break in the normal run of things
Our clubs - there were several - were very much grassroots affairs designed to promote the songs - not the singers - and to encourage the making of new songs
Can't say that any of Ron's first list were among those I'd make much of an effort to seek out
The source singers, most certainly, The Stewarts, Willie Scott, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Tunney, Walter Pardon, Joe Heaney, the Travellers we recorded, Jeannie and Lizzie... I was lucky to see them all and many more
I wasn't there, but Pat remembers the night Harry Cox was the guest and started rather uncomfortably, until he turned his back on the audience, spat his new false teeth into his handkerchief and turned around and transfixed the audience with his singing

The Singers was among the first to stick traditional Irish musicians in front of a folk club audience, we saw the best, McCarthy, Casey, Meehan, McGlinchey, Sherlock...
I still have a recording of the glorious night when Offaly box player, John Bowe formed an instant friendship with Bert Lloyd on the Singers Club stage
A club member asked us to book this new fiddle play he'd just heard, so we booked a fresh-faced young Kevin Burke and his mate, P J Crotty - magic nights that never leave you - I wouldn't swap one of them for all your folk superstars
That's what the revival meant for me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:36 AM

So, Jim, do you really think the links I provided of my performances at Swinton prove that the folk club there is no longer working? The songs I linked were me performing 3 pieces at different times. "The old cock crow" unaccompanied; "The harvest of the moon", with concertina accompaniment and a guitar piece of unknown origin that I learnt from my Dad. I would have thought they were just the type of pieces that work in folk clubs. Why do you say "from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there"?


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

" there is never any call for comments that demean others. "
My comments were in response to their initial rudeness Vic
You tend to be somewhat myopic when it comes to bad manner and insulting - ignoring the bits that suit you - even describing them as harmless and only objecting when it's from someone you don't agree with
I pointed this out on the 'New Book' thread.
This latest is an example
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

If you have forgotten them just Google "Dave Polshaw YouTube" and all 3 appear. The middle one is incorrectly titled "The harvest of the moon".


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:06 AM

How are you ever going to raise the profile of your music if you call each other names.

As I say,   Lester Simpson - i've seen several times. He tells these folk tales. And Coop Boyes and Simpson have been doing their thing about twelve years that I know off. they are your actual arts council/BBC sort of thing. Immensely competent and dedicated.

My boat stays unfloated, but lots of people like them. I'm an old fart pub singer. I dropped the ball sometime after Leapy Lee made number one. you can't expect me to get it.

But these guys are on your side. they would be on your side in any argument.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

I know you are on your way out, Jim, but if you can see your way to answering my question as soon as you can I would appreciate it. It is very important to me.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:25 AM

"How are you ever going to raise the profile of your music if you call each other names."
Said the feller who's just referred to several of us as "toadies"
"So, Jim, do you really think the links I provided of my performances at Swinton prove that the folk club there is no longer working?"
That wasn't my point Dave - I was a referring to poorly attended clubs populated lagely by oldies failing to attract new blood
I wouldn't dream of condemning what goes on there on the basis of a couple of clips
It's what you argue should happen at folk clubs that divides us
A folk club that fails to make folk song its main feature simply isn't doing its job
The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give

One thing that strikes me is that the internet may be a way of critically discussing performances with a view to improving them
The barrier to that of course is in making clear that positive criticism is not insulting or condemnation - not when it's delivered on a "good bits and bad bits" basis
THe other hurdle is the cloak of invincibility parts of the reivival has wrapped itself in - evidence of it here with good singers (ie, singers the poster happens to like) are above criticism, summed up by the old joke"
What would you do if you came home to find your missus in bed with Georgie Best   
Throw on another blanked 0- you don't want the bugger catching cold before Saturday

Nobody should ever be above criticism
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks Jim. The clips I posted do not show what you seem to say and the chap taking the videos was in fact a young man so, if your impression was that Swinton was failing to attract new blood you are only partially right. There was certainly not many younger people but there were some. That seems to be the way of things and you will find that there are not many oldies at a rave!

It's what you argue should happen at folk clubs that divides us
A folk club that fails to make folk song its main feature simply isn't doing its job


Once again I am at a loss as to your meaning. The clips I linked are of me (and a number of others if you look) singing folk songs so, once again, how were we "failing to make folk songs a main feature"? Which of the songs I mention above are not folk songs and why? If we need to improve things we need to know what!

Also, again, I have never argued that "anything should go" at a folk club and you have failed to provide any evidence or where I am supposed to have done so. If you cannot back up the statement please stop making it, Repitition does not make something true as I think you pointed out to someone else once.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

"That seems to be the way of things and you will find that there are not many oldies at a rave!"
Whataboutism is no excuse
I was twenty one when I became involved and by three years younger sister did so at the same time
I was still buzzing from Duane Eddy, Buddy Holly, Rickie Nelson et al, and for a while continued to do so
It is more than a litle dismissive to claim that young people can' be involved
We sat in a room alongside the two generations of late friend Tom McCarthy - Clare piper and concertina player
His daughters daughters, their spouses and their six/seven (too many to count) children - all superb musicians sat and listened whie Toomt Keane (pipe spuse of one of the daughters) gabe a two hour talk on Tom's music - then followed by a mini-concert by family members
A truely magic night dominated by youngsters just as at home in a session as they are at a rave
We misjudge the youth if we believe them to be incapable of incapable of our music, and we do ourselves no favours either
Once again, I made no comment on either the standard or the content of your club
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 07:50 AM

Try and follow this one:-

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM
When we wrote our letter (entitled "where have all the Folk-songs gone" t o The living Tradition, we were greeted by a barrage of protest not unsimilar to this - one particularity from a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat) stood out
They suggested the we were suffering from the boredom of the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay"

In an effort to reduce unkind comments on this thread, Vic writes ...

From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM
Perhaps the oddest thing about your post was that it combined this perjorative description of these very fine performers with a sentence that included the words "you need to learn to receive what you dish out" when actually there is never any call for comments that demean others. Mudcat would be a much healthier place without them.
Jim defends himself by saying....

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
My comments were in response to their initial rudeness Vic.
Vic thinks about this. He checks, using the Mudcat member search facility to see whether Barry Coope, Jim Boyes or Lester Simpson have ever posted on Mudcat. None of the three ever have. This brings another question to Vic's mind....

None of these three people are likely to read your comments about them on this forum as there is no evidence that they ever visit here. If their comments, made in the magazine Living Tradition, about the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay" are so hurtful to you, why don't you take them up with the magazine rather than posting them here? After all, the editor of that magazine also makes her home in the western part of the fair land of Erin and probably suffers as badly from the blasts of Boreas, the shivers brought by Jack Frost and the other spirits that control the shorter daylight days. She may have sympathy for your cause.
We have enough problems with home-grown Mudcat insults without importing them.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

the point is that Coope, Boyes and Simpson are very much on the traddie/purist wavelength, like yourself.

I've never pretended to be.

I just thought a bit of group solidarity might reduce the need for uncritical toadyism.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:24 AM

Ok, Jim. So your comment "from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there" was only aimed at an apparent failure to attract young people. I can see that now and apologise for my earlier misinterpretation. In my defense, it can be difficult to follow your posts at times but I will try harder. However, what you failed to see on the clips is that it was a young man that recorded the songs and there were other young people in the audience that were not captured on video so your assumption is wrong.

I will also point out that as the club is run in a pub and does not get underway until around 9pm we did not expect children to attend. By young people in this case I mean 20-40. I have never suggested that young people can't be involved either so I have no idea where your statement that it was dismissive came from.

We now go on to address your line "The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give" and I agree with that. One cannot condone or condemn the actions of a folk club on the evidence of a couple of clips or on pure hearsay. You need to go to the club a number of times to be able to judge how they are faring. With that in mind, I ask you how many folk clubs in England have you attended recently?

I eagerly await your response.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 08:51 AM

The clubs I went to in the 70s were filled mainly with young people in their 20s and 30s, although there were a few older ones as well. That generation is the still the one I see in the clubs I go to now. However young people haven't given up folk music, they are starting up their own clubs, just as my generation did, and presenting the music their own way, again just as my generation did. I don't see anything wrong with that.

As for folk clubs not featuring folk songs any more, I think that is a consequence of the shrinking club scene. Like it or not, the term "folk" covers a fairly broad spectrum, and the clubs I wrote about earlier all covered a range of music. If the music at one club didn't suit you there were plenty of other clubs which would. Now that choice isn't there, so everyone is forced together. They may be performing songs which may not be to everyone's taste, but they have no alternative.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,RS
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:02 AM

The folk clubs in Reading that I went to in the 60s were wonderfully eclectic in their range of performers, & leaned more towards the blues/Jansch side (courtsey of the likes of residents such as Mike Cooper, Derek Hall, Bill Boazman etc ) - if they'd been more trad in nature, as I later discovered was the case in many places, I reckon they'd've been less appealing to many of us - I was luckier than I knew.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:11 AM

" With that in mind, I ask you how many folk clubs in England have you attended recently
Been there, done that Dave - the internet has made that totally irrelevant
When somebody names a good singer who, with a little search, turns out to be a crap singer singing crap, you know something is not right
Equally, when people argue for clubs being venues for songs not remotely relating to folk you know that all the visits in teh world are not going to change what you will find
The same applies to using crib sheets, having no standards... and all the other things argued for here and elsewhere, the idea that all is not well is confirmed
ou only need to look on the EFDSS website and could that with Rod Stradling's editorial, you have to admit something is sadly amiss at the very place that should be at the helm
Meaningless and often insulting comments like "purist" and "folk police" are indications that people are turning away from folk song and using the term to mean something else, which by and large they are totally unable or unwilling to define (including you BTW) are indications that the scene has become directionless
"Long ballads" being "inappropriate" is an out of hand dismissal of the cream of the folk repertoire
Fall in attendance, reduction in number of clubs, often described discomfiture at singing unaccompanied songs (or even old songs) - all suggesting a terminal decline
The shift from competent resident to paid guest, festivals taking over from locally based clubs.... how much evidence do you want ?
Folk clubs with out folk songs are not only pointless, they do damage to the future of our art (that really is what it is)
I love singing, I have always loved listening to good songs reasonably performed, but my interests go far beyond that   
Last nights trip to town to hear the children and grandchildren of a twenty year dead piper friend play superbly left me waling on a cloud
A couple of minutes on Mudcat has brought me back to earth with a bump
Never mind, off to here another dead friend being discussed and demonstrated in an hour or so
Jim


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 09:22 AM

Clubs nowadays are tending to descibe themselves as "acoustic music clubs" rather than "folk clubs". This provides a clear open door to all genres (Americana, blues, trad, etc.) Anything involving applification is still regarded as a no-no however, I have witnessed a few discrete 'plug-ins' here & there.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

Equally, when people argue for clubs being venues for songs not remotely relating to folk you know that all the visits in teh world are not going to change what you will find
The same applies to using crib sheets, having no standards... and all the other things argued for here and elsewhere, the idea that all is not well is confirmed
ou only need to look on the EFDSS website and could that with Rod Stradling's editorial, you have to admit something is sadly amiss at the very place that should be at the helm


Rod is not the person to go to for opinions about folk clubs. When we were at his place in Stroud last year, he told me that the only folk club that he had been to in the last fifteen years was ours - and that was because we had booked him. This does not mean that he is no longer involved in live music. He plays in his dance band, he is a regular at song and tune sessions in his area and he was raving to me about a concert that he has just seen in Bristol by Eliza Carthy's latest band. He finds concerts with hearing loops and small sessions more suitable and acoustic folk clubs in larger rooms more difficult with his hearing loss problems
I have more sympathy with his current position with the EFDSS and I feel that there is some sense of loss of direction since Malcolm Taylor retired. There are still great things being achieved by them in terms of the archiving of recordings of traditional song. The Full English is utterly admirable and the society hosts the vital and vast Roud Folk Song Index. I really like Katie Spicer the current CEO and she has worked wonders in terms of major fund-raising from the ACE and the HLR as well as attracting corporate funding. All this comes with strings attached so the emphasis has moved to sponsoring projects and to putting singers, dancers and musicians into schools - especially those that are finding it difficult to attract full-time music teachers. The evaluation asked for by these organisations calls for analysis of numbers of those attending, so when, as a member, I press for the Thomas McCarthys and Will Nobles of this world, it is explained to me why this is not always viable.
Unlike Rod, I remain a member of the EFDSS and will press for any action that supports traditional music. I vote in their elections and am very pleased to see people I know and respect like Alistair Anderson, Fi Fraser, Nicola Kearey, Mike Heaney and Corrine Male on the Governing Board.
I have no sympathy for those who criticise the EFDSS without joining to try to being about a change in direction. Similarly, those who do nor regularly visit and support folk clubs and encourage the organisers when they feel they are doing something well and expressing doubts about what they are less engaged by will never achieve change. I know that as an organiser I always was guided by club regulars and acted on suggestions that I thought helpful.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM

Been there, done that Dave - the internet has made that totally irrelevant

Sorry, Jim, but it doesn't make it irrelevant at all. There are a number of ways of measuring most things. The style, quality and general demenour of folk clubs being one of them. I agree with you entirely that the internet has a place in making these judgements but, as you said yourself, "The question of standards is an important one but judging that needs a wider picture than a couple of clips can give" (Emboldening is mine). There are clips on the internet, there is anecdotal evidence and there is experiencing things for yourself. All these things go to make up the larger picture. I am not saying that the evidence that you present is not right, but it is not the whole picture. Just as mine is not because I can only report what I see in the clubs I am familiar with.

You say the whole folk club scene is in dire straights because of the evidence you have gathered. I say it is not because of the evidence I have gathered. If we put our evidence together we will probably find that the situation is somewhere in between where not everything is failing but there is considerable room for improvement.

Neither of us is wholly right or wrong and that is something I think we can work on.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 12:58 PM

Dave and Vic, well put. I'm in total agreement.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

I am pleased that some ppl had the good fortune to see and hear some traditional singers at their folk clubs in the 1960s and 1970s on a regular basis ~ I think that most like me were happy to see and hear revivalist singers and the odd opportunity to meet the likes of MacColl, Bert Lloyd, Arthur Howard, Frank Hinchliffe, Vin Garbutt, Cyril Tawney, Bod Davenport and others who were around ~ of whatever ilk showed the range of ppl around at the time!

Of course there is a fine body of upcoming ~ nay established professional artist and groups doing the rounds at the moment

Festivals and concerts and as I mentioned before vinyl records and sleeve notes were a great source of knowledge and information

Ray


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

Agreed, Ray
I can be as nostalgic as the next person when it comes to remembering the 60s, but if I am being honest and realistic the current performers, including the current crop under 40, are at least as good and as numerous, and, dare I say it, more knowledgeable of the background to the music simply because there is infinitely more information readily available.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:28 PM

Steve i disagree, we had closer contact to tradtional singers willie scott etc, and no i do not think they are any better, the standard is much the same, but the standard of floor singers now is lower


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

Steve has put a lot of effort into discovering the historical background to traditional music. So have I, and I agree entirely that the message has got through - younger players have a much better idea of where the stuff they play came from than those of a generation ago. Partly a change of attitude and partly what the Internet makes possible - a fiddler today coming across a wacky tune like "Catharsis" might well think, what was that all about? and if they ask the question it's only going to take minutes to find the composer's story about it in her own words. And it's a good story, well worth using in a performance. The charm of wilful ignorance wears off pretty fast.


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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:44 PM

Yes, Dick, we did have access to traditional singers in the flesh, but today's youngsters have even greater access to their singing as much more is available online and on albums, thanks to many websites which make this available, Mustrad, EFDSS, ITMA, Kist of Riches, Yorkshire Garland, Farne, Sussex Traditions, etc. etc.


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