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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 01:04 PM
DMcG 19 Oct 19 - 03:33 AM
Raggytash 19 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM
DMcG 19 Oct 19 - 11:35 AM
Iains 19 Oct 19 - 12:21 PM
robomatic 19 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 19 - 03:46 PM
Iains 19 Oct 19 - 04:10 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM
DMcG 20 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 19 - 03:23 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 19 - 06:14 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM
Raggytash 20 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 02:04 PM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM
peteaberdeen 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 08:03 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Oct 19 - 11:18 AM
Raggytash 21 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM
Raggytash 21 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 01:09 PM
Backwoodsman 21 Oct 19 - 01:24 PM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 19 - 06:52 PM
Iains 22 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM
DMcG 22 Oct 19 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 19 - 07:45 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 19 - 08:27 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 19 - 08:37 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Oct 19 - 02:01 AM
DMcG 23 Oct 19 - 02:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 19 - 04:33 AM
Iains 23 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM
Iains 23 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 19 - 05:52 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:04 PM

If that amiable but admittedly sharp buffoon Letwin gets his amendment on the agenda tomorrow (calling for a completion of all legislation surrounding the deal before there can be any approval of the deal), as he definitely should, Johnson will have to write his letter and ask for an extension. It wouldn't be impossible to get it all done before Halloween, but at least it would mean we couldn't "accidentally" (sure...) crash out without a deal.

I'm slightly appalled that a handful of Labour MPs can consider supporting a deal that gives a bloody Tory government free rein to shit all over workers' rights. Firm up, Jezza. Anyone who doesn't vote against must lose the whip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:33 AM

Rudyard Kipling's "If" tends to get nominated whenever the general public is asked about its favourite poem. One couplet seems quite relevant for today:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

Whatever the outcome, the result will be an 'imposter' - it will be neither as good as its supporters claim, nor as bad as its detractors. It will not settle anything - there are (probably) many years of argument and negotiations to follow, and it will cast a long shadow on the next election whenever it comes, and the Parliament that arises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM

Interesting times ahead!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 11:35 AM

I am hearing some mistaken analysis on BBC News about the Letwin amendment. What they are missing is that it was an amendment to the text of a bill that was not passed. And therefore it has not entered into law. Yes, it puts the Benn Act into play, but if the speaker allows the bill to be voted on Monday it is a new motion and so unaffected by Letwin. Which means the danger that Letwin was avoiding resurfaces: it would be possible to pass the deal and then not pass the following legislation leading to the no deal drop out on 31 Oct that it was designed to avoid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 12:21 PM

I wonder how much of these events were wargamed by the tame machiavellian Mr Cummings.
It is not over until we hear the abbacus squawking!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM

When I hear the Cummings mantra "take back control" I immediately wonder: "control of what" "take back control when you're 50 meters from the rocks in a leeward gale?" "what control had you before?"

"take back control" = "make America great again"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM

Take back control and give it to Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:46 PM

We have at the helm a man who told us a few short months ago that no Tory government could ever contemplate a customs border in the Irish Sea. He's now hailing his advocacy of that very idea as part of his brilliant deal. He's a liar. And that's why he's suffered today's defeat. He's a liar who can't be trusted on anything. He has to be stopped from bringing about an "accidental" no deal in two weeks' time or a crash-out at the end of 2020 (there's no way in heaven or earth that a trade deal will be clinched by then). We can't trust him not to shit all over workers' rights, a matter over which his deal afforded him a convenient getout. His assurances on that score mean nothing. Why? Because he's a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:10 PM

He has to be stopped from bringing about an "accidental" no deal in two weeks' time or a crash-out at the end of 2020

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song..............!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3CjvyP4ed4


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM

If you don't exactly expect your hallowed prime minister to act like a big kid, just contemplate the fact that Bozza has sent his letter, as required by the law of the land, but refused to sign it...Bwahahaha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM

The second letter is critical, but not for the reasons that may first appear. The fact the Benn Act letter is unsigned would normally cast its legal status into doubt: there is no evidence that the letter came from the PM at all = it could be some junior civil servant who sent it. So it would not, by itself, meet the requirements of the act, I suspect.

However the second letter, which was signed, says he has instructed the letter to be sent. That confirms that the 'Benn letter' is sent by the Prime Minister with the same legal weight as if he had signed it.

There is a key word in phrasing of the Act will, I think, be the crux of the Government's defence when this comes before the courts in the cases scheduled for Monday. It says:

The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019 by sending to the President of the European Council a letter in the form set out in the Schedule to this Act

Notice it says 'by' rather than, for example, 'including but not limited to'.   They will, I think, argue that by sending the letter they have completely discharged their obligation to 'seek', since the 'by' clause defines what 'seek' means.   There opponents will argue that sending an unsigned letter is a clear breach of the intent of the Act, because unsigned documents generally have no legal significance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:23 AM

'Their' opponents, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

Come the end of the month monies are due. Only the government, not parliament, can create legislation with a financial component.
The result of all these games is that Boris gains even more supporters for the inevitable election and parliament is seen to publicly destroy any pretense of being democratic. There will be consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:14 AM

Johnson's letters shenanigans will go down as petty and petulant. The outcome would be the same had he written it on a crisp packet or baked bean tin. Now there's likely to be a court case. Idiot. I see that Labour would back an amendment calling for a referendum. I've given up trying to think what I should be thinking...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Had it been me I would have had the missive printed on a sheet of andrex, despite the reputed shortages created by project fear.
Boris represents what is left of our shattered democracy. The rebellious MPs make us a laughing stock throughout the world but lack the guts to dignify their actions by letting the sovereign vote of the people dictate outcomes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

I actually heard a Brexit-Bumpkin on a Radio 4 vox-pop yesterday say, “The problem is that MPs are voting for what’s best for the whole country, which is wrong - they should be voting for what we [the Brexit-Bumpkins] want”!

Is there no limit to Brexiteers’ mindless moronity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM

We don't pay MPs to "do what we want." We pay them to apprise themselves of the intricacies of the major issues confronting us and to act accordingly in the country's best interests. If MPs "did what we wanted" we'd likely be sending third-generation descendants of immigrants "back to where they came from," stringing people up, making people in prison sit in dungeon-like cells to eat dry bread, reducing the price of beer to 4d a pint, banning state benefits, banning strikes and bringing back the birch.

When we abolished capital punishment half a century ago I recall that it was said somewhere or other that 84% of the public disagreed. Had we put that to a referendum, "the will of the people" would have dictated that we carried on stringing people up. I dare say that a good number would have agreed to doing it in public and drawing and quartering to boot.

It would be thoroughly unscientific to jump to too many conclusions on listening to those vox pops, but they do indicate that large numbers of people are not apprised of the intricacies of this most major of issues. The referendum asked an ignorant public to make a decision crucial to the future of the country and the campaign failed utterly to provide them effectively with that information. Worse, it provided them with huge amounts of disinformation. The referendum was by far the most extreme example of the dereliction of democracy I've seen in this country in my lifetime. It was also an incredibly stupid thing to do. Next time you hear someone say that it was a "simple" in-out question, or that "the people have spoken," or that parliament should succumb "to the will of the nation," or that "it's been going on long enough and we should just get on with it," just remind yourself that you are talking to an utter pig-ignoramus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM

What a pathetic gesture it was for Johnson not to sign the letter asking for an a extension.

The behaviour of a child, and a belligerent child at that.

I look forward to the result of the case in Edinburgh, I can only hope they find him in contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:04 PM

Despite all the warblings of remainiacs the fact remains that Boris represents the majority. All the nonsense about burke and who MPs represent will be made abundantly clear at the next election. The latest estimates suggest magic grandad will lose a hundred seats.
It will be a joy to behold. The leftie squawking we see here will be shown to the world as the delusions of the minority.
Bring it on I say.
TIC TOC! if nothing else we will be rid of the treacherous dwarf come halloween. With any luck the Aos Sí will take the wretch away to the otherworld.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM

We will hear today whether Bercow will allow a debate to proceed, though most predictions are that he will not.

The 'master strategist' (cough!) Cummings, just like all the rest of us, will have been aware that putting essentially the same motion back to Parliament is against the rules. So when Johnson pulled the vote at the weekend they would both have been aware that there was a very real chance it could not be brought back.

So any anger if Bercow does prohibit the motion will either be confected - it was part of their plan - or demonstrate what we all suspect that there is no plan at all. A goal, yes. A strategy - blame everyone else for everything - yes. A plan - no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM

Are the Brexit Kamikazists still claiming the "majority" even though all the indications are that they are now a minority and they have never had the decency, courage and sense of democracy to ask the poeople whether that still beelieve this suicidal nonsense
I don't believe it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM

Bercow is a loose cannon abusing his position to thwart the will of the government and the democratic majority.
It is clearly no longer even a pretense of insisting on the right terms for brexit, but simply an all out attempt to frustrate and cancel it.

It has become a battle between the people and a rebellious parliament and no specious arguments advanced here can alter that fact.
17.4 million people voted to leave in June 2016. Our patience is evaporating.
There is no possible argument that can be advanced to legitimize the power grab by rebellious MPs. They betray their electorate and democracy.
They are so uncertain of their standing they cannot even tolerate the thought of an election.
Remainiacs are happy to destroy democracy in order to get their way.
Yet when the inevitable blowback inevitably occurs they will be the first to bleat "not fair"
We have already had a taster with the opinionated ecoloons bringing parts of London to a standstill. The laddie on the tube roof got short shift off commuters. He should be charged with endangering the public by ignoring the HSE working at heights directive.(No method statement, no fall arrest harness or means of attachment, no safety barriers,etc etc)
Be very careful what you wish for. If 17.4 million get riled up enough to insist their vote is respected, there will be consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

What is really odd about this whole debacle is how people are supporting the narcissistic serial liar we now have for a PM. The man has a blatant disregard for parliamentary procedure, the law and democracy, yet he is portrayed as championing all of these. It just goes to show that you can fool some of the people all of the time. Let us just hope that he now has enough rope to hang himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM

It is worse than that, DtG. I was speaking to a guy in the pub last night who asked how the voted went and was horrified when I told him that and that the letters had been sent. He said that "they can't do that" (not defining who 'they' are) and that as a life long Labour voter he could not object to any of the things in the Queens Speech "so would not vote Tory but would vote Boris"


So: we have a chap with an interest in Brexit but not enough to find out the result in some 28 hours. Who is seemingly unaware that Johnson's track record in keeping his promises is not exactly great. Who is presumably aware that the things in the Queen's Speech are again not things the Tories have a good track record on.

And to finish off seems to think he votes for a PM but not a party.

Do I have a lot of confidence in the outcome of a confirmatory referendum? Not really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM

i.m not really too concerned at a national level about a few million frail mail and telegraph-reading pensioners getting their warped and manipulated brexit mania thwarted in the name of 'looking at the detail'. they may get a bit outraged until the next royal baby or cake baking outrage on tv. the even further right group of potentially violent headbangers could remain angry in small parts of the country and they are -as ever- a threat to law and order. a worry where i live. however, at a national level they have no real significance (unless you count throwing plastic chairs around in european mainland squares) tommy robinson got less than 3,000 votes when he stood for election in the north west euro elections. i don't feel they should be taken into consideration - we can't have democracy by threat


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

Excellent comment on the Guardian website under today's live blog:

It seems pretty clear that this withdrawal agreement is flawed to its very foundations. Dangerously imbalanced and unsustainable, splitting the UK into fragments that add up to the *opposite* of the ideal compromise, without any crumbs of comfort for anyone. Northern Ireland given economic favours it doesn’t want. Scotland denied those same economic favours it *does* want. The sensible half of England and Wales shafted from every angle, and the insensible half given poverty and weakness dressed up in the same warmed over empty promises they so eagerly believed three years ago.

If this was an agreement intended for the long term it would almost certainly lead to the eventual collapse of the United Kingdom, but of course it’s not a long term agreement. It comes with a sell by date that falls long before - *years* before - a trade agreement could conceivably be reached, with the default and most likely outcome being no deal. In voting for the agreement MPs only give up the safeguards they have today to stop no deal. They put the right to trigger it in the hands of a man who can’t even be trusted with his own name, and has proved time and again that he can’t be trusted with power.

This week many MPs will be tempted to vote for Johnson’s deal because the nation is exhausted and frustrated, eager to ‘get Brexit done’ provided the many millions who feel otherwise are carefully ignored...

...MPs, be bold, and remember that we sent you there not to bow to the confected rage of the right wing press, nor the threats of the leadership and the bullying whips, nor even to be delegates for our own opinions and anger. You were sent to that place to *represent our interests* to the best of your abilities, to use your judgement and conscience to make the lives and futures of the people you serve better. The impact of your decisions this week will be felt for decades. Only you can decide whether to hurt or help us, and deep down you all know that Brexit can only cause harm. Please, do the right thing.


My sentiments precisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM

even though all the indications are that they are now a minority and they have never had the decency, courage and sense of democracy to ask the poeople whether that still beelieve this suicidal nonsense
I don't believe it

My number(17,400,000 to leave was bigger than your number(16,100,000) to remain. That means I am in the majority, you are in the minority.Democracy is to honour the will of the majority. Do you have a problem understanding big numbers? or do you simply like to post arrant nonsense?

An unusual article in the guardian today. It actually makes a kind of sense. "Of the six Labour MPs who rebelled and voted with the government on Saturday, only one, Caroline Flint, is standing again in the next general election. But in her constituency of Don Valley, which she has represented for 22 years, that decision seems unlikely to be a costly one.Explaining her decision, Flint revealed a stark statistic: in the mining villages in this part of South Yorkshire, she wrote in the Sunday Times, 80% of voters backed leave in 2016 (over the whole constituency the figure was 68%). Parliament has not been listening to these people, she wrote: “The voices in our mining villages remain unheard, despite their support for Labour over many decades.”

None of your totally discredited Burke being a berk garbage in this neck of the woods.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/20/she-has-listened-to-us-constituents-back-labour-rebel-caroline-flint


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:03 AM

From a Guardian live news feed:

Scottish judges to continue case into legality of Johnson's letters to Brussels

Guardian Scotland editor Severin Carrellis in court in Edinburgh where Lord Carloway has rejected a call by the UK government to halt proceedings because the prime minister has met his legal requirements under the Benn Act.

The judge said he would continue with the case until it was clear that Downing Street has complied with the act in full – ie. to seek and, if offered, accept a Brexit extension from the EU. A date for the next hearing is yet to be fixed.

======
As I anticipated in earlier posts, the Government lawyers claimed that sending the letter discharged all its legal obligations under the Act. It is clear the court does not agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM

Criticising Brexit to become a ‘Hate Crime’... after the movement gains religious status. ;-)

Well, let’s face it, it bears as much relationship to reality as any other religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM

Cue the fabricated outrage because Bercow has not allowed the MV...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:18 AM

Looks as though our ‘Semen’ Staines/Yaxley-Lennon Fanboy is talking through his rectal sphincter again (so what’s new?)...

Britain has turned against Brexit – biggest ever poll of polls says


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM

I linked to that last week Backwoodsman, unsurprisingly it was met with a wall of silence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM

Incidentally shouldn't Johnson be in a ditch by now?

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 01:09 PM

Maybe he is. Heathrow airport would be a good place to start looking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 01:24 PM

Sorry Raggy, I must have missed your post.
But, on the positive side, Good News can’t be repeated to often, can it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

As the polls prior to the referendum managed to be hopelessly wrong, it is a measure of a person's gullibility that they are still swayed by their conclusions.

It is meaningless anyway because the only numbers of significance are those of the brexit referendum. It needs to be pointed out (yet again )that despite all the vacuous postings by remainiacs - they lost and the valiant brexiteers won!
Parliament and the rogue dwarf are in opposition to both the governing party and the people.

What remainiacs are trying to do is deny the democratic will of the majority by way of an attempted coup.
The rebellious MP have less morals than alley cats. They stood for election on the basis of honouring the referendum results. They lied.
Furthermore they lack integrity and the courage of their convictions and do not stand down, in order the electorate be given voice for their choice.

Nothing you can say or do, no arguments you can advance can give even a trace of legitimacy to your actions. As you well know. You boys are doing nowt but blow smoke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:52 PM

The sheer hypocrisy of those who claim that the "failure" to abide by the "will of the people" (37% lest we forget) is staggering when set beside this government's attempts to bulldoze a bill through in no time at all without the time to scrutinise it in detail and without any kind of assessment of the impact of the agreement on the economy. Talk about sidestepping democracy. Disgraceful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:52 PM
As I said, blowing smoke!
That is not very carbon friendly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM

He tried to bully MPs into agreeing with his bulldozing plan, and found that MPs can't be bullied. God knows where we go from here, but at least democracy is in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 05:29 PM

Where we go is definitely unclear, but there are a few possibilities amongst many others:.

* The bill proceeds and and least one amendment is made to it that is significant enough it has to go back to the EU to see if they agree. And round the houses we go.

* Johnson is offered an extension and as he indicated, he pulls and goes back to the electorate .. As the man with a deal Parliament has said it could potentially approve, but he decided not to proceed with? Not a very comfortable position.

* The EU says no. Very unlikely, but possible. I would expect an SO24 to try to stop no-deal in some way. In extremis, amending the default from no-deal to revoke. It would be unlikely to pass, but it might be tried.

* A no confidence vote, with frantic attempts to form an alternative government. It may be impossible to agree one, but after a fortnight it would be an election, which Johnson is threatening anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:45 PM

He can't go back to the electorate unless MPs let him, with a two-thirds majority. He could try an amendment to get him round the Cameron act, but that might be seen as just another of his little games. The flip side of that is that the opposition are under some pressure to allow an election.

So let's suppose he can wheedle his way to an election. Well I can't see that happening before Christmas, as schools are widely used as polling stations and it would be difficult to disrupt schools just as they're putting on their Christmas activities. An election in the post-Christmas gloom and doom, in the short, cold wet days of January, would be a massive vote-loser, let alone that Christmas would disrupt any election campaign. So it would likely be a spring election. By then, the Tories would have ripped themselves to bits in a vain attempt to stave off the Brexit Party.

I'm dreaming, of course. But in any case I simply can't see Johnson getting an overall majority. Another hung parliament would be my best guess, and we'd be down to who had the largest number of MPs. I've been saying for a couple of years that I can't see brexit happening and I'm sticking to that. Or am I just dreaming again...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:27 PM

" but at least democracy is in action."
At least and at last - democracy flew out of the window when Farage's scummy hate poster was allowed by the electoral authorities
There's nothing democratic about allowing scumbags like Farage target the foreigners in our midst to play to the eakest and most irrational fears of the people
The immedite result of that campaign is too well known to need repeating and now it's preading like a dirty miasma Robinson, The Brexit Hate Party, Trump in the US with the backing of the Klan, and the freed" former socialist states
There's signs of a fightback in parts of Europe, but nowhere near enough yet
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:37 PM

When I said that, I was saying that parliamentary democracy was at least trying to reassert itself by not cowtowing to right-wing Tory bullying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:01 AM

Or even kowtowing!

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/kowtow

Sincere apologies for being so weak of character as to allow myself to descend into Nigelist Nitpicking. Dunno wot came over me! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:15 AM

The more I reflect on it, the more it appears to me that Parliament approving second reading strengthens the opposition and weakens Johnson. Accidental, I am sure, but that is the effect.

With the exception or referendum or confirmatory vote, every amendment the opposition will bring forward will be to enshrine workers right protections, closer customs union etc: all things that the EU will happily back without further amendment in response. So we are on the route to a much softer Brexit if we continue with the bill. and it will be really difficult to use the "Parliament versus the people" line if Parliament is trying to approve the bill and Johnson is trying to stop them. especially if the Tories have to be fighting against writing protecting workers and environmental rights into the deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM

I dunno, BWM. One Tory leader was a known pig sticker. Perhaps the latest is a cow tower. Whatever that may mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:33 AM

Accidental, I am sure,
From discussions last night, it seems it wasn't
It gives the remainers a chance to call for and organise a confirmation national vote
That's why Johnsong is going to try to rush through a General Election before the end of the year, in the hope of involving the Brexit Party and the Robinsonite mob
The only problem he has is that if Farage decides on making a career in politics after being laughed out, be could split the Pro-Brexit vote
I think there are enough decent, old school Tories who will refuse to serve alongside a fascist like Farage to prevent a Brexit Party/Johnson Junta coalition - I hopse so, but anything can happen in this Brexit induced chaos
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM

Interesting that JRM pointed out to the speaker last night that the latest missive to the EU came from Parliament, not the government. By such Jesus bolts does hang the fate of Nations!

The hilarious point, overlooked by many, is that sooner or later the turkeys will be voting for Christamas.

Their roasting will be a truly popcorn moment while remainiacs will be having a gnashing of teeth and wailing of tears. It will make for fine media watching and will be the swansong of magic grandad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM

fascist like Farage to prevent a Brexit Party/Johnson Junta coalition

The usual gratuitous insults hurled around. Would you like a dictionary,
you seem to have a problem understanding certain words?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:52 AM

Two lies completed in one day. I'll take us out do or die by Halloween. Pass the programme notion or I'll pull the deal. These on top of the fact that he isn't dead in a ditch and that we are promised a customs border in the Irish Sea in spite of the fact that no Tory government could contemplate such a thing. So does anyone believe him when he assures us that workers' rights may be safely left to Parliament (presumably with him at the helm is what he's thinking), or that there's no chance of no-deal at the end of 2020?

You may be right about the second reading passing, DMcG. But had it failed, brexit might have been scuppered. I don't think there's much chance of major amendments such as a confirmatory vote or customs union succeeding. In either case he'll just pull the deal anyway. It's disappointing that there were enough Labour rebels to get the second reading through.


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