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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Steve Shaw 26 Feb 19 - 05:24 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Feb 19 - 05:23 PM
Iains 26 Feb 19 - 04:57 PM
mayomick 26 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM
Iains 26 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 26 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM
DMcG 26 Feb 19 - 08:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM
Raggytash 26 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM
Iains 26 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM
The Sandman 26 Feb 19 - 04:10 AM
The Sandman 26 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM
KarenH 26 Feb 19 - 03:27 AM
KarenH 26 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM
KarenH 26 Feb 19 - 03:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Feb 19 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 25 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM
DMcG 25 Feb 19 - 05:44 PM
Iains 25 Feb 19 - 05:37 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 25 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM
Donuel 25 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM
DMcG 25 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 25 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Feb 19 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Feb 19 - 01:18 PM
KarenH 25 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM
KarenH 25 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM
Iains 25 Feb 19 - 12:30 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 25 Feb 19 - 12:02 PM
KarenH 25 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM
Iains 25 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM
KarenH 25 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM
Iains 24 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM
DMcG 24 Feb 19 - 03:46 AM
KarenH 23 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 23 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 PM
Iains 23 Feb 19 - 05:19 PM
David Carter (UK) 23 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM
Raggytash 23 Feb 19 - 05:04 PM
DMcG 23 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:24 PM

yo = to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:23 PM

Whilst I have no wish yo engage with you, I would suggest that you re-read your last two posts, which are at odds with each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:57 PM

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.
In my own case to describe corbyn as clever would be deceitful.
To describe corbyn as duplicitous would be in the alternative sense of
someone who always lies to get their way.
nowt insincere in any of my posts I can assure you. and Orwell is on another thread. Best kept there otherwise a few get confused


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

"I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition." .............Iains

"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity." ............. George Orwell


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

"Or boxing very clever of course"

I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition.
The great guido has the measure of the man, and some of the accompanying comments pull no punches.
Corbyn is totally unfitted to be a future PM.


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Or boxing very clever of course
Perfect timing to demand a second vote
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

And if May runs true to form via her usual bait-&-switch, and breaks her word at the last minute? She could just be playing My Deal Or No Deal poker, using the nation's ass as a bargaining chip, and wasting still more time. I trust her promises exactly as far as I can throw a 44-ton lorry.

I'm not thinking Remain-vs-Leave. Just Deal-vs-Crashout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM

Great btexit news at last! The pound is climbing against the Euro :-)


Oh. Hang on. Seems to be because it looks like brexit will be delayed. Ah well. I suppose we will just have to wait for the unicorns after all...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:08 AM

Apparently Farage has said if there is another referendum with a choice between May's deal and remain, leavers should boycott it.

Suits me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The fault is squarely on the shoulders of Cameron who would not stand up to the bully boys of the right wing. He was shit scared of losing power so caved in to the right within his own party and in the likes of UKIP. Any politician worth his salt would have demolished the xenophobic little Englander arguments and sent them packing but he played his little populist game and lost big time.

All subsequent moves by May and this useless bunch of tossers has been trying to get out of flushing the country, along with their careers, down the pan while trying to play down the fact that they dropped us in this shit in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

"And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices."

Karen you seem to overlook the fact that this whole debacle was brought about by the UK decision to leave the EU.

The UK Government knew, or should have known, the ramifications of such a decision so if any blame is to be laid it should firmly be at the door of the UK Government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

In another referendum this country will vote remain

The laddie has a hotline to God I suppose, or is it merely whimsy, or perhaps his delusions let him think his bizarre views are sufficient to bully the electorate?
Fact:
Poll 23.2.19
Leave 41%
Remain 45%
Undecided 13%

Level of uncertainty? well don't ask a bookie. They were hopelessly wrong last time around.
I would imagine if we go down the road of another referendum and betray democracy then whoever has the best soundbite prior to polling will win the day.
After all it is a well known fact on this forum that the people are sheep. It is also a well known fact that if you want the sheep to go in a certain direction and your dog is having an off day, then rattling a bucket is all you need to do.
Question: does the leave or remain bucket contain the sheep nuts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

"t will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices".
No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that
As it stands, Brexit has already begun to eat into the economy of Ireland, both north and South - installing a hard border would accelerate that substantially
Britain has deliberately used the DUP to push Brexit through - how on earth do you expect the Irish people to react to that ?
There really is a chance of a reawakening of the old conflicts and once again that can be laid squarely at the doors of Westminster
The British don't seem to have the slightest concept of the continuing effects of colonisation on the victims of that long dead means of dominating entire nations   
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:10 AM

The above is more likely to happen if a labour or liberal government were elected rather than the conservative paRty relying on the support of the DUP


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

kAREN, There is a simple solution, the uk and ireland agree on a referendum which involves the total people of the island of ireland, the referendum is a united ireland northen ireland then gets its wish to remain in europe, the referendum is imo likely to be in favour of a united ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:27 AM

And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices.

I don't buy 'A nasty British big boy did it six hundred years ago and ran away' as an excuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

And you cannot blame 'history' especially some half-baked romanticised notions that once upon a time there was a united country called Ireland or whatever the Celtic word was, for modern day violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:23 AM

Sorry Jim

Your posts were among my sources of information that 'sectarian violence' was likely to be an outcome of a hard Brexit. So I am aware of the risk, and you are wrong to claim I am ignorant of it.

That risk is precisely why, whatever Bonnie did nor did not intend to say, there is a chance of UK troops being deployed in the North of Ireland. Working on the assumption that the UK government has the brains to see that there is a risk of sectarian violence it makes sense for them to have 'military' and other intelligence at work monitoring those likely to instigate such violence. I hope they have.

Let's not say 'sectarian violence', let's say 'murder', car bombings, knee cappings, pub bombings, tarring and feathering and all the rest of it. And protection rackets and so on while we're at it.

And I think one of the main things that brought about a reduction in this was whichever POTUS stamped down on the US sending money to fund the Irish terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:03 PM

But will, hopefully, wreck the Tory party :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

I've been opposed to referendums for at least four decades, but I've decided in extremis that a people's vote is quite literally the only way out of this morass. I'm holding my nose here, but I hope that Labour's tentative moves in that direction bear fruit. In another referendum this country will vote remain, and that is the only solution to this that won't wreck this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

"Hard Brexit is off the table" doesn't mean that Brexit itself is off the table. Only hard Brexit. You know, the one that means leaving without a deal. Remain doesn't figure in the March 12th scenario.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:44 PM

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?
Not until you can give good news about Brexit beyond "We are leaving on 29th" which is your normal response to Raggy's requests!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:37 PM

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM

Schrödinger's Brexit... love it, Donuel.

May delays the meaningful vote. Again. I set my hair on fire (whatever's left of it that hasn't already been incinerated).

The Cooper/Letwin amendment - fingers crossed - passes (getting more likely by the day, especially now that Corbyn's on board).

Meaningful Vote comes on March 12th.

(a) May's deal is approved. Hard Brexit is off the table.
(b) May's deal is defeated. Hard Brexit is effectively off the table.
Because Cooper/Letwin deadline is the 13th.

Britain isn't left alone out in the economic cold.
Ireland doesn't tear itself apart.
Everybody eats.
I reach for the fire extinguisher and douse my hair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

That Ireland will be still part of the EU seems a pretty positive reason to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM

Brexit has an equivalence in quantum mechanics. Right now there is a super imposition of all states/possibilities. We can not know the position or outcome. No matter how radical the outcome it will become orthodoxy in time and you will know the true position you are in.

Psychologically
When this baby Brexit is born it will slowly develop. You will go through a phase where Britain will think Brexit is still a joke like peek a boo game because you have not learned object permanency yet. A true position will emerge whether there are any benefits as self awareness develops.

Some forecasts of disasters or legendary traffic jams in the Chunnel have only helped to make the crises to become more manageable.

As orthodoxy = radicalism + time you will learn your worst fears and best hopes will only be understood after a full year passes.

At this late date I see this baby is coming for good bad or indifferent. imo


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM

" a move towards a united Ireland "
I would much rather this happened for a positive reason rather than an 'any port in the storm one though
The on thing about this is that Brexit has enabled the different groups to unite in contrast to the UK where once united party has shattered itself into smithereens taking the rest of Britain with it.
Having to wait for a plumber and putting up with 60mph fog does have its compensations
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

Corbyn has just said if both May's proposed deal and Labour's are rejected, then Labour willl back a second referendum.

There is some doubt as to what the options would be that it would support, but one step at a time...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Karen, re-read my last post, and read up on some history. I already said that the armed-forces remark was rhetorical. Of COURSE they're not going to. I am not worried about that, so don't misrepresent me.

May already agreed to the backstop (a fallback measure to prevent a closed border in the event of hard Brexit) in her initial deal. Now she want to undo it, effectively going back on the promises she made in her own deal. Ireland isn't the bad guy for needing to protect itself from the risks of internal violence - so it's *not* about the British army, OK?

May now wants to change the deal she herself presented and signed, to appease the hardliners in her party. And the open border was already enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement, a treaty that Britain signed. Taking away the Backstop will be disastrous for Ireland on both sides (and the North is, after all, in the UK). Ireland didn't create this mess. Look at the bigger picture, get the facts straight, and please stop cherry-picking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:01 PM

I think thats right Jim, a move towards a united Ireland is one of the few, perhaps the only, upside of brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"Because it is their insistence on this 'backstop' that seems to be driving the EU position."
Extraordinarily lack of understand at what a hard Brexit would mean to Ireland, including the reopening of sectarian violence
Brexit is already threatening Irish industry (North and South) and costing billions to guard against
As Varadkar said - Brexit is Britain'e decision and it is their responsibility to work it through without constantly passing the buck to those they are laready damaging
One of the best things that could come out of this circus is the removing of partition - at least everyone would save on the future cost of body-bags
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:18 PM

What??? Thats an extraordinary interpretation. It is May's insistence on being outside the customs union which creates the need for the backstop. Hardly reasonable to blame the Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

The Irish Government, then, is in effect, bringing about the hard Brexit that they would appear not to want? Because it is their insistence on this 'backstop' that seems to be driving the EU position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM

OK and thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:30 PM

Karen the only expertise I would claim to have in life is the ability to breathe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:02 PM

You'll find it less confused if you don't quote out of context. I wrote:

In addition to the financial aspects, [a no-deal Brexit] will almost certainly return us - on both sides of the border - to violence and personal endangerment. (And is Britain really prepared to send in armed forces?) No Irish government is going to sit still for that. Why should they put their own citizens at risk?

In other words, the question about armed forces is parenthetical - and rhetorical. The not-sitting-still referred to the dangers of a hard border, in light of the pressure May is putting on Ireland to limit/weaken the Backstop - which is the only thing preventing it, if there's a hard Brexit. A closed border, sooner or later will result in violence here, on both sides of it. Maybe I didn't make it clear (I was also writing in light of my previous post a few messages down.) But a hard Brexit is looking increasingly likely, and the domino effect is all too inevitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

Iains

I leave expertise on wargaming to you. I was just trying to unpick a post that I found a bit confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM

"it's well established that there are plans to use the army post-Brexit in the UK if necessary."

Governments plan for all sorts of contingencies and actually wargame some. The US had plans to invade Canada
to plan for something is not necessarily to mean it will happen.

Corbyn wargamed for a catastrophic drop in the value of the pound, should he become premier. The argument over wheter that was merely precautionary or mandatory I leave to others!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM

"Is Britain prepared to send in armed forces? No Irish government is going to sit still for that."


I very much doubt if 'Britain' is contemplating invading the Irish Republic, the Irish government has no need to sit/stand/worry about that.


Regarding deploying UK troops in Northern Ireland, if the need arises I see no problem, it's well established that there are plans to use the army post-Brexit in the UK if necessary. I sincerely hope that there are military/security service staff in the North of Ireland already as there have been mutterings about nationalist violence and this would seem to be a sensible precaution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

Karen I suspect your dictionary is in severe need of revision!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:46 AM

According to the Sunday Times:

A vicious cabinet war erupted last night over a plot by senior ministers to delay Brexit, as Theresa May looked certain to shelve plans for a Commons vote on her deal this week.

=======

This ability of one person to manipulate Parliament by making promises to assuage rebellions at that time, only to renage on them.later is proving to be a major flaw in our system. Whether or not May does so this time, she has done it in the past. One the Brexiteers will agree with: since the Speaker selects which amendments are called and which are not, that role has a tremendous power vested in one individual.

I suspect whatever happens we might see motions over the next few months trying to give Parliament more powers rather than individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM

For the benefit of American readers, a 'wazzock' is a root vegetable grown mostly in Cornwall and frequently fed to pigs.


A 'pillock' is a sort of medication, in solid form, usually taken with water. As opposed to a capsule or capsulock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

Sorry, I didn’t realise I’d hit Submit... that was not intended as any kind of sarky “response”. (Damn iPad keyboards.) Whoever the biggest is, Ireland is part of a 27-nation economic bloc, and Britain will be left out - I believe struggling - on her own. I cannot tell you how much that thought breaks my heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:19 PM

Ireland is her biggest trading partner. ?????????

The UK is the second major destination for Irish exports 12%
but exports to Ireland represent 5.5$ of UK exports and ranks 10th as a Trading partner of the UK and has generated a trade surplus annually since 1990.
I suspect your phrasing is back to front. This makes a significant difference,


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

The UK is in no position to make things difficult for Irish or continental trucks carrying food to the UK. We need to eat. It would be similar to the Venezualan aid convoy. Except that we can pay if the food can get through. May seems determined to hold a gun to our heads over a no deal brexit, is she prepared to try to starve her population into submission?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:04 PM

Bonnie, my tongue was firmly in my cheek.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM

It gives me no joy to write this.

A most important point, there, so thanks for raising it. Those who oppose the no deal Brexit are being accused of gloating, and no doubt will be even more if there are problems.

I will take no pleasure at in anything that goes wrong. I, and I believe most people on the remain or softest possible Brexit side, want all the people of this country to do well and will take no pleasure in any difficulties that come their way.


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